So why not cut doh against a jodan opponent?

[Charlie]

Thinking out loud. Tell me why I shouldn't do this. You jodan fighters, what do you do to squash doh?

[Geordie Bruiser]

I'm not a Jodan fighter (have enough trouble with Chudan) but I would say striking Do against Jodan would be very difficult.

Very easy for them to strike you men as you come in to attack Do.

[Shazzanzzz]

try migi-doh? i did them before just to try them. Normal dohs don't really work... since they block it with their arms so I try not to hurt them.
I don't think it's that doh is impossible, but kote and tsuki are just a lot easier. I like suriage men... Although then some of them just duck their head forward. What works best for me is an aggresive approach against jodan and score on second hits or immediate hiki wazas because it's more likely their arms are out of place to react compared to a chudan player.

[Charlie]

There is only one jodan fighter I regularly get to fight and I like to get close to him. I have hit him a doh now and then, usually without a very good follow-through as our bodies shift position pretty radically - he is often in some kind of hiki mode as I'm attacking. I've gotten gyaku doh or migi doh on him a couple of times, usually not something a shimpan would call ippon but pretty good. I'm wondering about the feasibility of nuki doh against a jodan fighter, too. Interested in hearing more from a jodan fighter's perspective. I'm sure there are lots of subtle differences in style from jodan to jodan.

[MikeW]

Kaeshi do works if you can make them attack men first but of course the seme and timing need to be correct. Kote is a more common target. Many of us don't get to practice against a jodan player very often unfortunately. I don't pull back a do strike because the aite is blocking with their arms.. because they shouldn't be doing that. If someone blocks with their arms they should get whacked (note, thats different than striking when there is no opening to begin with) ;)

[tango]

Yeah, I don't have much experience against jodan players either...

In general, I agree with Shazz's thoughts...

In theory, I feel like saying something like: "Move forward to entice jodan to strike men... then suriage-men, or nuki-men... or, if jodan doesn't strike when you move forward, try dou or tsuki or kote." ...

Again, just theory.. would be nice to try it out for real, but alas, no jodan players (who really understand jodan) around these parts.

[Jung_Yul]

Yeah, I've got to agree with Shazz as well. At my old dojo, we had a Japanese lady that would come by occasionally to practice with us that had trained during her school years. (I'm STILL sore that's not available in U.S. schools!) She really liked to fight in Jodan, and she could place strikes pretty accurately. Up to this point, I'd taken my sensei pretty seriously when he said Men is the most important strike... that's all I would go for... ever. After being punished by this lady for a while, I decided to change my approach, and try for hidari kote. After 3-4 strikes in a row, she decided she'd rather fight from Chudan.

[hugo]

To me the problem ANYTIME you strike do is that your men is completely exposed, even more so against Jodan. But that being said, we have one jodan player in our dojo and sometimes "do" works quite well against him.
I'd only try it once a match, but often they just don't see it coming.

[tango]

I think there are two kinds of jodan players...

1. the guy who understands the attacking mindset required of jodan, and
2. the guy who doesn't understand the attacking mindset required of jodan.

#2, I suspect, winds up breaking his kamae a lot because he's more worried about protecting tsuki, dou and kote..
#1, I suspect, is just waiting, begging, and pleading for you to start an attack to dou so he can launch katate men.

Against #2, here's what I think are possibilities:
1. feint to kote -- when jodan pulls his arms back, attack dou or tsuki
2. feint to dou --- when jodan drops his arms, attack men
3. feint to men --- when jodan tries ai-men, suriage men, nuki men or kaeshi dou (possibly nuki-dou)
4. feint to tsuki --- if he doesn't move, tsuki or kote... or dou, possibly.

Against #1:
1. feint to men --- you get hit with katate men
2. feint to kote -- you get hit with katate men
3. feint to dou --- you get hit with katate men
4. feight to tsuki --- you get hit with morote kote-men

Just my theoretical thoughts...

[Neil Gendzwill]

The thing to bear in mind is that his men is coming a lot faster than your doh. If he's any good, that is. So just because it looks the most open of any of the targets, doesn't mean it is. You need to do something to give yourself a chance.

[JSchmidt]

Thinking out loud. Tell me why I shouldn't do this. You jodan fighters, what do you do to squash doh?

Nothing. Distance is usually too far.
Bear in mind that jodan will be default be setup for the debana men. If you go for doh, your men will be smacked way before you get there.

[kurisu]

I was taught this the hard way during kakarigeiko. Motodachi would raise up his shinai into jodan, I assumed he wanted me to strike do, and each time I came in he would clobber my men.

Later he explained to me that he could alway tag my men from jodan if I were going straight for do and I should be going for kote or tsuki instead. Now years later, I do the same with my kohai and encourage them to use tsuki (no matter what rank they are).

[ShinKenshi]

My sensei sometimes uses jodan and when he does I have just about no hope of hitting anything. I've tried going for his kote, no dice. Kaeshi do? Not a chance since he's so damn fast, even if I catch his timing. My tsuki isn't anywhere near good enough that I'd even consider using it on anybody as anything other than a feint. Alternatively I have had keiko with someone who prefers to use jodan all the time but, for some reason, doesn't move. He'll just stand there not doing anything. I can hit his kote fairly often if I move towards his left and then strike when his vision is blocked by his kote.

Personally I feel that any waza against jodan is valid provided that you can catch their timing and are fast enough to react to it.

[bobdonny]

My way of thinking about this is a reflection of where I am now (so I should prob stop now....)

The only way you can hit correctly a dou is to take control. If your opponent is in chudan you need to take control of centre (usually by making him open to defend or attack). This becomes easy as the reaction is visible, but it only works if you can "force" a reaction from your opponent. In jodan the reaction is harder to see if possible at all!

In jodan, his dou is exposed but that does not mean there is an opportuinity, I see this the same as chudan, you need to make an opportuinty to strike dou against a jodan player. For me its a lot harder to do.

Against chudan you can seme to the left eye or push down on her shinai etc the reaction is visible and you strike. With jodan its a lot harder to see a reaction and therefore a lot harder to judge when to strike.

Other than that I can also attack do as they are finishing / starting a strike, or when they are assuming jodan or even kaeshi do, but doing that wont help you understand what is necessary to create a dou opening against a Jodan player.

Its a lot easier to take an educated chance against tsuki / kote / men and if you fail you can always try to block etc!

Good post Charlie!

[Charlie]

Thanks, Bob! Couple of thoughts, guys.


The thing to bear in mind is that his men is coming a lot faster than your doh. If he's any good, that is. So just because it looks the most open of any of the targets, doesn't mean it is. You need to do something to give yourself a chance.

Can you expand? By this you mean set up by some means - a feint, seme, closing the distance.


Nothing. Distance is usually too far. Bear in mind that jodan will be default be setup for the debana men. If you go for doh, your men will be smacked way before you get there.

This bears examining. J, it's been my limited experience against jodan fighters that I can crowd them and move close to them. But this is also based on personal preference. I pressure the left eye, move side to side, shift from seigan to kasumi no kamae, pressure in close, and usually attack men, tsuki, or either kote. This, Neil, is how I have set up doh in the past. The guy I normally fight in this scenario (who may be reading this - I'm after you, man!) - is pretty adept at moving side to side, moving back, hiki waza. For example, I press, go for kote, he moves his hands and hiki men going back and to the side.


Personally I feel that any waza against jodan is valid provided that you can catch their timing and are fast enough to react to it.

This is my feeling, but I'm thinking you have to set this up kinda like tango and Bob were saying and I think Neil is saying.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Can you expand? By this you mean set up by some means - a feint, seme, closing the distance.Yes. I have to qualify this by saying I don't have a whole lot of experience playing people in jodan. My thoughts are more from the side of playing jodan, and not very good at it either. But to get in on someone in jodan, my experience is that best shot is to get them moving so you can set up some kind of oji-waza, although you can make degote or debana-men work too. The height/power/speed advantage means going in guns-a-blazing is a likely fail.

[JSchmidt]

This bears examining. J, it's been my limited experience against jodan fighters that I can crowd them and move close to them. But this is also based on personal preference. I pressure the left eye, move side to side, shift from seigan to kasumi no kamae, pressure in close, and usually attack men, tsuki, or either kote.


If I let an opponent in close, I'm basically not doing my job properly. (So, usually teachers will casually wander into that distance:))




For example, I press, go for kote, he moves his hands and hiki men going back and to the side.

This is classic kote-nuki-men. TBH, I find my peers too fast and/or they will cover up quickly after missing or dodge into close distance.



This is my feeling, but I'm thinking you have to set this up kinda like tango and Bob were saying and I think Neil is saying.

You have to set it up like against chudan. Use pressure and footwork to create the opportunity. Feinting will only work if the jodan player believes in the feints, If he's ready for the debana, then you're screwed.

[Charlie]

Appreciate the feedback, guys.

So, J. Do you spend a lot of time backing up? I mean, when you go to jodan out of sonkyo, the first thing you do is step forward, switching your feet. Already, the opponent is moving closer.

BTW, I dodge when I miss a kote or the like, too, and sometimes get a shinai across the back for my trouble! Just part of the process, I think.

[Charlie]

Damn, you guys seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCfxcF9XTAw

[Kagerou]

Damn, you guys seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCfxcF9XTAw


Is it just me or does it seem like in every match the jodan player dominates the first half but the tables turn in the second half?

[JSchmidt]

Appreciate the feedback, guys.

So, J. Do you spend a lot of time backing up? I mean, when you go to jodan out of sonkyo, the first thing you do is step forward, switching your feet. Already, the opponent is moving closer.

On a shiai-jo, the opponent still has to take a rather large step forward in order to be 'too close'.
95% of the time when I step forward into jodan from sonkyo, the opponent steps back or at the very least takes a more protective stance, so it's usually not an issue. Some will be more aggressive and move forward, but remember, by doing so, they are also exposing themselves.
When I'm in kamae, I officially* never step back. I may take an extra step back after separating from tsubazeria in order to have a bit more space to work with, but once I've taken jodan, I try to always move forward.
Occasionally, I will probe with front foot only and move it back if I can find any reason for moving forwards.

What usually happens when both sides actively steps forward, is that both end up in tsubazeria without anything happening.

I think unless you got a kamae with very strong presence and pressure, you should avoid stepping back from jodan. I would like to be able to 'reset' the distance from time to time, but with the current state of my jodan, it merely means giving the opponent the impression that I'm retreating and I cannot currently afford that. If that means being a bit dogmatic about it, so be it :)

Jakob

[Lloromannic]

As others have said. A good jodan player will not let you be in range of a Do, and even if you do slip by, unless they are caugh completely flat footed, a men strike, even if it doesn't connect, will close the distance, in addition, the katate men movement places the right arm directly in the path your Do would follow.
As yo what I do when an opponent attempts Do?



Katate men
Morote men
step forward
step backwards
step back with morote men
tai atari
Nothing, they probably misjudged the distance and it will be one nice swing.

[turboyoshi]

Is it just me or does it seem like in every match the jodan player dominates the first half but the tables turn in the second half?

That would imply to me that probably, the initial dominance was caused by the opponent not feeling comfortable dealing with jodan, and once he got comfortable, the jodan player wasn't good enough to maintain his dominance.

sean

[Kagerou]

That would imply to me that probably, the initial dominance was caused by the opponent not feeling comfortable dealing with jodan, and once he got comfortable, the jodan player wasn't good enough to maintain his dominance.

sean

or that their stamina gets used up faster....don't know:confused:

[ii_kangae]

Total do hits in the video - 0.

Not saying its a bad approach to try and hit it...but the best players don't bother.

...by the way, I've tried and failed :)

[Charlie]

There's a kaeshi doh in the video and late what looks like an attempted gyaku doh that hits the person on the arm instead.

Appreciate the feedback, guys. Still chewing on this, especially what J and LLoro are saying.

[Gideon]

Love the question. Nothing to add really, but conceptually, it seems like kaeshi doh would use the the jodan practitioner's default of debana men against them. That kaeshi hidari doh from the video is at 1:45 (and there's an unfortunate camera angle change in the middle of the strike).

Easier said than done I'm sure.

By the way, I loved the setup for the kote at 3:14. Absolute balls.

*goes back to the shallow end*

[Charlie]

Your insights are appreciated, man!