Hansoku

[Toecutter]

An interesting point was brought up yesterday in practice as everyone is preparing for the upcoming tournament. They were going over scoring and what constitutes Hansoku. The issue came about after the match I played and we were all talking about it. What essentially happened is that during taiatari if neither one of use would do hiki waza I would initiate putting my shinai on the opponents men, right shoulder or even his mune while holding center, then we would both step back slowly. This I was told is Hansoku that you are not allowed to keep your shinai resting on the men or right shoulder, and it's even worse if it’s on the left shoulder. One of the reasons being it's considered stalling, why "rest" when you should be trying find an opening or strike. I've never seen this called but would be interested if anyone else has any ideas on it.

[ShinKenshi]

If that's hansoku then I'm toast! I was under the impression that if you want to get out of tsubazeriai without using hiki-waza you could do something like that as it keeps pressure on your opponent. Don't we see this happening in a lot of the AJKC and high school tournament vids availble on youtube?

[Toecutter]

If that's hansoku then I'm toast! I was under the impression that if you want to get out of tsubazeriai without using hiki-waza you could do something like that as it keeps pressure on your opponent.
That was my impression also, I'm wondering if it's one of those rules that's on the books but not called or loosely enforced by the shinpan? I usually get clubbed if I do not do the above or a hiki waza and my hiki waza is marginal at best so I usually opt for holding center especially when playing higher ups.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There are quite a few situations about tsubazeriai that are not often called. Shinai on the shoulder is a grey area. If it touches briefly as part of the usual jockeying around, no problem. Sometimes people will put it into the corner of the neck and shoulder and use it to push the aite to the side to make an opening. You can get called on that if you're obvious about it. Leaving it steadily on the shoulder is also a penalty.

[MikeW]

Laying your shinai deliberately on the shoulder of your aite has always been hansoku as far as I have been taught.

[ShinKenshi]

There are quite a few situations about tsubazeriai that are not often called. Shinai on the shoulder is a grey area. If it touches briefly as part of the usual jockeying around, no problem. Sometimes people will put it into the corner of the neck and shoulder and use it to push the aite to the side to make an opening. You can get called on that if you're obvious about it. Leaving it steadily on the shoulder is also a penalty.Thank you for clearing that up, Neil! Just one question though. What would be the recommended way of getting out of tsubazeriai safely? Would it be fine if I kept my shinai leaning towards my opponent such that it was over their shoulder but not on it and then carefully back off until we both seem to agree to reset? Just a tad confused now :confused2.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The usual way is to back out maintaining shinai contact.

[Toecutter]

The usual way is to back out maintaining shinai contact.
Is laying the shinai on the kote also hansoku? The reason I ask is usually my mindset for having my shinai touch the other person is that as long is it's touching a valid point area they can not score. So I like to lay the shinai across the shoulder briefly then drop down to mune (not a point area but to give them a slight push back) or kote, and from there slowly back away or go for a close in waza. Generally if I try to back out with shinai contact I get it handed to me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Is laying the shinai on the kote also hansoku?No.

[snip] then drop down to mune (not a point area but to give them a slight push back)That's hansoku. You can have your kensen on the mune, but if you try to create distance by pushing them back, hansoku.

[nonamehandle]

No.
That's hansoku. You can have your kensen on the mune, but if you try to create distance by pushing them back, hansoku.

hey Neil,

with my kensen on the opponent's mune, when i see any movement that is not backwards, including any downward movement of the hands or shinai (presumably to knock my kensen away) i give them a good tsuki push; but i guess this is not hansoku? what exactly are the rules in this situation? i don't think i've ever had heard told to me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you are just standing there in very close maai with your kensen on their mune and you shove them away, it should be hansoku. Of course, whether it's called or not is another matter. We were just doing some shimpan training at the Winnipeg seminar and asked the players to purposely get hansoku. I was laughing on the sidelines at all the ridiculous things they were doing that the judges made no call on. Most people only know about out of bounds and dropped shinai.

[hugo]

This sounds alot like the difference between forcing someone to step out of bounds and pushing/shoving someone out of bounds.

It seems as though the question is "whether or not the act is disrespectful to the opponent?" Resting your shinai (a stand-in for a live blade) on the opponent's body or constantly pressing against them with it would seem disrespectful. Whereas, say, stopping a men with a good thrust to the tanden is not (unless you leave it there).

[Halcyon]

Whereas, say, stopping a men with a good thrust to the tanden is not (unless you leave it there).
Yikes! I hope you are not regularly on either the giving end or receiving end of a "good thrust to the tanden." Surely you mean mune and not tanden?

[Toshiro Mifune]

The shinai over the shoulder is not always good especially if somebody is good at hitting kote from the side or underneath. Not all the time but those kote do score especially if the person is really good at kote. Kendo DVD Collection Vol 3 or Vol 4 by Hidekatsu Inoue has a several ways to back out, attack or counter attack from tsubazeriai. But keeping close shinai contact can be dangerous too. I think it was the 52 AJKC a semifinal match between Chikamoto and Harada. They were in tsubazeriai, agreed to back up and were keeping close contact with the shinai. Harada quickly does maki and strikes Chikamoto's men. Some people will also try doing something similar but harai sometimes really close to your right hand. Not necessarily to strike kote but to create a better opening. I think it was more the reciever's drastic posture change from the of shock trying to recover/defend that made these points look more devasting and stay in my mind.

[Halcyon]

They were in tsubazeriai, agreed to back up and were keeping close contact with the shinai.
"Agreed to back up" -- hahaha! Oldest trick in the book.

[Inner_Silence]

If that's hansoku then I'm toast! I was under the impression that if you want to get out of tsubazeriai without using hiki-waza you could do something like that as it keeps pressure on your opponent. Don't we see this happening in a lot of the AJKC and high school tournament vids availble on youtube?

...if you are not like a million dan, leaving tsubazeriai without using hiki waza in a shiai is SUICIDE, whoever in dan level that respects himself would score an ippon for doing that, I personally like doing maki waza and hitting whatever after the other guys shinai hits the floor.

anyway, as far as I know, things are as Neil say, Ive seen people getting hansoku while resting his shinai in his opponents shoulder, if it is just a couple of seconds its ok, but if you do it longer than that is definitely hansoku!

[ShinKenshi]

...if you are not like a million dan, leaving tsubazeriai without using hiki waza in a shiai is SUICIDE, whoever in dan level that respects himself would score an ippon for doing that, I personally like doing maki waza and hitting whatever after the other guys shinai hits the floor.I never said I never do hiki waza from tsubazeriai. I occasionally will run into someone who I can't find an openning in and sometimes my only available option is to try to back off and reset. I also didn't mean just leaving my shinai on my opponent's shoulder for very long, just a second or so but I think I'll change my habits now. My sensei will occasionally do this during jigeiko but mostly when he wants us to spend the time working on seme instead.

[Inner_Silence]

I never said I never do hiki waza from tsubazeriai. I occasionally will run into someone who I can't find an openning in and sometimes my only available option is to try to back off and reset. I also didn't mean just leaving my shinai on my opponent's shoulder for very long, just a second or so but I think I'll change my habits now. My sensei will occasionally do this during jigeiko but mostly when he wants us to spend the time working on seme instead.

you are right in that, Ive seen senseis doing that too, but sensei is sensei and we are kohai

[Attica]

Someone help me out with my mis-understanding of this.

I have also understood that you are not supposed to rest your shinai on the shoulder of your opponent while dis-engaging. I have been told this during training and I know of no one at our dojo who does so.

However, while watching matches on DVD from the World Kendo Championship it appears to be common.

What don't I understand?

[Halcyon]

What don't I understand?
Short answer: Don't do it.

Longer answer: It's a matter of degree. As long as you don't rest your shinai on your opponent's shoulder and drag it across as you disengage, you might be able to get away with it.

[Inner_Silence]

Someone help me out with my mis-understanding of this.

I have also understood that you are not supposed to rest your shinai on the shoulder of your opponent while dis-engaging. I have been told this during training and I know of no one at our dojo who does so.

However, while watching matches on DVD from the World Kendo Championship it appears to be common.

What don't I understand?




ok

according to the official rule book in the ZNKR, resting the shinai in your opponents shoulder IS HANSOKU, but non oficially you can do it for a couple of seconds and its ok. in some way its the same that if you push around your oponent hard trying hard throw him by force outside the shiaijo is also a hansoku but its ok to give your oponent a "little push" (that may look like a hard taiatari) to make him cross the line... you see what Im heading? hansoku or other personal faults in whatever sport like soccer are not absolute things, it depends on the circumstances and its up to the referees or in this case the shimpan to have enough common sense to realize if it was an intentional fault or just part of the game.

[JSchmidt]

The idea behind it,as I understand it, is that you are not supposed to restrain the opponents ability to cut.
You can deny opportunity, but you cannot lock his shinai/arms/etc, which you will effectively be doing if you press down with your shinai on the opponents shouider.

[nonamehandle]

lot of people do it in the highest levels of competition here in korea and in japan.
if the referees start to enforce the rules, then it will eventually go away.

i have seen hansoku being given in korea for it, but not for "resting shinai on shoulder" but for delay of game.

[Charles Lockhar]

Hmm, I think this "resting the shinai on the opponents shoulder" thing makes me pseudo-stupid. I've done that lots of times, and had it done to me lots of times. So suddenly I've got to wonder what the heck was going on, and why wasn't I corrected until very recently (the first I ever heard of it being hansoku was two weeks ago). Methinks that possibly some people were hoping I'd figure it out on my own, and possibly hinting in that direction, but that it never took hold. Hmmm.

There are still a lot of rules I don't get in this.


The idea behind it,as I understand it, is that you are not supposed to restrain the opponents ability to cut.
You can deny opportunity, but you cannot lock his shinai/arms/etc, which you will effectively be doing if you press down with your shinai on the opponents shouider.

So I'm guessing this goes for having the shinai across the opponents kote in chudan as well?

-Charles

[JSchmidt]

So I'm guessing this goes for having the shinai across the opponents kote in chudan as well?

-Charles

(<<Disclaimer>>)As I understand it, it only refers to tsubazeria.

In general, briefly having your shinai on the opponents shoulder whilst separating with not be penalized, but if you are 'actively' holding it there, with pressure down on the shoulder, you will/should be.

I can't remember when/where I learned this, so I may be talking nonsense.

[hugo]

Yikes! I hope you are not regularly on either the giving end or receiving end of a "good thrust to the tanden." Surely you mean mune and not tanden?

Perhaps I used the wrong word. It was my understanding that you could either stop the opponent at the mune or a bit lower on the do as well.

[nonamehandle]

"Agreed to back up" -- hahaha! Oldest trick in the book.

yeah :) i remember fighting this young buck and finding ourselves in tsubaZ. we both nodded and i started to back away and then a booming hiki-men from him. i got a bit pissed and chased him all around the court afterwards...but i learned a valuable lesson from that experience. always have "presence of mind" 存心 even when you have both agreed to back up.

[nonamehandle]

Perhaps I used the wrong word. It was my understanding that you could either stop the opponent at the mune or a bit lower on the do as well.

i understand tanden to be little bit below the belly button area. on a bogu, that would correspond to the tare and the zekken area. people with gedan-esque kamae sometimes do this. but if i get tsukied in the tanden area more than 2-3 times, i always give them good sharp tsuki until they stop or at least think twice about doing it.

i usually direct my kensen to the mune or to tsuki-dare. the times that i have had my kensen on the opponent's tanden or the area right below the mune (the slippery do part) is when i have been caught slightly unaware or i have judged the maai incorrectly.

[JoonShik]

Another thing about tsubazeriai, I've noticed a lot of shinpan are being more strict on how long you're in tsubazeriai. I believe it is 10 sec. then they will call wakarei, or they'll just give both sides hansoku.



Also on the note of pushing (from experience at the US Championship), be careful about how hard you push. I gave a bit of a rough push to make the guy go over the line, and the shinpan called go-gi. Luckily, it was ruled out, and my opponent got the hansoku, but that just shows you to be aware of your limit.

[Toecutter]

The idea behind it,as I understand it, is that you are not supposed to restrain the opponents ability to cut.

I had a little clarification on this last night, apparently it is equated to being pushed out and is a grey area, but the rule exists for exactly the reason quoted above. If you lay your shinai on the aites shoulder and push down, thus holding them there that is hansoku, but if you lay your shinai on the shoulder briefly then this is the grey area. Also I had it clarified that laying the shinai on the kote when backing up is not hansoku.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Another thing about tsubazeriai, I've noticed a lot of shinpan are being more strict on how long you're in tsubazeriai. I believe it is 10 sec. then they will call wakarei, or they'll just give both sides hansoku.There's no set time limit. If people are resting in tsubazeriai, then it should be hansoku. If they are actively trying to make something happen but just not seeing a chance, then wakari. Typically the time waited by shimpan is longer the second time around.

[Bokushingu]

I lost a match to hansoku in tsubazerai last year. My hands were too high. they called warning, but I couldn't hear what the head simpan was saying. my opponent jammed me up again to keep me from throwing my signature men. I got called hansoku.
match went into encho. he jammed me up again, went into tsubazarei couldn't get away from him & i got called the 2nd Hansoku. Match over.

after the match, one of the shimpan explained that my hands were too high that my fist were on the edge of his shinai which meant that my hands would have been sliced off it were a sword.