It's Obama!

[ben]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/us/politics/05elect.html?hp

It's a truism but I really believe this marks the beginning of a new era in American, and World politics.

Congrats to our USAican brothers and sisters. You've shown imagination and courage in this choice. Time to celebrate!

b

[Anime12478]

The world has seemed to be on edge with the whole election thing. I'm just glad we actually came through with this.

[Maku-san]

Our year of Hell is over. :happy:

Welcome to our eight years of Armageddon. :evil:

[bobdonny]

World politics.

????? really?

[Bokushingu]

McCain really showed alot of class. Most candidates don't act so honerably.

[The great I AM]

????? really?So you don't think Obama's appointment will really effect world politics?

[JCM]

IMO is good news not because of what everyone is talking about (skin colour) but because the American public has been brave in their choice (change vs. status quo). If you don't dare you don't win as they say.

I hope this means a change in foreign policy and economic stability, I think that for the first time in quite a while (perhaps since Roosevelt or Kennedy) a vision of the future has captured the public imagination, again, I am not talking about race, but change.

Two things I wonder about:


Will Obama be allowed to thrive or will he receive the same treatment as Clinton?

I remember watching the documentary about his aid, and frankly, I thought he was above everything, a politician (I know it's obvious, but you know what I mean). What will he be like?


I hope we start seeing positive changes soon, the world needs it

[Peter West]

all the above assumes he stays alive long enough to do the job.

[Nanbanjin]

all the above assumes he stays alive long enough to do the job.
Most of the above is celebrating Americans having the good manners to do something that the rest of the world is really happy about. Obama could have a heart attack tomorrow and the fact of the choice would not change.

And besides; it's a grim chap who faces the world assuming impending death. Here, have a smiley on me :)

[bobdonny]

So you don't think Obama's appointment will really effect world politics?

It will have an effect, every thing has an effect, but I'm not sure it marks a "new era" in world politics.

YMMV

[Peter West]

Most of the above is celebrating Americans having the good manners to do something that the rest of the world is really happy about. Obama could have a heart attack tomorrow and the fact of the choice would not change.

And besides; it's a grim chap who faces the world assuming impending death. Here, have a smiley on me :)

I do celebrate with the US, this potentially has good consequences for the rest of the world. However there are many people in the US who will not be happy with a black or a muslim president...

[ghostdancer]

Most of the above is celebrating Americans having the good manners to do something that the rest of the world is really happy about. Obama could have a heart attack tomorrow and the fact of the choice would not change.

And besides; it's a grim chap who faces the world assuming impending death. Here, have a smiley on me :)

Personally i think Peters just being a realist, and its more likely to be lead poisoning rather than anything anything natural

to many loons in the world whose world view does not fit in with ............well you get the idea

[bobdonny]

However there are many people in the US who will not be happy with a black or a muslim president... Well at least they seem to be a minority.

[Peter West]

Well at least they seem to be a minority.

That is perhaps something to celebrate, but all terrorists are in a minority if you pick a large enough context. It only takes one. After all the president himself is a minority of one, whatever context you consider.

[Hisham]

First of all congrats to our american friends.

However there are many people in the US who will not be happy with a black or a muslim president...

As far as i know his father is/was muslim not himself.

[Bokushingu]

I don't think people care about his ethnicity--The voting proved that. And I think the reason is that he never really played the race card...If anything he's been a little tough & demanding on American Blacks.

Lets just hope he can clean up our Foreign Policy & international relationships.

[H.Sandsleth]

Congratulations!

Obama will certainly have a lot of difficult tasks in front of him..

[Nanbanjin]

Personally i think Peters just being a realist, and its more likely to be lead poisoning rather than anything anything natural

to many loons in the world whose world view does not fit in with ............well you get the idea

You guys are not being very zen.

Nobody will assassinate Barack Obama. Relax. He will bring good into the world.
They the people have spoken. I the goat am listening.

[Jung_Yul]

That is perhaps something to celebrate, but all terrorists are in a minority if you pick a large enough context. It only takes one. After all the president himself is a minority of one, whatever context you consider.

Indeed, and the last time I heard anything about it on the news, there had been two assassination attempts discovered and prevented in only 3 months' time... and that was when he was only a presidential candidate. Now that the election has been decided, I fear that we may see the other side of America's coin, so to speak. I hope and pray that I'm wrong, but it would be terribly naive to imagine that the American public, or any sufficiently large group of people for that matter, doesn't have a dark side. Further consider what happened back then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
Rodney King was brutally beaten, but he did survive. If America's first African-American president is killed, what does anyone think will happen THEN? :ponder:

[Hisham]

America's first African-American president :ponder:

He is african-european-american, many seem to forget his mom's side.

[xvikingx]

I do celebrate with the US, this potentially has good consequences for the rest of the world. However there are many people in the US who will not be happy with a black or a muslim president...
Wow. You've got us all figured out.
Why hasn't anybody put you in charge yet? Seem the logical thing to do.

[Knicky]

Kennedy was pretty face that did very little. Hope Obama will be a whole lot different than Kennedy.

They're both good (Kennedy in past tense) handsome inspirational speakers but hopefully thats where the similarities will end. Assassination included.

[babayaga]

However there are many people in the US who will not be happy with a black or a muslim president...


As far as i know his father is/was muslim not himself.

*shakes head* Isn't it amazing how far malicious rumors can spread?

Barack Obama is not Muslim. He's Christian. Not that religion matters in regards to his ability to do the job, but let's get our facts straight.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

[atgm]

It's pretty anticlimactic for me. I mean, even though he's President-elect, we still have a president, and it's not Obama. It'll be a while.

[ben]

Kennedy was pretty face that did very little. Hope Obama will be a whole lot different than Kennedy.

They're both good (Kennedy in past tense) handsome inspirational speakers but hopefully thats where the similarities will end. Assassination included.

I wouldn't underestimate the value of inspiration.

b

[bobdonny]

As far as i know his father is/was muslim not himself.


Barack Obama is not Muslim. He's Christian.


He is african-european-american, many seem to forget his mom's side.

Like all people of importance; they claim to have an Irish Background. In this case its his great great great grandfather!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=EADUQWKoVek

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Go on the Irish!!

[ben]

This photo (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5618/jessexm4.jpg) explains for me the importance of Obama's win.

b

[Peter West]

I think he'll make a good President as long as he is strong enough not to be controlled by more experienced politicians, and stays well protected against the darker side of the US who would seek to bypass democratic process and remove him.

[Sasayaki]

This photo (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5618/jessexm4.jpg) explains for me the importance of Obama's win.

b

Wonderful photo to share

[Jung_Yul]

He is african-european-american, many seem to forget his mom's side.

You're right that most do forget... I didn't, but it gets so tiring repeating the pedigree. Besides, I personally feel that most people, despite what they'd tell you, only voted based on racial and gender reasoning, so no one WANTS to focus on his mother's side.

[Jung_Yul]

*shakes head* Isn't it amazing how far malicious rumors can spread?

Barack Obama is not Muslim. He's Christian. Not that religion matters in regards to his ability to do the job, but let's get our facts straight.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Absolutely! Personally it embarrasses me to no end that in the country that is supposed to have religious freedom (which should include the full gambit - Christianity in all its various denominations, Islam, Judaism, Wiccan, Buddhism, Satanism, etc.) we waste valuable energy and time worrying about the religion of someone running for office, and continuing ridiculous rumors that have been debunked. I feel we should focus on how they do the job in this world, not which version of the afterlife they subscribe to, and hope to attain.

[JoDuncan]

This clip right HERE (http://www.funnyordie.co.uk/videos/df8d1f5b7d/hayden-panettiere-psa-vote-for-mccain-from-hayden-panettiere) made me giggle.


Featuring the lovely Claire from Heroes.

[Big One]

Whoever brought race and religious into this election has a fu..ing agenda. Why can we spell it out that, we elected a baby to do a man job?

Nobody can really say how he is going to do his plan because he never said anything about that.

I guess, his crucial point was trying to put Mc Cain and Bush into same group.

Now I believe that he wakes up today in cold sweat, swearing, what the f... I am going to do now.

[Karaken]

It will have an effect, every thing has an effect, but I'm not sure it marks a "new era" in world politics.

YMMV If you remember what BUSH has done, you might change your mind.

[bobdonny]

If you remember what BUSH has done, you might change your mind.

Not sure I would, Bush didn't define the world view by his actions, rather the world allowed him. There is a difference.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The US will do the right thing, given enough motivation. (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nation_finally_shitty_enough_to)

[Karaken]

Not sure I would, Bush didn't define the world view by his actions, rather the world allowed him. There is a difference.

I don't think we are talking about someone's action/inaction/tolerance. We are merely anticipating a new "era" where everyone is acting differently caused by the circumstances. At least that's what many in and out side of USA are saying. "It'll be a different world" 1. w/o Bush 2. w Obama

[satsumaruma]

It's a truism but I really believe this marks the beginning of a new era in American, and World politics.

Congrats to our USAican brothers and sisters. You've shown imagination and courage in this choice. Time to celebrate!

b

I'm not sure it will begin a new era in world politics, there are a hell of a lot of factors that affect World Politics.


The world has seemed to be on edge with the whole election thing. I'm just glad we actually came through with this.

If by World you mean USA you are probably right but I can assure I really don't mind who won and certainly no one I know was "on edge" about it. From what I gather about US political system it is even 'narrower' than the one here in the UK - by Narrower I mean the differences between the two main political parties.


So you don't think Obama's appointment will really effect world politics?

It is too hard to say as yet. When he gets into office and we see what he does (rather than what he has said he will do - and lets be honest here, he has been quite ambiguous thus far)


all the above assumes he stays alive long enough to do the job.

Ooooh, What have you got planned?:eek:


That is perhaps something to celebrate, but all terrorists are in a minority if you pick a large enough context. It only takes one. After all the president himself is a minority of one, whatever context you consider.

Someone here alleged he was Muslim, but I had read he is actually Christian. had he been Muslim this may or may not have reduced his chances of being a terrorist target. This based upon the premise that most active terrorists at the moment claim to have an Islamic cause (or at least the ones who threaten the 'West').

I think the fact he is black will be a deciding factor on whether or not there is a concerted effort to take his life. Perhaps some White Supremacy group might want to make a name for themselves. We shall see.


He is african-european-american, many seem to forget his mom's side.

i have never understood many American's need to prefix their nationality with another nationality - Irish-American, Scottish-American, Italian-American, Japanese-American, Native-American.
What is wrong with just being American. Seemed like a perfectly good place when I visited it and no reason why someone should not be proud to say they came from there. I guess it is an historic thing that has never stopped.

I might give it a go. Hi, my name's Lee and I'm a Celtic-Roman-Angle-Saxon-Dane- Norman- English-Yorkshireman.



phew

[bullet08]

for the first time in my life i voted. not because i believed in any of this crap, but because i didn't care for someone who is willing to cut tie with people he has been running with for last 20 yrs just to get himself into an office. but i guess it's now over and done with. i'll support him till he is out of the office as i have supported bush for last 8 yrs. after all, now he is the president elected.

pete

[Kenzan]

To all the McCain supporters:

QQ, Bitches.
You lost.

BOO-YAaa!

It's a great day for America, and for the world.

Out with intolerance, retarded, exclusionary, illogical thinking, "Good Ol boy Politics" and unbridled, unchecked Corporate greed and Federal fascism.

A ray of hope has just shone through the darkness.

[misterkurukuru]

Hi, my name's Lee and I'm a Celtic-Roman-Angle-Saxon-Dane- Norman- English-Yorkshireman.

What? your white- eye talian-white-white-white-white and un-athletic?

I am not disagreeing with your politics

but come on man,

don't be a bitch

[Shazzanzzz]

Obama is a great inspiration to all. An immigrant african father, a southern surburban-white mother, had an asian step-father and step-sister, lived all over the world from indonesia to hawaii to los angeles to nyc to boston to chicago. He is what 21st century America is. A multi-cultured entity that have many different backgrounds and experiences. USA is NOT a country where only the middle to old aged white americans matter anymore. What you saw in this election was a transformation. Where young voters matter and where minorities matter. US is still changing. In a few decades, white-americans will become one of the major ethnic groups instead of the majority. I think what the young people and the lower-class people found out this election was that they do have a voice. I think this election have forever changed the US politics and even american culture.

[Jung_Yul]

i have never understood many American's need to prefix their nationality with another nationality - Irish-American, Scottish-American, Italian-American, Japanese-American, Native-American.
What is wrong with just being American. Seemed like a perfectly good place when I visited it and no reason why someone should not be proud to say they came from there. I guess it is an historic thing that has never stopped.

I might give it a go. Hi, my name's Lee and I'm a Celtic-Roman-Angle-Saxon-Dane- Norman- English-Yorkshireman.



phew

Probably because most Americans are so rainwashed by Political Correctness that they can't handle just telling it like it is. Further, you never know when some group will be offended by what you say, no matter what you say, and attempt to sue you for "mental anguish" over some perceived slight. I know that in my own earlier posting I used the term "African-American," and I did so with great annoyance at the fact that there really aren't any less inane sounding, yet non-offensive alternatives. Just because I don't agree with the use of hyphenated terms, doesn't mean I AGREE with being openly insulting and hostile. ;)

For instance, when I was in the military, we used to have large, hinged charts that would be displayed to give a class, called "flip charts." The name was changed to "TURN charts" out of a perceived slight to individuals of Asian descent. (To my knowledge, no one ACTUALLY made any complaints, and a Vietnamese friend of mine in my old unit rolled his eyes when we were told of this and said "Oh, gimme a break.") While I was initially incredulous over the change, I put myself in the place of such a person, and realized I might not appreciate the possible offense. Further, the new name had no more syllables, and therefore, wasn't any more or less difficult to say. Similarly, "black boards" became "chalk boards," which I had basically identical reactions to. The one I couldn't stand was when "white boards" became "dry erase boards." As I am a white boy, I can say with certainty that I was never personally offended by the term "white board," and really felt that this change was Political Correctness extending to the point of having gone berzerk. I realize that to change the first two, and not the third would have, itself been a form of discrimination. (I also realize that I'm waaayyy off topic for this thread, so please forgive me.) I guess my feeling is that if we are only changing and complicating what we call things, or how we refer to them, only out of fear that we might someday offend one person somewhere, we are simply confusing things and wasting time and energy that could be put toward solving problems with some actual substance.

[Shazzanzzz]

i have never understood many American's need to prefix their nationality with another nationality - Irish-American, Scottish-American, Italian-American, Japanese-American, Native-American.
What is wrong with just being American. Seemed like a perfectly good place when I visited it and no reason why someone should not be proud to say they came from there. I guess it is an historic thing that has never stopped.


cuz... US is a country made of immigrants? Who are just 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.
And i guess because we don't have ONE ethnic culture to take pride in, we take pride in our multi-culturalness haha. we have like latino-american history month, black-history month, asian-american histroy month etc....

[bobdonny]

At least that's what many in and out side of USA are saying. "It'll be a different world" 1. w/o Bush 2. w Obama

Not where I live buddy, it will have very little impact. :)


Out with intolerance, retarded, exclusionary, illogical thinking, "Good Ol boy Politics" and unbridled, unchecked Corporate greed and Federal fascism.


Hehe, whilst I doubt they will actually go out :) If he can do that he should run for pope next....

[Kenzan]

If he can do that he should run for pope next....

I'm think I'm going to take the high road here, and not take the bait.

:D

[bobdonny]

I'm think I'm going to take the high road here, and not take the bait.

:DAn inspiration to us all :cool2:

[Kenzan]

An inspiration to us all :cool2:

So's a sober Irishman.


BAM!


LOL

:D

[jjcruiser]

I read this thread with interest because I'm always curious how we're perceived internationally.

I admit, I'm a little surprised at how opinionated some of the non-Americans are about American politics while not being very well informed about how American politics works and why Obama was elected. I certainly don't claim to understand GBR politics or any other countries' and would be cautious in making sweeping generalizations about what the result of a GBR election meant for that country or the world.

In fact, the thing I find non-Americans misinterpreting the most about American politics is the religious angle. While in the federal Constitution Congress is told that it "shall not make any law respecting an establishment of religion nor restricting the free exercise thereof", this doesn't mean that Americans now, or have ever, indelibly separate their religion from their politics. We have very strongly held religious views in some instances; sometimes these push people towards one party and sometimes the other. Generally, polls show that most people don't think religion and politics should mix, but polls show even more strongly that people would not elect a non-Christian as President (or someone that didn't believe in God), so clearly they think religion and politicians should mix. I'm not sure why this similar attitude isn't more prevalent in other countries -- perhaps it's just the ones that I hear from more (largely EU or Pacific Rim countries). But in any event, I think it's a fundamental difference between the U.S. and the rest of the western world that one's faith is an important part of a candidate and therefore politics.

Here, Obama was clearly more comfortable talking about his faith than McCain. Despite the fact that Obama takes very liberal positions on hot-button issues for religious voters, he still did much better than any recent Democrat with what Americans refer to as "evangelical voters." If anything, this shows that talking and reaching out to religious voters is more powerful in American politics than historical party allegiances, and it's liable to stay that way if the Democrats don't look that gift horse in the mouth in future years.

Anyway, to somewhat disabuse some of the other notions on this thread (which I can't exactly blame, since I think the media is going a little overboard on how historic and unique this election was), this wasn't a referendum on "world politics" or even on race. Exit-polling numbers came in extremely low (which I think is a good thing - it shows progress) on race -- that means that few people voted for or against Obama because he's black. So why did they?

Five days after the Republican convention, McCain had a five point lead. He went into Nov 4 down almost twice that. In a couple months in American politics that's a massive swing -- 15% in enormous when you consider that most of the country votes their party no matter what. Imagine a continuum along which there is 30% of each side and 40% in the middle. The 40% are swing voters who might have voted for Reagan abut then might have voted for Clinton. The other 30% always votes Republican or always Democrat. So if you isolate that 40% and take the 15% nationally, consider that that's almost half the moderates changing their minds within a few weeks. That's an incredible shift. So what changed?

The DOW went through the floor; economist-pundits declared us to be in a recession, and the 40% in the middle, who always decide these elections, decided that Obama had better articulated an economic plan that would benefit them. Since August we've had the worst economic slide in the history of the country since the Great Depression. If there's something unique about this election -- that's it.

To be sure, there were people on the far right or far left who saw this as a referendum on race or world-relations; or on his religion (Obama identifies himself as United Church of Christ, a liberal protestant denomination and certainly not Muslim); but those people were going to vote their issues no matter who the candidate was.

Like I said, in American politics it's all about those independent moderates who swung to Reagan in the 1980s and Clinton in the 1990s and have split relatively evenly since. They largely left the Republican candidate this time because they were mad about the economy, not Iraq (60% of voters identified the economy as the major issue -- Iraq came in down around 15%). No offense, but I doubt most of those 40%'ers care what people in other countries think. Most people who care were going to vote Democrat anyway.

So while I think it's great for race-relations in this country, and will hopefully result in America taking its historical but abandoned place as a country of respect in the international community, neither of those issues drove this election. Non-swing voters would go down on their issues no matter what their economic interest, but swing voters lost jobs and think Obama is going to give them tax breaks or help them get their jobs back better than they thought McCain would. That's all it was.

[Bokushingu]

sorry but too much attention has been put on race and religious choice. People shouldn't let the freakin' media allways put race & Religion into their minds. I honestly think our country would have 80% less problems if ethnic statistic and stupid media article like, "First Black American President" freakin' disappeared.

Many Non Black Americans supported Obama & many black Americans such as I didn't. I thought it was nice that he won many states that are predominatly White & conservative. And lost some states that have a high percentage of Minorities. It shows that Americans, on most levels, are not haters, unfair & close minded. The Idiots are the minority.

So like someone said earlier just relax nothing bad will happen. No too mention that every single President has had some type of assination planned or attempted or completed against them. The news just used the hollow threats from recent to sell their garbage.

[hl1978]

cuz... US is a country made of immigrants? Who are just 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.


I would wager that there are a signifigant number of people who can trace their background much more than 1-2 generations back (i.e. decendents of various european colonists, slaves and native americans) whose ancestries are mixed in with those 1-2 generations back.

I wouldn't be surprised in my own case to have native american or african american ancestry, given that everyone in the US and canada with my last name are decendents of one guy who came over from England to New York nearly 400 years ago.

I have at least 9 hyphens so it is just easier to call myself an american.

[Maku-san]

This photo (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5618/jessexm4.jpg) explains for me the importance of Obama's win.

b
You just HAD to pick that picture, Ben-san!!! :jaguar:

Jesse Jackson is the ANTIPODE of what Barack Obama's all about. The man is so wrapped up in himself that he's a typical a**hole, racism not included. To see him crying like a baby just made my stomach turn.

Not to mention that he's an UNCONVICTED abuser/criminal (he paid off his accuser).

Wrong pic, Ben-san.. you shoulda put another one of an anonymous supporter in Chicago...

[Kenzan]

Jesse Jackson is the ANTIPODE of what Barack Obama's all about. The man is so wrapped up in himself that he's a typical a**hole, racism not included. To see him crying like a baby just made my stomach turn.


I think you're really missing the point, my man.
To many people, politics aside and on a human level,
this is an event of very profound proportions.

[jjcruiser]

Jesse Jackson was crying that it wasn't him being elected. He was thinking "why can't I have been born 20 years later" when actually someone like him who feeds off fear and divisiveness could never have united so many people like Obama did.

[misterkurukuru]

We can all agree that Jesse's facial expression are easier to understand than his words.

What the hell did Jesse Jackson say (http://conwayandwhitman.com/bits_jessejackson)

[kurisu]

Lets all sing the Obama song, brought to you from Obama Japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF_cevV4ZnI

[Bokushingu]

We can all agree that Jesse's facial expression are easier to understand than his words.

What the hell did Jesse Jackson say (http://conwayandwhitman.com/bits_jessejackson)


lol back then I was a kid when he ran. I thought kewl.

now I hear him speak & I think what the hell was the Democratic party thinking back then..?

basically the guy is in his own reality.

[Neil Gendzwill]

He rhymes really well...

[ben]

You just HAD to pick that picture, Ben-san!!! :jaguar:

Jesse Jackson is the ANTIPODE of what Barack Obama's all about. The man is so wrapped up in himself that he's a typical a**hole, racism not included. To see him crying like a baby just made my stomach turn.

Not to mention that he's an UNCONVICTED abuser/criminal (he paid off his accuser).

Wrong pic, Ben-san.. you shoulda put another one of an anonymous supporter in Chicago...

The reason I put this picture in was he was one of those present when King was shot, and I'm sure that one of the things going through his mind when that pic was taken was that he thought he would never see this day. That, and enormous sorrow for all those like King who never got to.

b

[Kenzan]

Why an Obama Presidency matters to the world. (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1856584_1856586,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)

My fav was from
Amartya Sen
Nobel Prize–winning economist

"The most important thing that Barack Obama brings to the presidency is his willingness to reason. He won his presidency not as a black American but as a reasoning American who happens to be black. America needs a change from the reign of "obtruding false rules pranked in reason's garb" — to use John Milton's words. Attacking Iraq for an imagined link with 9/11 was daft. Having unaffordable health care is not a reasonable way to run a rich society. Destroying the environment is not smart. Spreading the wealth a bit in a deeply unequal society is not as offensive to reason as it appeared to Joe the noncertified Plumber."

[satsumaruma]

What? your white- eye talian-white-white-white-white and un-athletic?

I am not disagreeing with your politics

but come on man,

don't be a bitch

"Celtic-Roman-Angle-Saxon-Dane- Norman- English-Yorkshireman."

Nope, that's actually German-Italian-German-German-Dane-French-Mongrel-God.

(and I could take real offence at the term "bitch" but I'll let it go this time, normally i only excuse those Americans, canadians, Aussies who Ive gotten used to and like - Paikea, kenzan, Maaku-san, newbie and so many more. Must be getting old to be so forgiving)


blah di blah

For instance, when I was in the military, we used to have large, hinged charts that would be displayed to give a class, called "flip charts." The name was changed to "TURN charts" out of a perceived slight to individuals of Asian descent. (To my knowledge, no one ACTUALLY made any complaints, and a Vietnamese friend of mine in my old unit rolled his eyes when we were told of this and said "Oh, gimme a break.") While I was initially incredulous over the change, I put myself in the place of such a person, and realized I might not appreciate the possible offense. Further, the new name had no more syllables, and therefore, wasn't any more or less difficult to say. Similarly, "black boards" became "chalk boards," which I had basically identical reactions to. The one I couldn't stand was when "white boards" became "dry erase boards." As I am a white boy, I can say with certainty that I was never personally offended by the term "white board," and really felt that this change was Political Correctness extending to the point of having gone berzerk. I realize that to change the first two, and not the third would have, itself been a form of discrimination. (I also realize that I'm waaayyy off topic for this thread, so please forgive me.) I guess my feeling is that if we are only changing and complicating what we call things, or how we refer to them, only out of fear that we might someday offend one person somewhere, we are simply confusing things and wasting time and energy that could be put toward solving problems with some actual substance.


Agree with you mate, it seems people are all to ready to take offence when clearly none is, or even could be, intended.

thankfully, we in the UK can now use blackboard again -the chair of the Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips pointed out that it has no negative connotations BUT more importantly, if t is a board and it is black....he said....what is wrong with referring to it as a blackboard?


cuz... US is a country made of immigrants? Who are just 1st and 2nd generation immigrants.
And i guess because we don't have ONE ethnic culture to take pride in, we take pride in our multi-culturalness haha. we have like latino-american history month, black-history month, asian-american histroy month etc....

What?? and the UK isn't? I know the US has a reputation for not knowing about any other country but itself but Jeez.

Well, I'll give you a hand on the UK starting with....Celts, Romans, Saxons, Jutes, Picts, Scots, Angles, Vikings, Danes, Normans, Frenchmen right through to Jamaicans, West Indians, Bahamians, Pakistanis, Indians, Chinese, Poles, Bangladeshis, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Greeks, Turks, Russians etc etc

And these are just the big groups who now reside here and form part of the ethnicity that is British.

[QUOTE=Kenzan;361951]Why an Obama Presidency matters to the world. (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1856584_1856586,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)

My fav was from
Amartya Sen
Nobel Prize–winning economist

"The most important thing that Barack Obama brings to the presidency is his willingness to reason. He won his presidency not as a black American but as a reasoning American who happens to be black. America needs a change from the reign of "obtruding false rules pranked in reason's garb" — to use John Milton's words. [QUOTE]

I'll remember this in 4 years time and see if you're all just as happy then?

I have no opinion on who won simply because I'm not sure it will make that much difference. But we shall see, yes we will.

[Abramo]

I'm glad most people is happy with this and I hope the general mood of "yay, change!" and "no more reps!" will do you good.

But as an innocent international bystander the only thing I expect is that this new president will at least TRY not to bombard some far-off, mostly defenseless country for any given reason. The fact of the matter is that US outbound militarism seems to be a constant regardless of the office being donkey or elephant (they're all asses anyway), and all presidents make a point of stressing it as indispensable for... whatever it is.
The negative image of the US has a lot more to do with this general trend than with Dubya's faux-pas or the most recent wars.
I mean, don't need to dissolve the 3rd Fleet, and by all means keep buying stuff from Lockheed-Martin, just try to give a different meaning to surgical bombing (because now it means hitting hospitals).

[Dervish]

For me, yesterday morning was a day unlike any other Election Day. I have voted in every US Presidential election since I turned 18. But this is the first time I woke up bright and early, en route to the polling place, anxious to take part in the democratic process. Yesterday was also the first time my father ever voted -- the first time that my family voted together.

I am very happy and proud to have Barack Hussein Obama as my country's President. And I believe that somehow, somewhere, Ignatz (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=317203#post317203) is very pleased, as well.

[Bokushingu]

Why an Obama Presidency matters to the world. (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1856584_1856586,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)

My fav was from
Amartya Sen
Nobel Prize–winning economist

"The most important thing that Barack Obama brings to the presidency is his willingness to reason. He won his presidency not as a black American but as a reasoning American who happens to be black. America needs a change from the reign of "obtruding false rules pranked in reason's garb" — to use John Milton's words. Attacking Iraq for an imagined link with 9/11 was daft. Having unaffordable health care is not a reasonable way to run a rich society. Destroying the environment is not smart. Spreading the wealth a bit in a deeply unequal society is not as offensive to reason as it appeared to Joe the noncertified Plumber."

well Said, Kenzan San
++REp.

[jjcruiser]

Why an Obama Presidency matters to the world. (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1856584_1856586,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)

My fav was from
Amartya Sen
Nobel Prize–winning economist

"The most important thing that Barack Obama brings to the presidency is his willingness to reason. He won his presidency not as a black American but as a reasoning American who happens to be black. America needs a change from the reign of "obtruding false rules pranked in reason's garb" — to use John Milton's words. Attacking Iraq for an imagined link with 9/11 was daft. Having unaffordable health care is not a reasonable way to run a rich society. Destroying the environment is not smart. Spreading the wealth a bit in a deeply unequal society is not as offensive to reason as it appeared to Joe the noncertified Plumber."

This statement jams several inaccuracies about the Bush administration into just a few short sentences, presumes a number of principles that have been proven wrong, and suggests an intense knowledge of a candidate's intellect and policies that have never actually been demonstrated. But I certainly join nearly all Americans -- even those who didn't vote for him -- in hoping that Obama is good for America and the world.

[atgm]

"black boards" became "chalk boards," which I had basically identical reactions to. The one I couldn't stand was when "white boards" became "dry erase boards."

I took away your bold tag because it hurts my eyes.

I've always said "chalk board" because the boards are almost never black and almost always olive or some other shade of green.

I've always said "dry erase board" because the first few I saw as a kid were colors that were not white.

Just my personal experience. You might be oversensitive about political correctness; it's not like there's a committee that decides to change words and then sends out memos or something. Someone may have told you to call X thing Y because of political correctness, but that doesn't mean that other people don't have their own, logical reasons for calling it Y.

[Jung_Yul]

I took away your bold tag because it hurts my eyes.

I've always said "chalk board" because the boards are almost never black and almost always olive or some other shade of green.

I've always said "dry erase board" because the first few I saw as a kid were colors that were not white.

Just my personal experience. You might be oversensitive about political correctness; it's not like there's a committee that decides to change words and then sends out memos or something. Someone may have told you to call X thing Y because of political correctness, but that doesn't mean that other people don't have their own, logical reasons for calling it Y.

While that is true for the world at large, the life and culture in the U.S. military is quite different. Within the Marine Corps there IS a committee that decides such things. We called it "Headquarters Marine Corps," and they DO send out memos in the form of orders as to what Marines are and are not allowed to do. Of course, to REALLY understand the kind of mentality of the U.S. military, you must understand things along these lines: Say you join the military (any branch) and on your first weekend with free time to yourself, you decide to play a sport game with your friends. Let's say football (and I mean the more aptly named "Internatioal" version, not our over-inflated "American" version where the ball is only touched by a foot perhaps, what, 5-6 times in a whole game? ^_^), and during the game you take a bad fall and break your arm. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, which outlines military law (that you are beholden to as well as civilian law) has rules and articles in it such that technically, because YOU broke YOUR arm, YOU can be charged with destruction of government property, and "appropriately" punished. Is this all that likely to happen? Most likely not, but it CAN happen is the point. I'm sad to say that as of the time I left in 2003, political correctness seemed to be running rampant, and if you were accused of discrimination (by NOT being "PC"), you stood a very good chance of being charged, losing pay, rank (and therefore hard-earned authority and responsibility... not to mention, MORE pay), etc.

On a side note, I'd like to thank you. I've been posting (granted, not all that much) on this forum since 2004, always in bold print, and in the past few months people suddenly started complaining about it. You're the first person to say something other than "stop doing that."

[atgm]

Ah, I thought you were talking about America at large, not just the military. I'll totally agree that the military is bureaucratized to a ridiculous extent.

You're welcome. Thank you as well, for not posting in bold.

[Jung_Yul]

Ah, I thought you were talking about America at large, not just the military. I'll totally agree that the military is bureaucratized to a ridiculous extent.

You're welcome. Thank you as well, for not posting in bold.

As I mentioned, you were the first to quantify your issue with the bold text with a reason, not phrase it like some kind of order. I respect your approach, and as such, will comply with your request. I haven't taken orders for 5 years. :laugh:

[satsumaruma]

As I mentioned, you were the first to quantify your issue with the bold text with a reason, not phrase it like some kind of order. I respect your approach, and as such, will comply with your request. I haven't taken orders for 5 years. :laugh:


I work within Her majesty's Ministry of Justice and can add that here in the UK we are awash with political correctness. The current government is the labour party and they just love creating new laws to control people - the PC lobby to them are a godsend.

it can be so bad within the Home Office departments (Police, Prison Service, Customs, Armed Forces, local Governments etc etc) that even the most silly of innocent comments can gain a laugh simply because it is deemed risque.

I am not saying we shouldn't be careful what we say but we should not be stifled either. If one says something that offends someone else - all you have to do is apologies and not do it again. Why the need to sue somone over a perceived sleight? greed pure and effing simple greed.

And whilst I am on me soapbox. I don't know if any other country suffers this but here in the UK Perception counts more at law than actuality. I kid you not - if someone perceives something to be racist then it is. End of story goodbye. tell me how one copes with that kind of thinking.

Who came up with this stupidity - our beloved Labour Party.

And who have you Americans just voted into office? your equivalent of the Labour party; a Democrat.

Good luck,

[Neil Gendzwill]

As I mentioned, you were the first to quantify your issue with the bold text with a reason, not phrase it like some kind of order. I'll quantify further: posting in bold, or in funky colours, or in extra-large fonts, is the modern equivalent of posting in all-caps - it makes it seem you're shouting at us or trying to draw extra attention to your posts. It's the KW equivalent of wearing a striped doh.

[Abramo]

I haven't taken orders for 5 years. :laugh:

Congrats on the divorce!

[NigelSponge]

for the first time in my life i voted. not because i believed in any of this crap, but because i didn't care for someone who is willing to cut tie with people he has been running with for last 20 yrs just to get himself into an office. but i guess it's now over and done with. i'll support him till he is out of the office as i have supported bush for last 8 yrs. after all, now he is the president elected.

pete
well, if u have that much of a problem with a person altering an aspect of their views or relations just to win a presidential election, maybe you should have taken a good look at McCain throughout the campaign to realize he basically tossed all his own views, that may have actually been qualified as mavericky to the curb, and let himself be ordered around and controlled by his party. Probably the most die hard McCain supporter i know agreed with me that almost none of what John McCain said throughout the race was actually his own thoughts. I felt he finally showed us his true colors in his concession speech.
Of course, regardless of McCain's actual views and tacics, and the ones he let control him through the campaign, i have been a very very enthusiastic Obama supporter since the primaries.
Good job America! :smiley:

[Big One]

Why an Obama Presidency matters to the world. (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1856584_1856586,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)

My fav was from
Amartya Sen
Nobel Prize–winning economist

"The most important thing that Barack Obama brings to the presidency is his willingness to reason. He won his presidency not as a black American but as a reasoning American who happens to be black. America needs a change from the reign of "obtruding false rules pranked in reason's garb" — to use John Milton's words. Attacking Iraq for an imagined link with 9/11 was daft. Having unaffordable health care is not a reasonable way to run a rich society. Destroying the environment is not smart. Spreading the wealth a bit in a deeply unequal society is not as offensive to reason as it appeared to Joe the noncertified Plumber."

Lets me translate it to English

For Iraq:
We should leave this Saddam unchecked so he could develop any type of weapon he wanted. After 5 years of reasoning with him without results, he kicked out all inspector, he used the money from oil for food to buy weapon, he threated other neighbord and it was all ok. We should keep making nonsense talk for another 20 years until he could produce Nuclear capability.

9/11 was a past and swept under the rug. For now, we should play like a gentlemen until another happen again, then we mourn for a few day and back to civilize playing part

Spreading a wealth: It is OK if you steal from rich people to give to others and the "rich people" is defined by the government. Robbing the bank is ok

Joe the noncertified plumber: It is Ok to invade everyone privacy as long as it is not your and your mesiah. If some one ask a question you don't like, put his life in misery to set an example for next guy. The only thing you can do is cheering every time the mesiah said something. When the mesiah associated with questionalbe people, don't say anything. When the Mesiah received a sweet deal from a crook like Tony Retzko, it is Ok as long as you like what he says.

Free health care: It is ok to keep printing money without consequences. Otherwise with the promised tax cut, where is the money for nationalized health care?

[Kenzan]

This statement jams several inaccuracies about the Bush administration into just a few short sentences, presumes a number of principles that have been proven wrong, and suggests an intense knowledge of a candidate's intellect and policies that have never actually been demonstrated. But I certainly join nearly all Americans -- even those who didn't vote for him -- in hoping that Obama is good for America and the world.

Yes, because we're in such great shape due to Republican and the great genius Bush's leadership now.
You do realize that the vast majority of the planet totally disagrees with you, yes?

Still, I admire your conviction.
It's happens to be mindbogglingly, wrong,
but none the less, I still admire you for it.

[Kenzan]

Lets me translate it to English

For Iraq:
We should leave this Saddam unchecked so he could develop any type of weapon he wanted. After 5 years of reasoning with him without results, he kicked out all inspector, he used the money from oil for food to buy weapon, he threated other neighbord and it was all ok. We should keep making nonsense talk for another 20 years until he could produce Nuclear capability.


I think you underestimate the physical engineering and procurement difficulties that are associated with obtaining the necessary components to obtain nuclear weaponry, let alone building, and maintaining (undetected) a guidance, and launch delivery facility, not to mention the fact that even if one was launched to say, Israel, they would (and Iraq knows it) retaliate 10 fold.
It's not as if you can just go down and buy these from the store or black market undetected. Even if you could, how will you launch it, and what the hell for if it means you'll be utterly destroyed.

This type of misinformed view is along the lines of scare tactics for the ignorant, nothing more.
Sadly, they have worked on the majority of the American populace this far, as most people can't be bothered to inform themselves on the realities of the issues more than just listening to Television sound bites from talking heads.
Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, was not even close to developing them, and the same is true for Iran at present.
Anyone who does not realize this fact needs to take a trip to these regions and see for themselves.




9/11 was a past and swept under the rug. For now, we should play like a gentlemen until another happen again, then we mourn for a few day and back to civilize playing part


Terrorism can happen at any moment, anywhere. That is the state of things.
The problem is, 911 was not caused by any one single government or faction.
It was a small group of Saudis and Egyptian individuals, financed by another rogue Saudi hiding in Afghanistan.
911 was not caused by the people or Governments of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. It was the work of individuals.
As far as combating terrorism, we need to address the root which is a Political and Diplomatic issue first, and if necessary, force should be employed only as a last resort, and on a specifically targeted area, and most importantly, it should be conducted multilaterally.

Complete Unilateralism is the earmark of despotic and immature governments.



Spreading a wealth: It is OK if you steal from rich people to give to others and the "rich people" is defined by the government. Robbing the bank is ok


If you have an income which resides in a higher tax bracket, you should pay more taxes.
Simple as that.
It's pretty much that way now, so I don't expect much to change on that issue.
To expect the middle class and the working poor to pay the lions' share of taxes makes no sense whatever.
The only other option I personally would consider would be a uniform tax across the board.
The main issue as it stands now is, the more wealth you have, the easier it is to exploit loopholes so that you, in many cases, pay less tax by percentage than someone who makes far less.



Joe the noncertified plumber: It is Ok to invade everyone privacy as long as it is not your and your mesiah.


You must be talking about the Patriot act.
Yours truly is on several of these certain lists, mainly because I like to check out things at the local Library.



Free health care: It is ok to keep printing money without consequences. Otherwise with the promised tax cut, where is the money for nationalized health care?

The problem with all privatized health care system is that since everyone needs health care, yet not everyone can afford it, then society will end up paying for it one way or another.
This isn't a problem you can simply throw money at either.
There needs to be a planned reform from the bottom up.

The bottom line on all of this being:
We need a government that examines these very complex types of issues rationally and intelligently and very carefully, not simply but the answer to Terrorism as
"Bomb that guy over there and hope you fix the problem" and
"It's your fault you are poor and can't afford health care because you are just simply lazy."

That's not reality, and that not the way mature governments engage in the process of serving it's people.
Let's have less with the Cowboy hats, and more with the slide-rule I say.

[Abramo]

For Iraq:
We should leave this Saddam unchecked so he could develop any type of weapon he wanted.

I see. He didn't have any weapons then, but of course he would get them EVENTUALLY!! I mean, duh! :rolleyes:

You still think aluminum cilinders and CG drawings of trucks are PROOF! of weapons development? Jeesh.

Oh and of course, after playing Cowboy-good-guy in the desert, because the world is totally counting on you guys to decide who "has to go" and who "is allowed to stay", who cares if the civilian population is plunged into a civil war and who cares if they're dying and their hospitals are destroyed and they get killed at random in the street because some Hick Yahoo from Jerkwater USA thought he was a "bad guy"?

[JByrd]

I guess my feeling is that if we are only changing and complicating what we call things, or how we refer to them, only out of fear that we might someday offend one person somewhere, we are simply confusing things and wasting time and energy that could be put toward solving problems with some actual substance.

Most problems of real substance require a solution that involves cooperation of people with disparate viewpoints. If you want cooperation, you have to be able to speak your ideas in terms that do not offend people.

To me, rushing past good manners to get to matters of substance shows a lack of understanding of what manners are all about. Every diplomat knows that, to the extent that we accommodate others in matters of form, they will accommodate us in matters of substance.

[Big One]

So you conviniently left out the part of Obama association with questionable group.

Iraq got not MDW? Then he probably used axes to kill thousand of thousand Kurds.

Before the war, the secret evidents were shown to congress. Both Dem. and Rep. approved the war. They must see something which we didn't.

All of the talk about reasoning with Iran or Iraq? too logical for mad people. If they are reasonable people, they would be too stupid to say in the front of the World that they will wipe Israel off the Earth, very reasoning. Why didn't we reasoning with Hitler before. What happened when there was only talk. Germany got stronger militarily and well, you know what happened.

How many times do you hear American bombing Hospital? and how many times do you hear the Shiai and Sunni bombing each others. Talking about bombing Hospital? Please prove.

The last time I know, fraction didn't distinguish between small or large number. Let say if tax is 10%, then 10% of $250,000 is way bigger than 10% of $50,000. therefore, the $250,000 guys already paid more tax than a $50,000 guy. Is this too hard to understand that? The problem is that people got greedy and American love free bees. As long as it is not effecting you, go for it. When I am a president, I will define that the upper income start at $35,000.00, then everyone will scream. The last time when someone reclaim the redistribution, Soviet Union was born.

[Maku-san]

I think you underestimate .....[post edited for brevity in reply quotation]
Let's have less with the Cowboy hats, and more with the slide-rule I say.

OMG... this is so well written, it should be carved in stone and sent to The Powers That Be.

Mega-Ultra-Giga-Tera-Googolplex +Rep to you for a very intelligent outlook in the American/Global Geopolitical Scene!!!

[Kapplow]

I openly reject and oppose every policy Obama has proposed so far and I will likely oppose every policy he will implement as President. I believe he is a socialist and marxist. He will threaten free speech and the 2nd amendment. I think he will more than likely wreck the country. IMO his taxes will destory the economy and his foreign policy will open us to further threats. Basically, I'm a Conservative. I'm not interested in debating my Liberal KW friends. I simply don't have the time or energy. Let's agree to disagree.

All that said Barack Obama won the election. The people chose their leader. Despite my own political beliefs, I wish President Obama the best and I will do my best to support him in everything that doesn't compromise my own principles. Although I truely believe he will be the worst president this country has ever seen, I will give him the courtesy and respect the office of the President deserves. I will never say some of the hateful and ignorant things about Obama that have been said about President Bush. Conservatives need to show Obama the respect Bush was never given. We're Americans and we need to be better than that. Now that we have our new leader, both the left and right need to come together and support our President in the areas you can. Congrats President Obama. As of right now you have a 100% approval rating with me.



Oh wait, Rom Emanuel...damn...

[Kenzan]

OMG... this is so well written, it should be carved in stone and sent to The Powers That Be.

Mega-Ultra-Giga-Tera-Googolplex +Rep to you for a very intelligent outlook in the American/Global Geopolitical Scene!!!

Nah..
I'm just an idiot with a Shinai.



..and I fall down alot.

[Maku-san]

Nah..
I'm just an idiot with a Shinai.



..and I fall down alot.

You modest bastard, you! :laugh: With a brain like that, you'd be frakkin' dangerous, shinai or no shinai!!! :jaguar:

[Toyoda]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80180

It seems that you elected an enemy of the United States. Be prepared.

[Maku-san]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80180

It seems that you elected an enemy of the United States. Be prepared.

Toyoda-san:

We Americans, having endured 7 years of horse-poop shovelled by our Mainstream Media by way of our failed Republican Administration (to wit: Cheney, Rummy, et al), have suddenly grown a pair and a whole bunch of fresh brain cells.

Hamas is NEVER sick of fighting. Just because he has a Muslim name doesn't make him a toady to their cause.

Methinks Hamas is fooling themselves, so when the shriek and rumble of our Mk. VII Peacekeeper MX missiles inbound to Hamas-ville reaches their ears, their first thought would be:

"I thot we wuz friendz!" :(

[Kenzan]

Hamas is NEVER sick of fighting. Just because he has a Muslim name doesn't make him a toady to their cause.



I like my Hamas on sesame-seed crackers.

[JByrd]

Before the war, the secret evidents were shown to congress. Both Dem. and Rep. approved the war. They must see something which we didn't.


They saw cherry-picked evidence, fabricated "facts," and a baseless association between Iraq and 9/11.



All of the talk about reasoning with Iran or Iraq? too logical for mad people. If they are reasonable people, they would be too stupid to say in the front of the World that they will wipe Israel off the Earth, very reasoning. Why didn't we reasoning with Hitler before. What happened when there was only talk. Germany got stronger militarily and well, you know what happened.

I'll buy that Hitler was bad, and Saddam was bad. Beyond that, the geopolitical differences between Germany in the 1930s and the Middle East in the 2000s are so profound as to make the comparison pointless.



How many times do you hear American bombing Hospital? and how many times do you hear the Shiai and Sunni bombing each others. Talking about bombing Hospital? Please prove.

If you really cannot think of any examples of the US killing civilians, you haven't been paying attention. Did you really miss the incident where we bombed a wedding in Afghanistan? Of course, when we do it, it is usually accidental, or determined to be acceptible "collateral damage." No doubt that makes the people who suffer much happier about it. I know I'd much rather have my limbs blown off by accident than by design.



The last time I know, fraction didn't distinguish between small or large number. Let say if tax is 10%, then 10% of $250,000 is way bigger than 10% of $50,000. therefore, the $250,000 guys already paid more tax than a $50,000 guy. Is this too hard to understand that? The problem is that people got greedy and American love free bees. As long as it is not effecting you, go for it.

Last time I looked, food, transportation, and shelter, were not proportionally cheaper for people with less money. That means they have to spend a larger percentage of their income on the most basic necessities of life. Funny how percentages work, isn't it?


When I am a president, I will define that the upper income start at $35,000.00, then everyone will scream. The last time when someone reclaim the redistribution, Soviet Union was born.

I'd rather see a corporate regulation that states that the highest paid employee of a large corporation cannot earn more than 100 times the amount earned by the lowest-paid person in the corporation. If the CEO wants to raise his own pay, he'll have to raise the pay of the custodian first.

[hl1978]

The last time I know, fraction didn't distinguish between small or large number. Let say if tax is 10%, then 10% of $250,000 is way bigger than 10% of $50,000. therefore, the $250,000 guys already paid more tax than a $50,000 guy. Is this too hard to understand that? The problem is that people got greedy and American love free bees. As long as it is not effecting you, go for it. When I am a president, I will define that the upper income start at $35,000.00, then everyone will scream. The last time when someone reclaim the redistribution, Soviet Union was born.

Lots of people are all for spending other peoples money.

I live in one of the richest areas of the country, where the median income is over 100k.


http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/demogrph/gendemo.htm#inc

While that does sound like a lot of money, it doesn't quite get you as far as you might think given the higher costs of living (http://www.sungazette.net/articles/2008/07/27/fairfax/news/ffx21.txt) ~$616K for a single familiy house.

http://www.city-data.com/county/Fairfax_County-VA.html


It gets worse in the NYC area and in areas of CA as well.

I certainly don't feel wealthy, despite the average person in this area being in the top 15% of income. Given the above links, the average mortgage+taxes here is ~$2500 a month, it appears that I could live like a king if I moved somewhere else and were somehow able to maintain the same income, however if I moved somewhere else I wouldn't have the same income due to the cost of living so it is an unrealistic dream. I already pay close to 40% of my income in taxes (federal, state, property tax, car tax which is killer here if you buy a new car, social security, medicare etc), and 30% of my income in mortgage payments so excuse me if I feel a bit tapped out if people suggest that I should contribute more to the benefit of society.

We need to get our financial house in order.



On a side note few people realize that the US spends roughly the same on k-12 education as we do on the military outside of the Iraq war. This is of course funded mostly through local property taxes. With my own local school district they have roughly 13,000 teachers and 9,000 administrators. I have often wondered why there are so many administrators.

[hl1978]

Last time I looked, food, transportation, and shelter, were not proportionally cheaper for people with less money. That means they have to spend a larger percentage of their income on the most basic necessities of life. Funny how percentages work, isn't it?


That of course varies by where you live, which makes you wonder how low income people who live in high cost areas get by.

For those living in cheaper places, food and shelter certainly do cost less, but incomes are lower. When my townhouse was built, I could have bought two 3200sqft homes by the same builder, for the same price in am Austin suburb. During my time in Texas, groceries were roughly 20-30% cheaper as well.

A 100k income in a east coast suburb and a 100k income in the middle of America yield two rather different lifestyles.

[Jung_Yul]

Congrats on the divorce!

ROFL Very nice. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[JByrd]

That of course varies by where you live, which makes you wonder how low income people who live in high cost areas get by.


That's a good point. It's not as if low income people can just move to a place with a lower cost of living. We can't have all the CEOs living in Manhattan, and all the custodians living in Missisippi.

Every functional community needs a mix of jobs, at different income levels, and every working person should be able to make enough to live. Creating a functional community environment requires social engineering, and tax policy has always been a primary means of social engineering.

[Big One]

They saw cherry-picked evidence, fabricated "facts," and a baseless association between Iraq and 9/11.

So Saddam didn't kill any Kurds and no chemical hadn't been used.


I'll buy that Hitler was bad, and Saddam was bad. Beyond that, the geopolitical differences between Germany in the 1930s and the Middle East in the 2000s are so profound as to make the comparison pointless.

I don't see the different, they were all mad men and that includes the Iranian guy. You don't logical to the crazy.


If you really cannot think of any examples of the US killing civilians, you haven't been paying attention. Did you really miss the incident where we bombed a wedding in Afghanistan? Of course, when we do it, it is usually accidental, or determined to be acceptible "collateral damage." No doubt that makes the people who suffer much happier about it. I know I'd much rather have my limbs blown off by accident than by design.


One blow and there was all over the news. building school, sewer system, bridge and nobody give a damm.


Last time I looked, food, transportation, and shelter, were not proportionally cheaper for people with less money. That means they have to spend a larger percentage of their income on the most basic necessities of life. Funny how percentages work, isn't it?

Then save money, get better education, work harder. I am not going to share my hard work earning with the guy who didn't want to wok. If I came to this country 18 years ago with nothing and now graduated from college, making $90,000.00, I don't want to give it to some one who didn't deserve it. If I want to share, then it should be my decision, not a government or anybody else.


I'd rather see a corporate regulation that states that the highest paid employee of a large corporation cannot earn more than 100 times the amount earned by the lowest-paid person in the corporation. If the CEO wants to raise his own pay, he'll have to raise the pay of the custodian first.

I agree partially with you on this. However, how much to pay the CEO is the share holder decision. If the CEO fail, he had to pay for it. If he cheat, then prosecute him. How funny it is when every one making profit on their 401K, stocks, shares, no body discuss about CEO salary. When it is stumble, then we start to blame others.

[Kenzan]

So you conviniently left out the part of Obama association with questionable group.

~Because there was no association other than what is in certain people's minds.

I have an acquaintance who is Muslim.
So I associate with Muslims.
Am I now a Muslim?



Before the war, the secret evidents were shown to congress. Both Dem. and Rep. approved the war. They must see something which we didn't.


If such evidence is secret, then how do you know about? But in any case, it would serve only to help Bush at his hopefully soon-to-be war-crimes trial.


..As long I'm wishing, I'd like a pony.



All of the talk about reasoning with Iran or Iraq? too logical for mad people. If they are reasonable people, they would be too stupid to say in the front of the World that they will wipe Israel off the Earth, very reasoning. Why didn't we reasoning with Hitler before. What happened when there was only talk. Germany got stronger militarily and well, you know what happened.


So I take it you feel that ignorance and intolerance should be fought with a hefted sword, and not a schoolbook.
Who cares what they "say"?
What I care about is do they have the ability to take action on their words?
Most can (even before the invasion) barely read or write, or have enough to eat, let alone plot worldwide domination.

These people need education and infrastructure which is sensitive to their own unique issues and cultural/ethic diversities.
Support for such changes, if asked for again, should be multilateral and never forced on a people.
The only lasting change that has ever taken effect within a society has only been when the people truly feel as though "we did this ourselves."

if a country does not want to participate in the global process, then, through sanctions, they become like North Korea. As we see how that goes.



The problem is that people got greedy and American love free bees.


That's right. All middle-class and working poor are just a bunch of freeloaders sponging off of real "hard-working Americans."

Give me a break.
I think you are misunderstanding both the purpose and function of the concept of a Society.

It seems you want a great society, but don't want to pay for it.
As you pointed out earlier, the monies have to come from somewhere, and the more you have, the more you contribute.
Where did that wealth come from?
From the work and sweat of the middle and lower class.
Unless you consider sitting in an Executive office and playing Golf three times a week hard work.

That's part and parcel of living in a society.
Or would you prefer a society in which you keep all that you have, and let everyone fend for themselves?

If so, that's ok, but I hope you know how to grow your own food, make your own clothes, repair your own stuff and protect your own goods.

I don't know about you, but I like living indoors, shopping at the market, and well, eating regularly.

There's price to be paid for that, and it's called taxes.
Taxes from the money made by ALL Americans wealthy and poor alike, folks work bust their ass to perform back-breaking labor, which are generally the middle and lower classes; you know, the ones who who actually still produce things in our society?

What do the rich produce?
Shuffled Paper? Jobs? Opportunity?
Opportunity for what?
To make the wealthy even more so, and when that isn't enough, we have Corporations and Financial institutions cheating us out of everything else.

So pardon me if I don't weep to hard for the rich because they have to pay a little bit more in taxes.
It just means they might not be able to afford yet another summer home this year.
Meanwhile, their Employees who work 16 hours a day and have no health care and can barely put food on the table might just have a chance, and just a little more time to spend on working to make themselves and the lives their families a little better, that is ,if their company does not ship their job overseas to save a few bucks.
Yeah, that's real patriotic alright.

But that's just the the notion of financial feudalism that encompasses the right these days.

[Kenzan]

If I came to this country 18 years ago with nothing and now graduated from college, making $90,000.00.
I don't want to give it to some one who didn't deserve it.


I talked to America today, and she says "You're welcome for the opportunity which was created by it's native-born people, who supported programs and who gave their time, hard work, and money, to aid immigrants such as yourself to come to this country to succeed."

For this favor, she asks from you nothing more than to make it easier for others to do the same.

[Maku-san]

I like my Hamas on sesame-seed crackers.

Is that what that gristle and hominy stuff they sell in the deli chill box is?

[Abramo]

Seeing how Big One has pulled the Hitler card already I'll offer this little reasoning.

First, as has been said, Germany in the 1920-30s can't be compared to Iraq in the 1980-2000s. First because Iraq was never a military or economic power!! Second because Iraq wasn't by any means conquering neighboring countries by brute force.

Second, the "Alliance" or whatever invaded Iraq under FALSE pretenses, as has been extensively proven, none less by the lack of WMDs found by your troops. You know who else used lame excuses and lies to invade other countries?

"Oh noes, look, the Poles are attacking our borders! They killed our troops. They are dangerous so we must invade them." - Sep. 1939.

[ben]

Neil: Hitler and the Nazis have been mentioned. That's the signal to lock this thread.

b :(

[Wesley Myers]

Well, if a few more people would have voted for Vinnie Stigma this thread would not be the way it is ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONDccArUA54

[yoda-waza]

How ironic that a thread on Obama has diverged from his message of hope and consensus, degenerating instead to the point that someone has suggested locking it up. I hope this is not a portent of the coming months. Haven't we suffered enough at the hands of our own antagonism?

[Kenzan]

how ironic that a thread on obama has diverged from his message of hope and consensus, degenerating instead to the point that someone has suggested locking it up. I hope this is not a portent of the coming months. Haven't we suffered enough at the hands of our own antagonism?

why won't someone think of the children!!!!

[Wesley Myers]

why won't someone think of the children!!!!


Vinnie was ...

*(see my previous post)*

[Kagerou]

How ironic that a thread on Obama has diverged from his message of hope and consensus, degenerating instead to the point that someone has suggested locking it up. I hope this is not a portent of the coming months. Haven't we suffered enough at the hands of our own antagonism?

The paradox of the freedom of speech. Everyone deserves to say what they feel but it leads people of differing opinions to argue, bicker, then fight. At that point certain ideas become taboo to talk about and are censured.

[Manuka]

why won't someone think of the children!!!!


I'll quantify further: posting in bold, or in funky colours, or in extra-large fonts, is the modern equivalent of posting in all-caps - it makes it seem you're shouting at us or trying to draw extra attention to your posts. It's the KW equivalent of wearing a striped doh.

An interesting example

[Maku-san]

An interesting example

But Kenzan-san does have a point... :D

[Kendoka_Han]

So you don't think Obama's appointment will really effect world politics?

Only after 6-9 months when hes in power....THEN hes the great invite for Islam to spread through America like wild fire, which will result in a more "ecumenical" order in all religions. This will likely become secured by the next Pope after Benedictus, and then all nations will go against israel along side the new never before seen EU Union President (Tony Blair has opted for a seat) in charge.

:smoker:

[Kenzan]

Only after 6-9 months when hes in power....THEN hes the great invite for Islam to spread through America like wild fire, which will result in a more "ecumenical" order in all religions. This will likely become secured by the next Pope after Benedictus, and then all nations will go against israel along side the new never before seen EU Union President (Tony Blair has opted for a seat) in charge.

:smoker:

Look kid,
I got nothing against you if you want to smoke a little Koala Gold, but please, just do it after you post, M'kay?

[Kendoka_Han]

Look kid,
I got nothing against you if you want to smoke a little Koala Gold, but please, just do it after you post, M'kay?

I did!......

[xvikingx]

Only after 6-9 months when hes in power....THEN hes the great invite for Islam to spread through America like wild fire, which will result in a more "ecumenical" order in all religions. This will likely become secured by the next Pope after Benedictus, and then all nations will go against israel along side the new never before seen EU Union President (Tony Blair has opted for a seat) in charge.

:smoker:
Odd. Most idiots don’t advertise.
Please take your crazy religious bullshit elsewhere.

[Kenzan]

Never let is be said that I have no sense of humor. (http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/11/obama-south-par.html?%3F)

[Kendoka_Han]

Odd. Most idiots don’t advertise.
Please take your crazy religious bullshit elsewhere.

Did I quote anything? ;)

[xvikingx]

Did I quote anything? ;)
Cool. Random questions.
Oh! Oh! Oh! My turn! My turn!

What time is it on Christmas Island?

[JByrd]

One blow and there was all over the news. building school, sewer system, bridge and nobody give a damm.


Yeah, that's a big problem with air to ground missiles. One tiny little screw-up, and there goes your reputation as a nice guy.

[Kendoka_Han]

Cool. Random questions.
Oh! Oh! Oh! My turn! My turn!

What time is it on Christmas Island?

Well since its a demonic fantasy Island which compromises in the lusts of child rape and voyeur, I think I will digress in even thinking about the "time" associated with this disgusting child play.

I suppose according to their time, its time that they decieve you more ;).

[Maku-san]

Cool. Random questions.
Oh! Oh! Oh! My turn! My turn!

What time is it on Christmas Island?

Same time it is on Easter Island.

[Maku-san]

Odd. Most idiots don’t advertise.
Please take your crazy religious bullshit elsewhere.

Nah... 'Mon over deah scoahed some major hinky ganja, 'Mon!

Bloodfire!!!

Feelin' irie, 'Mon!!!

:cool:

[Big One]

I have an acquaintance who is Muslim.
So I associate with Muslims.
Am I now a Muslim?

First, I said nothing about Muslim or not.
Second, A guy said that bombing America is ok and you know about him but you are still ok to associate with him. Very nice.


If such evidence is secret, then how do you know about? But in any case, it would serve only to help Bush at his hopefully soon-to-be war-crimes trial.

I don't know the secret evidence since I am nobody to see the secret, but I trusted our congress. What I didn't know that after you approved the war and for political purposes, you change your mind and called our troop only burning village and killing women and children overthere.



So I take it you feel that ignorance and intolerance should be fought with a hefted sword, and not a schoolbook.
Who cares what they "say"?
What I care about is do they have the ability to take action on their words?
Most can (even before the invasion) barely read or write, or have enough to eat, let alone plot worldwide domination.

These people need education and infrastructure which is sensitive to their own unique issues and cultural/ethic diversities.
Support for such changes, if asked for again, should be multilateral and never forced on a people.
The only lasting change that has ever taken effect within a society has only been when the people truly feel as though "we did this ourselves."

if a country does not want to participate in the global process, then, through sanctions, they become like North Korea. As we see how that goes.

Who didn't have capability? Last time I checked they do. Iraq did build a nuclear facility before and was bombed by Israelis. The World proved that Iran got Nuclear too.


It seems you want a great society, but don't want to pay for it.....

But that's just the the notion of financial feudalism that encompasses the right these days.

Well, who said I didn't want to pay for the society, the last time I checked, I pay tax every year and I have never received any welfare from the government. Therefore, the native born here didn't help me at all. However, I am thankfully for the freedom, opportunity that I got which was never available for me at my native. I came from a communist country and I heard enough of redistribution, and framing "if you don't pay more tax, you are not a patriot".

How you define middle class? by their education, social status, income, or what? What give the government the right to define the mark $250,000.

by define working as: sweating, working your finger to the bone, breaking your back, then there are so many people in America are not working: Scientist, office people, engineers, astronomer, professor, teacher, and include our government, and president, that is President Obama.

I am not defending the rich, but if everyone should be equally in front of the law. You can't subjective any group base on their status quo.

By the way, the way you descrive middle class in America who work 16 hours a day without a good pay, sweating blood without enough food on the table, are you sure you are talking about America. It sounds more like China. the last time I check, if you work more than 8 hours, you got pay overtime that 1.5 time of your wage.

[xvikingx]

the last time I check, if you work more than 8 hours, you got pay overtime that 1.5 time of your wage.
Some people don't. But hey that's reality for you. Sometimes it doesn't fit with one's rhetoric, so you've just got to twist it a little.
Nice direction this thread has taken.

[Big One]

Second because Iraq wasn't by any means conquering neighboring countries by brute force.

Oh, I see. Iraq invaded Kuwait is a myth.


Second, the "Alliance" or whatever invaded Iraq under FALSE pretenses, as has been extensively proven, none less by the lack of WMDs found by your troops. You know who else used lame excuses and lies to invade other countries?

"Oh noes, look, the Poles are attacking our borders! They killed our troops. They are dangerous so we must invade them." - Sep. 1939.

There were several problem right there. There was time the UN inspector were checking Iraq and they said Iraq got all capability, material to produce WMD. That was UN inspectors, not American inspectors. Then he kicked all inspectors out for several years and nobody know what was going on inside the country. At that point, are you so sure that he was a little poor helpless man.
If a president of Iran said that he got Nuclear and he intended to wipe out Israel? Do you just ignore him?
Look at Cambodia, before someone could check on the regime, 2.5 millinon of their own people were killed. such a little guy.

[xvikingx]

Oh, I see. Iraq invaded Kuwait is a myth.
Go to war over something that happened over a decade earlier!? We already fought that war!!!

[ben]

The paradox of the freedom of speech. Everyone deserves to say what they feel but it leads people of differing opinions to argue, bicker, then fight. At that point certain ideas become taboo to talk about and are censured.

I wasn't trying to censure discussion so much as recognise two counter-productive dynamics at work, this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) and this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law).

And now that idiot from WA has weighed in with his ridiculous, pseudo-Christian paranoia, I think this thread REALLY should be closed.

And I agree with the poster who observed that all this thread was supposed to be was recognition and celebration of a great day in US politics.

The political 'discussion' that followed is sad but was always inevitable.

b

[Alison2805]

Well since its a demonic fantasy Island which compromises in the lusts of child rape and voyeur, I think I will digress in even thinking about the "time" associated with this disgusting child play.

I suppose according to their time, its time that they decieve you more ;).

Do you even know where or what Christmas Island is??
Go look up the words "comprimises" and "digress". Try to stick to words you actually know the meaning to.

Isnt it about time this moron was banned?

[Abramo]

If a president of Iran said that he got Nuclear and he intended to wipe out Israel? Do you just ignore him?

You're missing the whole point. Nobody wants you to make those decisions. Nobody wants the US as World Police. Contrary to what many of your war-prone conservatives think, the world doesn't come running to Uncle Sam when it needs to be saved like a damsel in distress. You do it because you can get away with it, but don't play victim when the rest of the world hates you and when people start getting pissed off with that. We're not all jealous of your wealth.

Speaking of distress, shouldn't you be helping Georgia out? Oh, right, can't play with the grownups. Better let Russia do what it wants.

It's nice you mentioned Cambodia. You didn't do anything about that now, did ya? No, those damn Vietnam commies had to step in. And Ruanda? Well, Africa is Europe's backyard so why should you bother... should I continue? Isn't it obvious the US will only intervene when it fits its own interests, like every other nation? Are you going to be all partisan and keep up with that "spreading democracy" crap?

[Abramo]

I wasn't trying to censure discussion so much as recognise two counter-productive dynamics at work, this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) and this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law).


Calling on those "laws" is also counter-productive. It's irrational to simply cease all discussion when the subject is Nazis. In fact, when talking about international military intervention the case of the III Reich is a paradigm, so it makes sense to bring it up even if it's to be dismissed.

Nazism needs to be understood as a political and historical phenomenon instead of being swept under the rug because people are both too ignorant and too emotional to talk about it. I think treating it as taboo is not the way to go.

[NigelSponge]

Although I truely believe he will be the worst president this country has ever seen, I will give him the courtesy and respect the office of the President deserves. I will never say some of the hateful and ignorant things about Obama that have been said about President Bush. Conservatives need to show Obama the respect Bush was never given.

i don't want to set a flame with you Kapplow, i think this was a great post and is a model for all of those who weren't satisfied with a presidential election's results.
That said, there was little respect for Bush from Liberals like myself, mainly because we felt that there was little respect given BY him.

[NigelSponge]

There's price to be paid for that, and it's called taxes.


"I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization."
--Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

nuff said.

[ben]

Calling on those "laws" is also counter-productive. It's irrational to simply cease all discussion when the subject is Nazis. In fact, when talking about international military intervention the case of the III Reich is a paradigm, so it makes sense to bring it up even if it's to be dismissed.

Nazism needs to be understood as a political and historical phenomenon instead of being swept under the rug because people are both too ignorant and too emotional to talk about it. I think treating it as taboo is not the way to go.

In that case you should split off a new thread where that is the topic under discussion. My appealing to those laws is not counter-productive because I don't see anything to be gained with a discussion about the Third Reich (how did we get there anyway? I admit that I skimmed a bit...) in this thread anyway.

The issue is not whether people should be allowed to discuss particular topics, but rather, how some discussions are apt to devolve to a single issue, beyond which, intelligent thought usually ceases.

And when you get the Third Reich and LARP Christianity in the one thread I say find yourself a stagecoach and get the hell out of Dodge.

b

[Abramo]

I agree that's a general tendency but I really don't think it's helpful to say "Godwin's law! No more thinking allowed!". Don't you think that's a bit exagerated at times?

Like I said, it wasn't all that stupid in the context. We're talking Obama, and US foreign policy, and interventionism, and abusive governments. I'm sorry if that's too much off tracking in your thread, I didn't mean to (help) blow it. But c'mon, we couldn't just have pages and pages of Obama praising. Politics breeds discussion and I'd like to think not everything said here is useless flaming.

Also, sorry if I sounded harsh or rude, I understand where you're coming from.

[xvikingx]

I agree that's a general tendency but I really don't think it's helpful to say "Godwin's law! No more thinking allowed!". Don't you think that's a bit exagerated at times?
Don't you think THAT is a bit exagerated?

[Lloromannic]

I don't see the different, they were all mad men and that includes the Iranian guy. You don't logical to the crazy.





I'd like to quote this bit as the most sound pair of sentences on this thread. Please guys, let's not argue with people with arguments as absurd as "he is a marxist" or "the religious or gender leanings of a person can make him a lesser person".

Please, don't logical to the crazy.

[Ookami7]

Ah Kendo/ kenjutsu and Politics, last time the streets of Kyoto ran red with blood as the result.

Come on kiddies if you want to seriously do the whole geo-relig-political debate start a diff thread. Speaking of which at 9pgs length this thing has gone on way too long!

[Kagerou]

I wasn't trying to censure discussion so much as recognise two counter-productive dynamics at work, this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) and this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law).

And now that idiot from WA has weighed in with his ridiculous, pseudo-Christian paranoia, I think this thread REALLY should be closed.

And I agree with the poster who observed that all this thread was supposed to be was recognition and celebration of a great day in US politics.

The political 'discussion' that followed is sad but was always inevitable.

b

Sorry if it seemed like my observation was aimed at you. It wasn't. It was just a general statement of how human social interactions degrade when people keep arguing.....or in this case feeding the trolls (yes I know this counts as troll food too as I'm sure it will be commented on).

I think if both sides just stepped back and speak aloud what they wrote they would realise that they are being childish. America has a new president....congratulate him and be quiet. There is ZERO point to arguing over what he will do or might have done.

Also remember he is the American president. If you aren't American it's really none of your business to critisize their choice, it's an internal affair.

[Kagerou]

Just as an after thought as I sit here bored at work....

Do you show as much interest in the politics of your home country as you do American politics?

[Ookami7]

kagerou, tried to rep ya but the kendo/ Iaido gods ain`t listening today for some reason! Catch ya on the next one!

[Jung_Yul]

Most problems of real substance require a solution that involves cooperation of people with disparate viewpoints. If you want cooperation, you have to be able to speak your ideas in terms that do not offend people.

To me, rushing past good manners to get to matters of substance shows a lack of understanding of what manners are all about. Every diplomat knows that, to the extent that we accommodate others in matters of form, they will accommodate us in matters of substance.

I agree with what you are saying, but I fear that you missed my point. I'm not in favor of "rushing past good manners," in any way at all. In fact, I thought that I'd made that point earlier, but I could be wrong. I fully agree with behaving in a civilized, well-mannered fashion. What I don't really agree with is increasing that sentiment 100 fold so that we go from the idea of "Let me treat you with the dignity and respect you deserve as a fellow human being," to "Let me speak to you as if I'm walking on egg shells out of sheer terror of your taking offense at something I intended to be complimentary." THAT'S the difference I'm opposed to.

[Kendoka_Han]

Do you even know where or what Christmas Island is??
Go look up the words "comprimises" and "digress". Try to stick to words you actually know the meaning to.

Compromise was a typed error. I added an "i" instead of an "o".....

As far as "digress" is concerned.....I don't see any grammatical errors?

Maybe re-reading the words "...this disgusting child play"....has much more meaning in context as a whole in what I am trying to put across on this board!

[hl1978]

You're missing the whole point. Nobody wants you to make those decisions. Nobody wants the US as World Police. Contrary to what many of your war-prone conservatives think, the world doesn't come running to Uncle Sam when it needs to be saved like a damsel in distress. You do it because you can get away with it, but don't play victim when the rest of the world hates you and when people start getting pissed off with that. We're not all jealous of your wealth.

Speaking of distress, shouldn't you be helping Georgia out? Oh, right, can't play with the grownups. Better let Russia do what it wants.

It's nice you mentioned Cambodia. You didn't do anything about that now, did ya? No, those damn Vietnam commies had to step in. And Ruanda? Well, Africa is Europe's backyard so why should you bother... should I continue? Isn't it obvious the US will only intervene when it fits its own interests, like every other nation? Are you going to be all partisan and keep up with that "spreading democracy" crap?

Well, I don't think the Monroe doctrine extends to Africa, though it would have been a very good thing if the rest of the world had stepped in earlier. That is a failure on everyone's part.

As for Georgia, the US is helping from a humanitarian perspective, but the US does not want a direct confrontation with Russia at this point. I am curious if our current policy there is in deference to our European allies who recieve a fair amount of energy supplies/heating fuel from the Russians, and who would ultimately get dragged in to such a conflict if the US were to be involved. Energy independence would be a good thing for most countries.

[Abramo]

Do you show as much interest in the politics of your home country as you do American politics?

Quite more, actually.

But ok, I'll stop coming here for food.

[hl1978]

My only problem with Obama is that he is a very selfish man. That might sound a bit outrageous to some, but hear me out. If you get elected to your first term in the senate, and then spend nearly 2 out of three years campaigning (missing 46% of the votes in the current congress, http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/o000167/) rather than representing your constituents makes it seem clear to me that you don't care that much about representing the interests of your people, but care more about your own political ambitions.

Sure any cannidate who runs will miss a lot, but to do so right from the start bothers me, because they are putting themselves before those who elected them to their position.

So much for putting self interest ahead of being a public servant.

[bobdonny]

It could be argued that by winning he is better representing his constituents!

[Nanbanjin]

As for Georgia, the US is helping from a humanitarian perspective, but the US does not want a direct confrontation with Russia at this point.
If the US has a confrontation with Russia ever it is the end. Put a period after the word History. There's no need to consider anything else.

[JByrd]

I agree with what you are saying, but I fear that you missed my point. I'm not in favor of "rushing past good manners," in any way at all. In fact, I thought that I'd made that point earlier, but I could be wrong. I fully agree with behaving in a civilized, well-mannered fashion. What I don't really agree with is increasing that sentiment 100 fold so that we go from the idea of "Let me treat you with the dignity and respect you deserve as a fellow human being," to "Let me speak to you as if I'm walking on egg shells out of sheer terror of your taking offense at something I intended to be complimentary." THAT'S the difference I'm opposed to.

I can understand that. I wouldn't say that is a problem of political correctness, but rather a tendency some people have to constantly look for a reason to claim they have been offended. It seems counterintuitive, but some people feel empowered by considering themselves victims. Once they establish that they have been hit first, it justifies whatever nastiness they wish to unload.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Night, night, everyone.