Kaoru's discuss the Hagakure thread :)

[Machismo111]

Sounded like a good idea, and a lot of these stories dont make sense to me, so here goes. (this is from the William Scott Wilson version with the biohazard sign on the front :) )

"If your strength is only that which comes from vitality, your words and personal conduct will appear to be in accord with the Way, and you will be praised by others. But when you question yourself about this, there will be nothing to be said. The last line of the poem that goes, "When your own heart asks," is the secret principle of all the arts. It is said that it is a good censor."
From the 2nd Chapter, pg 88, 2nd to last paragraph.

A subnote completes the poem mentioned as, "To tell others that / It is a rumor / Will not do. / When your own heart asks / How will you respond?" from the "Gosen waka shu".

So I dont quite understand that one, or at least the meaning behind it =). Lets discuss =D. It would seem to be alluding to youthful bravado, perhaps? Strength of Vitality and all. Or is it just hollow confidence? I donno, my puny brain is overwhelmed!

[Shiro]

Cool! someone did it! :D

I'll let kaoru the honor of posting the first comment on the fragment, but if it isn't done by tomorrow, I post! ;) :D

[Kaoru]

Hi guys!

Hehe, thanks guys! I didn't expect somebody to actually put this up. :)
This will be fun, neh? :D

Ok, to get this started off, how about this? Lets all reply to this quote first. Does anyone have a suggestion as to how many days to keep a quote to discuss, then put up a new one? I had suggested a week, but what does everyone else think? It is less confusing to just discuss one for a while, until ideas are run out, and then change it. Any thoughts on this?

Ok, so I'll start it off as Shiro wishes. :D

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"If your strength is only that which comes from vitality, your words and personal conduct will appear to be in accord with the Way, and you will be praised by others. But when you question yourself about this, there will be nothing to be said. The last line of the poem that goes, "When your own heart asks," is the secret principle of all the arts. It is said that it is a good censor."
From the 2nd Chapter, pg 88, 2nd to last paragraph.

A subnote completes the poem mentioned as, "To tell others that / It is a rumor / Will not do. / When your own heart asks / How will you respond?" from the "Gosen waka shu".
------------

Well, I have the same translation you do. And, I'm only on Pg 57, so I skipped to see where it was. Hmmm... this IS a tough one. One definition of vitality is "The capacity to live, grow, or develope." The other definition given is, "That which distinguishes the living from the non-living; an energy, force, or principle characteristic of life; vital force." And another is "Vigor; energy; exuberence." I got these definitions out of the Reader's Digest Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary.

So, I think he must mean that if a person has an inner will to live, which will cause one to be able to live , grow and develope, it will show without a person trying to act like they have that will. A person's words and conduct can be determined by hwo a person behaves or acts, and I think this is what he may mean. A person who is positive and has all that vitailty in whatever they do, without knowing they have this, will be praised. And, if a person becomes aware of this state, and questions it, may be cause for losing this aspect of him/herself(I know this was meant only for males, but it is now for all.), and be ignored by others. perhaps, he might mean? I am not exactly sure where I am trying to go with this, haha! Sorry. It's hard to say what I am thinking on this, and put it into words.

The poem? Well, I think this means don't gossip, and don't start rumours by repeating what was heard. The last two sentences mean that when your heart asks you why you did so, how are you going to justify the remarks? Are you going to realise it is wrong to start rumours, or ignore what you know your heart says is wrong to do? If yoy don't listen to your heart on grave and important things such as this, you will fall into the habit of causing rumours to start or be perpetuated and hurt a person and/or yourself in the end because you didn't listen to what your own heart was saying to you about it. That's what I think this poem means, and it helps explain the above passage Tsunetomo-san wrote.

Well, those are just my humble observations.

Kaoru

[Machismo111]

Since Im a cynic Ill just point out things I'm not sure about and build on them...

First thing I notice that stands out is that he says only. "If your strength is only that which comes from vitality." That alludes to another sort of strength that one could or should have. Another thing that sticks out is the word "appear". If it only 'appears' to be in accord with the way, it may mean it isnt.

"When you question yourself about this there will be nothing to be said." gives the impression that your accordance with the way is not true, and it only appears so through the facade of vitality. Or...perhaps he is referring to spirit? If your only strength comes from vitality (livelyness, energy, muscle, youth...), you wont have strength of heart, or spirit.

The poem...I dont understand. "When your own heart asks / How will you respond?" seems to refer to some kind of inner questioning. Someone who's lived behind a mask their whole life finally asking themselves questions. So more or less I agree with Kaoru on this one.

Both of these, I believe, refer to a person who is not whole. Someone who has not found strength in his spirit, but has only created a front to fool himself and others.

[Musha]

"If your strength is only that which comes from vitality, your words and personal conduct will appear to be in accord with the Way, and you will be praised by others. But when you question yourself about this, there will be nothing to be said. The last line of the poem that goes, "When your own heart asks," is the secret principle of all the arts. It is said that it is a good censor."
From the 2nd Chapter, pg 88, 2nd to last paragraph.

A subnote completes the poem mentioned as, "To tell others that / It is a rumor / Will not do. / When your own heart asks / How will you respond?" from the "Gosen waka shu".

Hi all,

This may sound a little stupid, but when I read this passage. To me it seems to give the sense of say,
If you imagine a Samurai from the time of films like the 'Seven samurai' or 'Miyamoto Musashi'.
He is very proud and a good sword fighter maybe like a famous boxer now and every one comes to see his fights looks up to him and praises him when he wins.

But if he asks him self, why are they praising me? ,am I actually good? he does not know this. He does not understand. He is not actually strong until he knows him self 'the way'. He can not take just the words and praise of other people to tell him.

[Machismo111]

Hi all,

This may sound a little stupid, but when I read this passage. To me it seems to give the sense of say,
If you imagine a Samurai from the time of films like the 'Seven samurai' or 'Miyamoto Musashi'.
He is very proud and a good sword fighter maybe like a famous boxer now and every one comes to see his fights looks up to him and praises him when he wins.

But if he asks him self, why are they praising me? ,am I actually good? he does not know this. He does not understand. He is not actually strong until he knows him self 'the way'. He can not take just the words and praise of other people to tell him

Good point, that may be the case. Does anyone else have any insight to put forth? No one seems to want to discuss the Hagakure all that much cept Kaoru, Musha (musha musha musha hambagaa wa oishii...Er...sorry...that song's stuck in my head now :) ), and myself =). If thats the case then may I suggest that everyone has contributed their knowledge to this particular quote and its mystery be dispelled? Or would more people like a try to get their words in?

[Koushinkuma]

Well I have attempted to read the Hagakure but much of the language is lost on my pleistocene-era brain. And a lot of its treasure are also lost on me because I wasn't raised as a samurai or even as Japanese. However, the passage above immediately struck me as resounding with something my sensei is fond of saying, and while the specifics of "right" change somewhat from one culture to another, every culture does have a notion of right and wrong:

"If you are always thinking about doing the right thing, you will always do the right thing without thinking."

I think the passage above has to do with a cultivated sense of moral intuition, a moral compass, so to speak, that "little voice" that rewards you more than anything outside of yourself can when you do something good, correctly, excellently, and/or to the best of your ability; eg after executing a perfect round of kirkaeshi or men-uchi you just know that you have gotten a little bit better, like every cell in your body knows it too. Conversely, when you slip into sloppiness, are overcome with emotion and have a knee jerk angry reaction, hurt someone unintentionally (or intentionally), often you feel that little voice scolding you, and that sometimes hurts more than any "outside" voice would, since you know you have violated your own principles.

I guess this is just a slightly different interpretation of what someone above said, but I guess the main added element is that of training; that intuitive voice of your heart has to be taught to know right from wrong; most children do not know why it is wrong to pull a grasshopper's legs off, and many do it for fun; then an adult reprimands them with something like "how would you like it if someone pulled your legs off," which gets the kid thinking, that's true, I wouldn't. Hopefully this train of thought leads to a growing awareness of other people's importance outside of oneself, in turn contributing to that little voice chiming in when you are about to do something that would hurt or help another person, etc. I think the Hagakure is talking about this kind of trained awareness; and how the ultimate judgement comes from oneself--we are our own harshest critics, if we are on the right path.

[mystic_kendoka]

i just ordered the hagakure, i'll have it in 10 days, and ill be looking forward to contribute to this thread :D

[Machismo111]

Bump :) Time for a new quote methinks =) Kaoru, care to pick one out this time?

[Bear]

But if he asks him self, why are they praising me? ,am I actually good? he does not know this. He does not understand. He is not actually strong until he knows him self 'the way'. He can not take just the words and praise of other people to tell him.

I think within any art, self reflection upon the praise received by others will result ultimately in its dismissal. It's too short lived if you believe in it...and it's too empty after the glory. Only when you can match\compete with those much more talented than you will you gain a true sense of accomplishment or esteem. It's also at that point that its your inner voice telling you: F*$%'n A! and not you even caring\or wondering about others praise.

[Charlie]

I'm sorry I haven't jumped into this thread sooner. Hagakure has been a very special book to me. I have bought it twice and given it away twice, the second time after marking all my favorite sections (Wilson trans.). I bought it again recently and have been earmarking my favorite passages again.

My absolute favortie bit from Hagakure is this:

Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like. But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood.

Personally, I like to sleep. And I intend to appropriately confine myself more and more to my living quarters and pass my life away sleeping.

[Halcyon]

My absolute favortie bit from Hagakure is this:

Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like. But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood.

Personally, I like to sleep. And I intend to appropriately confine myself more and more to my living quarters and pass my life away sleeping.
Charlie,

That's one of my favorites too. Here's another one that's obliquely related to that:

“It is a good viewpoint to view the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this.”

[Compact Diss]

Second paragraph.:smiley:

"A helmet is usually thought to be very heavy, but when one is attacking a castle or something similar, and arrows, bullets, large rocks, great pieces of wood and the like are coming down, it will not seem the least bit so."

I like this quote and relate it to problems we have in life. When we are going through a hard period we feel like we are the only one with such troubles and it is hard to see that things someday may get better.
I think of the helmet as problems we have. It seems like a burden until things get worse or we see others with more trouble than ourselves, then our troubles do not seem as bad.
Someone told me this,
If we could put all of our problems on a table and share them with others and pick and choose from other people's problems, we would most likely take back our own. We are comfortable with our own problems, we do not want anyone else's.

By the way a great post and I intend to add to it often! Keep it going!

[Machismo111]

Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like. But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood.

Personally, I like to sleep. And I intend to appropriately confine myself more and more to my living quarters and pass my life away sleeping.

Despite how much I agree that we should spend time enjoying life, I have to say that I disagree with this quote =(. I once argued with a Satanist whose point was that we should do whatever makes us happy whatever it may be. However both his argument and the quote above ignore a sort of duty I feel we must have. I find it especially odd coming from a book about Samurai or the buddhist way of life.

Dont you think that spending your life sleeping would be a wasted life?

I personally believe that in order to truly be a servant to the good of mankind you must lose any notion of self. Things should mean less and less, and you should find enjoyment in everything. However if you're tired all the time, perhaps you should sleep more. I enjoy playing video games, but whenever I spend a whole day on my butt playing a game I always go to sleep feeling like I wasted a day, and I did, even though I enjoyed it.

[Charlie]

Well, good point. But as in so much of Tsunetomo's thought, I think there's a lot that's not being said in the quote that he may assume. In this particular quote, he cautions, "But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood." I think by this he means that though you should not waste time on things that are not gratifying to you, you cannot shirk your duties - remember, if it's one thing Tsunetomo is crazy about, it's duty (and death, of course). Tsunetomo says young people should not take the advice to mean they can fritter away their time on whatever they want; in fact, he says don't tell young people this at all!

There comes a time in one's life, I think, when one is able to prioritize his or her activities in a way s/he never has before, when one is able with clarity to really understand what's important and blow off the rest. This is a great gift of age, I think.

Love the helmet bit, too. It reminds me of the anecdote about the Zen student who complained to his master that "all we ever do is practice breathing, breathing is boring." The master dunked this kid into a trough of water and held him under until the student flailed desperately for life. When the master pulled the nearly-drowned student back up, he said something like, "You didn't think breathing was so 'boring' when you were underwater, now did you?"

A helmet seems cumbersome until it's saving your ass. LOL, words to live by.

[Halcyon]

another one of my favorites. anyone who has worked in a fairly large organization will be able to empathize with this one. in fact, one of the things about hagakure that i enjoyed most is the author's insight into behavior and conduct in group settings.

“People will become your enemies if you become eminent too quickly in life, and you will be ineffectual. Rising slowly in the world, people will be your allies and your happiness will be assured. In the long run, whether you are fast or slow, as long as you have people’s understanding there will be no danger. It is said that fortune that is forced upon you from others is the most effective.”

[Machismo111]

Well, good point. But as in so much of Tsunetomo's thought, I think there's a lot that's not being said in the quote that he may assume. In this particular quote, he cautions, "But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood." I think by this he means that though you should not waste time on things that are not gratifying to you, you cannot shirk your duties - remember, if it's one thing Tsunetomo is crazy about, it's duty (and death, of course). Tsunetomo says young people should not take the advice to mean they can fritter away their time on whatever they want; in fact, he says don't tell young people this at all!

Perhaps you're right. My first thought was that he must have had hidden assumptions. Of course, unless you're him, what good does it do unless he explains himself? I agree that it's most likely that he just didn't state some of his assumptions. But perhaps he's just a cantankerous old man who's just jealous of youthful people ;)

[Eldritch Knight]

I think that it has more to do with how young people are more apt to slack off. Young people who find their duty cumbersome and inconvenient follow it nonetheless for long periods of time until their duty becomes enjoyable. When they realize that they actually want to do their duty, then it becomes clear that life is about doing what your spirit wants.

[Twobitmage]

i just ordered the hagakure, i'll have it in 10 days, and ill be looking forward to contribute to this thread :D

Might I also suggest bushido shoshinzu?(or shoshinsu...bleh I cant spell)

its alot shorter and simpler, and it helps you understand hagakure more.

[Fenix]

Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like. But it is important never to tell this to young people as it is something that would be harmful if incorrectly understood.

Personally, I like to sleep. And I intend to appropriately confine myself more and more to my living quarters and pass my life away sleeping.
I believe there is another passage that mentions something that a person should be active, and dying in ur sleep is a bad way to go....it goes along those lines...i cant remember where it is...ill post if i find it...or if anyone else knows which one im talking about, feel free.