Scoring on the left kote

[Black Knight]

I am curious as to what the "official" answer is to the question of scoring on the left kote.

I have a copy of the March 23, 2000 FIK Rules, and Art. 13, Section 2 of the Subsidiary rules of Kendo Shiai and Shinpan, states that the left kote is valid when the shinai is held in any other kamae aside from chudan.

However, I have heard it said, and now seen it written in Mr. Holt's article for Kendo World, that the left kote is only a target when held above the chest. However, I cannot find such a rule in the current rules book. I believe it may be an older rule?

As I have been practicing nito for almost two years, I find this issue to be of frequent concern to me, as people often assume various "alternative" kamae to try to protect themselves from the nito player. As a result, they often expose the left kote in their modified stances. I would really like to know when that left kote becomes a valid target. The plain working of the section says any kamae other than chudan, which seems to be a very broad category. But what about Seigan-no-kamae, for instance?

Also, there was a player at a recent taikai who fought one-handed, with his shinai held in his left hand and held out in front of him at about solar plexus height with the kensen held almost vertical and diagonally towards his right side. I do not believe the shimpan at the event thought his left kote was a valid target.

Anyone have some hard rules language or other useful information to share on this issue?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think the key here is "alternative kamae" which means that transitional stuff doesn't count. You can't hit the left kote when it's on the way up for a swing, even if it goes past the mune. But if your opponent takes gyaku-chudan, then their left kote becomes valid even though it is below the mune. I'd be curious actually to know if their right kote becomes invalid in that case...

Seigan is just a chudan variant, left kote is not valid (unless of course it's gyaku seigan). Jodan kasumi, which I was using against Ernie a bit yesterday, I believe leaves the left kote vulnerable.

Unfortunately there is not any clearer language in the rules, and that goes for a lot of things. That's why it's worthwhile to do the shimpan seminars and get this stuff straightened out.

[hugo]

Neil,
In reference to the Nito Ryu, would it not follow then that the left kote is a plausible target, since the daito is held in the jodan posture?
I'm trying to get some clarity myself. Very few people from our dojo have much exposure to Nito Ryu, and come shiai time there is always some question.

[Black Knight]

Yes, there's no question that both kote are targets in nito standard "one-up, one, down" kamae (known as joge-tachi in the Musashikai book). The question is: when is the left kote valid when someone in itto is doing funky things?

And as Neil says, above, it's when they do funky things that are not chudan, but the rules aren't much clearer than that.

My remaining question is: where did the "higher than the chest" rule come from? An older version of the FIK rules?

If so, Mr. Holt's excellent article needs a small correction in that area...

[Neil Gendzwill]

If the opponent is in nito, both kote are always target. The higher than mune thing may be from an older ruleset. It's not hard to find the rules from the 80s around the web, maybe check there.

[Black Knight]

The 1988 rules say above the "pit of the stomach" and also variations from chudan.

Chapter 7 - DATOTSU (valid strikes/hits)

Article 16. The valid strike points on the body shall
be the following:
a. MEN (head). The forehead and the left and right
areas above the temple. The forehead is the cushion part
of the MEN and not the metal screen. However, the screen
may become a valid strike point if player throws their head back.
b. KOTE (hand). The area on the forearm covered by the
round patterned covering. Generally the right forearm,
the left forearm can also be a valid point during
CHUDAN-NO-KAMAE (left hand forward holding the sword);
JODAN-NO KAMAE
(a KAMAE where the SHINAI is held over the head);
WAKI-KAMAE (a KAMAE
where the SHINAI is held downward by the right foot);
NITO-NO-KAMAE (KAMAE using two SHINAI);
AGE-KOTE
(where the KOTE is held above the pit of the
stomach, except when executing DATOTSU);
and KAMAE
variations from CHUDAN. The top of the hand is not
a valid DATOTSU.
c. DO (torso). The left and right sides of the DO.
d. TSUKI (throat). The TSUKI-TARE (throat flap on the
MEN) and the breast section of the DO when JODAN-NO KAMAE
and NITO-NO-KAMAE are used.

Found at: http://www.rain.org/~galvan/rules.txt

[Inner_Silence]

what??
so mune-tsuki is valid against nito and jodan???

Ive heard that it isnt valid anymore

[Black Knight]

Read carefully! :) What I posted is the OLD rules from 1988. They were revised in 2000.

I cannot find the 2000 rules online, though.

[Inner_Silence]

is there a website wher one can download the UPDATED rules??

and a very important thing

NOT IN JAPANESE???

[Black Knight]

Not to my knowledge.

You can buy a copy of the current rules through the FIK/AJKF website or a reputable kendo retailer like ebogu.com, though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have the current rules at home. Fat lot of good it does me in DC.

[hugo]

what??
so mune-tsuki is valid against nito and jodan???

Ive heard that it isnt valid anymore

Tsuki to the mune is no longer valid. That rule was established to deter a lot of people from doing jodan too much. But since a jodan player just won the All Japan...

[H.Sandsleth]

What if people lift their hands over their head in sort of a feint like motion, or as a block? It is not part of a swing...

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think that's judge's discretion, but in my opinion if they haven't switched kamae, no go. OTOH if the guy is in the habit of attacking katate-men by transitioning into jodan temporarily, and his aite caught him on that, I'd be inclined to award it.

[perybo]

From the rules revised 2000

Subsidiary rules Article 13:
Datotsu-bui prescribed in Article 14 of the Regulations........

2. The target area of Kote shall be the right forearm (the left forearm, if the opponent holds Shinai with his or her left hand forward) in the case of Chudan-no-kamae, or the left and right forearms in case of other kamae.

So not very much light shead from that.

Sumi Sensei visited Sweden in August for a seminar and this question was asked. His answer was that as soon as you move your hands the left becomes a valid datotsu-bui. We asked again about specific height of the kote or anything like it, but no, as soon as you start moving.

Of course I can have misunderstood Senseis answer

[Sakabato]

Would it be safe to say that if someone pauses in Gedan for a period of time one could strike the left Kote and score a point? A short pause over a transitioning movement from Chudan to Gedan to X Waza.

[Santiman]

From the revised rules of December 7, 2006

[Subsidiary rules Article 13:
Datotsu-bui prescribed in Article 14 of the Regulations........

(2. The target area of Kote shall be the right forearm (the left forearm, if the opponent holds Shinai with his or her left hand forward) in the case of Chudan-no-kamae, or the left and right forearms in case of other kamae.)

No change from the year 2000 edition

[Anorymous]

But if your opponent takes gyaku-chudan, then their left kote becomes valid even though it is below the mune. I'd be curious actually to know if their right kote becomes invalid in that case...

^^What Santiman said above.

[verissimus]

Would it be safe to say that if someone pauses in Gedan for a period of time one could strike the left Kote and score a point? A short pause over a transitioning movement from Chudan to Gedan to X Waza.

If you can reach your opponent's left kote while he/she is in gedan, you could reach the right kote with greater ease, since it's closer. If your opponent is "hiding" the right kote by pointing the shinai to your left knee (for example, as is done in kata), then it seems to me that men is wide open.

[Sakabato]

If you can reach your opponent's left kote while he/she is in gedan, you could reach the right kote with greater ease, since it's closer. If your opponent is "hiding" the right kote by pointing the shinai to your left knee (for example, as is done in kata), then it seems to me that men is wide open.

Right! But he'd be expecting the attacks you mentioned rather than an attack to his left Kote. You'd have the element of surprise, but getting the point awarded is another story.

[Shinsengumi77]

Right! But he'd be expecting the attacks you mentioned rather than an attack to his left Kote. You'd have the element of surprise, but getting the point awarded is another story.

Expecting an attack doesn't make one impervious to it.

[D'Artagnan]

I think this is one of those things that although *is* written in black and white... can't really be written in black and white...

Essentially, from what I have seen, I personally think that the left Kote can be considered valid when it is struck at an appropriately opportune moment. Usually this is when it is moved closer to to you, but occasionally it can be other times too. I have seen Ippon awarded (by 8dans) to players for striking the left Kote, even when it is not 'above the mune' etc. but as for someone standing in Chudan or Gedan no Kamae, I can't really imagine how one could make a valid and crisp strike to the opponent's left Kote, certainly not to a level where it could be considered Ippon...

By way of example, it is a little grey to figure out whether rules cover the Kote in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFR2ejaMQ_o) match, as it is arguable as to what exact position Mr. Shodai is in at the time of being struck - is he 'transitioning'? is he in 'Hasso'? in the end it doesn't matter, because that Kote was amazing, and really had to be considered Ippon...

[rfoxmich]

Ippon; the only true definition is "That which causes at least two shinpan to raise flags of matching color". If you are asking when left kote is ippon from the point of view of a competitor...try to strike it and see if you manage to meet the definition of ippon above :-D

[Bokushingu]

So according to the 2006 rules, the shoto kote(left) is always open? hhmmm I'm curious...It can be cut even with it down and that should be enough to grant you ippon (providing there's zanshin)?

[JSchmidt]

So according to the 2006 rules, the shoto kote(left) is always open? hhmmm I'm curious...It can be cut even with it down and that should be enough to grant you ippon (providing there's zanshin)?

It always was....(you are talking about nito, right?)

[Sakabato]

but as for someone standing in Chudan or Gedan no Kamae, I can't really imagine how one could make a valid and crisp strike to the opponent's left Kote, certainly not to a level where it could be considered Ippon...

I'm curious! How come you would not be able to make a crisp strike on the opponent's left kote if they are in Gedan? What would stop you exactly? Or get in your way? Well, assuming they pause in Gedan long enough, say 2-3 seconds, rather than lowering into Gedan then jumping into X Waza. Or jumping back and forth between Gedan to Chudan.

Anyway, even if the strike is completely amazing... can it score on someone who always remains on Chudan? Meaning, no other stance was ever assumed, as in, you know, going to that stance and 'stopping' for a moment so it can be considered 'assumed'. The rules state you can't if they are in Chudan, but... if you know of some exceptions let me know.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have seen Ippon awarded (by 8dans) to players for striking the left Kote, even when it is not 'above the mune' etc.The wording is no longer "above the mune", it refers to adapting an alternate kamae. So my question to you is, were they in some kamae other than stock chudan?

[verissimus]

I'm curious! How come you would not be able to make a crisp strike on the opponent's left kote if they are in Gedan? What would stop you exactly? Or get in your way?

The additional distance? Reaching the left kote is an additional 0.5-1 step, all else being equal (maintaining form and intent).

[ShinKenshi]

I'm curious! How come you would not be able to make a crisp strike on the opponent's left kote if they are in Gedan? What would stop you exactly? Or get in your way? Well, assuming they pause in Gedan long enough, say 2-3 seconds, rather than lowering into Gedan then jumping into X Waza. Or jumping back and forth between Gedan to Chudan.

Anyway, even if the strike is completely amazing... can it score on someone who always remains on Chudan? Meaning, no other stance was ever assumed, as in, you know, going to that stance and 'stopping' for a moment so it can be considered 'assumed'. The rules state you can't if they are in Chudan, but... if you know of some exceptions let me know.My first thought was if someone stays in gedan long enough, why even bother with kote at all when other targets are much more available (men and tsuki)? For me, if in jigeiko or shiai my opponent decides to use gedan, I'd sooner close distance quickly and go for men or katate/morote tsuki. Also, why waste time going for a target that's not only unorthodox but also more difficult and, as verissimus said, farther away compared to migi-kote? Another thing to consider is the angle of the left kote during gedan is close to perpendicular to the floor, forcing any attempt to be made with a similar angle as yoko-men or hidari-do. If you're still not sure why striking hidari-kote on someone in gedan won't work, try it, see what happens, and compare it to a normal migi-kote.

[D'Artagnan]

The wording is no longer "above the mune", it refers to adapting an alternate kamae. So my question to you is, were they in some kamae other than stock chudan?

I admit it is certainly not something I see often, and have only seen it once or twice, but on at least one occasion it has been when the person was in a defensive posture (i.e blocking/covering), one that I *personally* wouldn't really consider a Kamae... But I guess it depends on your definition of what is a 'Kamae'... Also, what falls into being 'Chudan' and what doesn't is something of a grey area too... like with most things when it comes to judging matches, I think it really just depends on personal interpretation...


I'm curious! How come you would not be able to make a crisp strike on the opponent's left kote if they are in Gedan? What would stop you exactly? Or get in your way?

I personally don't think I could manoeuver the Shinai in such a way, that (considering the angles involved) would be able to produce a strike which would be both powerful and sharp enough to be considered Ippon. Also, as others have lready stated, I don't think it is a logical target either.

[Jiyoui]

If you can cut it properly, then cut it.
If the shinpans don't give you ippon, so be it.
Be content that you know you cut off your opponent's left wrist.

Unless you get Bassoku, then stop doing it :)

[Sakabato]

I admit it is certainly not something I see often, and have only seen it once or twice, but on at least one occasion it has been when the person was in a defensive posture (i.e blocking/covering), one that I *personally* wouldn't really consider a Kamae... But I guess it depends on your definition of what is a 'Kamae'... Also, what falls into being 'Chudan' and what doesn't is something of a grey area too... like with most things when it comes to judging matches, I think it really just depends on personal interpretation...



I personally don't think I could manoeuver the Shinai in such a way, that (considering the angles involved) would be able to produce a strike which would be both powerful and sharp enough to be considered Ippon. Also, as others have lready stated, I don't think it is a logical target either.

Thank you for that information Andy. It really is interesting to know that. Even if this information won't help me a whole lot, since I'm still a newb at Kendo, I'm still grateful to have learned it. Thank you so much!




If you can cut it properly, then cut it.
If the shinpans don't give you ippon, so be it.
Be content that you know you cut off your opponent's left wrist.

Unless you get Bassoku, then stop doing it

Yes, Sir! -Salute-

[Neil Gendzwill]

I admit it is certainly not something I see often, and have only seen it once or twice, but on at least one occasion it has been when the person was in a defensive posture (i.e blocking/covering), one that I *personally* wouldn't really consider a Kamae... But I guess it depends on your definition of what is a 'Kamae'... Also, what falls into being 'Chudan' and what doesn't is something of a grey area too... like with most things when it comes to judging matches, I think it really just depends on personal interpretation...Well if the other person pressured the aite into covering up, by which I mean raising the shinai up high enough to block men, then hit the left kote, I can see where it would be considered good positive kendo that exploited a clear opportunity.

I personally don't think I could manoeuver the Shinai in such a way, that (considering the angles involved) would be able to produce a strike which would be both powerful and sharp enough to be considered Ippon. Also, as others have lready stated, I don't think it is a logical target either.Kote only looks open when the aite is in gedan. If I drop my kensen, I'm looking for that kote to come in, then it's suriagi-men time. The sweep is nice and strong coming up from that position.

[Bokushingu]

It always was....(you are talking about nito, right?)

Yes I could see it, but wasn't sure i could receive ippon. didnt want to try to hit it and take the chance on getting popped by their katate men. i'm pretty sure i could pop it with katate kote...thanks

[Bokushingu]

Well did some experimenting. I played begining level Nito with very little to no conditioning(they choked up on their daito and no explosiveness to their katate waza). i found that i was able to tag that Shoto kote at will using Katate-Kote. It was almost too easy. however if they were aware that i was after that kote, they found it easy to nuki it and land a katate men if i went straight in. if i went in at an angle, they missed.

now, I need to try against an experienced & conditioned Nito Player.