Online Petition for HKK Sensei

[GMason]

I have been asked to post this here to try and get as many people as possible to sign it.

I am pretty sure most people will have heard of this by now. But If you could please sign it it would be greatly appriciated.

Attached as well as the petition is a copy of the an artical in Chinese & Japanese, also if you cut and paste the link you will be able to read an English version.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/hkka-kendo-coach.html

Thanks alot

[Spendius]

I am pretty sure most people will have heard of this by now.

I hadn't until now, the article (http://www.ibk-lawyers.com/leadcase/kendo.php) your link points to is not so explicit. Could anybody give more precisions ? I find this:


The plaintiff was struck on the on the head a few times by the defendant using a shinai (竹刀, a bamboo sword) and suffered injury to the cervical spine.

hard to believe.

[Raindrop]

I hadn't until now, the article (http://www.ibk-lawyers.com/leadcase/kendo.php) your link points to is not so explicit. Could anybody give more precisions ?

I did some googling and it was talked about on here before:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19334

Hmm could it be that the judge has a grudge (understandibly with chinese & koreans just loving Japan...) against a japanese art? :3

The case is ridiculous btw... See most people just give up after first bogu practice. This guy felt so hurt in his ego he decided to sue. Jebus!

I mean I had a headache for 3 days after my first bogu practice, but I just went back for more! :D

[GMason]

Beat me too it......

[ben]

Being HK, do you think they could provide an English version of the petition? I don't like signing things I can't read...

In the judges decision, he says he accepts that incorrect striking of the bogu could be "painful"? There is a great big world of difference between pain and injury.

b

[Spendius]

Thank you. I can sign it now.

[sirius1906]

Hmm could it be that the judge has a grudge (understandibly with chinese & koreans just loving Japan...) against a japanese art?

No way, Kongies love all things Japanesie. :D

Yes, the law suit was total BS, the judge is a retard. I just signed.

[tad]

I just read the title for the petition, and it wouldn't make sense under US rules (and i know it's in HK). At least in the US, you can't remove something from becoming case law.....which would be usable in other cases under stare decisis. You would have to either a) appeal b) have another case that went the other way c) change the law.

You can petition for c) but you can't petition to have a case stricken from the record.

Maybe you can in HK. Who knows. Strange petition anyway.

[DCPan]

Interestingly enough, the person suing has pre-existing neck injury from falling off a horse:

http://www.hkdailynews.com.hk/news.php?id=6389

頸椎曾因墮馬受傷

據原告一方指，韋業顯在1996及1999年學習騎馬時曾墮馬，令頸椎受傷，頸椎有退化迹象。他於2003 年10月到香港劍道協會學習劍道，學習半年以來一直沒有問題。至2004年4月13日，韋首次穿着重6公斤 的劍道防具上課，他與五位同學組成小組，練習用竹劍互相拍擊對方戴上頭盔的頭。期間被告行經，要求韋業顯站 立不動，然後用竹劍拍打他的頭作示範。被告打了韋四至五次，令他感到暈眩，事後感到頸痛並證實頸部受傷，須 接受推拿等物理治療。
資料顯示，原訴人韋業顯（46歲）現為律師事務所顧問律師，且為體育界名人韋基舜的姪兒；答辯人黃寶杰為香 港劍道協會會長兼總教練，擁有黑帶六段資格。雙方律師早前有協議原訴人若被判勝訴，可獲26萬元賠償。新 報記者蕭才報道

But the article also says the coach used him to demonstrate and chopped at his neck, not head....

法官施均年舉例指出，在事發時的情況衝量，法庭較接納韋的證供，指黃找他作示範並大力以竹劍斬向他頸部數下 ，他又認為黃指其他學員及後練習時亦有斬向韋的頸部之證供，有矛盾之處，故拒絕接納。

So, not quite sure what's up...but the guy suing is an idiot for doing kendo if he has pre-existing neck injuries that's deteriorating over time.

[tad]

Interestingly enough, the person suing has pre-existing neck injury from falling off a horse:

http://www.hkdailynews.com.hk/news.php?id=6389

頸椎曾因墮馬受傷

據原告一方指，韋業顯在1996及1999年學習騎馬時曾墮馬，令頸椎受傷，頸椎有退化迹象。他於2003 年10月到香港劍道協會學習劍道，學習半年以來一直沒有問題。至2004年4月13日，韋首次穿着重6公斤 的劍道防具上課，他與五位同學組成小組，練習用竹劍互相拍擊對方戴上頭盔的頭。期間被告行經，要求韋業顯站 立不動，然後用竹劍拍打他的頭作示範。被告打了韋四至五次，令他感到暈眩，事後感到頸痛並證實頸部受傷，須 接受推拿等物理治療。
資料顯示，原訴人韋業顯（46歲）現為律師事務所顧問律師，且為體育界名人韋基舜的姪兒；答辯人黃寶杰為香 港劍道協會會長兼總教練，擁有黑帶六段資格。雙方律師早前有協議原訴人若被判勝訴，可獲26萬元賠償。新 報記者蕭才報道

But the article also says the coach used him to demonstrate and chopped at his neck, not head....

法官施均年舉例指出，在事發時的情況衝量，法庭較接納韋的證供，指黃找他作示範並大力以竹劍斬向他頸部數下 ，他又認為黃指其他學員及後練習時亦有斬向韋的頸部之證供，有矛盾之處，故拒絕接納。

So, not quite sure what's up...but the guy suing is an idiot for doing kendo if he has pre-existing neck injuries that's deteriorating over time.

Well he was proved not to be an idiot. He won! Perhaps the judge was an idiot (does a judge just award damages in HK?). But this dude got around USD $25000 out of it.

[DCPan]

Well he was proved not to be an idiot. He won! Perhaps the judge was an idiot (does a judge just award damages in HK?). But this dude got around USD $25000 out of it.

Really? I'd like to think my neck is worth more than $25000. :D

[tad]

Really? I'd like to think my neck is worth more than $25000. :D

well perhaps he was an idiot for doing kendo. But the suing part was clearly not idiotic at the end of the day.

Anyway, seems like a senseless petition.

[Butsushin]

I happily signed the petition - although feel quite ambivalent whteher it can (legally) make any real change in this particular matter. Being a lawyer myself, I cannot resist to express my sincere regret for those living in such legal environment. Injuries - sometimes serious ones - do happe in any sports, and if due care and attention to protection was taken, you CANNOT bring such lawsuit under our (continental) legal system. And you should not be allowed in my opinion either. This is 100% BS.

Butsushin

[sirius1906]

Let's petition to hit the guy some more. This time, without bogu. :D

[tad]

I know as kendo folks, we're naturally going to go to the side of the sensei.

I think there is something to consider though. There are negligent kendo sensei out there. As in teachers who treat beginners in a way that could be dangerous. I'm not talking about just hard practice which I'm a big proponent of, but actual dangerous kendo. I like to work beginners hard too. But when I find out that someone has something like asthma, I force them to get a doctor to tell them that hard workouts aren't going to kill them....or if either they need to be treated differently or kendo just isn't for them. Just as an example, my wife has sometimes complained that some sensei hit her hard enough to give her some serious headaches. She's a 3-dan and pretty rugged, but she's also a woman who weighs around 120 lb.

Of course you get issues with people who hide or just don't tell you about conditions, and it's hard to get around that. Usually you want to get a waiver signed by everyone. In the US, since sports aren't considered to be "in the public interest" like a hospital, (or ironically like a car repair shop) adhesion contracts are usually allowed. These exculpatory clauses aren't going to protect a teacher who is really needlessly dangerous though.

Before passing judgment on this guy who started kendo (who could very well be in the wrong), I'd want to know whether the sensei was actually at fault.

Again, I'm just going from the information you guys have provided since I can't read the Chinese part.

[vyung]

The full court judgement can be viewed here:

http://www.hklii.hk/cgi-hklii/disp.pl/hk/jud/eng/hkcfi/2008/HCPI000056_2005-62769.html?query=%7e+kendo

I read on some Hong Kong newspaper that the injured lawyer is the cousin of a very famous and prominent sports commentator in Hong Kong. Mmmm....

[Tort-Speed]

Sorry for the - better late than never? - comment but just found out that a former Sempai lost a court case filed by a Kendo beginner. I feel as others have suggested, that the judgment is "baka" - I did Kendo with instructor Wong who was found guilty of over-whacking the greedy lawyer on the "men." Mr. Wong is so gentle I was surprised he got to 6th Dan.
In fact, many gals have found many men in HK to be real wimp types, thus
it's usually women who are company managers etc. as they are stronger especially mentally and spiritually, and can use their brains to THINK. Defendant Wong had experience training in a family-owned and run dojo in Japan and was well-versed in not only etiquette but how to teach. The pitiful Plaintiff knew he had a pre-existing problem due to which it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that being hit on the head - probably also doing strong fumikomi - would not be a form of cervical rehab!
The judge saying the others being students must have hit lighter than the instructor, obviously hasn't a clue and to my knowledge no expert in Kendo was present to advise. My worst bruising, and bell-ringing mens come from
fellow students, especially beginners: it's almost unavoidable for enthusiastic people to use as much power as they can muster...and with the right hand (being right-handed). This also results in an incorrect angle between the shinai and striking point, particularly "feelable" on the front of the "men,"
increasing The Big Ouch.
Also, the tenugui - tough to tie for beginners and others who may try putting
it on for them - may have been folded such that it made a ridge between the greedy one's head and helmet, thus irritating his forehead.
I'm sorry for the injury but sorrier for the sum Wong was told to pay, the affect on his life, and possibly to Kendo and other Martial Way. Would that all facilities require users sign a disclaimer - doing so might have made the no-brain lawyer think before taking up the bamboo. Beginners in Japan are strongly "recommended" when signing up, to purchase purpose- and cheap ($16/year) medical insurance that covers in-practice-sustained injury and for some types, also when traveling the route to/from the dojo they specify on that insurance form.