What do you think of kata?

[Kuri]

There's the poll on how often you practice kata. How about what you think of them.

Discuss.....

[John W]

Well I have voted that I love kata. Perhaps enjoy kata rather than love it would be better, but oh well....:p

Anyway I could yarn on at great length about the benefits of kata but I think the main ones for me are..

*It improves my posture.
*It improves my level of zanshin/concentration.
*It teaches me correct distances.
*It improves my footwork.
*Gives me a better sense of timing.
*Teaches me to respect others.

I think most people who enjoy kendo will enjoy kata?

Fair comment?
:)

[JSchmidt]

Distance, timing and it 'explains' some of the more advanced techniques.

Jakob

[Confound]

Originally posted by John W

*It improves my posture.
*It improves my level of zanshin/concentration.
*It teaches me correct distances.
*It improves my footwork.
*Gives me a better sense of timing.
*Teaches me to respect others.



I agree to all of the above. As for respecting others, i'm notoriously poor at that. mostly because those 'others' usually end up being the people who steal my lunch, or cut me off at intersections, or 'borrow' my bogu bag and mysteriously 'forget' that it was borrowed.

c

[James]

Hey Confound,
do you sometimes feel like you're the only real person and everyone else is a robot?

just wonderin'
:D

[Charlie]

At my nidan testing (I passed!) sensei said, "Kendo is kata. Kata is kendo." Nuff said, right? I'm also discovering that some of the things I have been practicing in kata for years have applications in shinai kendo and vice-versa. For example, the parrying in number 3 has really helped me develop the wrist-snapping necessary for quick-kote and sashi-men, and for harai attacks.

[KhawMengLee]

I think Kata is very important to Kendo. Not refering to the traditional links with kenjutsu, I'll leave that out.

There is a lot we can learn from Kata that can be incorporated into kendo.

My Sensei trains us in detail on each kata and then later we learn to incorporate it into kendo.

Examples:

Ipponme- lightspring back then counter with a men cut.

Nihonme- Goad opponent into making a kote cut, spring back and counter with men.

Sanbonme- good for learning to keep centre.

Yohonme- good to parry men cuts then counter.

we haven't practiced beyond this.

Kata can teach us valuable lessons and should not be dismissed.

Meng

[stakenaka]

Originally posted by John W

It improves my posture.
It improves my level of zanshin/concentration.
It teaches me correct distances.
It improves my footwork.
Gives me a better sense of timing.
Teaches me to respect others.



Wow. Couldn't put it better. If you remove all of the 'It's 'My's, and 'Me's, then you would have the perfect opening to a chapter of Kendokata! :)

[akihiro]

Indeed, well put John W!

It has been my experience that many people seem to like kata at first, then ignore it and then later rediscover it when they start understanding what kendo is.

My guess is that a beginner thinks kata is cool because you are using a bokuto and they get to do the 'cool' kamaes they see in the movies. Then when they start wearing bougu they think it's a waste of time because they are not striking their partner and also since it is choreographed, it doesn't benefit their kendo. Later, they begin to realize that kata is not just mere forms. What John W stated becomes evident to them.

I've also noticed that people who perform kata well, generally have very clean kendo.

[Kenshi]

Ippon-me - beating technique with better technique

Nihon-me - beating the opponent but wounding them rather than killing them

Sambon-me - completely beating/controlling the opponent without wounding them (compassion and mercy)

Kodachi 1-3 are in the same flavour

... or something like that ... !

Sometimes I do bokuto practise, where all waza are done with bokuto and kote only.

We practise kata sometimes every class ... 30 mins or so.

[olaf]

A question for you fellas: what would you say is the most effective way to introduce and teach kata to beginners?

I think there are multiple issues to be addressed: 1. how to convince people that kata is actually constructive, in learning more about the dynamics of the sword, and in illustrating techniques that could be translated into useful waza in regular Kendo. 2. how to go about teaching kata from scratch: should you step the beginner through each kata, one at a time, step by step? Or should you take a more macro- view, and allow them to familiarize themselves with how all the kata proceed first, so they have a good idea of the "bigger picture"?

The reason I ask is that I think many of my peers, when first starting Kendo, tended to value kata practice very little, for the reason that it isn't "practical", or that it doesn't "fit" into any larger scheme of all things Kendo...

[cklin]

Olaf:

In regards to teaching beginners kata, I think that you've already answered your own Question 1. In my experience, beginners like kata b/c it's more like chambara (and that's ok at that stage), so if you emphasize exactly what you said re: learning the dynamics of a sword and how the forms help in regular kendo waza, they'll tend to believe you. In my experience, I don't believe I've met a beginner who's immediately doubted the importance of kata.

As to Question 2: in my dojo, the first 7 kata are performed for the beginners as an introduction. Then, each kata is broken down into the uchidachi and shidachi sets, each being learned separately (with no partner) with an emphasis kinda like in ku-kan datotsu suburi/waza. Of course, the relevance and points of each kata are also explained. Then when they have the motions more or less memorized, we pair them up. Repeat for each kata.

This methodology seems to work OK.

[Kuri]

Has anyone ever practiced kata wearing bogu? I've done it twice in total. It was an interesting experience actually striking the target. Although, the dynamics are slightly different because you're using a shinai rather than a bokuto (ie. straight vs curved blade, especially no 3)

I wouldn't recommend it for beginners, they may try to hit their parner next time they do it without armour. :eek:

[Kent Enfield]

Originally posted by Kuri
Has anyone ever practiced kata wearing bogu? I've done it twice in total. It was an interesting experience actually striking the target. Although, the dynamics are slightly different because you're using a shinai rather than a bokuto (ie. straight vs curved blade, especially no 3)I've done this about twice. Yeah, things are a little different, but it definitely makes some points much more strongly than regular kata geiko. It makes learning some of the timings, particularly of the nuki waza, easier, and it encourages uchitachi to make honest attacks, so that shitachi has to do his part correctly rather than relying on uchitachi to not strike him out of fear of injuring him. It also emphasizes the whole "kata kore kendo, kendo kore kata" aspect of it.

Originally posted by Kuri
I wouldn't recommend it for beginners, they may try to hit their parner next time they do it without armour. :eek: Isn't that what uchitachi is supposed to do?

[alexpollijr]

Truth.

For the uchidachi, 'holding his blow', out of fear of striking the partner, is the best way to fail grading tests. The uchidachi MUST really try to strike the shidachi. And the shidachi HAS to respond.

So, even with you have to do the cut slower than normal, it is still supposed to reach, or it's not kata, it's a dance, as said by Ogawa sensei, 8th dan, in recent visit to Brazil.

[Achilles]

You know, it's pretty isolating. I constantly find my opinions on the exact opposite of the fence from the rest of you.

Still, that won't stop me from being honest. I respect you too much for that. Kata bores me. I don't see the need for it. I only do it because everyone else does and because it's required for grading. Even then, I find myself practicing the forms about a month before I know I have to test. I'd much rather fight.

[Charlie]

Yeah, Olaf, it's been my limited experience that beginner's tend to really love the kata. For one thing, a lot of them, at least where I am, got into kendo because they wanted to learn how to "sword fight." So now this looks like the real deal! Also, sometimes they are grateful to be doing something a little more cerebral or relaxed than shinai kendo, which is exhausting!

I was taught first the "story" of the kata, then it was broken down. Then you do it a zillion times, even though it looks poor, then you start trying to fine-tune it. Over time, of course.

Thoughts on applications:

Ippon me - men nuki men

Nippon me - sort of like kote-suriage-kote, or kote-nuki-kote. Also teaches a lot about changing the angle of attack, changing the angle of seme.

sanpon me - wrist snaps. Also, tsuki, and seme pressure.

yonpon me - still thinking about it

gopon me - defense and counterattack against jodan

roku - kote-suriage-kote

shichi - Men-nuki-do. Classic.

These are just sketchy thoughts. I've been really appreciating Kendo World's article on "The Philosophy of Kata."

[Kuri]

Originally posted by Charlie
Thoughts on applications:
.....
yonpon me - still thinking about it
I think it's mostly about ma. If your steps are normal size, then you'll end up being too close.

[olaf]

Well, Kuri, all the kata are ultimately about ma-ai, aren't they? When I was first taught kata, my sensei used to emphasize that ippome is actually the most difficult kata form to master - because both players are in jodan, their regular conception of distance is dramatically altered, if not temporarily gone. And like you said, I guess pretty much the same can be said of yonhomme.

[Kuri]

Olaf, I totally agree. One of the most difficult aspects is to consistently finish where you started, without using any floor markings. That is obviously connected with ma and the interaction of both people practising.

[mingshi]

Achilles, I think I'll be the second one to go against kata...

Consider where Kendo no Kata is from... A police-ryu, selection of 10 sword forms out of 200+ Ryuha/school all over Japan around the time. Do you remember what is in a Ryu? At the very beginning you train for the sword techniques using a bokuto, then you blah blah blah became a samurai using a real sword. The basics of sword techniques are Kata=Form. So all day everyday in those 200+ Koryu Kenjujsu Dojo, you practise your Kata! They do not do modern Kendo with armour!

Now all day you can only think of being in armour and fight with your shinai... (and a bad concept) for Shiai=real dueling... Apart from the few Ryuha that use armour, in those days, you goddamn only do kata! Only kata (plus suburi and daily chores)! No fights!

Kendo no Kata also exposes a lot of the unrealistic movement of modern Kendo, and many impossible situations when you use a shinai. For example:
#1. It's the first Kendo no Kata, yet it starts both sides in Jodan. Now people in ikkyu have to learn this, but they cannot possibly go Jodan when they do jikeiko etc. Plus when do you do Zanshin in Hidari-Jodan??
#3. Again another Kata for ikkyu with Tsuki... Now who said no Tsuki for kids? And someone mentioned the curve. So when you do for jikeiko and someone tsuki you, do you go for the curve-pull and think "Ummm, if this is a real sword...."?
#4. When would you see people going Hasso, and in response you actually go Waki??
#7. Nuki-do... which leg go first? Which leg stamp in Kendo? AND why kneel down? Okay I know it's Koryu teaching, but do you kneel down in jikeiko?
#8-10. Basically, in modern Kendo you cannot fight with a shinai in Kodachi's length (and it's not Nito!). And as in #9+#10, you cannot grab your opponent's arm in Kendo!

Would someone give any comments to the above confusion because I think if I ever tell all these to senior Sensei... They'll fail every grading of mine... Now I'm pretty fed up with the concepts of Kata, especially when I occationally practice the more realistic sword-using Koryu Kenjujsu, which uses various kamae and cuts on places beside the 4 kendo targets.

And last but not least, the 3-steps-in-5-steps-out procedures make Kendo no Kata very B.O.R.I.N.G.!! You have to consider maai 3 steps before? Because you expect the opponent to cut after 3 steps in the same distance?

Oh no... I've a really bad feeling about failing my kata part of grading....

[olaf]

This is precisely where I was pushing the discussion...as Kuri and Charlie pointed out earlier, there are many practical elements to kata that can be translated into Kendo dynamics.

Indeed, you do not ever have two people with solid wooden swords "going at it" against each other in a series of pre-coreographed moves. But each kata - aside from illustrating the more macro-kendo concepts such as ma-ai and zanshin - is essentially a breakdown of the different parts that comprise many basic waza. Read Charlie's earlier post for accurate details.

As to your counter-arguments against each of the kata forms:
#1: Right, you rare have two ikkyu players squaring off in jodan. But kata wasn't crafted specifically for kendoists of a specific rank or playing style. It demonstrates the dyamics of a nuki men oji-waza.

#3: Not so much about kids experimenting with tsuki. It's more about seme, and constantly pressuring your opponent, driving forward, directing the force of your seme towards a tsuki strike. Just like when you go in for a men strike - you seme tsuki, but you don't really skewer your opponent. After all, why does the uchidachi "lose" in #3? The shidachi is pressuring forward too strong and too fast for him to "keep up" or defend against.

#4: Like Kuri, I think this is a lesson in ma-ai. When is it appropriate to strike? Consider how difficult it is to execute #4 correctly...

#7: Nuki-do. Indeed, uchidachi executes a large men begining with his left foot. The emphasis here is not on the uchidachi's strike but on the pupil's response. Classic, textbook nuki-do. Granted, you usually don't kneel down and go into waki-kamae for zanshin.

#9, 10: I just recently learned these so maybe I'm not exactly an authority figure to speak on them. Regardless, kata teaches you the dynamics of engaging in combat with a sword. And in a life and death situation where you are only armed with a short-sword, grabbing your opponent by the arm to inhibit him from striking with his sword may be a good idea. But even in #8-10 there are many elements that can be translated into regular shiai kendo - kaeshi waza in #8, #9, and deflecting incoming strikes in #10. Kaeshi-waza is kaeshi waza - it matters not whether you do it with a kodachi, a katana, or a shinai. The dynamics are all equivalent: you take all the energy an opponent strikes at you, and you hurl it all back at him, in the process defecting his shot.

The 3, 5 steps procedure...I don't know about this one. Granted it may be a bit monotonous, but there's naturally some ritualistic element to kendo kata.

[stakenaka]

Mingshi,
Partly one reason why kendo was invented was to allow people to hit one another without killing each other or seriously injuring each other. The problem through the early Edo period was that simply practicing Kata didn't cultivate the correct mindset.

Now back to the point: to correct this difficiency, many of the ryu-ha used shinai and practiced their techniques (eg: Jikishinkage-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, Hikita-ryu, Itto-ryu). This practice has been discontinued today. So yes, in the old days, the shinai (in some schools, the armor), was used to practice kenjutsu, and no, they did not only do kata.

Now about Kata itself. When kata is performed correctly, timing, seme, and awareness are all cultivated. I highly suggest you to watch the Zen-Nihon-Kendo-Renmei (All Japan Kendo Federation) tapes on Kendo Kata. It is apparent that the two people performing the kata have superb timing and awareness, able to react to movements and intent from one another.

Now about the koryu-kenjutsu. If you don't have the timing, intent, and awareness, you will get HURT! I have seen people get hit on the head with Naginata and Bokuto, as well as the chest, armpit, hands, feet, and knees in kata because they didn't have the correct intent and awareness.

In short, the reasons stated earlier in this thread are the reasons why one studys kendo-kata.

[Achilles]

You can't give kata too much empasis as to what can be learned from it. I mean, come on, there's a HUGE difference between martial art and martial skill.

In *real* kata, you step on the guys sword, smash him in face with your hilt, then bite his throat out. It isn't pretty or clean, but it's real war. I'm sure real sword duels wound up like most fights do in real life 80% of the time, with both combantants rolling around on the ground pulling each others hair. . . .

[alexpollijr]

Strangely I don't think so.

But I also do not overestimate the martial value of the ten kata of kendo or the twelve of iaido. The links to koryu traditions, to me, are faint.

But anyway, I think very highly of kendo kata, because they simbolize the essence of the art.

[stakenaka]

I guess should have been more explicit: Kendo-kata does NOT teach kenjutsu. However it does teach timing, awareness, and seme, and the other things stated earlier, which do help your kendo skill.

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by mingshi
Achilles, I think I'll be the second one to go against kata...


Would someone give any comments to the above confusion because I think if I ever tell all these to senior Sensei... They'll fail every grading of mine... Now I'm pretty fed up with the concepts of Kata, especially when I occationally practice the more realistic sword-using Koryu Kenjujsu, which uses various kamae and cuts on places beside the 4 kendo targets.



Well, You do point out something baout it. But, once you came to udnerstand Kata (even the first 7 with Daito), these are some of the basic foundamental of kendo wasa. Like KhawMengLee point out before. each kata highlight certain portion of different waza. and these can also be used in real life situation. eg. ipponmen, is like men nuke men, and 2nd kata is kote nuke kote, 3rd kata can teach you about defending from tsuki...... etc etc etc.... You just sometime need to think about it abit and apply it into your kendo.

In fact, someone i knew in the psat actually likes kata more than kendo training....

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by Achilles

In *real* kata, you step on the guys sword, smash him in face with your hilt, then bite his throat out. It isn't pretty or clean, but it's real war. I'm sure real sword duels wound up like most fights do in real life 80% of the time, with both combantants rolling around on the ground pulling each others hair. . . .

I'm not quite sure that will be the case. most of the people would hope to kill each other a.s.a.p. I would definately not going to give the opponent the chance to get close to me. When he within cutting range, you would

[iwatekenshi]

From my experience in Japan if you forget about doing kata you can forget about improving your kendo and moving up in dan rank. Failing to learn kata gets most people in not passing. Practice now so you can achieve your dan dream or whatever that may be :).

[Kuri]

Originally posted by Achilles
In *real* kata, you step on the guys sword, smash him in face with your hilt, then bite his throat out. It isn't pretty or clean, but it's real war. I'm sure real sword duels wound up like most fights do in real life 80% of the time, with both combantants rolling around on the ground pulling each others hair. . . .

I totally agree with you. In a real combat, you'll do whatever it takes. Whether you can apply the kata to real applications is something everyone has a different opinion on (see all posts). I see it as pursuing a "way", and kata is just a reminder of its roots.

If I was going to use a sword as a true weapon, to kill, I would join a kenjutsu ryu and learn how to use it efficiently and effectively.

[Charlie]

Sometimes you don't see the value of something until you've done it for a few years. Then, one day, you smack yourself in the forehead and go, "Ohhhhhh!" This is the origin of Musashi's advice about letting yourself be the needle and thread and your instructor be the tailor.

I think whoever said that the kendo-no-kata are to remind kendo-ka of their koryu roots is onto something there. As well as transmit technique and philosophy, the purpose of the kendo-no-kata was, as I understand it, so that kendo-ka wouldn't forget how to weild a bokuto! I think it's understood that serious students of the sword will follow kendo and let the kata serve as an introduction to a koryu. The kendo-no-kata and setei-gata serve the same purpose, as a bridge between shinai kendo and kenjutsu/iaido.

[Justy]

Originally posted by inner_cent
In fact, someone i knew in the psat actually likes kata more than kendo training....

In our dojo, kata -is- kendo training. We do approximately 60% with the shinai, 40% with the bokuto. And personally, I enjoy the kata more than the shinai practice.

Then again, I just got my bogu this week, so the way I percieve shinai practice is about to change dramatically... :)

[mingshi]

Thank you people. I sincerely appreciate your advice. There're certain points I still do not understand, but for the moment I'd say, let it be.

Yes, Kendo no Kata teaches timing. Yes it teaches maai. Yes it teaches awareness. But now it's obvious that people lack maai and stuff when they're in armour with shinai. (may I say, blame the length+shape of shinai). I'm not saying Kata is useless --it's very good by itself. Of course, it's Koryu teachings, basing on real sword techniques. But if you...if I link it into Kendo keiko....say #7, I'll be very confused on the footwork for a nuki-do cut.

I object to the notion of Kata=Kendo. I do not think anyone with pure Kendo-no-kata training can suddenly switch to Kendo keiko. At least I'm sure that person will lose on tai-atari/tsuba-zeriai/any Hiki-waza. Before I start Kendo, I briefly touched kenjujsu (and still occationally practice some)... when I get in armour I was thinking... "Umm, cut his knees, cut his neck, thrust his belly"...

Sorry for all these. I'll just let it be :(

[Kuri]

Originally posted by mingshi
Sorry for all these. I'll just let it be :(
Don't you dare let it be. It's thought and opinions like yours that makes people think. It forces them to evalute the ideology, usefulness and practicality of such things. If you don't question, then no one will tell you. Especially the nitty gritty stuff. And sometimes, there is no black or white answer, just a lot of grey. :cool:

Blind faith can be dangerous thing.

[Achilles]

I understand that kata teaches all these things, but you learn all of them more directly by practicing them in bogu with shinai. Want to learn maai? Kata teaches it, but it's far better to do strict maai drills. Want to learn timing? Kata teaches it, but it's far better to practice your timing (like debana kote drills). Want to learn posture? Kata teaches it, but it's far better to do suriashi and practice your posture.

Kata is like so many other things in kendo: Utterly tradition bound, questionable in its value, and surviving (I think) largely because nobody is willing to really question it, for fear of being perceived as impatient, immature, disobedient or *shudder* un-Japanese. This kind of blind adherence to tradition and failure to question teachers and leaders is exactly what lead to the present financial scandal rocking the AUSKF. Just because someone happens to be a.) Japanese and b.) older than you doesn't necessarily make him *right*.

Kata is a beautiful dance, but so is the waltz if it's done right. When I want to learn to dance, I'll take up dance classes.

[KhawMengLee]

Achilles, What is Kendo then? A sport and nothing more?

Would you have Kendo move into the realms of something like American proffesional boxing? Pro-football?

If the traditions, or useless aspects of kendo annoy you, why not just train to be the best fighter? Don't bother with gradings or kata...just fight and be the best.

Meng

[cklin]

Questions of "right-ness" aside, Achilles, how much have you practiced kata? I'm asking this as an honest question.

I think it is difficult to judge such things as useful or useless, unless one has done it for a while.

Practically speaking, when you do anything sans bogu (and more slowly), it's much easier to see what you're doing wrong and to correct it, right?

As to being tradition-bound, everybody talks about kendo tradition (me too), but sometimes we forget that kendo tradition is really short! And the set of kata is not as unyielding to change as you might think -- they, too, have evolved over time. Two examples: (1) it used to be that you do fumikomi as the shidachi (after deflecting uchidachi's tsuki and responding w/ a tsuki). But then ZNKR took that out; (2) in nanahonme, the uchidachi used to respond to shidachi's wakigamae with the same, but now that's been taken out too. Well, I guess I'm just trying to illustrate how kata evolve too.

But I agree with you on that blind faith is stupid.

I'm curious, how much importance does kumdo place on kata (I don't recall the Korean name for it)?

[stakenaka]

Kata is partly a dance, but it is not a blind sequence of movements and strikes. Kata is not only a physical exercise (ie, just going throught the movements without thinking or feeling), but should be a mental exercise as well.
For example, in number 1, the uchidachi should be pressured into hitting men by the shidachi. In number 3, the uchidachi should be pressured back by the strong seme of the shidachi following the attack.
It is true that you can learn many of these things with shinai-geiko, but never underestimate what can be learned in kata.

[kendokamax]

««« But if you...if I link it into Kendo keiko....say #7, I'll be very confused on the footwork for a nuki-do cut.

I learned that you can use the same footwork(left foot going foward) in real keiko: for kaeshi dou and I guess for nuki dou too.

It's a quite nice technique with the left foot leading foward after the cut.

[Achilles]

KhawMengLee,

Yes, to me kumdo is 90% sport. The *more* part comes in occaisionally in the tightness of the community in which I practice, but there is little that kumdo does to develop my character that simply being a decent Christian doesn't already do. Kumdo is a sport to me, not a form of psychotherapy.

I would like to see kumdo in the olympics, and I would also like to see it gain the same commercial flavor (and popularity) of world cup soccer. Not American football, however, but that's only because I think that American sports in general are insular.

Cklin, honest answer. I hold 1-dan in kendo, so that means I have mastered and displayed mastery of kata 1-5. Koreans do have a kata, known as the "Bongook Kumbup", but it is barely emphasized at all. In all my time with my dojang thus far, I have yet to hear it so much as mentioned.

[kendokamax]

To me kata are not very fun..It bores me a little, I can't really do any of them very well.. but I know that in the future when I will not be able to able to participate in shiai kendo as often I will start being a bit more spiritual about kendo..so I guess I will end up and love doing kata and some Iaido too..

For me there is many steps that I need to take in my kendo career!....Now i'm young so I need to focus how to learn proper attacks. Using only oji waza and all that stuff I will learn it when i'm too old to move.

[JSchmidt]

" I hold 1-dan in kendo, so that means I have mastered and displayed mastery of kata 1-5"

Sorry, I disagree..1st dan means you can do kata 1-5 without mistake. Mastery happens at a different level :)

Jakob

[ben]

"Do your kata like shiai and your shiai like kata."

These are the words (or close to them) of Jeff Marsten in KW #2 on going for his 7 dan.

I used this quote at a recent training thinking I knew what it meant, but as it came out my mouth, I realised *exactly* what it meant.

Unfortunately if I tried to put that *exactly* into words it would probably just sound like "do you kata like shiai and your shiai like kata."

:)

b

(PS - excellent thread Chris. Took me a while to get 'round to it. ;))

[Confound]

"I have mastery of kata 1-5"
What a charged comment. My sensei says that he still hasn't mastered the kata yet, and he's a 7th dan. his kata are beautiful, i've seen him do them with an iaito, and they're stunning. yet he still finds flaws in them.

Ben, this Jeff Marsten fellow really had a good point. His words about kata and shiai really ring true for me too. thanks.

c

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Achilles

(...) Kata is like so many other things in kendo: Utterly tradition bound, questionable in its value, and surviving (I think) largely because nobody is willing to really question it, for fear of being perceived as impatient, immature, disobedient or *shudder* un-Japanese.

[/B]

Despite the fact that I enjoy practicing katas and I do find them usefull (if not for technique then simply for their relaxing effects) I totally agree with Achilles statement. We must be very carefull not to blindly follow everything that comes out of the mouths of elder kendokas. Kendo has evolved and will continue to evolve. Do I hope that the katas, zanshin and the amateur nature of kendo continue to exist? Absolutly. Do I think that I'm not allowed to question age old doctrine simply because it is "age old"? Never. There is emminently more danger in being "lemmings" then in willing to examine and think upon what kendo should be. But that's a discussion for another day.

My reasons for enjoying the katas can be summed up by several things: They are a link with tradition (a valid point although not an absolute one); they do teach patience and an appreciation for the minutia involved; they're far more relaxing than kihon, keiko or shiai (So sue me if I'm lazy...hopefully the calmness in my katas will spill over into my fighting).
However, I don't realy understand statements to the effect that they help with actual fighting technique all that much. For one thing bokuto are shorter than shinais so the distances are all screwed up. The techinques used are generally not used (successfully) while in bogu (when's the last time you attempted men-nuki-men against a jodan or followed a nuki-do by droping to one knee). Just my two cents (that's about one cent American). Man I hate writing without a spell checker.

[ben]

It's a bit of a misnomer that Japanese tradition requires "blind faith" in the authority of older kendoka.

First of all Japanese culture (and Asian culture in general) tends to respect its older generation more than the West, where we tend to be a youth-worshipping culture. This respect is the remnants Confucianism's concept of filial piety. Of course in the West there is always "Honour Thy Father and Thy Mother", but since the fifties, let's face it, teenagers rule (viz. "The Osbournes", a which I love btw & very much OT). This is one source of the difference it attitude.

Secondly, as was mentioned by Jerry I think, in another thread, there is the concept of "shuhari".

The "shu" part means to practice what you're shown without question. But "ha" means to break away from that. Then "ri" means to be free: of both blind faith, and the need to assert independence. The shuhari model is not meant to be strictly linear however, as Jerry quite rightly pointed out. We are constantly going back and forth between the three states.

b

[Charlie]

I'm learning things about shinai kendo from kata all the time. It would be my recommendation that you don't underestimate it. Achilles is in a different boat, he doesn't have to deal with it, really. But, man, I gotta tell you, I learn a lot from the kata, all the time, a lot of invisible things that are difficult to put into words.

And what's wrong with a little blind faith? Maybe you object to the term. Think of it instead as "commitment."

[AlexM]

Interesting replies.
Charlie (may I call you Charlie?) please try to explain what you mean by these "invisible things" (my eye sight is poor as it is). I promise not to contradict what you say on the basis of the language used (semantics drive me nuts). I'm just curious because right now I don't feel it that way.
Some of my dojo mates also tried to persuade me that proper katas help shiai kendo but their explanations didn't entierly convince me (I still see a problem with using a different weapon than in shiai, kihon and keiko). The best reason given by these frinds of mine (I hesitate to call them friends, more like people that beat me up for kicks) for the usefullness of katas, which I DO believe in, was the practicing of control through katas (the point was made by someone whom I accidently hit in the head during the 5th kata...stop laughing it isn't funny).

As to what is wrong with blind faith...maybe I shouldn't go into this.;)

Just a reminder, I actually ENJOY doing the katas, just not for the same reasons as most people.