Some observations and gripes about modern kendo.

[Koushinkuma]

Sorry about the length of this, but here are some observations I've made over the past few years of kendo practice. I hope I get some feedback on these thoughts!

One thing I've noticed in my 4 and a half or so years of kendo that I despise is that someone can be very fast but their blows can be very weak and they are still considered a "good" kendoist. I was fighting this guy in our dojo the other day. It was the last match of the day and I was pretty tired, so I reverted to the Yagyu kind of "wait and see" mentality (which I also hate but do it when I'm tired). He must have gotten 10 points on me in about two minutes, but the only thing I could think of was the song, "raindrops keep fallin' on my head..." In other martial arts I've done, where you wear considerably *less* padding, the blows were seemingly much harder. This seems odd to me considering kendo is supposed to mimic battlefield swordsmanship, where a "tap" wouldn't do anything as you would have to bust through your opponent's armor and then cut their body in twain.

In iaido I think they still understand the spirit of this: when they make that "swish" sound they are using sufficient force to chop a large piece of human meat.

I guess my beef is that the old battlefield samurai weren't a bunch of pusses who tip toed around the battlefield and then hit their opponent with all these dainty little blows. It must have been more like "WHAM!," on to the next, "WHAM!" on to the next, and so on. When I attack someone, I tend not to bother with the whole "waiting for an opening BS" (when a battlefield samurai would have had to have been avoiding arrows, spears, and therefore keep moving) and simply try to cream them on the men; if they raise their shinai to block, it seems to me that if you have sufficient strength you would simply go right through it along with their men; the thing is that you should physically remove your body from the point of impact rather than try to "block" a raging bull. But I often get "tapped" first in return and the judges/sensei says the other person got the point. Dunno, seems a bit ridiculous sometimes.

The other thing that bugs me is the "impoverishment" of kendo that I've realized has been slowly taking place over the past 50 years or so. After WW2 when they switched over to the "new" kendo, bereft of all the foot sweeps, chest tsuki, do chokes, etc., they also stripped it of much of its character and pushed it away from "martial art" towards "reflex sport." While we still carry the vestiges of the old system (for example, I am seldom hit on the tare and it does little more than to advertise my last name), kendo continues it slow "impoverishment" in the name of "safety." For example, tsuki is largely frowned upon in college tournaments. If you don't want to risk getting hurt, don't do a martial art!

Finally, size differences. I always think people should be in different classes like in other sports because, IMHO, really small people, esp. women, often throw my kendo off and I can't imagine this is limited to only me. I always find myself going at about 50% versus really small women because I'm afraid of hurting them, knocking them on the ground, or accidentally hitting their do in the wrong spot. I weigh about 230 and I bodybuild so it doesn't seem that fair to either the woman (or other small person) or to me, and I always find myself "pulling punches" so to speak.

In sum: to me it seems like kendo is becoming increasingly namby-pamby, PC, and distant from its origins as a battlefield art. It is, no matter what kind of spiritual zen like stuff you want to attribute to it, about killing people by cutting their head in half, slicing off their hand, disembowling them, or impaling their throat on your blade. Whereas in other martial arts I've taken part in, like karate and kung fu, I honestly felt I was being prepared to defend myself "outside" the dojo, I feel that I would have no problem in taking down just about anyone in my dojo in a "real" fight, that is, if there were no rules. Some may say that ultimately martial arts teach you to "win" without fighting, and this may be true somewhat, however for me it all comes down to the olive branch and the arrows: while one prefers peace, one must always have the strength to back up oneself. The "sportification" of kendo is, IMHO, making it more like ping pong, golf, or at worst, "rock paper scissors."

Feedback? Note that I did not intend this as a troll "essay," it's just some things I've observed since beginning kendo and reading up a lot about the history of budo, Japanese warfare, and kendo. I hope someone that is more enlightened than me will be able to contribute. :beard:

[Koushinkuma]

...bottom got cut off there. ...I hope that more englightened people then me can respond to these issues, as I really do like kendo but find certain aspects of it very unsatisfying.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So you criticise kendo as a "reflex sport" and not a martial art, but then are upset when someone uses superior skill to exploit a weakness in your attack? At 230 lbs, you're concerned about hurting smaller opponents but would like to be given credit for smashing through people's defences and ignoring namby-pamby counter-attacks? Methinks you have some logical holes in your arguments.

I understand the frustration about losing points to cuts that are more like taps, but look at it this way - that's their problem, not yours. Worry about the quality of your own attacks, especially in jigeiko.

You should also bear in mind that we are learning kendo, not warfare here. If you were learning real Japanese battlefield warfare, you'd learn bow and spear, not sword. Also, before criticising how strong people's cuts are or aren't, you should take the opportunity to do some tameshigiri sometime. You might be surprised by how little strength is required to cut. You're using a cutting tool, not a club.

To me the interesting thing about kendo is neither crushing the opponent through sheer strength, nor winning based on reflexes and speed. Neither of these methods are skill-based, and both deteriorate with age. Kendo is for life, and the forward view is to win through pressure and technique. Concentrate on developing your kendo until you can create an opening large enough in your opponent that allows you to hit strongly. When the hit is a foregone conclusion, then you've really defeated the opponent. And when you get annihilated by an 80 year old, you'll understand what I mean about kendo being for life.

[Koushinkuma]

Thank you for your answers.


So you criticise kendo as a "reflex sport" and not a martial art, but then are upset when someone uses superior skill to exploit a weakness in your attack? At 230 lbs, you're concerned about hurting smaller opponents but would like to be given credit for smashing through people's defences and ignoring namby-pamby counter-attacks? Methinks you have some logical holes in your arguments.

I understand the frustration about losing points to cuts that are more like taps, but look at it this way - that's their problem, not yours. Worry about the quality of your own attacks, especially in jigeiko.

You should also bear in mind that we are learning kendo, not warfare here. If you were learning real Japanese battlefield warfare, you'd learn bow and spear, not sword. Also, before criticising how strong people's cuts are or aren't, you should take the opportunity to do some tameshigiri sometime. You might be surprised by how little strength is required to cut. You're using a cutting tool, not a club.

To me the interesting thing about kendo is neither crushing the opponent through sheer strength, nor winning based on reflexes and speed. Neither of these methods are skill-based, and both deteriorate with age. Kendo is for life, and the forward view is to win through pressure and technique. Concentrate on developing your kendo until you can create an opening large enough in your opponent that allows you to hit strongly. When the hit is a foregone conclusion, then you've really defeated the opponent. And when you get annihilated by an 80 year old, you'll understand what I mean about kendo being for life.

To address the first paragraph: I don't see these as contradictions. What I'm saying is that, if you attack someone and hit them with a lot of strength, in effect you haven't messed up. That's what I don't get--you nail someone with a blow that in "reality" they couldn't possibly have suffered and survived, then they tap you back, and that's an effective counterattack? 2nd, that's why I think there need to be different size classes, like in wrestling, so that bigger people wouldn't have to "hold back" as much.

Next, I have trained myself in archery, at least western style, but not for the sake of training to be a battlefield samurai. However, I thought that spear, bow, and sword were all used on the battlefield in different circumstances, but that the ashigara were "below" the samurai in terms of social rank?

[Koushinkuma]

Also, isn't tameshigiri cutting straw or something? A bit different from chopping armor.

[litige]

first kendo is not representative of a battlefield war, buth rather a way to practise kenjutsu without getting hurt. They where more duels between samurai than wars.
second, the wait for an opening is no bullshit at all, because in a duel, you don't go rambo on your opponent, its a spirit fight. The fights between 2 samurai lasted less than you think, and a katana did cut very well, so you didn't need to hit that hard.

[JSchmidt]

First, you aren't cutting armor in kendo. It's 'simulating' cutting head, wrist, etc. Also, the techniques (and targets) used for fighting against armored opponents were specificly designed to cut where the armor wasnt covering.
If you practice kendo like you were cutting through armor, I certainly wouldnt want to practice with you.

[Craig Jones]

Also, isn't tameshigiri cutting straw or something? A bit different from chopping armor.

The target used in tameshigiri is designed to mimic cutting through flesh and bone. so when you are cutting the 'straw roll' it would be the same as if you were to cut someone head, arm, leg, etc. I have often heard that to cut the target (cant rememebr what it is called) requires much more skill and technique than it does strength. You can have some mid 20's hulk in the peak of his physical condition chop away as hard as he can and not cut though, and have a frail 80 year of cut through it like it was butter. Strength may be important to kendo but it is not nearly as important as skill. Just becaue you can hit very hard does not mean you would actually cause any sort of injury.

[Koushinkuma]

I know you're not really "cutting" armor, but the shinai itself does the job of "simulating" a sword, so there's no need to "simulate" a blow.

As for the waiting for or creating an opening bit: IMHO it was those evil and impractical Yagyu swordsmen that are responsible for this whole way of thinking. I can understand that kendo is a way to practice kenjutsu without getting hurt. However, in reading up on Japanese history, it's become more or less apparent that the whole way of "waiting for suki" that is prevalent in modern kendo came into play after the unification of Japan, once kenjutsu had moved off the battlefield and into the dojo, and the Yagyu school of "wait and see" took precedence over "crush the bad guy and move on." That is, the sword arts became more about looking nice and less about getting the job done. I can't quote the source, but I remember reading about one "battlefield samurai" who was challenged to a duel but a bunch of Yagyu, and he basically beat them all pretty easily because of his experience; they were all sitting around waiting to see what he would do and make a counterattack but he simply demolished them with powerful and well placed blows; I guess a rough analogy would be the final swordfight in the excellent movie "Hara Kiri." All the "dojo-trained" samurai were no match for the "real battlefield methods" of the veteran. Now I'm not saying that we need to really go train on the battlefield, but it seems like getting back to the roots of the art might be a good thing.

Also, what about sparring with bokken? Not full strength but like they do in karate, you pull at the last second. It seems we would have more respect for the blows we are dealing/receiving if we got hit with a bokken, even just once or twice at 25% force. Some may cry, THAT'S NOT SAFE! but neither is walking out the door in the morning.

As for getting whupped by an 80 year old, that just proves my point that kendo is no longer really a martial art. Unless it's Ueshiba sensei himself or perhaps Yoda, 25 year olds are simply not beaten up by 80 year olds unless it's a setup and it's in a dojo. It's reality, and to me martial arts are all about reality. No matter what your skill, kiai, technique, you need agility and strength to *execute* those killer moves. Something an 80 year old just does not have.

In sum all I'm saying is that it seems like idioms which in the past were "new" eventually get an inertia all their own, so that we see them as "tradition," and pass them on along with some mystifying BS that makes them seem more complex. Is kendo a sport, an art, a form of simulated deadly combat, a way of life, or a path to enlightenment? An olympic sport, a pickup truck, a hair gel? What is it exactly?

[AlexM]

I totally disagree with your entire post (respectfully).

First thing: Kendo IS NOT, nor has it ever been, a "battlefield" art. It is a form of budo. It was created AFTER Japan started to modernize and left the battlefield stuff to the generals who knew what they were doing by employing artillery and dependable infantry using muskets and bayonets. Kendo is POST-SAMURAI. Why people continue to persist in trying to make kendo into the "way of the samurai" is beyond me. Despite my avatar, I am not a little samurai.

Kendo does not develop battlefield skills. It is stylised fighting. A physical excersice that has been codified along the lines of swordsmanship. It's fencing à la Japonaise. Why do kendo? Because physical excersice is good for you and for your personal development (at least I think so). Kendo also emphasises certain character traits though its practice: discipline, concentration, etiquette, calm, etc... It's budo. Once again, my interpretation.

Second thing: Yes, people should be able to hit harder and nicer. You shouldn't lose on a "tap". However, the fact is that it happens. When you get better you learn to anticipate and thus take better swings (God, I hope so :D). When you start out, you tap when you see an opening. If you tap that's your business, if your opponent taps that's his business. The judges can often tell the difference. At the higher levels in Canada the guys don't win on "taps" (as anyone who has seen Team Canada can attest). But then again, if you hurt when you hit hard (like I do) then there's something wrong with your tenouchi (like mine). I remember playing Team Canada members, guys from Japan: they all hit hard (even with small swings) but it NEVER hurts. Just nice solid hits (assuming they're on target).
That being said, saying that people should hit harder because that's what would be necessary on the battlefield is mistaken. Kendo is not for the battlefield, never has been, never will be.

Third thing: The divisions rule. No, no, no, no, totally disagree. The shinai and bogu are the great equilizers of kendo. If you're pulling up when you fight smaller women that sounds like you should change your style, not make new rules to fit how you fight. Is it possible that your kendo is maybe to reliant on physical strength? That when you don't have or use that advantage you lose? Being big does not mean you'll beat a smaller opponent if you go "all out". If you don't like kendo being considered a sport then why do you care how you win or lose in competitions?

Fourth thing: Kendo is not a "self-defence" art. It is useless in that regard. I'm surprised that after 4 years of kendo you're disappointed by that fact.

[dwang]

Koushinkuma:

i agree with you on certain point.
i have similar build as you; i lift weights but not into body building. well not anymore at least; i started in college and one of main reason is vanity. Now i am focus on cardio and lift weight that help me doing things i love ie golf, kumdo, snowboard and etc. In no way am i degreding people who are into body building. It take some serious mental discipline and dedication. i am a firm beliver of stong body strong mind. and more musle mass you have the likehood of you getting hurt is less and it increase your recovery rate; that mean more practice per week. But as one gets older; our body bounds to break down. i would hate to not able to do the things i love just because i am not as strong as when i was young. Life is pretty fair; we have a triump card at different stages of our life.
youth:quickness, fast learning
prime:strengh, experience, more discipline
old:experience, spirit.
i can't say which stage is better; we just have to be adaptable and utlitze our advantage to it's fullest.

enough of me blabbing. i can't tell you what you belive you are wrong. i am no way qualify to do that. But like i stated i used to have simialr view point toward budo. i just want to share my view now.

relied on one's pure brutal strength. Indeed you might able to beat up eveyone in your class. But the invention of firearm have change all that. anyone with a gun can cause mortal wound to me despite the countless hour i spent in the gym. in kendo a proper cut will earn you a point it doesn't matter it's a tap or a star seeing inducing blow. i lose a point because i have a opening and my oppent was able to see it and expolit it. and that would mean my demise if it was a real sword fight to the death. if you can treat every sparring as a life/death, beprepare for any situation to me that's zenshen.

if you want to treat kenod as a battfield art then by limit you self only to the same wight class as you will no doubt decrease your survial rate. You can not guarnteed who you meet on the battle field. old, young, tall, short.

kumdo for me is all about me. i do it for me; not because it's cool, nor do i want to be a samurai. i am still very early on my path of kumdo; but it already gave me more then i can ever type or put it to words.

btw I would love to learn pre-war kendo; as i see my master does it once and it's amazing.
--
David

[Nanbanjin]

Sorry about the length of this, but here are some observations I've made over the past few years of kendo practice. I hope I get some feedback on these thoughts!............

Maybe you would be better suited to Kyokushin Karate?

The four most important physical elements in kendo are often quoted as,

1. Eyes
2. Legs
3. Abdomen (sometimes translated as "guts")
4. Strength

Strength comes in last in the list, and this seems to be the element you are most interested in.

Yowai, are you out there? This guy needs your help.

[Koushinkuma]

I totally disagree with your entire post (respectfully).

First thing: Kendo IS NOT, nor has it ever been, a "battlefield" art. It is a form of budo. It was created AFTER Japan started to modernize and left the battlefield stuff to the generals who knew what they were doing by employing artillery and dependable infantry using muskets and bayonets. Kendo is POST-SAMURAI. Why people continue to persist in trying to make kendo into the "way of the samurai" is beyond me. Despite my avatar, I am not a little samurai.

Kendo does not develop battlefield skills. It is stylised fighting. A physical excersice that has been codified along the lines of swordsmanship. It's fencing à la Japonaise. Why do kendo? Because physical excersice is good for you and for your personal development (at least I think so). Kendo also emphasises certain character traits though its practice: discipline, concentration, etiquette, calm, etc... It's budo. Once again, my interpretation.

Second thing: Yes, people should be able to hit harder and nicer. You shouldn't lose on a "tap". However, the fact is that it happens. When you get better you learn to anticipate and thus take better swings (God, I hope so :D). When you start out, you tap when you see an opening. If you tap that's your business, if your opponent taps that's his business. The judges can often tell the difference. At the higher levels in Canada the guys don't win on "taps" (as anyone who has seen Team Canada can attest). But then again, if you hurt when you hit hard (like I do) then there's something wrong with your tenouchi (like mine). I remember playing Team Canada members, guys from Japan: they all hit hard (even with small swings) but it NEVER hurts. Just nice solid hits (assuming they're on target).
That being said, saying that people should hit harder because that's what would be necessary on the battlefield is mistaken. Kendo is not for the battlefield, never has been, never will be.

Third thing: The divisions rule. No, no, no, no, totally disagree. The shinai and bogu are the great equilizers of kendo. If you're pulling up when you fight smaller women that sounds like you should change your style, not make new rules to fit how you fight. Is it possible that your kendo is maybe to reliant on physical strength? That when you don't have or use that advantage you lose? Being big does not mean you'll beat a smaller opponent if you go "all out". If you don't like kendo being considered a sport then why do you care how you win or lose in competitions?

Fourth thing: Kendo is not a "self-defence" art. It is useless in that regard. I'm surprised that after 4 years of kendo you're disappointed by that fact.

Thank you for the reply. Since I can't see your whole post on my screen I'm going to reply to your points in reverse:

4th: I agree that practically and concretely it's useless, though I think in terms of awareness, confidence, and principles (importance of center, timing, etc.) it's got some merit.

3rd. This has been something I've had to grapple with. At first and until recently I was too heavily reliant on size and strength. However, in trying to be a lot gentler and have more finesse I find that I've gone from feeling like a raging bear to a clumsy dancing one with a pink umbrella. Note that in my earlier post I said I weigh around 230 and bodybuild. I apologize if some people took that as boasting or machoness, it wasn't intended that way, just as a factual statement. It's just that I think kendo is biased in favor of the light and quick and I feel this is unfair for people that will *never* be light or very quick. That's why I recommended the weight and height classes: if anything, I think women and small people have an advantage, at least the way kendo is now, because they can be a lot faster than lumbering me. So I guess in this series of posts I'm also whining too that despite coming a very long way for me in terms of speed, I'll never be as fast as even a moderately slow "normal" kendo person with the "kendo build." It was when I came to this conclusion that I also saw how annoying it is to be "tapped," or to hold back a lot in tiatari because I don't want to knock some girl over. Since it takes two times as much force to slow down or stop a 230 pound dude as opposed to a 100 pound lady, I spend much more time accelerating/decelerating/being off balance/being hit by raindrops and less time cutting.

2nd: I have seen some harder hits that don't hurt. To me it doesn't matter if it hurts or not, that's part of it. It just makes me mad (and my ego gets going) when someone boasts that they've kicked my butt or whatever when all I felt were a bunch of tappity tap taps. The thought always comes: but if this was for real, I would have run that dude over. Again, why I like weight classes, if nothing else but for the relativity of speed. FYI, I don't hit very hard either in practice either, since I

[JSchmidt]

"As for getting whupped by an 80 year old, that just proves my point that kendo is no longer really a martial art. "

As I see this as exactly proving that kendo is a martial art and not just about raw strength.
Further, on my recent trip to Japan, I had the opportunity to practice with several 70-80 year olds and I can assure you that they hit firmly and will neatly use whatever force you use, against yourself. Kendo, in it self, is extremly simple. Lift up arms and bring them down again...but learning to do this, whilst maximizing efficiency and minimizing the amount of force used takes a lifetime.
Also, bear in mind that if you are cutting with the correct motion, the weight of the blade alone will be enough to cut the target.
Finally, keep in mind that this is 'kendo' not kenjutsu.

[tyler]

heyo,

as i read the opening posts i wanted to write one of my own, but i kept reading and sure enough by the end almost all of my concerns had been skillfully addressed by others. At this point I'll just mention some things i thought of from a slightly iai standpoint.
Tameshigiri (fixed straw mat cutting) is an interesting excercise which i've only tried once. On my first heavy, bicepty try i lodged the blade about 2cm into the straw. Real ugly. A sensei told me to relax and sure enough, second try, you don't even feel resistance. Butter.
I also had occaision to see some pictures in rather bad taste of some guy in the southern US who hung a large pig carcass and cut it clean in twain, horizontally, with a cut from the hip as per Seitei kata #11, so giri. If he can do that from the hip, that a vertical stike like men or kote, with proper tenouchi, should easily lop off a limb or cleave a skull. Its pretty gross, but the truth is it doesn't take much upper body strength at all, just good posture and a strong hara.
This is why, in iai, the nukitsuke or opening cut is rather small. Its designed to make a cut across the forehead or eyes or even the chest of an oponent (depending on what stage of the draw your imaginary teki is at). If you get even a shallow cut, its often so disruptive that it would likely send the opponent into shock. Anyhow, i think a timely 'tap' with a blade, with good timing and technique, might be all it took in a duel. Battlefield is surely different, but its been pointed out that kendo has little to do with battlefield stuff.

its been a great discussion to read so far.

tyler

[Nanbanjin]

Yowai, are you out there?　This whole thread needs your help!

[Shazzanzzz]

Best kendoist are never the fastest people, but the people with the best timing. Why do you think 80 year old hachidans can beat 18 year old ni-dans so easily? Needless to say, the 18 year old is going to be a hell lot faster, but, with the superior timing and knowledge, 80 year old can easily beat the 18 year old.

As for your style of attacking like crazy, it won't work against strong people. For a lot of people, the moment you attack is the moment you show your weakness, including myself. When I'm just standing there holding chudan, it's difficult for people to score on me. Most time when i lose a point, i lose it when I'm attacking, because of the opponent's superior debana wazas, if they try suriage or things like that, i usually close distance too fast for them to get it.

Usually, slow people won't attack that much because of this reason, people can see them coming too easy. YOu should try doing the way you don't like, wait and see and try to time your attacks and counters. It'll probably help you out a little in respect to losing in a match or ji-geiko.

And, if your opponents' attacks are soft, like the taps you talk about, it's so easy to knock away and counter. It's the strong ones that's hard for people to stop.

Weight class doesn't make sense. If there is weight class, kendo is a sport, not a martial art anymore. Part of Martial Art is understanding your strengh and weakness and figuring out your opponents strength and weakness and use them to your advantage. Bigger guys have their advantages, as does the smaller guys, you should learn how understand your body and know how to use it right (not meanign bulling little girls over, that's just wrong! :) ). And didn't you say you want kendo be more like real life fighting anyway? there's no weight class in reall life fighting. If you don't know how to beat a quicker guy than you, you die.


Ma 2 cents.

[dh song]

Hey, if you are interested in battlefield type gumdo (kendo), try Hae Dong gumdo. Hae Dong gumdo is specially degined for battlefield type sword fights. Of course, Hae Dong gumdo is one of many Korean martial arts like tae kwon do....etc. In Hae Dong gumdo, there are no tapping to the men attacks, all attacks are fatal and powerful. All practice swings are for actual cuttings. Many cuts and movements in Hae Dong gumdo are circular compared to the movements in Kendo. However, we don't sparr like in kendo.

[sminki]

Hey, if you are interested in battlefield type gumdo (kendo), try Hae Dong gumdo. Hae Dong gumdo is specially degined for battlefield type sword fights. Of course, Hae Dong gumdo is one of many Korean martial arts like tae kwon do....etc. In Hae Dong gumdo, there are no tapping to the men attacks, all attacks are fatal and powerful. All practice swings are for actual cuttings. Many cuts and movements in Hae Dong gumdo are circular compared to the movements in Kendo. However, we don't sparr like in kendo.

I didn't know that in battlefield type sword fights, people would jump, roll and spin while slashing with their swords. It is at least somewhat more likely with Chinese tai-chi type straight, light, double-edge swords, but with two-handed, single-edge katana type swords? Hardly. I don't have any personal axe to grind against HDGD, but let's not go there. I'm sure all that acrobatic stuff is fun and challenging though.

[Koushinkuma]

I want to thank everyone who has replied so far for their perspectives. It has helped me to understand aspects of my issues that I hadn't thought about before. Also I apologize if this post sounds whiny but these are questions I've been dying for answers to and you guys have been great so far.

I just want to say that, in case there was some misconception, I don't try to plow people over in keiko, in fact I think I'm one of the more gentle people in my dojo. Or at least I try to be. Especially towards women. But therein is my problem:

The thing that I'm most worried about is that it seems that none of my potential advantages based on body size, etc., are applicable (basically mass and strength,) but all of my weaknesses are (pretty slow acceleration and movement, big target, tired a bit more quickly from moving around one third to twice as much more mass as anyone else in the dojo). I've tried to compensate for slowness by working out my legs and calves a lot, which helps, but still brings me only to the level of "fair" to "average" speed.

I generally do try to "force" a weakness in my opponent by psyching out, etc., when I can, but I think the problem is that it's very easy to tell when I'm launching a real attack because, well, it's more obvious than with wiry dudes that are loaded like a 100psi slinky.

So a 15 year old whose bum I could bounce from one end of town to the other in a "real" fight walks all over me. It seems...illogical, somehow. For the same reasons in a sense that an 80 year old whupping an upstart's butt does.I mean, there must be a reason that most of the big fighters in nature and in human society are big! Think cops, tigers, T-rexes, Darth Vader, sharks, etc. Size does have certain advantages. Again, I want to reiterate that I try not to be a "rude" kendoist in any way (I don't like when people say "player") and I don't bully anyone, sometimes I even shy away from tiatari because I don't want to be tempted into checking someone, but this feels kind of unnatural and dumb to me, like fighting in a straightjacket.

I know that if competition doesn't matter to one then this shouldn't make a difference, but it is disheartening and somewhat embarassing to have done kendo more than 4 times as long as someone and they can dance circles around you while pelting you with a "rainstorm," and then give you well-meant but inappropriate-feeling "advice" after on "how to improve your kendo," and then patting me on the back and saying, "I know it's hard." I was ready to force-choke him right there for being so insensitive; I know he meant well in his way but from my perspective it was really insulting. He's 15 and I'm 30, he's been doing kendo 1 year and I've been doing it more than 4. For the record I smiled and complimented him on his moves, but inside my emotions were boiling.

I know that competition shouldn't matter if you're into the whole spiritual aspect (I try to be), but there is no getting around that it is disappointing and somehow unrealistic, at least to me. Plus everyone talks about "who's good," and who beat whom. And our sensei has sometimes disappointed me by starting off a lecture on something cool, like proper zanshin, and finishing it off with a watered down statement like, "and if you don't have it, you're not going to get the point." Here I am thinking that zanshin must relate to big issues in one's life, deep philosophical issues, and how you might win a fight or argument with someone without fighting if you could display proper confidence, and here he is talking about getting a "point." Touchdown! I don't like the fact that sensei makes everything that we do seem like it's related to getting points in tournaments! But it is the people that score a lot of "points," in keiko and shiai, that get praise, recognition, and acknowledgement as being "good." Not that these should matter to me as a mature indiviudal, but they do, nonetheless. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment.

Thoughts? Admonitions? :cat:

[dwang]

Koushinkuma:

you are definately not alone. after all we live in a society that praise winner. And it sure suck to get beaten by person who started later than you; or progress faster than you. The way i see it; they are better because they might practice more/harder than me and they might have more talent than me. To me that the reason for me to try and train harder. I know i will never be as good as shane white in snowboard, nor as good as tiger wood in golf. But there is no way in hell it's going to stop me from doing things i enjoy. Same as kumdo; i started pretty late so i always have to play catch up. Frankly i enjoy the challenge and not see it as an disadvantage. Since you lift weight; You know genetic play a huge part. I know people went to gym 1,2 twice a week; doesn't pay attention to what they eat; started lifting weight way after i started and still able to out lift me. Do i feel bad? I would be lying if i say no. but that's just my ego and personal demon that i have to struggle with. i refuse to say i have bad gene and play the vitimize card. Am i going to stop going to the gym? No; because i know it's good for me; and i do it for myself. Most of the ppl i lift weight with in college have quit for various reason. They are suprise how much stronger i gotten; but i really havn't improve that much but they have fallen behind.
4 years in kendo is not a short time; but compare to the rest of your life it is a blink of eye. The same 15 years old kid could quit and never practice again or become the next world champion. It shouldn't make any different to you because kumdo should be about you and you alone. Countless swings, practice just prepare for that one perfect strike, perfect timing. To me that make it all worth it.

talk to your sensi; and voice your concern. Strength definatley have it's place but not so much in kumdo. My master actully prefer hard hitting if done correctly.

keep practiceing; you bound to find a way to defend and attack the faster kendoist. or maybe big ppl will go the way of dinosuor and extinct :happy:

--
David

[dorkusxmaximus]

You sound like those kenjutsu practitioners that looked down on me when I told them I practice kendo, but the thing is that you take kendo yourself. You wouldn't believe how much crap they said to me, and most of it was pretty similar to what you had posted.

[Yowai]

Hello piledriver!
When lwegerich mentioned his problem with a hard clubber dipshit in his dojo, I expected someone with the same piledriver mentality would post twisted thoughts.

If I understand you correctly, your whining is the result of having a quick experienced kendoka see through your clumsy and slow fishing swing and tap you elegantly before your shinai smashes down.

I unconditionally agree with you. Kendo should be about brute strength. It's not fair when those more experienced people start "tapping" at me. I refuse to acknowledge those points. My Kendo is the real Kendo, and those shinpans do not know what they are doing.

Hachidan? Pansy. We'll just meet in the corridor after practice and I will be happy to show the elderly a 'real' fight. My strategy for fighting these old geezers is simply clubbing them to death. I don't care if they are always tapping me before my blows, my blows are ten times stronger so those taps do not count. That's in the rules, right?


The thing that I'm most worried about is that it seems that none of my potential advantages based on body size, etc., are applicable (basically mass and strength,)
It's just not fair! You and I have this gorgeous and superior body and those darn old people, and the so called "experienced" people are holding me back! People who are smaller and physically weaker than me are destined to be ruled by the strong!


I was ready to force-choke him right there for being so insensitive; I know he meant well in his way but from my perspective it was really insulting. He's 15 and I'm 30, he's been doing kendo 1 year and I've been doing it more than 4. For the record I smiled and complimented him on his moves, but inside my emotions were boiling.
Switch to the darkside! We do Kendo our way, and we have nothing to learn from these weakling that supposedly surpass us. By continuing our narcissism, we get closer to Kendo mastery.


Touchdown! I don't like the fact that sensei makes everything that we do seem like it's related to getting points in tournaments! But it is the people that score a lot of "points," in keiko and shiai, that get praise, recognition, and acknowledgement as being "good." Not that these should matter to me as a mature indiviudal, but they do, nonetheless. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment.
Points are irrelevant in Kendo. The entire concept of striking a datotsu is confusing. What's the point of scoring and what does scoring have to do with Kendo?


guess my beef is that the old battlefield samurai weren't a bunch of pusses who tip toed around the battlefield and then hit their opponent with all these dainty little blows. It must have been more like "WHAM!," on to the next, "WHAM!" on to the next, and so on. When I attack someone, I tend not to bother with the whole "waiting for an opening BS"
I watch those samurai films over and over as well. As part of keiko, people should line up in a line, then I come and start bashing heads and they pretend to fall down simulating death. That would be cool! None of this 'seme' crap that we don't understand. Just rush in and CLUB!


kendo continues it slow "impoverishment" in the name of "safety." For example, tsuki is largely frowned upon in college tournaments. If you don't want to risk getting hurt, don't do a martial art!
I want my old Kendo back. I want to do my Judo moves in Kendo. Can we work in guns into Kendo as well? That would be the ultimate combat.

Crushed trachea? Bruised artery? Running off to your 'hospital'? PANSY! Tsuki divides the boys from the men.

Nanbanjin: I regret not noticing this thread earlier. There exists enough stupidity for an orgy of epic proportions.

[Shazzanzzz]

So a 15 year old whose bum I could bounce from one end of town to the other in a "real" fight walks all over me.

I know that if competition doesn't matter to one then this shouldn't make a difference, but it is disheartening and somewhat embarassing to have done kendo more than 4 times as long as someone and they can dance circles around you while pelting you with a "rainstorm," and then give you well-meant but inappropriate-feeling "advice" after on "how to improve your kendo," and then patting me on the back and saying, "I know it's hard." I was ready to force-choke him right there for being so insensitive; I know he meant well in his way but from my perspective it was really insulting. He's 15 and I'm 30, he's been doing kendo 1 year and I've been doing it more than 4. For the record I smiled and complimented him on his moves, but inside my emotions were boiling.

:

It sounds like you're mad at yourself for not being as good as a little kid who started kendo after you did. It's ok, I've seen people practicing kendo for 3, 4 years beating up yon-dan, go-dan senseis before. Some people are just better kendo "players" than other, but, it doesn't mean their kendo is better.

FYI, in a real fight, it doesn't matter how little, weak the cut is, if it's enough to kill you, then it doesn't matter how much stronger you or your strikes are. You're more talking like if you were fighting with bokkens on the street or shinais, not with a sword.

Also, stop talking about how you can beat up people on the street if it was a REAL fight. If they have a gun, doesn't matter if you're 7 foot tall 300 lbs or 5 foot tall 80lbs.

[KhawMengLee]

As for getting whupped by an 80 year old, that just proves my point that kendo is no longer really a martial art. Unless it's Ueshiba sensei himself or perhaps Yoda, 25 year olds are simply not beaten up by 80 year olds unless it's a setup and it's in a dojo. It's reality, and to me martial arts are all about reality. No matter what your skill, kiai, technique, you need agility and strength to *execute* those killer moves. Something an 80 year old just does not have.



Erm...I suggest you take a sabbatical to Meiji University and ask Hirakawa Sensei to show you how weak "old man" kendo is. I saw him push a certain national squad member 10 feet away from a stationary tai atari position. And his cuts when he wants too, weren't laid softly either. Maybe the reason why their blows are soft is that they want you to be aware of your weaknesses...tho, maybe a really big smack would make a better point.

Oldies hit too soft? Geez...you oviously haven't seen a lot.

[Nanbanjin]

Hello piledriver!
When lwegerich mentioned his problem with a hard clubber dipshit in his dojo, I expected someone with the same piledriver mentality would post twisted thoughts.....

Geez, this thread really needed that.
Did I ever say your posts weren't constructive? In this case I reckon you've been about as constructive as humanly possible.

[Kenshi]

so why are yagyu shinkage ryu swordsmen evil? have you been reading Kozure Okami [Lone Wolf and Cub]? or - even worse - Yoshikawa Eijis Musashi? Neither are know for their historical accuracy... :silly:

and whats this wait and see stuff?? do you actually do shinkage-ryu????? i think not !!! "kentai hyori" is what you need to research.

the single most important koryu that was involved in the development of gendai kendo is generally accepted as itto-ryu .... totally different from shinkage-ryu [except for its base waza, "gasshi" in shinkage ryu...ive forgotten the itto-ryu terminology].

[Koushinkuma]

Hi Yowai and others,

If you read my posts more carefully you will see that I am carefully NOT a piledriver. Since I've asked sincerely for some help and opinions but now sense that this is going to turn into a rip-fest at my expense, I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. I apologize if I have come off as trying to sound macho or gung-ho or reckless, that was not my intent.

Have fun and good day. :happy:

[litige]

Speed kendo is for speed kendokas!

I had a little shiai for the beginners and damn it was ugly.
one girl had is neck snap back because of that big dude who didn't know how to do a nice men-uchi. I think the big hits (99% of all) in this shiai would have ring the bell in the hammer thing (you know what i mean).
Yeah...it was ugly, i tried my best to do what i have learned and do it nice.
I would like to see the old Kendo, i think it would be better and if we could go back to sword fights in war, guns are for wussies.

[Hingus]

Excuse me if I am reiterating what has ben said before, but I believe there is a significant differance between a good controlled cut and a sledgehammer cut.

I know my sensei can deliver a strong headache inducing men cut :D, but rarely does he do more than a firm cut that lets me know I have been hit without causing a concussion.

Control is a part of Kendo.

[Yowai]

Since I've asked sincerely for some help and opinions but now sense that this is going to turn into a rip-fest at my expense, I respectfully withdraw from this discussion.

Withdraw respectfully? Too bad. I was anticipating your defence for the claim that the current Kendo establishment is bogus because you aren't considered skillfully.

We should create class divisions in Kendo: the "normal Kendo" class and the "I don't want to improve; I just want to use my strength to bash the opponent because I have the body to become an awesome samurai" class.

[Nanbanjin]

Speed kendo is for speed kendokas!

I had a little shiai for the beginners and damn it was ugly.
one girl had is neck snap back because of that big dude who didn't know how to do a nice men-uchi. I think the big hits (99% of all) in this shiai would have ring the bell in the hammer thing (you know what i mean).
Yeah...it was ugly, i tried my best to do what i have learned and do it nice.
I would like to see the old Kendo, i think it would be better and if we could go back to sword fights in war, guns are for wussies.
How about locking up psychopaths and not having wars?

People hit hard because they are allowed to use a shinai before they have developed footwork and understand that the basics of a cut are formed by striking in mid air, not by striking a target.
For all those hard hitters out there, if you can't hit in mid air comfortably and if you can't translate that to hitting a target, then you are doing it wrong.

[Koushinkuma]

Okay, I had to answer that one from weakie.

Let me be clear here, I'm not going to talk in any way about my own skill, though I have in past posts. These are simply observations I've made after not only practicing kendo for a while but also reading up a lot on swordsmanship, warfare, etc, not only in Japan but in Europe and other geographic spheres as well. I'm no expert but have done a good deal of amateur research in this area.

I'm not saying current kendo is bogus. I'm saying it is *impoverished* and *stripped down* and *overly sportified* with too much pseudo-Olympic emphasis on "points" compared to the richness of the way it seems to have been 60 years ago. I believe that a lot of that good old stuff was taken out, probably as a result of the occupation when kendo was outlawed for a while as it was thought too militaristic; but was repackaged as a "sport" to make it more presentable to a world that was still not so sure about Japanese militarism and intentions. But now it doesn't have to be this way!

To me, a "sport" is something that it should not be, and is why kendo sometimes feels so stripped down. It is like going from a Corvette Z06 with leather and all the options to a Ford Taurus. The basic car shape is there but is nowhere near as fulfilling to drive! You can see parts of this "empty shell" when you think about all the different kamae there are, but several are hardly used at all anymore (hasso, gedan, wakagamae). They are leftovers that have no real purpose. They are also represented in the kata, as is fighting with nito, and the kata are, I believe, supposed to represent "lessons" about attacks/openings/counterattacks that all kendoka are supposed to know. I'm always bummed when I do kata 4 but then realize that you can't really do wakagamae in keiko, since it seems like at one time it was a very useful counter to certain other stances. Now almost everything is chudan and people freak when someone does jodan.

With only 4 (or 3!) places to attack it becomes like an advanced version of rock paper scissors and becomes entirely based on speed and accuracy. People have raised the issue of timing, pressure, and opening but these again seemed constrained and very limited when you only have a few targets to attack; it's not like, "gee, is he going to go for my legs, my neck, my chest, my head, hand, or throat? Or is he going to foot sweep me and choke the life out of me with my do?" Now it's more "gee, is he going to go for my head or hand?" Kind of takes a lot of the complexity out of it and makes it a lot like that game where you place your palm against another person's palm and they try to flip their hand over and hit your before you can remove it. That's what I meant by a "reflex sport."

Someone said earlier that you don't need a lot of strength because the sword is aimed at the places that do not have armor covering them. Well every document I've ever seen with pictures of olden warriors has shown them wearing a helmet on their head. Yet men is the main cut of kendo! Tapping someone on the helmet in this case would be like slapping a metal and leather encased side of beef with a ruler and expecting it to go through. I have two katanas at home, and neither of them is sharp enough to split metal without some serious help in terms of force. Now I am *not* advocating jack hammering someone's head into the ground, dislocating vertebrae, making them 2 inches shorter for life, etc. I *am* advocating more emphasis on clean, powerful hits, NOT I REPEAT NOT bludgeoning blows; at some of the tournaments I've been to I've seen judges award points for hits that were hardly noticeable. So tag, you're it? It seems like it should be a little more clear and not just about "getting inside the other guys' timing." That *does* play a part, but it seems to me that a well-landed blow would not stop for sword, armor, or ligament.

Oh, and please don't boil this thread down to "hitting hard" versus "not hitting hard." It's much more involved than that. As I said above, no one has ever complained about how hard I hit...and I don't think anyone else should be out to give concussions either.

[Shazzanzzz]

Someone said earlier that you don't need a lot of strength because the sword is aimed at the places that do not have armor covering them. Well every document I've ever seen with pictures of olden warriors has shown them wearing a helmet on their head. Yet men is the main cut of kendo! Tapping someone on the helmet in this case would be like slapping a metal and leather encased side of beef with a ruler and expecting it to go through. I have two katanas at home, and neither of them is sharp enough to split metal without some serious help in terms of force. Now I am *not* advocating jack hammering someone's head into the ground, dislocating vertebrae, making them 2 inches shorter for life, etc. I *am* advocating more emphasis on clean, powerful hits, NOT I REPEAT NOT bludgeoning blows; at some of the tournaments I've been to I've seen judges award points for hits that were hardly noticeable. So tag, you're it? It seems like it should be a little more clear and not just about "getting inside the other guys' timing." That *does* play a part, but it seems to me that a well-landed blow would not stop for sword, armor, or ligament.

Oh, and please don't boil this thread down to "hitting hard" versus "not hitting hard." It's much more involved than that. As I said above, no one has ever complained about how hard I hit...and I don't think anyone else should be out to give concussions either.

men cut is to the face, not helmet, i think someone mentioned that already.

men means face, not head.

you keep saying same thing over and over again, why write so much over and over again when it's the same exact thing?

[Shazzanzzz]

I think Iaido'll suit you more than kendo, why don't you try that, so you can play with a real sword instead of a fake one.

[kendokamax]

Have you ever seen some old school kendo?

Maybe its fun to play but it is so ugly to watch. Modern kendo is so much cleaner and beautifull. Thats what is so interesting about kendo, you can fight with style.

You think its only a rock paper scisor game? Tell me how come some matches can last more than 20-30 minutes? Come on man. Come in Japan and you will see how much more complex than that it is, when you get beaten up by all these people with experiences that can easely read your all your attacks, you will start to cry.

Modern Kendo has already so much to offer. Maybe sometimes in keiko it is amusing to play a bit rough and do sweeps kicks etc.. But clean, powerfull and beautiful kendo (wich requires much more skills) is much more difficult to do. And in my opinion everyone is able to attain such a level of skills. So why dont you try? Go buy some all japan kendo video, if you dont like it go play www.shinai.org .

however sweep and kicks can be an important part of happy kendo!!!

[Yowai]

The density of senseless statement in your post is remarkable. I can't write a paragraphed reply when your post is a collection of completely absurd reasoning.


'm not saying current kendo is bogus. I'm saying it is *impoverished* and *stripped down* and *overly sportified* with too much pseudo-Olympic emphasis on "points"...
Oh; I stand corrected.


It is like going from a Corvette Z06 with leather and all the options to a Ford Taurus. The basic car shape is there but is nowhere near as fulfilling to drive!
You want to drive a more gimmicky and flashier car than a basic, efficient, and functional car. I see that your character perfectly resembles your expectation of Kendo.


I'm always bummed when I do kata 4 but then realize that you can't really do wakagamae in keiko, since it seems like at one time it was a very useful counter to certain other stances.
Maturity of the practice of Kendo eventually rids itself of impractical kamaes. You are free to do wakagamae in your jigeiko if you wish.


Now almost everything is chudan and people freak when someone does jodan.
Who freaks when someone does Jodan? You?


With only 4 (or 3!) places to attack it becomes like an advanced version of rock paper scissors and becomes entirely based on speed and accuracy.
You must have Kendo all figured out. Why are you still a beginner?
"Speed and accuracy... pfft who needs it!"


People have raised the issue of timing, pressure, and opening but these again seemed constrained and very limited when you only have a few targets to attack
The ultimate example of your miscomprehension of Kendo. You feel limited because you do you understand any of these elements. How could you be in any position to comment in this regard?


Now it's more "gee, is he going to go for my head or hand?"
Where else would you want your opponent to hit you? You can't even evade these blows when you seem to have a Zen understanding of the mechanics of Kendo.


That *does* play a part, but it seems to me that a well-landed blow would not stop for sword, armor, or ligament.
What is the ideal shiai that you envision? If we get rid of the elements that you dislike (ie. timing, speed, distance, seme) what kind of Kendo will be left? A tameshigiri competition?


Let me be clear here, I'm not going to talk in any way about my own skill, though I have in past posts.
You still are, and you managed to show us how little you understand Kendo.


Oh, and please don't boil this thread down to "hitting hard" versus "not hitting hard." It's much more involved than that.
Yes; this discussion is more idiotic and less intelligent than that discussion.

[litige]

I must bow to yowai and kendokamax.
sincerely

[Koushinkuma]

Whatever man. I didn't ask for or use personal attacks against you. If questioning the ways things are and researching the past are not to be a part of kendo in the future, then it will truly become a "beautiful," but lost, art.

As for lambasting my personal ability, you have no basis other than these posts here to do that.

Oh, so men means face, yes? Well I believe that the face was covered by armor as well--the snarly looking mask.

Also, yoway, your post is amazingly insulting yet contains almost no substantive information. I'm not sure why that next dude "bowed" to you? If I'm so wrong why don't you instruct some rather than just gloat in your own, apparently superior, knowledge? That you are keeping all to yourself? Please explain (and you get five extra points and a free trip to New Jersey if you can do it without a single personal insult! Can he do it? The judges don't think so!)

[Koushinkuma]

Have you ever seen some old school kendo?

Maybe its fun to play but it is so ugly to watch. Modern kendo is so much cleaner and beautifull. Thats what is so interesting about kendo, you can fight with style.

You think its only a rock paper scisor game? Tell me how come some matches can last more than 20-30 minutes? Come on man. Come in Japan and you will see how much more complex than that it is, when you get beaten up by all these people with experiences that can easely read your all your attacks, you will start to cry.

Modern Kendo has already so much to offer. Maybe sometimes in keiko it is amusing to play a bit rough and do sweeps kicks etc.. But clean, powerfull and beautiful kendo (wich requires much more skills) is much more difficult to do. And in my opinion everyone is able to attain such a level of skills. So why dont you try? Go buy some all japan kendo video, if you dont like it go play www.shinai.org .

however sweep and kicks can be an important part of happy kendo!!!

Thanks for this reply...actually this is rather inspiring. I have seen a few matches that lasted 15-20 minutes and they were quite impressive. But I haven't seen enough old kendo to see why it is ugly, or why "beautiful" kendo is necessarily "better." Though I have seen some beautiful kendo.

I see your point about seeing really good people perform...can you recommend a good video of some real experts?

Thank you for your earnest reply.

:cool2:

[dorkusxmaximus]

Honestly, if you want to see different kamae being used so badly, go down to Southern California. They'll show you a thing or two. Your analogy of kendo is to rock, paper, scissors doesn't come close to what kendo really is. You've been doing kendo longer than me, and yet you still think like that? Now that's pretty sad. There were still kendo taikais even before the occupation, you know.

[litige]

[QUOTE=Koushinkuma] I see your point about seeing really good people perform...can you recommend a good video of some real experts?
[QUOTE]

Go to kendoshop.com then in community, then mania room, and finally, there's the video on the gruelling kendo something, its about the hachi-dan test. pretty neet, they focus on two expert of different age.

[Koushinkuma]

Honestly, if you want to see different kamae being used so badly, go down to Southern California. They'll show you a thing or two. Your analogy of kendo is to rock, paper, scissors doesn't come close to what kendo really is. You've been doing kendo longer than me, and yet you still think like that? Now that's pretty sad. There were still kendo taikais even before the occupation, you know.

The rock paper scissors thing was just an analogy as for how it is now compared to what it must have been. Not to be taken literally.

BTW, and this is not directed only at you sir, but what is it with people on this board just outright judging each other based on so little information? senorita nofuerte is the worst, but what's with blatantly calling someone's opinion moronic? Especially without simply backing up one's own opinion with fact? "If someone doesn't believe what I do, then they must be stupid." Some people on here sound like a bunch of kids.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you can get your hands on something called the Tozai Taikai (hope I got that right) you might have your eyes opened. It's a demonstration tournament, where each person fights against a person of the same level. The tape my sensei has shows fights starting at rokudan, then working through nanadan, kyoshi nanadan, kyoshi hachidan and finally hanshi hachidan. Very neat to see.

Regarding the rock-paper-scissors thing - I must again chime in regarding your limited understanding of kendo. At 4 years experience, you'd be at most nidan (novice) so it will take some time to learn these things. Unfortunately in the meantime you will get nailed just on speed. The only advice I have is to work on your own attacks and don't worry so much about the points you lose.

[Shazzanzzz]

I've seen two hachidans doing ji-geiko in real life. It was really impressive. There timing were absolutely perfect with one perfect hit, counter after each other.

[dorkusxmaximus]

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and I don't go off calling people stupid if we share different viewpoints. That's just outright immature. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it doesn't hurt to know why they have different perspectives. Maybe that person will persuade me to change my notion about things with a good point they just made. You, sir haven't. I don't get why you're going off on things you just don't know enough about. I don't ever recall seeing you back yourself up with concrete facts. All I remembered from your posts in here were the vague books you've read, your analogies, and examples. Your posts must be very credible, huh? It looks more like nothing more than opinions to me.

[Koushinkuma]

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and I don't go off calling people stupid if we share different viewpoints. That's just outright immature. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and it doesn't hurt to know why they have different perspectives. Maybe that person will persuade me to change my notion about things with a good point they just made. You, sir haven't. I don't get why you're going off on things you just don't know enough about. I don't ever recall seeing you back yourself up with concrete facts. All I remembered from your posts in here were the vague books you've read, your analogies, and examples. Your posts must be very credible, huh? It looks more like nothing more than opinions to me.

Okay, since I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone around here without getting personal, I've decided to try the approach of most everyone else in here. Maybe then I'll fit in better.

Dear sir, not that your opinion isn't valued, but I really don't care if I've persuaded you, because you simply don't matter to me as you are just another clueless, opinionated dipstick on the internet (myself excluded). Rather I was trying to get some honest opinions, which I've gotten in excess, including some moronic posts like yours that for lack of any greater intelligence behind it steals its vocabulary from my posts (hmmm, did my use of 'sir,' bring back bad high school memories of your English teacher? Or maybe you're not in high school quite yet, big guy?). And that last post wasn't aimed so specifically at you, however obviously everything in the universe revolves around you. But you did express a pretty strong judgement in it without really knowing anything about me, the mark of a true educated person. How do you know if I'm "going off about things I don't really know about?" For all you know I could have six Ph.D's in Japanese history. For all I know you could be "working on" that GED but have failed the test six times and work part time as a window person at McDonald's in order to support your twelve kids and pay for your apartment in the ghetto. The heck is with a name like dorkusmaximus, anyway, babe? Is that your real name? If not maybe you should change it.

[Iviro]

uuuhh...
What happend to Happy Kendo ?? :confused:

[Koushinkuma]

Deconstructing Yowai, a Key to Understanding the Man and the Mystery; or, a Dialogue of the Incomprehensible Mysteries of Kendo.

by Koushinkuma


"The density of senseless statement in your post is remarkable. I can't write a paragraphed reply when your post is a collection of completely absurd reasoning."

Gee, sort of like your sentence. Are you saying something here? Is there any substantive content? Examples? I guess this is just an example of "inabsurd reasoning."

"Oh; I stand corrected."

Quite often in your life, I imagine. Someone like you must be wrong a lot. And you must have got the stuffing kicked out of you a lot as a kid to be so insulting but now you are able to hide behind the internet. Boo, hoo, little boy.
You said you're going home soon and we won't hear from you anymore. That will be awesome.

"You want to drive a more gimmicky and flashier car than a basic, efficient, and functional car. I see that your character perfectly resembles your expectation of Kendo."

No, I want to drive a car that is a marvel of engineering, powerful, efficient, and reliable, that sheeple like you would think is gimmicky and flashy, but without knowing anything whatsoever about what makes a car "go." Hey yowai, you know anything about cars besides how to put stickers on it? I thought not, big guy. Just remember to change your oil at least once every 20,000 miles.

"Maturity of the practice of Kendo eventually rids itself of impractical kamaes. You are free to do wakagamae in your jigeiko if you wish."

So the old time samurai who created these kamaes were being impractical for the battlefield. And you're better because you're so mature and evolved. Oh yeah. I'd like to see yowai up against a slew, no, half a real warrior.

"Who freaks when someone does Jodan? You?"

I was speaking figuratively. Obviously, you can't read. Or if you can read, you don't understand figures of speech. Go back to grammar school and learn some manners along with your lessons. And if you saw a six foot warrior dude (not Tom Cruise) bearing down on you with a REAL sword, not a pansy stick, you would, first of all people, spray the wall volumniously with fecal material.


"You must have Kendo all figured out. Why are you still a beginner?"

Hey, smart guy! You got a bachelor's degree in Canada. Why are you still stupid?


"Speed and accuracy... pfft who needs it!"

You sure do to make up, no doubt, for other...deficiences. :shocked:


"The ultimate example of your miscomprehension of Kendo. You feel limited because you do you understand any of these elements. How could you be in any position to comment in this regard?"

How can you be in any position to comment on anything when you are so obviously mentally deficient? You are so limited because you do not understand how to coexist with other people without insulting them. Some day, little boy, someone will put you in your place, and I wish to God I could be there to watch. I dearly hope you survive and learn your lesson.


"Where else would you want your opponent to hit you? You can't even evade these blows when you seem to have a Zen understanding of the mechanics of Kendo."

I'm not sure I understand this statement as your writing is clear like the moon on the Mississippi at night.


"What is the ideal shiai that you envision? If we get rid of the elements that you dislike (ie. timing, speed, distance, seme) what kind of Kendo will be left? A tameshigiri competition?"

Read. I didn't say to get rid of these things. Read little boy, read. Or learn to.

"You still are, and you managed to show us how little you understand Kendo."

And you as well. Thanks.


"Yes; this discussion is more idiotic and less intelligent than that discussion"

Only since you entered the room, moron.

[Will]

I just thought people didn't use hasso and other kamaes because they're ineffective, not because it's been watered down. For instance, in hasso, your men is wide open, it's not nearly as effective as chudan.
OH! And now a days, millions of people are doing Kendo and actively trying to improve the art and all its aspects. With their training, modern Kendo swordplay might be even MORE effective than Kenjutsu in the more precise way to combat someone (with the exceptions of kicks and stuff) simply because its been evolved by a large group of people searching for the most efficient and effective means of combat.

To be honest, I think your ego is being slight hurt that despite all your size and physical advantages, it's still possible to lose. You may be griping that because Kendo is suppose to be how warriors fought in olden days, physical advantage should lead to advantage in keiko, but that isn't the case in Kendo. Just an observation on why you might feel that way.

Secondly, your way of kendo sounds fun, i'll play you, though I think I'm a bit smaller than a body builder. It would be interesting to play someone who played your style of Kendo (especially if that person got owned by me).

[Yowai]

Koushinkuma's profile as of 10-12-2003: (God knows what it will be tomorrow)
"Birthday:
November 4, 1973
Biography:
You know Lord Vader? I'm his big brother.
Country:
United_States
Art and Grade:
Kendo, yondan; Aikido, nidan; Karatedo, shodan
Location:
The 9th hell.
Interests:
Arresting people for speeding.
Occupation:
Police Officer.
Favourite Saying:
"A noisy noise annoys an oyster; a noisy noise annoys an oyster more." "

Wow. Ikkyu to yondan in one day. Impressive. Maybe you should talk to the beginners who are easily surpassing you about your new imaginary Kendo ryu.
Note the Star Wars references in some of his posts. I have a feeling that this man (?) has a deep obsession with the movie series. You want to fight like Luke! Your mystery was too easy to solve.


No, I want to drive a car that is a marvel of engineering, powerful, efficient, and reliable, that sheeple like you would think is gimmicky and flashy, but without knowing anything whatsoever about what makes a car "go." Hey yowai, you know anything about cars besides how to put stickers on it? I thought not, big guy. Just remember to change your oil at least once every 20,000 miles.
I don't have to know anything about cars. We have people (you) to fix it for us for pocket change. You're a policeman? Why are you playing around with swords and dreaming of becoming a samurai? Aren't you happy with the gun that you carry?


And if you saw a six foot warrior dude (not Tom Cruise) bearing down on you with a REAL sword...
We have people in society (you) who are paid to protect normal people (me) from sword weilding psychos. I'm not losing too much sleep.


Born in the 70's. Star Wars fanatic. Samurai/ninja dreams. Muscle-head. Grease-monkey.
You're a mixed box of tools! Who said flames weren't constructive? This one ended a bit quickly that I had hoped.

[Koushinkuma]

Koushinkuma's profile as of 10-12-2003: (God knows what it will be tomorrow)
"Birthday:
November 4, 1973
Biography:
You know Lord Vader? I'm his big brother.
Country:
United_States
Art and Grade:
Kendo, yondan; Aikido, nidan; Karatedo, shodan
Location:
The 9th hell.
Interests:
Arresting people for speeding.
Occupation:
Police Officer.
Favourite Saying:
"A noisy noise annoys an oyster; a noisy noise annoys an oyster more." "

Wow. Ikkyu to yondan in one day. Impressive. Maybe you should talk to the beginners who are easily surpassing you about your new imaginary Kendo ryu.
Note the Star Wars references in some of his posts. I have a feeling that this man (?) has a deep obsession with the movie series. You want to fight like Luke! Your mystery was too easy to solve.


I don't have to know anything about cars. We have people (you) to fix it for us for pocket change. You're a policeman? Why are you playing around with swords and dreaming of becoming a samurai? Aren't you happy with the gun that you carry?


We have people in society (you) who are paid to protect normal people (me) from sword weilding psychos. I'm not losing too much sleep.


Born in the 70's. Star Wars fanatic. Samurai/ninja dreams. Muscle-head. Grease-monkey.
You're a mixed box of tools! Who said flames weren't constructive? This one ended a bit quickly that I had hoped.

Hey, in this country, most of those are compliments. I knew you would be looking at my profile so I rewrote it just for smart guys like you who believe everything they read.

I notice you reveal little of yourself. I guess you are too embarassed. Oh well. In your next life perhaps you will be a grease monkey with samurai/ninja dreams. One can only hope.

The thing I hate about the internet is...I would probably be good friends with all of you, even yowai, in person... :( But internet just makes flame wars so darn easy...

[Koushinkuma]

Hey, in this country, most of those are compliments. I knew you would be looking at my profile so I rewrote it just for smart guys like you who believe everything they read.

I notice you reveal little of yourself. I guess you are too embarassed. Oh well. In your next life perhaps you will be a grease monkey with samurai/ninja dreams. One can only hope.

The thing I hate about the internet is...I would probably be good friends with all of you, even yowai, in person... :( But internet just makes flame wars so darn easy...

By the way, yowai, you seem far too interested in me, my posts, and my obsessions. Perhaps you are looking for a date with a mahnly mahn? I'm a part-time lumberjack in the summer, too. :emb:

Just remember that next time you bring your civic to the shop and look at the mechanic all bent over. :scared:

[Koushinkuma]

I just thought people didn't use hasso and other kamaes because they're ineffective, not because it's been watered down. For instance, in hasso, your men is wide open, it's not nearly as effective as chudan.
OH! And now a days, millions of people are doing Kendo and actively trying to improve the art and all its aspects. With their training, modern Kendo swordplay might be even MORE effective than Kenjutsu in the more precise way to combat someone (with the exceptions of kicks and stuff) simply because its been evolved by a large group of people searching for the most efficient and effective means of combat.

To be honest, I think your ego is being slight hurt that despite all your size and physical advantages, it's still possible to lose. You may be griping that because Kendo is suppose to be how warriors fought in olden days, physical advantage should lead to advantage in keiko, but that isn't the case in Kendo. Just an observation on why you might feel that way.

Secondly, your way of kendo sounds fun, i'll play you, though I think I'm a bit smaller than a body builder. It would be interesting to play someone who played your style of Kendo (especially if that person got owned by me).

Thank you Will, for your understanding and insight. As for your first point, I don't know but it sounds good and I hope that's the case. As for the next, I think you hit the nail on the head in some ways. But I still think modern kendo is "missing" something. Perhaps as some have said more or less politely, I'm not "qualified" to say that...but, sometimes a relatively "outside" perspective is helpful to people who have been doing something a long time and are very highly vested in it.

Third, thanks. My dojo is open anytime, pm me if you ever plan on coming to the NE US...we'd love to have you.

[Yowai]

Hey, in this country, most of those are compliments. I knew you would be looking at my profile so I rewrote it just for smart guys like you who believe everything they read.

I notice you reveal little of yourself. I guess you are too embarassed. Oh well. In your next life perhaps you will be a grease monkey with samurai/ninja dreams. One can only hope.

I have revealed enough in that other thread.
You seem to have cooled down. Can't win 'em arguments eh? I hope you do continue to carry on your new Kendo ryu. Have you lost interest in that as well?

[Koushinkuma]

I have revealed enough in that other thread.
You seem to have cooled down. Can't win 'em arguments eh? I hope you do continue to carry on your new Kendo ryu. Have you lost interest in that as well?

You also seem to have cooled down. Can't make comebacks to 'em insults eh? Can dish it out but can't take it?

I've known a lot of people that act like that...most of them under 12. ;)

Don't worry tough guy you'll get it someday.

[dorkusxmaximus]

Why would I want to steal your vocabulary hahaha? You're so pathetic that you've gone down to an immature child's level of name-calling. You couldn't think of anything better to say, so you tried calling me names, thought up some corny retorts (like you did just now), and horribly speculated about what kind of person I am. What? You couldn't think of anything more intelligent to say than that? Who's the kid now? Shows how smart you really are haha .How old are you exactly, genius? I expected middle school kids to do something like this, but a grown man? That's funny :D . Actually, I used "sir" to mock you, but you didn't seem to notice that. Who's the moron now? For some dude that has 6 degrees, you sure lack a lot of credibility in your "research", based on previous posts. What's with crap like, "I've read it somewhere". Instead of that, why don't you tell us the title of the book or article? Credibility is one of the first things you would learn in English class when you're writing a research paper. Without citing where you got your sources from, who in the right mind would believe you? You didn't seem to know that, so I highly doubt you have any PhD's. Attacking my screen name now. That really hurts hahha. Like I said before, this crap is funny =). Anyway, insult me to your hearts content because that's the only thing you're somewhat decent in. Here's a suggestion, why don't you continue to tell everyone how pathetic and uneducated I am. Don't forget my 12 kids, my job at McDonald's, and my 473814789708777th time trying to get my GED.

[Yowai]

He mimics most of my words. When his attempt to withdraw from this discussion is mentioned, he snaps back defensively.

[Koushinkuma]

In any case I just wanted to thank everyone who has written sincerely for your thoughts on my ideas...I'm sorry if I come across with strong words at times as I do get heated when I feel I'm insulted...but I guess that is just another 'suki,' like relying too much on strength. So thank you to yowai and dorkhead ;) for reminding me of this weakness, which must be as applicable in life as in kendo.

At the outset I asked for people's input and reading back through this thread have received that in abundance, which is really welcome. I've gotten a lot of food for thought on my very own 'ryu' as yowai put it, which has reinspired me to go look at "normal" kendo a lot more before I go about reinventing the wheel.

I would like to know something about kenjutsu though if anyone is familiar with it, or the Korean battlefield art that someone mentioned earlier? Any useful sources of information on either? I tried looking for the Korean art (sorry I can't remember the name at the second...it's 2 in the morning) but nothing came up.

Regards,

Koushinkuma :happy:

[Koushinkuma]

In any case I just wanted to thank everyone who has written sincerely for your thoughts on my ideas...I'm sorry if I come across with strong words at times as I do get heated when I feel I'm insulted...but I guess that is just another 'suki,' like relying too much on strength. So thank you to yowai and dorkhead ;) for reminding me of this weakness, which must be as applicable in life as in kendo.


* Sorry, Dorkusmaximus.

[Koushinkuma]

Also, Dorkusmaximus, I want to apologize to you for my post before because rereading it it was too strong of a reaction to what I perceived as a slight. So I am sorry about that. If you are really interested I can find you my sources, it'll just take me a bit of time to track them down. Peace?

[Kingofmyrrh]

I don`t know why I`m daring to enter into this, but I just wanted to say a couple of things. Firstly, it is true to say that the men cut we use these days would have been protected back in the days of real battlefields. As, in fact, was kote. And do (although this last one is somewhat dependent on the armour style, I`ve heard). They say that cuts were aimed at the joints in the armour, such as at the neck, or a more diagonal style cut through the shoulder. If you have a chance to see footage of koryu then you`ll probably observe some of these cuts. I can only imagine that the straight vertical cut became popular after sengakuji when duelists (there were no real battles after all) rarely fought with much more than basic padding.
As to the decline of other kamae, this has nothing to do with them being intrinsically weak. They obviously have some value to have survived this long. However, they are kamae designed for use with a sword, not a shinai. With a shinai being so much lighter and easier to move, the off-centre position becomes a disadvantage that is hard to overcome. Modern kendo and certain stances just don`t seem to be compatible. I don`t really care since I`m not into it for the realism, and I don`t really see modern kendo as having all that many concrete ties to the old days, but I could certainly understand if some people were bothered.
People should hit hard. I was surprised when I came out here at how hard students hit. And they love their tsuki. However, it`s a matter of hitting hard CORRECTLY. I`m not trying to say that anyone does or doesn`t do this, but if you do it properly then you can hit hard without any loss of speed. Same thing with leg speed. You can only acheive so much by building leg muscle. If you don`t have correct technique then you just won`t be able to move as fast as someone who does. Mind you, judging by the proliferation of weight training among the to kendoka of the day, it seems that the reverse is also true. Keio`s shihan, Fukumoto sensei, while hardly being an old man, is not exactly in his twenties either, but he can hit you hard enough to stun without thinking about it (although he doesn`t, because he`s nice). However, if you look at his arms and shoulders, they are completely relaxed, he`s not using his muscles to generate that power (well, I mean, of course he is since without muscle you can`t move the skeleton, but you know what I mean...). If you check the last issue of Kendo Jidai, there is a special feature on using the right hand correctly. Fukumoto sensei was chosen to write the header article, so I feel that it`s safe to say that he`s a good example of correct cutting, although of course you could just rely on that hanshi rank to do the talking :-)
Lastly, while everyone loves to listen to a bit of the old philosophical chat from one`s teacher, a teacher who doesn`t do this shouldn`t be criticised. After all, it`s generally accepted that like most elements of kendo, this kind of stuff isn`t really understood through words, but with the accumulation of experience. If a teacher wants you to find out on your own, then that`s their right as a teacher. Anyway, I don`t think it`s something I`ve got to worry about for a few decades...

[Relic]

I generally do try to "force" a weakness in my opponent by psyching out, etc., when I can, but I think the problem is that it's very easy to tell when I'm launching a real attack because, well, it's more obvious than with wiry dudes that are loaded like a 100psi slinky.


"100psi slinky" ... just created a very funny mental image for me, hehe.
In my experience it is not a viable strategy to force or psyche an opponent. It works against lower level kendoka but as you may or may not have experienced yourself, when you reach a certain level you are no longer so easily phased by your opponent's moves, and your energy will work more for your own position than against your opponent's. I'm sorry I can't really put it into better words than that but that is how I feel. Does it make sense?

With regards to launching an attack, rest assured that the slimmer types out there (me being one of them) are just as easy to spot. Attacking fast is rarely enough and I think most everyone has their own tiny signal (tension of the legs, arms, shinai, any small thing). I find that timing (obviously) is very important, but another thing I have also noticed is that if your work on your posture and your footwork you can be well into an attack before the opponent notices the change, simply because attacking is in the flow of your movements.
I guess I made that sound a bit more exotic than I wanted. It's not mystical. :-)


I mean, there must be a reason that most of the big fighters in nature and in human society are big! Think cops, tigers, T-rexes, Darth Vader, sharks, etc. Size does have certain advantages.


Tigers do have claws, teeth and camouflage going for them as well. In spite of that they're only succesful maybe in one of every three hunts, T-rexes are extinct (and IIRC there were much larger herbivore dinosaurs out there), and Vader got his arse kicked by a young upstart whose Fu was better. ;-)


And our sensei has sometimes disappointed me by starting off a lecture on something cool, like proper zanshin, and finishing it off with a watered down statement like, "and if you don't have it, you're not going to get the point."

I can certainly understand why that disappoints you. I am not a supporter of "point-kendo" myself but I can understand that some people are. I'm afraid I can't add much to what others have noted and what you say yourself: the only points that matter are the ones you score with yourself. I see people moving their head in shiai, to avoid points being scored. The same people don't do it in keiko because they know it's not good style (and had it been a real sword a strike to the shoulder would still have taken them out). That really bugs me. When I told this to my teacher he smiled and said that he could understand but that I would just have to "learn to adapt and hit them anyway". :-)

True, zanshin is necessary to get a point. Turning it around though, zanshin is necessary for the point because zanshin is an important part of proper kendo. I would suggest you take your sensei up on it and ask his opinion of shiai and the importance of scoring points. Open a discussion about the importance of zanshin in kendo. I am sure he would have a lot to say about it and who knows - maybe he just says the points thing because he knows it's the right motivation for a lot of people.

Hang in there.

[Khabbi]

I was gonna write a long post about whats wrong with Koushinkuma way of thinking , but then i changed my mind coz it seems like a lost cause

Guess some ppl will never understand kendo

[Koushinkuma]

If you would like to contribute something please do so.

[dorkusxmaximus]

Yeah, I'm interested. PM me once you find them. Anyway, take care.

[Koushinkuma]

I don`t know why I`m daring to enter into this, but I just wanted to say a couple of things. Firstly, it is true to say that the men cut we use these days would have been protected back in the days of real battlefields. As, in fact, was kote. And do (although this last one is somewhat dependent on the armour style, I`ve heard). They say that cuts were aimed at the joints in the armour, such as at the neck, or a more diagonal style cut through the shoulder. If you have a chance to see footage of koryu then you`ll probably observe some of these cuts. I can only imagine that the straight vertical cut became popular after sengakuji when duelists (there were no real battles after all) rarely fought with much more than basic padding.
As to the decline of other kamae, this has nothing to do with them being intrinsically weak. They obviously have some value to have survived this long. However, they are kamae designed for use with a sword, not a shinai. With a shinai being so much lighter and easier to move, the off-centre position becomes a disadvantage that is hard to overcome. Modern kendo and certain stances just don`t seem to be compatible. I don`t really care since I`m not into it for the realism, and I don`t really see modern kendo as having all that many concrete ties to the old days, but I could certainly understand if some people were bothered.
People should hit hard. I was surprised when I came out here at how hard students hit. And they love their tsuki. However, it`s a matter of hitting hard CORRECTLY. I`m not trying to say that anyone does or doesn`t do this, but if you do it properly then you can hit hard without any loss of speed. Same thing with leg speed. You can only acheive so much by building leg muscle. If you don`t have correct technique then you just won`t be able to move as fast as someone who does. Mind you, judging by the proliferation of weight training among the to kendoka of the day, it seems that the reverse is also true. Keio`s shihan, Fukumoto sensei, while hardly being an old man, is not exactly in his twenties either, but he can hit you hard enough to stun without thinking about it (although he doesn`t, because he`s nice). However, if you look at his arms and shoulders, they are completely relaxed, he`s not using his muscles to generate that power (well, I mean, of course he is since without muscle you can`t move the skeleton, but you know what I mean...). If you check the last issue of Kendo Jidai, there is a special feature on using the right hand correctly. Fukumoto sensei was chosen to write the header article, so I feel that it`s safe to say that he`s a good example of correct cutting, although of course you could just rely on that hanshi rank to do the talking :-)
Lastly, while everyone loves to listen to a bit of the old philosophical chat from one`s teacher, a teacher who doesn`t do this shouldn`t be criticised. After all, it`s generally accepted that like most elements of kendo, this kind of stuff isn`t really understood through words, but with the accumulation of experience. If a teacher wants you to find out on your own, then that`s their right as a teacher. Anyway, I don`t think it`s something I`ve got to worry about for a few decades...

Thank you what is IMHO a very insightful post. My only question is with one point in your final paragraph. It's not that my sensei doesn't like to talk philosophically on occasion; he does, and that has been VERY useful, oftentimes outside the dojo. It was more the specific instance of talking about zanshin and leading up to discussion of its importance for getting...a point. It made me think that the importance of everything in kendo is just for getting points? Of course that's not true, but in that moment it just struck me as odd and kind of threw me off. Which contrasts a lot with what other people have said about points not being so important, it's really all about developing "beauty," grace, accuracy, etc. I guess one really needs to set one's own goals in kendo? But why then such emphasis on "points" anyway? Esp. when the judging seems so subjective?

[Koushinkuma]

"100psi slinky" ... just created a very funny mental image for me, hehe.
In my experience it is not a viable strategy to force or psyche an opponent. It works against lower level kendoka but as you may or may not have experienced yourself, when you reach a certain level you are no longer so easily phased by your opponent's moves, and your energy will work more for your own position than against your opponent's. I'm sorry I can't really put it into better words than that but that is how I feel. Does it make sense?

With regards to launching an attack, rest assured that the slimmer types out there (me being one of them) are just as easy to spot. Attacking fast is rarely enough and I think most everyone has their own tiny signal (tension of the legs, arms, shinai, any small thing). I find that timing (obviously) is very important, but another thing I have also noticed is that if your work on your posture and your footwork you can be well into an attack before the opponent notices the change, simply because attacking is in the flow of your movements.
I guess I made that sound a bit more exotic than I wanted. It's not mystical. :-)



Tigers do have claws, teeth and camouflage going for them as well. In spite of that they're only succesful maybe in one of every three hunts, T-rexes are extinct (and IIRC there were much larger herbivore dinosaurs out there), and Vader got his arse kicked by a young upstart whose Fu was better. ;-)



I can certainly understand why that disappoints you. I am not a supporter of "point-kendo" myself but I can understand that some people are. I'm afraid I can't add much to what others have noted and what you say yourself: the only points that matter are the ones you score with yourself. I see people moving their head in shiai, to avoid points being scored. The same people don't do it in keiko because they know it's not good style (and had it been a real sword a strike to the shoulder would still have taken them out). That really bugs me. When I told this to my teacher he smiled and said that he could understand but that I would just have to "learn to adapt and hit them anyway". :-)

True, zanshin is necessary to get a point. Turning it around though, zanshin is necessary for the point because zanshin is an important part of proper kendo. I would suggest you take your sensei up on it and ask his opinion of shiai and the importance of scoring points. Open a discussion about the importance of zanshin in kendo. I am sure he would have a lot to say about it and who knows - maybe he just says the points thing because he knows it's the right motivation for a lot of people.

Hang in there.

Thanks for your encouragement. True true about the tiggers and t-rexes and the Vader, but hey he was supposed to be old. I guess that's what happens when you rely too much on strength, and then you age. :happy:

The thing with the slinky was the best example I could think of for describing many of those I've faced who are blessed with the "kendo physique." Ever since I was about 10 I've accelerated variously like a pillow filled with pizza, a listing and sinking battleship, or at best perhaps like an overly salmon stuffed pre-hibernation white-phase black bear. So slim muscular guys have always seemed spring-loaded to me.

I think I will ask my sensei about the importance of points and see if he is willing to expand on it.

[Will]

...It was more the specific instance of talking about zanshin and leading up to discussion of its importance for getting...a point. It made me think that the importance of everything in kendo is just for getting points? Of course that's not true, but in that moment it just struck me as odd and kind of threw me off. Which contrasts a lot with what other people have said about points not being so important, it's really all about developing "beauty," grace, accuracy, etc. I guess one really needs to set one's own goals in kendo? But why then such emphasis on "points" anyway? Esp. when the judging seems so subjective?

Kendo is suppose to "simulate" battles between to swordsmen. Despite how Kendo has evolved over the years, it's underlying principle is it is combat between two individuals. Points are the representations of the blow that would kill/disable the opponent. When people say get a point, they want you to remember that the main objective of Kendo is to beat the opponent, to simulate beating them in combat by killing/disabiling them. When people say don't worry about the point, they're telling you, at that point in time to worry about your Kendo form (i.e. you're not ready to worry about actually defeating the opponent). So basically, first worry about your form so you could effectively and efficiently defeat your opponent. Second, worry about actually defeating the opponenet.
You'll see that in lower ranks they'll tell you to worry about the form and not the point. In the early yudansha they'll tell you about getting the point. And then in the later yudanshas they tell you to worry about form once again. They're stressing at different points of time what your Kendo needs to improve. In the early yudansha levels, it's important to learn and distinguish what is a point and what's not, hence worry about getting the point. Once you've reached the later levels, you know what a point is comprised of and therefore do not need to worry about it once again. Kind of odd, i know. (i hope that made sense, if you read it as a stream of consciousness, i think it does)

[Kingofmyrrh]

I don`t have much time, but I`ll try and write about `the point`. In my opinion, ippon is one of the main guiding forces in my kendo life. This is not because I want to just win in competitions, although I do enjoy shiai. It`s because ippon stands for all that we aim for in kendo. I don`t think it makes much sense to think of a point as being an artificially imposed standard that decides whether a cut is any good or not. Yes, ippon is used in competitions, but that does not mean it has no meaning elsewhere. Ippon is the kind of attack that one aims to cut everytime. Presuming that the referees know what they`re doing, any attack that does not score a point is literally worthless in kendo terms, at least as I see it. This is because ippon describes not just a chance attack, but one where the original intention is realised, which will naturally flow into zanshin. Of course, in a competition, who can blame somebody for trying to artificially tack a certain type of body movement and yell onto a chance blow to make it look like the real thing and take the victory?
If you`ve felt the difference between managing to strike someone amidst a random flurry of blows, and spending time getting an opponent to make just the movement you want him to so that you can score the hit you were planning 30 seconds ago, then you`ll understand what I mean. The first brings no satisfaction, the second is just great to achieve. In terms of combat effectiveness they are just the same, but as I have said before I don`t consider kendo to be all that closely related to that kind of thing. Ippon, or `the point` if you will, is what separates kendo from melee fighting and makes it `budo`. I`m not trying to say that because it`s budo then it`s good, although that is the way I feel. If budo isn`t what floats your boat then everything I`ve said is fairly meaningless, and I`m sure there are many people who would feel that way. But anyway, that feeling inside you of achieving exactly what you wanted is `the point`, not what a bunch of people with flags do. It`s not just something that exists in shiai, but something that is foremost in my mind whenever I pick up a shinai.

There is a discrepancy in what I`ve said in that people at a very high level describe `mushin waza`, that is, techniques bereft of intention which spontaneously arise, as the ultimate ippon. But I wouldn`t know anything about that... :-)

[ALI G]

He mimics most of my words. When his attempt to withdraw from this discussion is mentioned, he snaps back defensively.

He mimics most of my words. When his attempt to withdraw from this discussion is mentioned, he snaps back defensively.

[ALI G]

Wow. Ikkyu to yondan in one day. Impressive. Maybe you should talk to the beginners who are easily surpassing you about your new imaginary Kendo ryu.
Mez wood ratherz do a Kendo ryuz den be a quitta!!!!!


I don't know anything about cars.

Youz dontz knowz anytingz about kendoz eitha...


We have people in society (you) who are paid to protect normal people (me)

Itz Peepz likez himz dat protekz da "Yowai/Weakboy" peepz...........


This one ended a bit quickly.

Kindz of likez youz Kendo Careerz iznt it???

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don`t have much time, but I`ll try and write about `the point`.,,snip excellent discussion
All I can say about that post is... Ippon! Shobu-ari!

[Koushinkuma]

Thanks for your thoughts, KingofMyrhh, they are very intriguing. I hadn't thought about kendo points in that way...I guess I'm programmed to see points are something concrete, like crossing the finish line, scoring a touchdown, etc. But the combination of external guiding factors/internal recognition you discuss is fascinating. I guess I can understand this in terms of what I feel I know well, my weightlifting routines...there are no "points," but there are different numbers of reps and of course amounts of weight to pile on, and I get a similar feeling in both kendo and weight training when I feel I have achieved something. And it's funny, the similiarity doesn't stop there: in both, you need correct form, speed, timing, and breathing. IMHO only when all these come together at once is there something approaching excellence.

LOL Ali G. :D

[litige]

Amen to that King!

skills rules!! ;)

[Kingofmyrrh]

er... just wanted to add something for clarification... even though I described my perception of ippon as an internal thing, that doesn`t mean that it`s ill defined or ambiguous. The distinction in my mind when I strike between ippon and worthless is just as clear and distinct as the discrete up/down positioning of a flag. There`s no middle ground. However, even though I feel fairly confident of what I feel, I have absolutely no idea how to explain what I mean further than what I`ve already said. So I won`t try.

[cazoo]

Koushinkuma, try going against Wendy Nakano from Steveston Dojo in Vancouver, Canada. She's small yet, she can still probably beat you. you'll then understand that gender and size/strength doesnt matter much in kendo.

[Koushinkuma]

Koushinkuma, try going against Wendy Nakano from Steveston Dojo in Vancouver, Canada. She's small yet, she can still probably beat you. you'll then understand that gender and size/strength doesnt matter much in kendo.

I know. That's was my point. :rolleyes:

But thanks. :)

[Swissv2]

ok I had to add this. If you want real stuff, take this. http://dogbrothers.com/
That will give you plenty to do the hard hitting combat you seem to like.

[hyuna]

A few thoughts.

First, as someone who is neither particularly strong nor particularly quick, I would say that kendo equally favors the strong and the fast, even if it doesn't always seem like it. That is to say that an opponent who is strong (and controlled!) can make it very difficult for me to maintain center control, to perform oji-waza, etc. A fast but weak harai does nothing, but a slow and powerful harai can be very effective. I have, moreover, found that my kendo was greatly improved when I took up some light resistance training -- the reality is that strength is required to make movements that are both large and quick. However, I would also point out that it is a general training maxim that you have to practice what you will be doing, so the strength gains through pure weight training may not be the right strength gains.

Secondly, in arguing against "tappy" kendo, one gets the impression that speed and strength are somehow opposed to each other, but that is not true. Strength is necessary for speed. Again, this is something I, as someone with a twig-like stature, am very familiar with. However what is required in addition to strength is the ability to relax. If you are fighting yourself, you cannot be fast. Well, you can be fast in a way -- you can be fast at tiring yourself out. But, the point is that linebackers are not slow guys.

Thirdly, a tap is not necessarily weak. If someone throws a sledgehammer at your head but it is stopped before actually hitting you, it feels like even less than a tap. Personally, I must work dilligently at simultaneously swinging more strongly and having it land more lightly. It seems like a paradox, but it isn't. At the AUSKF summer camp this past weekend, Hayashi sensei said that just before impact you must release all strength. There are phases to the motion.

Also at the camp, Hayashi sensei was asked about uchiotoshi waza, where one parries a do cut by striking down the blade. The question had to do with the fact that such a block is inappropriate for a sword. His response, to summarize, was that a shinai is not a sword. So I think it is some truth that kendo has lost some of its (pardon the pun) edge. I do not agree that it is "simpler" or has been "reduced" for it, however.

Everything that has been simplified away has been replaced with its own complexity. Yes, it is not realistic to be reduced to 5 1/2 target areas (1/2 for left kote, which is only open "sometimes"). That does not make kendo any easier. For every scoring method taken away (for example, choking someone with their do), the emphasis on the remaining methods is increased. That does not make anything easier, even if it is simpler. What it does is change the character of kendo in an important way. Which returns me to where I started.

Speed kendo and strength kendo are really the same thing in the larger context. As was said before, kendo is for life. Both speed and strength will fade away as one ages, so neither are the true way. They are really aspects of the same thing, so in my opinion, any comment levied against the one applies equally to the other. When your opponent knows what you are going to do, you cannot rely on speed or strength to win. It might work for the short term, when one is still young, but that is all. The ability for someone who is not physically fast or powerful to win even when the faster/stronger person knows what is coming is what makes kendo unique and amazing.

Finally, I'm sorry you feel handicaped by your size and strength, but I do not feel very bad for you: you have an advantage I do not. Rather than focusing on the methods other people use to defeat you, I think you should look at the assets you do have and learn how to best apply them, and then proceed to learn to transcend them.

[Rawoo]

I think u r crazy
and I think the only people who can be called good kendo players
(technically): are those who can deliver a strong proper men strike with Big spirit and huge zenshin.
(spiritually): are those who attend every training and train as hard as possible.


:devious:

[Twobitmage]

side to a side note...

Most samurai would do their best not to aim for the armor and try to cut through it (so I hear). Samurai swords are among the toughest in the world, but when you bang it against hard armor it will chip. I wouldnt wanna wreck my granddad's heirloom sword, but thats just me.

[Seoul Man]

Koushinkuma,

I understand exactly how you feel but I think Kingofmyrrh put it most eloquently in a previous post, "Ippon is the kind of attack that one aims to cut everytime." I have also trained in a weaponless form of martial arts and continue to practice it alongside of kendo so I am very familiar with your concerns. I am also most fortunate that I teach martial arts for a living so I am able to observe a lot of people during their learining process. In my humble opinion, most people are not learning in order to defend themselves in a real fight but to better some part of their life. Someone earlier made a sarcastic remark about using a gun to truly even things out but I think the point is relevant in today's society, at least in the US. Someone with years of martial arts experience is just as vulnerable to a bullet as someone with none.

My point is that I just try to remember that we are all learning kendo for very different reasons than those who came before us. No one walks around with swords anymore (at least not here in the US) so the likeliehood of a real duel with live blades is almost non-existant. In fact, the whole idea of do, or dao if you prefer, in martial arts is finding the way through diligent, persistant, repetitive, boring, sweaty, knuckle-busting training. It's a way to cultivate the person through hardship and the honing of good technique. We are all hindered with perceived disadvantages but the way you deal with them is the real test of what you are learning - but then again I'm sure you already knew that.

I don't mean to get too philisophical here but perhaps your struggle isn't to overcome that kid with less experience and people like him. Perhaps your struggle at this point is learning that it doesn't matter what he or others think about who beat who. If you are learning with every encounter and praciticing harder then you are taking steps, even if some are baby steps, to find your own way and that is what kendo will provide for you. I think you are learning something about yourself that perhaps other martial arts did not touch upon in your previous training. You acknowledge that you have been conditioned to see a "point" as a score and a means of winning a match. I think most of us have been conditioned with this attitude whether we admit it or not. Perhaps kendo is your tool to break or change this conditioning.

I saw a documentary called, A Single Blow, or something like that. It followed the captain that lead the Japan Team to the World Kendo Championships in Glasgow, Eiga Naoki. In a previous tournament, he had lost to the reigning All Japan Kendo champion because he said the technique he (Eiga Naoki) used was calculated and considered - a technique that he had practiced and practiced. He said that he went back to basics and put the idea of winning and losing out of his mind and focused only on the technique. This is the attitude I strive to keep about me when I engage an opponent. The outcome of a kendo match is not about life and death least of all winning and losing. It is about the exchange of good and proper technique.

Anyway, I wish you good luck and hope for your continued participation in kendo despite this small, albeit frustrating, setback.

[neit]

i think its more excersizing control, than weak hitting. heh i took tkd in highschool and would "tap" people in sparring unless i really thought they could take the hit. then people inform me that my kicks lack power, but fall down and complain when i hit them for real. anyways kinda off topic, but i can't see the problem with controlling your cuts. as long as your technique is solid.

[Twobitmage]

edit:bleh ignore this post.