Kiai

[akihiro]

Question, what is the most interesting or unusual kiai you have ever encountered or heard?

For me, it was in Canada a few years back, in Toronto I believe. This guy's kiai sounded like he was screaming "WHAT'S UP" in a high pitched voice. I had to restrain myself from answering back "NOT MUCH".

[hobbit]

It's not kendo, but i always liked monica seles, she always sounded like she was crying "why me" - i'd reply, "why not?"

[stakenaka]

The strangest kiai that I have encountered came from a person cooing like a pigeon!

[alexpollijr]

"WHATS UP" is a very common kind of kiai I think :D

Even mine sometimes sounds like it...

[cklin]

akihiro: I think I know the guy you're talking about! He was at a Harvard tournament a few years ago and his opponent actually did reply "NOTHING MUCH!"

The judge didn't give him a hansoku though. :P

[Achilles]

We used to joke in my old Japanese dojo that you could get a company to sponsor your kiai. So Coca-Cola would pay you a nickel if every time you kiaied you yelled "Enjoy Coca-Cola!".

[stakenaka]

Of course, we cannot forget the good old Xena Kiai. I heard this once or twice.

[deanoclark]

There is a very high ranking sensei I know of who's kiai sounds a lot like a cockatoo (parrot) screeching like you pulled it's tail feathers out.....

But he's pretty hard and no-one would ever dare mention it within earshot of him :D

[dr_evil]

Guys,

Sorry to wander off a bit from the thread but I have something to ask ya'll. How's the proper kiai performed? All my senseis said that the voice should come from the 'hara' and not from the throat but I can't figure it out. Tried a few times but cannot make it work, hope you guys can fill me in on this one.

Cheers,
The Evil One

[alexpollijr]

Keep trying to kiai from the hara, and tell me the results seven years from now ;)

Seriously, Ito sensei (hachidan in Iai and Kendo) tried to teach us how to do it. He asked us to take a deep breath to suck in two seconds as much air as possible. Than to release it slowly over the course of two minutes. And releasing a kiai after 1 min. Nobody could do it. The key is to scream without releasing much air, I think, since inhaling generates suki, according to these sensei, while exhaling does not.

[Charlie]

Evil, good question. And also I think links right up to Kendo World's article(s) on breathing from Dr. A.

As Dr. A says, a lot of kendo-ka go outside of the traditional methods for learning breathing (even if learning breathing is actually within the teaching to begin with). I'd had some martial arts experience prior to kendo, and also some yoga, and this really helped. Best way to learn how to push things into the hara would be, I think - ask a singer. Seriously. Ask a singer's opinion, or someone who plays a woodwind or brass musical instument. Also, a yogi.

I can actually feel when my kiai is creeping up out of my hara and into my throat. Then I know I'm getting tired/etc. and I can push it back down.

"H" sounds really do it for me, help me articulate it, so I frequently yell (surprise) "Hara-hara!!"

That said, the original purpose of the thread, there's a guy from around here somewhere that we call Hawk Man for his kiai.

The first time I did shia I yelled so loud and so much I got applause. It's cuz I was so freaked out!

[akihiro]

cklin: I wonder if it is the same guy. However, alexpollijr has pointed out that the 'whats up' kiai might be common. Who knows.

[cklin]

akihiro: I think it is b/c he was on the U of Toronto team... :)

As to how to come from the hara... if anyone sings, then it's the same thing -- you support your voice w/ your diaphragm. It's like you're forcing the air out of your lungs by pushing w/ your diaphragm.

I think it's much easier to understand (and more natural) if you're able to stand in kamae with a tense midsection (which to me is, as I like to tell my kohai, like you're constipated and you're trying to do #2)...

[cklin]

Come to think of it, there was this one guy I played with who would kiai "men-ari" (or "kote-ari", etc).

[Kenshi]

Ive heard the odd "asssss" ... and "whay-oh" (of "+whaaay-oh, hear I come and I wanna go home" fame) ... "uso" (japanese:lie) ... "men-saa" (smart peoples men) ...... etc etc

Oh, yeah - "kote kote kote kote ariiiiiiii" for when you *know* youve smacked one in :)

[Confound]

The funniest kiai i ever heard (and still hear on a regular basis) is "yush" (sounds like 'youshe'). it's a sound generally made by japanese males when they do such momentous things as getting up from their desks, going to fetch their lunches, or climbing stairs... it's a ubiquitous japanese expression with no meaning. it is like an announcement: "i'm about to do something now". it sounds so silly as a kiai. the first time i heard it, i laughed too hard.

the other funny one is the 'eh' 'tou' combo. One of the guys i train with starts every exercise or match with 'eh?', then his striking kiai is 'tou'.It doesn't sound funny typed out, but i guess you have to hear it.

c

[KhawMengLee]

I usually go...
"ku" (no meaning for me) then "sak!" sounds like sark or suck...actually its the chinese/cantonese word for "kill". Watch cantonese movies and you will hear them say it.


Sounds a bit also like Kusok, which is just...well...sh1t...

I also on occasion scold "Tut! Tut! Tut!" usually moving forward and smacking down on my opponent's shinai in conjunction with each call. It sorta works in driving back some opponents and helps me break their center.

(That one I read somewhere in Musashi's book of five rings and decided to try it out.)

Meng

[alexpollijr]

Funny you said, my sensei frequently says 'yoush' but I never figured out what was that. Thank you for the enlightenment.

As for 'Ehhh To', I do know a Nipo-Brazilian who screams exactly like that.

I've herd so many kiai so far that I don't find anything weird anymore.

[KhawMengLee]

The funniest kiai i ever heard (and still hear on a regular basis) is "yush" (sounds like 'youshe'). it's a sound generally made by japanese males when they do such momentous things as getting up from their desks, going to fetch their lunches, or climbing stairs... it's a ubiquitous japanese expression with no meaning. it is like an announcement: "i'm about to do something now". it sounds so silly as a kiai. the first time i heard it, i laughed too hard.

What about:

"O ra" I hear this one heaps.

or

"gnnoookk" sorta sounds like someone saying "knock" but with a cold. One of my Japanese Uni mates said this at the start of every sentence.

Meng

[Confound]

gnook? never heard that one. could be regional, like youshu.

what about ne? every heard that one?

c

[Steve]

Funniest Kiai I've heard so far would have to be a couple of guys from our club. The first (his names Tim) sounds like Popeye laughing (Ah-ga-ga-ga-ga-ga). The second (Chris) likes to perform Bird calls from time to time. This, of course, isn't the kiai when they call out men or kote etcc...

We also have the usual Men-saaa, Men-shaaa, menmenmenmen.

I have a VERY high pitched kiai compared to my normal voice. Some have commented that i sound like some kind of spastic woman on crack, but it works for me!

[David J]

There's a guy at our dojo that goes something like "Hassayyyyy!" - I thought this was his particular thing, until I heard someone at another dojo do it too. Is it an established (Karate?) thing or something?

<rei>

Dave

[Confound]

I don't know if it's karate, but I have heard kiai that sound similar.

c

[Ares2907]

At a dojo I used to train at, there was a young guy whose kiai was 'YADAAAAAAAA'. You were guaranteed a chuckle from one or more of the Japanese-speaking kendoka every time he let it rip. Funny stuff.

Ares2907

[kendokamax]

my kiai is men saaaaaaaaa
kote saaaaaaaaaaa

why?!

steve your kiai( if i'm not mistaken of the person i'm talking to )sounds like someone who is laughing.
Sounded like "hehehheehe"

During keiko against you I thought you were making fun at me
haha

[hamish]

Originally posted by Confound
it's a ubiquitous japanese expression with no meaning. it is like an announcement: "i'm about to do something now". it sounds so silly as a kiai. the first time i heard it, i laughed too hard.


Far from having no meaning, it means "well...", "right...", "OK..", at least according to the dictionary, but you'd probably translate it in this context as "let's go!", and I use it a bit myself when encouraging kids in it's other meaning of good, well done.

The best kiai story I heard was at the Kyoto Taikai, when one sensei starts with "irasshai!" (welcome!) The other sensei promptly responded by tsuki-ing him back!

[Achilles]

My Kiai is "Wayo!" it's the polite form of the verb "come" in Korean. So essentially, I'm politely saying "come on!"

I guess in the Japanese it would be "kimasu" as opposed to "koi!"

[Achilles]

Confound,

"ne" is Korean for "yes".

Also, why do you transliterate all your Japanese "o" endings with a "u"? For example, you write "kendo" as "kendou" and "do" and "dou". I'm not sure that's right. The pronunciation doesn't have a rising "u" sound at the end. It's a flat "o" sound. I think you mean "eh to" or maybe "eh toh", not "eh tou". Am I wrong?

[olaf]

Achilles: as I understand it, there are several internationally accepted methods of romanizing Japanese sounds.

If you look at the English naming convention used for Japanese subway station names, that is one method - it uses the standard English alphabet, with bars and dots above some letters to denote short/long sounds, etc. The other common method uses only standard English alphabet letters, but not the bars, dots, etc.

"Kendo", using this latter method, would be spelt "kendou". Likewise, "bougu", "dou", etc. Using the former method, one would actually write "kendo" with a bar over the "o", to denote the long sound. Writing the word simply as "kendo" actually conforms to none of the conventions, though for the sake of simplicity, it is widely used.

Try using a Japanese word processor with an English keyboard using the standard input methods; typing in "kendo" will not produce anything while "kendou" will.

Japanese speakers, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Will]

one time at a tournament i kiaied "die" on accident...most embarassing...I just make a loud sound from my gut and some times there are some constanents(sp) in front...

oh wellz...

[Achilles]

It may be the "correct" romanization, but it's still misleading. For an English speaker, a "u" after an "o" produces a double-o sound: (i.e. moo, like a cow or like the number two), or it can denote an "ow" sound, as in "mouse" or "house". But the O in kendo or do is a flat "o", as in "oh" or "low". What do you think?

[Kenshi]

Achilles,

Kendo = Kendou .. both are correct/fine, you just aren't familiar with both systems and the [pronounciation] rules of each.

Similiar to Americans telling me I spell coloUr (etc) incorrectly .... or even japanese people when I was teaching them English!!!

Should we change Karate to Karatay and Karaoke to Karaokay??

(I'm not attacking you btw!)

I had to put a "disclaimer" on my ye-ancient musashi site as I used to get people emailing me saying "um, youve got spelling mistakes" ... ridiculous, but true!

Back to ........

Kiai - I find that ending in a VOWEL is much more comfy to ending in a CONSONANT ..... I never did like "meN" but always added "menAAA" or "menOOO" or something. Anybody else think about this, or should I find something else to fill-up my time ?????

Cheers,

[alexpollijr]

George

I also have developed the habit of adding a vowel to the end of men. I don't know how it happened, in the very beginning I remember screaming "MEEnnhummm" but eventually it turned into "MennHAAA" or "MennHOOO".

[mingshi]

Forget about the Japanese-Roman translation stuff. I don't want to kiai "Dooouuuuuuuuuuuuu~" next time when I go for other people's Do!!

I recall someone says, Kiai is like singing. In theory people good at singing/ Karaoke would know better how to use their "Hara"... Also when you sing the word "Amen" in a hymn, you'll sing "Aa-Mee-n" with the n very soft. Same thing for kiai. Especially if you go for "Men"... I don't think your Hara can produce an N sound better then your nose.. :D

Yes I suppose people study linguistics would also agree that words ending with vowels are easier to be shouted out. According to my dictionary, Vowel is:-

A human speech sound in which the breath is let out without any stop or any closing of the air passage in the mouth.

There comes laziness! Notice that both Kote and Tsuki has 2 syllables... I've shorten them by saying "koeeeeee~!" and "tseeeeee~!"..... And recently my Men, Kote and Do became "Eiiii~~~!", "tEEEEeeee~~!" and "Ooooo~~!". Pure vowels. :p

Is there any set rules on what your kiai should be on the cut? Since the requirement is "Ki-Ken-Tai"... Does that mean that you can cut Kote with "meeeen~~!"?
:eek:

[David J]

I thought "tsuki" was one syllable...?

[KhawMengLee]

Heh, one of the sonkyu's in my dojo was doing kigeiko with a nidan. He was thinking "I'm gonna strike kote" and as he got back up from sonkyo he shouted out (accidentaly) "KOTE!!!!"

The nidan was like, "what?!?"

And the sonkyu guy made a kote cut and actually got it...heh

[kendo_chick]

My kiai is apparently very good (I don't like to boast) but I do get a lot of praise for it. I just open my mouth and scream something. I don't know, it's weird.

The strangest kiai I have ever heard is a girl from Canada screams but it sounds like a velociraptor. She is also very tiny so it's rather amusing.

A guy in my club actually sounds (well this is what I think) like a parrot in a whole lot of pain.

[Matthew Lagden]

There is a beginner at our Dojo who has the scariest Kiai I have ever heard - i have no idea what he is saying but it absolutely puts the fear of god into you and he is haflway to winning a point before he moves. It is kind of like a primal scream and makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

When he starts to compete he is going to win with that alone. I have asked him what he says and how he does it (because I think my Kiai is the weakest part of my Kendo - and the rest of it is not exactly brilliant either) and he just shrugs and says he doesn't really know.

[Charlie]

Matt, sounds like the guys is a natural in some ways. But he will still have other areas to work on. And, I think, sometimes when a person is kiai-ing too much or too loud, you can turn it against them. They can give away their intention, or betray their fear.

Not saying I take advantage of that; more like I get taken advantage of!

Mingsha, that's very interesting about singing and the consanent sounds. When I started doing kendo I played with kiai. I wanted a non-specific kiai because, if I yelled "Men!" and hit kote by accident, well... But if I yelled "jhfkjd!!" and hit kote (when I was aiming for men) shimpan might give it to me anyway!

To that end, I always tried to use "t" sounds or "h" sounds or just a string of vowels, to expel the breath. And always, as George said, end in a vowel to further this. So I would kiai

"t'ohhhhh!" (I hear this quite a bit. Also corresponds to the "Toh!" in kata.)

or "yaaa!" (kata) or "shoooooo!"

But, like I said, my favorite is still "hara!" or "Haraharahara." Gets the breath out, good strong "h" noise, and actually helps me visualize the hara where all this breath is supposed to be coming from!

[Matthew Lagden]

I take your point about betraying intentions, but somehow i don't get the feeling there is much fear in him to betray - unlike in me! Like you say, i think he is a natural.

With regard to your point about calling your strike (Men, Kote etc) - the other week our Sensei said that in his opinion you should call it in a Shiai, because even if the Shinpan couldn't quite see if you made your cut correctly or not, he might give you the Ippon anyway because the whole package seemed to be there, if you see what I mean!

[Jklak]

I hear one girl use this kind of kiai in once.

Quite high and deep kiai, which sounds: Täiiiiiiiii...

Word täi means lice in Finnish so people who don't understand Finnish (most of the people) misses the hidden message. :p

[Steve]

Glad you like my kiai there Kendo_Chick! I take pride in it being shrill and painful!

;-)

[Confound]

AMEN! I was wondering how long it would be before someone else noticed that it's KendoU not kendo... the 'u' is necessary, folks. it's du rigeur, very stylish, you know.

(sorry, this is late i know, but i was vacationing.)

c

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Confound
AMEN! I was wondering how long it would be before someone else noticed that it's KendoU not kendo... the 'u' is necessary, folks. it's du rigeur, very stylish, you know.

(sorry, this is late i know, but i was vacationing.)

c

Is this one of those 'aitch' not 'haitch' things?
Is there some sort of underground movement to remove the 'U' from all written instances of kendoU? (If so, it's been pretty successful).
What about if you put the straight-line thingy over the 'o'?
(dunno the ascii for this character, sorry).
Thanks for the romaji lesson tho. v. helpful :rolleyes:
Hope you had a good vacation.

Ares2907

[David J]

Originally posted by Ares2907
What about if you put the straight-line thingy over the 'o'?
(dunno the ascii for this character, sorry).


You mean like this: Kendõ

(Its Alt0245 if anyone can be bothered :D)

<rei>

Dave

[Jklak]

Originally posted by David J
You mean like this: Kendõ
(Its Alt0245 if anyone can be bothered :D)
<rei>

Dave
Hei Dave!

Still it stays on a little dimly to me. So is õ for Kendõ like diphthong "ou" ? In Finnish language we have a lot of diphthongs, like: ae, ai, ao, au, ay, aä, aö, ia, ie, etc etc…. So it seems like a similar thing?

[AlexM]

An ex-member of our dojo used to have an unusual kiai (once you listened to it long enough). He seemed to be srceeming "Chips Ahoy!" (yes I realize that it's tough to imagine and you really had to want to hear it). He also had the "laughing syndrome": whereas it souns as if your opponent is actually laughing at you when doing kiai.
I've heard people who sound like they're barking (try saying "Miaou" as a reply).
Although I didn't witness it myself someone in Toronto apparently sounds like their screaming MARIA!
Maybe I'm just listening to kiai a little too intently.

[Ares2907]

There was a guy I saw at a kendo seminar years ago who used to kiai screaming lines from basho haiku.
Nutjob.

[Confound]

Ares, that's hilarious! what a weirdo.

[Ronin2167]

I went to my first kendo class...only as an observer...and the Kiai is the first thing I noticed. Now I have studied a bit of Judo, a bit of Tae Kwon Do, a bit of Ishyn Ryu Karate....and even a bit of Brazillian Ju Jutsu...until I finally settled with Aikido....I have never berfore in all of my brushes with other martial arts have I heard so much Kiai....it was almost scary at times....and at times it was even annoying. I asked the Sensei about it after the class since I am interested in starting....and what he said was that it is a requirement.....to show your budo spirit......My understanding is that you get graded on your Kiai when you rank test?

I am not sure if I could go a whole class without getting hoarse or laughing.


But I did however enjoy watching....I wanted to get out there and get hit in the head numerous times...just so I could say I study a sword art.


Peace and Joy

[kendokamax]

hey....

If you want to try kendo try it, do it whatever!, don't waste too much time analysing it.

Doing kiai looks dumb but it's so relaxing! :)


"But I did however enjoy watching....I wanted to get out there and get hit in the head numerous times...just so I could say I study a sword art."

...no comments..

[Jklak]

I have found that obi-belt helps me to keep long and powerful kiai. Perhaps it give’s some counterpressure to midriff muscle. So it is lightly to control own kiai oneself? What kind of experience you have obi-belt and kiai?

yours jklak

[saki_wooah]

I tried to practise some flute (i had courses a long time ago and i do that in my tiny spare time) before kendo, and that practice, i did a very weird kiai during shiai... it sounded like " IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIH". Something like a 10 tons mouse. lol... I have heard many kiai from my collegues and i''m so impressed by one of the girl... woaaa she has a kiai like " IIIOP" going from up to down. Mine is "TAIIIIII" starting down to up... So many great kiai to hear! Hmm. The point of my message is that I think that if you practise your respiration properly, you can do a longer shiai...

[gill]

I've been told my kiai hits a pitch that reverbarates round my opponents head. :cross_eye

The down side to this (at least from my point of view- others may disagree.....) is that I tend to loose my voice - but that then makes me kiai from my hara

[sjp]

I've been told my kiai hits a pitch that reverbarates round my opponents head.


It certainly does ... and you cant sing either

[saki_wooah]

woah... I liked my kiai from friday... it was nothing better to break kendokamax's ear... lol hehehe, i'll try to make it higher and louder (if possible) it looked like a whistle but a bit higher.

[KhawMengLee]

bring one of those horn blowers that ppl use at sports matches.

[gill]

Originally posted by sjp


It certainly does ... and you cant sing either

Steve, be assured you will be on the receiving end of the most painful pitch next time we meet :eek:

...... and I can sing - just not in tune!!!! :wink:

[S. Takamori]

Maybe an interesting item regarding "kiai" is my teachers' explanation about the three "levels" in kiai...

1st: Haruki (when at the beginning stage, people produce much loud voice)

2nd: Sumuki ( later, when people are more involved, looks like flat water on a lake, but inside the power remains strong)

3rd: Saeruki (inner kiai whithout production of sound. This is Tatsujin or Meijin level (Musashi for example)

[KATSUJIN]

Dr Evil....u from singapore??? can u tell me ur name please??? maybe i know u....

[2muchryt]

the most interesting kiai i have ever heard was from 2 high ranking sensei from japan. i cant remember their names, but perhaps i could inquire.
anyway, there were some nito guys that lined up with them and they turned
them awayand would not practice with them .
after keiko they explained their position as seeing what is now
"modern nito" has been historically being taught as a way to fight with a
katana with only one hand. as in the case of riding a horse and using one
hand to hold the reins, or if one of your arms was injured.
and that it was not the nito style of mushashi.
then they went on to say that in addition to being high ranking kendo
sensei, they were also practioners of a classical kenjitsu ryu that included
the teaching of the actual ni ten ichi ryu of miyamoto musashi.
they then announced that for the "sake of the truth of history" (or something)
they would perform the rarely seen kata of the ni ten ichi ryu of miyamoto musashi so that we would learn the difference between "modern nito"
and the authentic nito ryu (or somthing like that).
all i remember was that they had different types of bokken, very thin,
they used only the weight of the sword to cut (no force from the arm), and
that the kiai was the strangest sound i ever heard in my life. after they
explained about the bokken, the use of only the weight the
razor sharp katana being sufficient to cut, mame, kill, etc.
and that the kiai took decades to master.
the only way i can describe it is kind of haunting and ghost like.
(i hope i can sleep tonight)

[munenmuso]

Welcome to the Twilight Zone.<tininin-tininin-tininin-tin>.:D

[Shiro]

I went to a taikai yesterday and there was a guy who just kept repeating "" the whole shiai. He wasn't really shouting it, it was like he was saying it, weird..... :)

[Shiro]

I went to a taikai yesterday and there was a guy who just kept repeating "" the whole shiai. He wasn't really shouting it, it was like he was saying it, weird..... :)

The sound I meant was "nuuuuuuts", but more like a "ö" in german or a "eu" in dutch or french ;)

[Eiliries]

A couple of the guys at my dojo were teasing one of my instructors, because they claimed his kiai sounded like a 10-year old girl, he replied that this was on purpose, because he wanted to be original (obvious lie).

[Danny Boy]

A couple of the guys at my dojo were teasing one of my instructors, because they claimed his kiai sounded like a 10-year old girl, he replied that this was on purpose, because he wanted to be original (obvious lie).


I heard a funny story about one of the older guys in our club (who left before i joined).
At one of Mumeishi 3's competitions he was fighting some small japanese chick. He got so pissed off with fighting her, that he started shouting weird stuff like : banana, chicken, sandwich etc as his kiai. It really turned a few (understatment) of the heads. Dont know if it worked for him though.

[Anjin-san]

He got so pissed off with fighting her, that he started shouting weird stuff like : banana, chicken, sandwich etc as his kiai.
Classic... I wish I'd been there.

Couple of my non-kendo friends are trying to get me to scream hadoken or shoryuken for my kiai, us all being street fighter fans. I tried but it just doesn't work as well as good old "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

[Eiliries]

A couple of the guys at my dojo were teasing one of my instructors, because they claimed his kiai sounded like a 10-year old girl, he replied that this was on purpose, because he wanted to be original (obvious lie).
I would like to apologize, this was not meant as an insult.

[nollaig]

Just after fighting a Swiss dude in the Europeans who said the word
"Urup"
it was a very weird noise!

And I promise I won't say a word about bad ref's decisions!!!!!

'cause that debate has been worn out

[Stimpson J. Cat]

There's a guy at our dojo that goes something like "Hassayyyyy!" - I thought this was his particular thing, until I heard someone at another dojo do it too. Is it an established (Karate?) thing or something?

<rei>

Dave
I have heard somebody do something similar and wondered if it meant something, it sounded like he was saying a word. Myself, mine is getting to be pretty much mono-syllabic grunts, caveman style.