Pushing in kendo?

[Usagi San]

Now, THAT'S pushing.
Just 7 seconds after the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5sNDGVZ4w&feature=channel_page

[MAZ77]

Now, THAT'S pushing.
Just 7 seconds after the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5sNDGVZ4w&feature=channel_page

That looked like tai atari to me.

[D'Artagnan]

Yeah that's taiatari

[Trent]

That is a ridiculously strong taiatari. I have never seen anything like it. He pushed his opponent over and out of the ring. Wow

[Usagi San]

Taiatari?... ok, call it what you want, but it looks more like sumo to me :D

[Paburo]

i think this is legal taiatari though... its obvious the guy on the left didnt mean to push him out of bounds that violently and was also surprised and concerned by the lack of balance from the guy on the right.

incidentally looks like white was more interested in bobbing his head and dodging cuts than maintaining a proper, strong posture....

[Toecutter]

I guess that's the reason they stopped doing kendo on raised platforms.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Catch a guy off-guard, he's going to end up on his butt. Nothing wrong with a clean hard taiatari.

[Chaby]

Well, pushing, taiatari or just knocking down happens quite often:
Here is one vid. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZIQuElI9Sg)

You can see quite few of them in the second half of the video.
The kids are awesome too in the beginning of the same.
Just, don't mind the cheesy music.

There seems to be some gray area around it.
On one seminar a nanadan sensei told us that pushing out of the shia-jo is a hansoku unless there was an attempt of a strike right after it.
Taiatari should be always followed by a strike.
So says the book.
Watching quite some number of videos from A.J.K.C. and similar events, this is not the case.

[Neil Gendzwill]

On one seminar a nanadan sensei told us that pushing out of the shia-jo is a hansoku unless there was an attempt of a strike right after it.Here's the criteria I got from 3 separate IKF-certified referees:

1. If someone goes out as a result of an attack followed up by taiatari, hansoku is given to the person who goes out.
2. If someone goes out as a result of a shove or taiatari independent of an attack, hansoku might be given to the attacker if the following criterion are met:
a) defender is aware of the danger and is actively defending
b) defender is in a position to defend
Case A means that if the defender easily goes back or appears to be not considering the boundary in his defence (ie isn't aware of where he is) then he gets the hansoku
Case B means that if the defender is already out of position due to a previous taiatari or some other action, the attacker can bounce him out and the defender is penalized. You often see where the attack/taiatari leaves the defender teetering on the edge, and then the attacker gives one more push to give the defender the penalty.

The reality is that the attacker is almost never penalized. The morale of the story is - know where you are! Losing by jogai sucks.

[jjcruiser]

This issue was debated in another interesting thread (which I'm too lazy to look up right now) fairly extensively. I'm too inexperienced to say what something is or isn't but I'd never seen anything like that first taiatari. In fact, the whole match looked much more physical and quickly-aggressive than more recent highlights of tournaments that I'm used to seeing. Was that more common back in the day?

[Edit: I started replying before I saw Neil's thorough description. I don't remember but that may have been the substance/result of the other thread's discussion.]

[MAZ77]

This issue was debated in another interesting thread (which I'm too lazy to look up right now) fairly extensively. I'm too inexperienced to say what something is or isn't but I'd never seen anything like that first taiatari. In fact, the whole match looked much more physical and quickly-aggressive than more recent highlights of tournaments that I'm used to seeing. Was that more common back in the day?

[Edit: I started replying before I saw Neil's thorough description. I don't remember but that may have been the substance/result of the other thread's discussion.]

I couldnt say or comment on if kendo was rougher back in the day, but tai atari was something that was practiced quite a bit. IF either of my two OLD SCHOOL sensei do tai atari to me, its just freaking strong, and whether i am defending or not, i go flying. And mind you, they are NOT pushing or sticking any extra effort other than the initial contact. I guess there is something to be said for doing it right. Lord knows i cannot even move a small child.

[Chaby]

Here's the criteria I got from 3 separate IKF-certified referees:

1. If someone goes out as a result of an attack followed up by taiatari, hansoku is given to the person who goes out.
2. If someone goes out as a result of a shove or taiatari independent of an attack, hansoku might be given to the attacker if the following criterion are met:
a) defender is aware of the danger and is actively defending
b) defender is in a position to defend
Case A means that if the defender easily goes back or appears to be not considering the boundary in his defence (ie isn't aware of where he is) then he gets the hansoku
Case B means that if the defender is already out of position due to a previous taiatari or some other action, the attacker can bounce him out and the defender is penalized. You often see where the attack/taiatari leaves the defender teetering on the edge, and then the attacker gives one more push to give the defender the penalty.

The reality is that the attacker is almost never penalized. The morale of the story is - know where you are! Losing by jogai sucks.

Thank you for the clarification.
In general, our sensei is against pushing the aite around in the shiai-jo.
So we don't do that.
Our sensei is saying to us that it's a waste of energy.
We should build up an ippon with technique not sheer force.
We train taiatari as shinsa requirements and basic waza.
Sensei is very strict about doing "beautiful kendo", and we are respecting the shinai as a sword, not a bamboo stick.


..and such, while holding a live blade in my hands, I'm wondering what fool would run to push me.
:D

However, watching High school championships, you van see very often some brutal pushings and taiataris.

[NigelSponge]

i'm not saying its not taiatari in the video, but to me it looks as if, although he finishes the push with his arms, but it kinda looks like he lead in with his shoulder.
Personally i thought it was awesome lol, but just putting in my 2¢

[Neil Gendzwill]

In general, our sensei is against pushing the aite around in the shiai-jo.As am I, and I have had some words with club members who have gotten too bull-ish in shiai. OTOH I see nothing wrong with using a good shot to open up your opponent - it's just one of the tools in your kit.

In any case you should be aware of the rules and how they are commonly interpreted because you may well be on the receiving end of someone who is determined to score points off jogai.

[Chaby]

In any case you should be aware of the rules and how they are commonly interpreted because you may well be on the receiving end of someone who is determined to score points off jogai.

Most certainly, thank you once again.

[Alex_McGrady]

OTOH I see nothing wrong with using a good shot to open up your opponent - it's just one of the tools in your kit.

In any case you should be aware of the rules and how they are commonly interpreted because you may well be on the receiving end of someone who is determined to score points off jogai.

Yep, I completely agree with this. Nothing like good ol` North American win-win kendo where you resort to brute force or a kick to the jimmi to get the upperhand to win. The focus is winning of course. Nice one. The mentality that "I HAVE TO BE THE STRONGEST..I MUST WIN..I HAVE LITTLE SKILL SO I WILL SHOVE THIS GUY AROUND WITH MY ARM STRENGTH". These so called "rules" are always pushed to the limit.

I saw a shiai once in the US where a guy dropped his shinai and went on to punch his opponent in the side of the men. As you mentioned "that the attacker is almost never penalized", and neither was he. Why should we, after all he was trying to win. So what are the limits exactly? Nevermind, I think I remember one of the upper sensei in the North American area say that a kendo shiai "is like a western gun fight; anything goes".

So Chaby, stay with your current sensei as long as you can and absorb as much of his "beautiful kendo" as you can learn. You will enjoy it much more.

Yehaah Ya'all,

Alex M

[rainmaker]

It doesn't matter what you think. It is very clean taiatari after Kote.



Taiatari?... ok, call it what you want, but it looks more like sumo to me :D

[bravo22]

Does anyone else find getting taiatarid into a wall is much easier than getting it in the middle of the floor?

I've always found I can simply bounce off the wall and keep trying to hit my opponent.

[atgm]

But if the wall is out of bounds, which it should be, then you're penalized for touching it anyway, so you might as well have just fallen to the floor...

[Usagi San]

It doesn't matter what you think. It is very clean taiatari after Kote.

Jesus!!! Ok, ok, I confess: I KNOW it's taiatari.
Everybody keeps telling me it's a clean taiatari. Of course, it's taiatari, I just put it here because I found it amusing/unusual/funny (pick one)... that's all.

[Atonito]

It looks to me as a combination of very good taiatari technique by the giver and poor technique and balance by the reciever and the result is there for everyone to see.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Nothing like good ol` North American win-win kendo where you resort to brute force or a kick to the jimmi to get the upperhand to win. The focus is winning of course. You think the focus on winning is not there in Japanese competitive kendo? That they don't play to the rules?

North American kendo, more so than many other places, is hugely influenced by Japanese kendo. The majority of our top instructors are immigrants from Japan, our best players routinely train in Japan. If you don't care for people using taiatari as a tournament tactic, just say so - it needn't be about North Americans.

[Abramo]

First of all, I do agree the receiver/faller in that video was to blame for having poor posture and not fighting back. I also see what Neil is saying and there's no way to disagree, because it's true. But I think it's another matter.

Here's what I've been thinking, and it concerns only the quality of the taiatari itself:

The guy clearly pushed with his *arms* with quite a bit of strength. Maybe the rest of it was good and maybe it could be considered a fine "shiai taiatari" but:

- If I do taiatari like that my sensei will yell at me;
- If we're training taiatari specifically and I do it like that I'd have to do it again and correct it;
- If a sensei is giving a verbal explanation on taiatari it wouldn't sound like that one in the vid;
- If sensei demonstrates what he explained it wouldn't look like that either.

Has anyone been taught to do taiatari just like that? Is that a *good*, textbook, I'd-teach-it-to-my-students taiatari, its "shiai effectiveness" notwithstanding?

[JByrd]

Some people watch auto racing for the spectacle of the crashes, rather than the skillful, controlled, driving. The first ten seconds of that match was spectacular, but it reminded me more of a crash than good driving. :ermm:

[H.Sandsleth]

The guy clearly pushed with his *arms* with quite a bit of strength. Maybe the rest of it was good and maybe it could be considered a fine "shiai taiatari" but:

- If I do taiatari like that my sensei will yell at me;
- If we're training taiatari specifically and I do it like that I'd have to do it again and correct it;
- If a sensei is giving a verbal explanation on taiatari it wouldn't sound like that one in the vid;
- If sensei demonstrates what he explained it wouldn't look like that either.

It is difficult to see clearly what is going on, but it looks to me that he uses his hips and that his hands are down at the moment of impact. You can also see from where his feet is placed that he can use his hip if he want to, strong wide stance with the front foot well in.

[MAZ77]

First of all, I do agree the receiver/faller in that video was to blame for having poor posture and not fighting back. I also see what Neil is saying and there's no way to disagree, because it's true. But I think it's another matter.

Here's what I've been thinking, and it concerns only the quality of the taiatari itself:

The guy clearly pushed with his *arms* with quite a bit of strength. Maybe the rest of it was good and maybe it could be considered a fine "shiai taiatari" but:

- If I do taiatari like that my sensei will yell at me;
- If we're training taiatari specifically and I do it like that I'd have to do it again and correct it;
- If a sensei is giving a verbal explanation on taiatari it wouldn't sound like that one in the vid;
- If sensei demonstrates what he explained it wouldn't look like that either.

Has anyone been taught to do taiatari just like that? Is that a *good*, textbook, I'd-teach-it-to-my-students taiatari, its "shiai effectiveness" notwithstanding?

His arms alone, even if he pushed as hard as he can, will not force that reaction, nor have much of an affect on the taiatari. We have all seen hand tai atari's and they rarely accomplish anything but punching the opponent in the face/chest.

To me, there was nothing wrong with that tai atari. Would i describe it as textbook? I dont know, why dont you tell me what you think that is? I would say that tai atari was spot on and looks similar to what i have been shown by my sensei.

I equate the matter of tai atari to that of tsuki, some people like it, some people dont.

[Alex_McGrady]

You think the focus on winning is not there in Japanese competitive kendo? That they don't play to the rules?

North American kendo, more so than many other places, is hugely influenced by Japanese kendo. The majority of our top instructors are immigrants from Japan, our best players routinely train in Japan. If you don't care for people using taiatari as a tournament tactic, just say so - it needn't be about North Americans.

Indeed, I know that Kendo in Japan is competitive. I have seen some seriously rough action before. To answer your question, I think kendo in Japan is played within the rules... not by the rules. It is a different way of thinking. They do not try to bend the rules, they just play kendo. I don't think the normal question during a match is "is that legal?". One thing that I have seen in Japanese kendo is no matter how rough it may get, there is something that I have not seem much North American kendo; simple manners. What the heck happened to manners? winning>anything else.

It is true that North American kendo is hugely influenced by Japanese kendo... all kendo is. When you take the culture and etiquette out (or neglect to put them in) the art becomes a sport without any other meaning but to win. It is just a cultural concept that in North America we have to win at all costs... kendo is not all about winning, its about performing the best techniques and achieving your personal best. 正しく打つ Listen to what many of the Japanese judo players said after their matches in the Olympics. It's pretty much what I am getting at; art gone...questionable techniques...must win.

I could care less about people using taiatari as a tournament tactic. You can shoot the dude as far as I am concerned. I just get tired of hearing people describe questionable actions in kendo as "legal", and when someone like Chaby talked about his sensei teaching "beautiful" kendo, we all roll our eyes and think in our heads, "what is that crap".

I limit myself to North America because I have had the privilege to play kendo in different countries. The respect and manners that I have encountered during my many visits (excluding most of North America) has been inspiring. (A shout out to you all) If anyone ever has such a chance to just back your bogu as you travel around the world, the experience will be well worth the burden of lugging it around.

[The great I AM]

The guy clearly pushed with his *arms* with quite a bit of strength.
Actually he clearly put pretty much everything above his hips into it. Really, just watch it again and you can honestly see him lean forward in to it.

Maybe the rest of it was good and maybe it could be considered a fine "shiai taiatari" but:

- If I do taiatari like that my sensei will yell at me;
- If we're training taiatari specifically and I do it like that I'd have to do it again and correct it;
- If a sensei is giving a verbal explanation on taiatari it wouldn't sound like that one in the vid;
- If sensei demonstrates what he explained it wouldn't look like that either.

Has anyone been taught to do taiatari just like that? Is that a *good*, textbook, I'd-teach-it-to-my-students taiatari, its "shiai effectiveness" notwithstanding?There is no such thing as shiai taiatari. And is a lot of stuff that happens in the heat of a shiai textbook-kendo? Hardly. And that wasn't kihon geiko either, it was a spur of the moment action. I've seen people tsukied when they were on their knees after falling over. That's not how we teach tsuki but I doubt he got balled out by his sensei for it. There was no hansoku.

Have you ever practised with a teacher with a mean streak who might punish you hard with some mukaezuki? Like it or not it happens, is not accepted in kendo and is done by some people with truly great kendo. Different? Mukaezuki is frowned upon way more than pushing someone in shiai but still happens.

[H.Sandsleth]

Actually he clearly put pretty much everything above his hips into it. Really, just watch it again and you can honestly see him lean forward in to it.
I do see his hips moving forward before the hands go out..but then my eyesight is not that good...

[Abramo]

Actually he clearly put pretty much everything above his hips into it. Really, just watch it again and you can honestly see him lean forward in to it.

Yes, I actually noticed he even pushes with his shoulder upwards. It sure was a very "spur of the moment action" but, in any case, it looks clear to me that the answer to the OP's question, namely, "is this taiatari" is *no*. It's just a thing that happened in shiai. It's certainly not taiatari, whatever it is.

The way I understand it, taitari is a body clash with the force concentrated on the hips with no strong arm movement (specially no active pushing) and no pushing with the upper torso. Needless to say one shouldn't strike with one's shoulder...

[LowFatMat]

Add my vote to the taitaris' scoresheet.
Looks to me like a strong taitari, coming in low and knocking the guy up and out - good action and one that has been mentioned by my sensei.

If you pause it at the right moment, you can see the impact is from the hips.

[The great I AM]

StuffWhat I'm trying to say is that what goes on in practicality is often not what goes on kihon geiko or "best practise".