"Converting" People

[Anime12478]

No, this isn't a religious thread...

I was reading the Myo Sim Kendo thread while at work and it kinda got me thinking about the things we do to convince others that there is a real kendo out there.

The situation usually goes as follows:


A fellow KWFer finds some video of someone doing what they call "Kendo"
Everyone heckles the video and the people in it
Somehow, the person on the video catches wind that the video is on here and comes to the forum, signs up and gives us some sort of explanation about them doing the real thing and whatnot
Some heckle the person even more while others try to help this person by looking for dojos that may be in their area, whether or not it was warranted

The optimal situation is that the person finds out that what they are doing is fake, and then converts over to the light side and does the real Kendo for life. Of course, things don't really work that way so we are left angering the person with our various modes of personal advances.

What I would like to ask is, do you think that we are doing enough out there to show that Kendo is out there without it being a detriment to the overall perception of our character? Do you think that there is anything that we could do better to make sure that information is readily available on the interwebs and elsewhere? And, in the spirit of Kendo, how do you think we could improve on things to spread Kendo and have people more aware of the "fakes" out there.

Of course, this thread also applies to Iaido, Jodo or whatever JSA that I haven't listed.

[Abramo]

As far as people's characters are concerned, it's a lost cause.

As to Kendo, I think there's plenty of information available in English describing in every degree of detail what Kendo is really about. You only need to add to this "Look for a dojo with official affiliation to the following governing bodies" and that's it. It's apparently not that simple with koryu, but it should work for Kendo and a lot of mainstream Iai too.

This very forum is a way to "help" people and spreading information is the best way to go. I don't think there's need of another website or campaign or something.

Hope this is a proper answer to your questions.

[xvikingx]

Well just browse the multimedia and flames section. There is practically a new thread everyday with a youtube link and some BS along the lines of "look at this idiot". Some KWFers even go as far as to harrass these people who post videos with comments on youtube (or whatever), and like you said even bring them here. Not exactly a testiment for kendo being a character builder, or as many here like to say a way to improve ones self. Like Abramo wrote this is probably a lost cause.
There is plenty of information out there for anyone with who can type k-e-n-d-o into google. If certain people can't be bothered to do even a little research before committing to some thing then kendo is probably not for them. Also sometimes the real deal simply isn't what people are looking for.

[Kenzan]

The optimal situation is that the person finds out that what they are doing is fake, and then converts over to the light side and does the real Kendo for life. Of course, things don't really work that way so we are left angering the

The optimal situation is that no one gives a Rat's ass what anyone else does, and people just focus on their own Kendo.

[hyuna]

The way to not to give a bad impression of kendo is not to do obnoxious things. I think this is also the way to "spread kendo."

Who wants to practice in a place where they will be judged, teased, bullied, and belittled? I think many people would prefer a "fake" dojo that has people that are friendly and open-minded to a "real" dojo that is arrogant and obnoxious. Of course not everyone in the dojo are like those hecklers, but the visitor only knows what they see. If 9/10 replies in the thread or comments on their video is from kendo players being rude, then of course they will come to think that kendo teaches rudeness, and that is what they will tell their friends, and what their friends will tell their friends. If 9/10 comments are friendly and humble, then kendo players will be known to be friendly and humble people, and they will be able to approach kendo as open-minded friends.

[Anonymous]

I generally start out nice. And then when it gets retarded I start trying to make the ninjer look retarded as much as possible until he deletes his youtube/myspace account.

[Jung_Yul]

The optimal situation is that no one gives a Rat's ass what anyone else does, and people just focus on their own Kendo.

Personally I agree with this with one exception: When these YouTube ninjas start calling what they do "Kendo," "Kenjutsu," etc. (as almost all of them inevitably do), that has the potential to cause problems for all of us. One need only recall how close our British friends came to having laws passed that would prohibit one from owning a sword in the U.K. to realize the level of damage some of these ninjers can cause; particularly with the severely one-sided media we have nowadays. (heck, I see watching the news as just another form of "feeding trolls" anymore.) Now don't get me wrong. If some group of (possibly) socially maladjusted, goth-wannabe, anime-obsessed fools want to swing bokuto, shinai, or even, god help them, wall-hangers at each other in their back yards in preparation of all those routine and imminent pirate and ninja attacks... well, I'm a firm believer in Darwin's theory of natural selection. What I'm against is when they slap a [fill in a legitimate Japanese Sword Art or any-other-martial-art-name for that matter here] label on it, and try to pass it off as "the real deal." If they want to call what they do "My own imaginary Kill Bill, Chop Sockey style," then by all means, let them do whatever they want, film it, and put it on YouTube under THAT title. I'll be glad to pop open a beer and watch the hilarity ensue, but as long as they are packaging it as something it isn't, they're lying in order to give themselves some notion of legitimacy, and in so doing, they are threatening our ability to continue to practice something we all love given the ridiculously charged political atmosphere we find ourselves in these days.

Short version: you can wrap garbage in silk, but it's still just garbage wrapped in silk.

[Atonito]

The optimal situation is that no one gives a Rat's ass what anyone else does, and people just focus on their own Kendo.

Well said!!!

[Paburo]

i just did a quick search on google from my ip.

from the 10 top searches, 9 were from recognised dojos and reliable information on "real" kendo. the wiki entry came on top. the one non-kendo result turned out to be a link to a company named "kendosomething".

top searches on images and videos also showed "real" kendo on top.

so, i think the good, real, reliable info is out there readily availiable. if some ppl dont have enough brain cells to look it up or see the difference then it is a lost cause indeed.


Also sometimes the real deal simply isn't what people are looking for.
totally agree with this too.

[Hank]

I don't think making fun of the youtube videos has any ken(iai)do-related worth. I usually don't click on them. If I want to look at bad kendo and iai, I'll just go to class and watch the newbies. (Just kidding, doshikai newbies. Mainly.)

Trying to "convert" people is just an excercise in ego boosting. If people are serious, they'll find a dojo. Helping the people who ask for help is more productive than "helping" those who don't. All the venom and snobbery just makes the whole forum look bad.

[Toecutter]

If I want to look at bad kendo and iai, I'll just go to class and watch the newbies. (Just kidding, doshikai newbies. Mainly.)

What are you trying to say here?

[turboyoshi]

What I would like to ask is, do you think that we are doing enough out there to show that Kendo is out there without it being a detriment to the overall perception of our character?

Personally, I think it's a lost cause. Advice given when it isn't requested is usually just an exercise in mental masturbation.

The information is out there and relatively easy to get to, if people care enough to look for it. I believe that's enough.

If you are being given the chance to advise someone, there's a very simple rule of thumb to follow: don't be a jerk. :) It's really just that simple.

Don't use sarcasm or other forms of ridicule, just present your information with the attitude of "here it is, do what you want with it." If they resist, don't attack, don't argue, just wash your hands of the matter and move on. Like xvikingx says, they probably didn't want the real thing anyway.

[H.Sandsleth]

The ninjers, anime people, japanophiles, goths etc on youtube swirling their swords aren't that different from some of the people that actually do kendo...so why attack your potential beginners?

[hyuna]

What I'm against is when they slap a [fill in a legitimate Japanese Sword Art or any-other-martial-art-name for that matter here] label on it, and try to pass it off as "the real deal."
This only happens because kendo is still relatively obscure. If I post a video of someone holding a football in their hand and running headfirst into a brick wall and call it "Football SCORE!", it doesn't fool anyone (though it could still be a pretty awesome video, if you're into that kind of thing). That is, nobody is going to try to put a ban on football because that video convinced them that it involves running into brick walls.

[Toecutter]

I know personally speaking often time when I'm viewing posted videos I don't know what I'm looking at especially with Iaido. I know there is a tendency to ridicule things we don't know or understand but I've seen more than one instance of someone posting a video that turned out to be a perfectly legitimate art. Not knowing that much about karate or other MAs didn't Bruce Lee invent a new style of karate or at least change some of the fundamentals of his own style? Not to say that most of these videos are in the same ranks of Bruce Lee but sometimes things aren't always what the look like. Except that video of kendo guys where one of them goes sliding across the floor to hit a kneeling do strike, that is just what it looks like.

[Anonymous]

Not knowing that much about karate or other MAs didn't Bruce Lee invent a new style of karate or at least change some of the fundamentals of his own style? .


He didn't make *anything* new. He basically regurgitated some ideas that have been around for thousands of years, and slapped a new name on it. JKD isn't a style either, its just the name of that philosophy and he himself said he regretted mentioning it because of all the retarded nuthuggers it would attract. The only thing he really did was make kung fu etc. more mainstream for people to bastardize.

[pgsmith]

Personally, I don't go for the whole "they're retarded and we're legitimate so let's make fun of them" sort of thing. I really agree with Kenzan that we should all focus on our own practice rather than trying to make ourselves feel better by denigrating others. However, if said nutters are going to come on-line and attempt to pass themselves off as legitimate and knowledgeable exponents of the Japanese sword arts, I have no qualms about doing my best to squash them as flat as possible. Sorta fun really! :)

[Kim Taylor]

Absolutely we can do more to popularize kendo and to bring in more students, potentially from the strange dark places being discussed here.

I've been doing this stuff for a very long time (since the early '80s) and I can tell you with some confidence that if you want to be respected in the minds of the public and the media, and you want to attract and convert students, you need to emphasize the positive and stay right away from denigrating those you think are "doing it wrong". Throwing mud only gets you muddy.

Here's some random ideas on bringing in members I wrote up recently.

* encourage all ranks above 4dan to go start a club
* encourage demonstrations at local malls, events, street fairs
* encourage small seminars and classes in other martial art clubs...
offer them
* encourage extra classes at different locations, these extra
locations often evolve into new clubs
* write and send out press releases from the national organization on every
event, and encourage local clubs to do the same
* encourage local clubs to get their club listed in local recreation
booklets, craigslist, kijiji etc.
* encourage local clubs to demonstrate in schools, or to offer
instruction in phys-ed classes
* produce a booklet or have a page on the website for ideas to and
from local clubs on how to promote themselves
* look for opportunities to be interviewed and shown on radio, TV
and in newspapers, these will come from the press releases but
never turn one down at any time
* advertise

Another thing that is very important is to direct students to other clubs whenever possible. If they're not in your area that's not a problem, if you are in the situation where you have extra students, ie a waiting list, it's also in your interest to send the extra students to other clubs, it's very rarely that they will hang around for 6 months to join your club, but they may transfer over to your club if you're very much better than the one you sent them to.

For any of us to benefit, we all need to benefit. Growth won't happen at a single club, it has to happen in the art as a whole.

Be positive, make it all grow and the deadwood will be consumed by the new forest that appears.

Any writers out there? Write articles for EJMAS.com and your local papers, just keep the information flowing. A customer must see an ad 7 times for it to register, a student will likely need 7 pieces of information on kendo or iaido in front of them before they "see" it.

Kim Taylor

[sirius1906]

If I post a video of someone holding a football in their hand and running headfirst into a brick wall and call it "Football SCORE!"

I'll look for you in the next Jackass movie. :D

[Bucho]

Shufukai did a demonstration at fenway park. The Associated Press put to an article about ninjas at fenway park which then showed up all over the place: http://futonreport.net/index.php/article/228fenway-park-is-ninja-guarded.php If even the press can't figure out whats up, maybe a little more advertising is a good idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THy5_fkH52I In this video is it the kids fault because they didn't do enough research? Their parents probably went around to all the mcdojos in the area and picked out the best one.

I fail to see how laughing at and bullying youtube posters does anybody any good, However polite well written posts questioning the legitimacy of some of the advertisement videos probably does encourage people to do their homework a little better and not get sucked into a scam.

[H.Sandsleth]

I agree with what Kim Taylor is saying.

People have a lot to choose from these days, and quite a few see themselves as paying customers, so imo you have to get out there, advertise and present yourself in a positive way.

[nodachi]

I find that when you actively go trying to convert people, you may get a little of their interest and they may visit a few times, but they don't last. It's when we show the existance of legitimate places to train and the seeds of curiosity naturally grow that people will actually join and stick with it.

I would like to think that people understand that an inordinate amount of flaming will go on in the internet. People looking for real training won't even read comments on youtube videos and focus more on actual dojo websites for concrete information. At least I would hope.

Our job is mainly to point out the existance of legitimate dojos and leave the rest to the people to come to us. It may be slow growth, but at least then we can control the quality of the teaching versus having an explosion of McDojos and then ruin Kendo when people can no longer easily search through the hundreds of fake dojos to find the few real ones.

[Kyung]

Yeah...it only irritates me when someone says that re-made/modified sword martial art is the original or traditional...because it's not.
Like Haedong kumdo, and the subject of this thread...I hate to admit it, but they were created to make $$$. But I guess in the end, it's what people enjoy that's the most important.

[MartialArtsGirl]

The ninjers, anime people, japanophiles, goths etc on youtube swirling their swords aren't that different from some of the people that actually do kendo...so why attack your potential beginners?


Uhm, I like anime and I suppose you could call me a japanophile, but I'm not stupid enough to swing sharp pieces of metal at other people... especially when I dont even know what I'm doing...