Should Japanese forever be the "language" of kendo?

[Koushinkuma]

Hi all,

I've been thinking about this lately. Should Japanese continue perpetually in the future to be the official, lingua franca of kendo? Now before the flames start, let me explain:

Seeing as a lot of sports (defined loosely, including many martial arts) that were once tied to a particular culture (ie baseball in the US, rugby in the UK, kung fu in China, even karate in Japan to some extent) now use the vernacular in their day to day operations wherever they are taught, why not kendo? I thought of this when I was sparring against a fellow American; English is the first language of both of us, yet he was talking to me throughout the match in Japanese. If I didn't understand Japanese at all, that would have been kind of strange.

All the techniques in kendo, even complex waza with multiple word names, are stated in Japanese. This differs from my earlier experience with karate and kung fu, where all the tecniques were spelled out in the local vernacular, in this case, English. For example, instead of a Chinese name for a spinning roundhouse kick, it was called just that. The only things that retained "asian" names were words that had already been adopted into English, like "kata," but it was used interchangeably with the English word, "forms."

I'm aware that in Japan, baseball has been adopted to Japanese, with at least Japanese pronunciations of the English words for "strike," "out," etc. Complex maneuvers like "slow balls" have, I believe, a Japanese language equivalent that is used instead of English.

So why not in kendo? Is it respect for the "mother language," insufficient international popularization, or something else? Does it differ sufficiently from a pure "sport" so that a different set of rules apply? Is it "so Japanese" that it would break down without linguistic sychronicity? It seems that with kendo's growing appeal that some "vernacularization" might make it easier to adopt in various places. Will kendoists one day "bow" to the "shrine" or "divinity" in their local language instead of rei to the kamiza? Will we "line up" instead of seditsu, and "meditate" instead of mokuzo? What do you think? Would this be a good idea?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You obviously were taking amurrican kurotty. Traditional karate uses Japanese terminology, as does judo. Think of it as technical terminology for martial arts. Complex techniques are named in a common language, so that all of us no matter where in the world we practice will understand what we mean. If all you ever learn is a vernacular translation, however will you conduct practice with people from France or Germany?

You're clearly a cup full kinda guy, based on this and the other thread.

[xvikingx]

Hi all,

I've been thinking about this lately. Should Japanese continue perpetually in the future to be the official, lingua franca of kendo?

To a certain point "Yes". To avoid confusion, waza names and such should remain the same but I think Japanese is used way too much outside of Asia. Counting, saying "hello"/"thankyou"/"goodbye", etc. should be done in your native tongue. I even question the point of katakana on zekken outside of Japan. [*Don't get started on the kanji issue please]

Same thing in Japan... I find it ridiculous when Japanese say things like "nai-su kacchi" (nice catch), or when dancers count "wa-n, tsu-, wa-n, tsu-" (1,2,1,2). People in my dojo say "faito-" (fight) all the time; I wish they would stop.

[JSchmidt]

Let's remove all loanwords from the last couple of centuries from the English language and see how much you got left:D

[Shazzanzzz]

i see your point, but, it's not that simple. It's not that easy to just translate something. Especially between asian and english languages, because it's so different, a lot of times, it's almost impossible to ranslate the meaning of a word without using a sentence or two. Like, zanshin, seme, ki, 不動心..... and sometimes still can't capture the full meaning of the words.


plus, it's not that hard anyways. Just treat them like new vocab words you need to learn. No one is asking you to learn japanese, just the terms. I mean, in basketball, you have to learn what a goaltending, travel, double dribble, etc. are too. And soccer, what offside is.... football what offside is, roughing the passer, passing interfence, etc.

[Koushinkuma]

Hi Neil,

One double decker cheeseburger, large chocolate frappe, hold the judgement calls! I would disagree that I'm "cup full" in this thread as my point is asking other people's thoughts, not trying to impose my viewpoint on anyone. Au contraire, he who questions not the Danes of old braves lazy complacency with his a'ready fill'd chalice. I haven't really made up my mind on this issue but would like to see if anyone else has thought about this at all, or has accepted Japanese as the "normal" kendo language.

I don't find the Japanese portion obstreperous, in fact I like using it, I'm just curious why, as he says above, we say "hello" and "goodbye" etc., in Japanese when in the dojo, and only in the dojo, like we are trying to be "mini Japanese" or something, rather than simply using the vernacular.

It's true that English over the past thou or so years has been made up by about 60% of loan words imposed over the old German root stock. The Japanese language seems to be a little bit more flexible than many other languages in absorbing and vernacularizing foreign words. I mean, what other language has 3 1/2 alphabet/writing systems, two of which were entirely taken from other cultures (China for kanji and the Phonecian alphabet from...the Phonecians? I mean from Europe :D ). But I diverge...

Oh, and as for my former experience, it was in an American dojo, in a small city in New Hampshire. Also I practiced in a dojo in metro Boston that used English for almost everything. So perhaps there are two schools of thought on this for karate depending on the dojo's location, sensei, etc.

[moocow65]

I personally believe that Kendo should be forever taught in Japanese. As my Kendo friend states, "Why should Kendo have to cater to us?" She is NOT Japanese, by the way. She has taken the time to learn Japanese so she could understand what our sensei says. She writes her kendo tests in Japanese only. No one is forcing you to do Kendo. It is a privilege to do Kendo, and because of that, one should take the time to learn at least the basic Japanese Kendo terms. And besides, some Japanese terms have a certain "flavor" that cannot be truly translated in any other language. So instead of "onegaishimasu" we're supposed to say "please let me have the favor of practicing with you??????" Yeah, Kendo can be considered a sport like baseball, but it's also budo, and this budo is unique to Japanese culture because along with it comes the ideas of bushido, reigi, and Japanese etiquette. I understand it may not make sense to some people who believe that Kendo should be taught in their own language, but again, Kendo should not cater to you. It is a privilege to do Kendo, and I believe learning these Japanese terms is the least we kenshi should do.

[Koushinkuma]

You obviously were taking amurrican kurotty. Traditional karate uses Japanese terminology, as does judo. Think of it as technical terminology for martial arts. Complex techniques are named in a common language, so that all of us no matter where in the world we practice will understand what we mean. If all you ever learn is a vernacular translation, however will you conduct practice with people from France or Germany?

You're clearly a cup full kinda guy, based on this and the other thread.

Oh, and it's not that likely that one would end up practicing with peeps from France or Deutschland or some other foreign country on a regular basis, but I'm sure that if I did they would at least have the decency to speak American :wink: .

But if one really had enough gumption and opportunity to go study kendo in Germany, I would imagine you would get familiar enough with it to know the local names of techniques. But in any case what I'm more interested in here are words like hello, bye, please, thanks, that are used all the time and that a traveler could reasonably be expected to learn.

Anyway--the argument could be made that greater ease practicing in your own dojo because you are using a language more familiar to you would outweight the drawbacks of not speaking French or German. I'm not making that argument, though.

[aru-ma]

I prefer having to use japanese for terms used in kendo for several reasons, first, I'm studying japanese so it helps me to remember several words, two when I go and train in other countries that doesn't speak english or japanese I know what I'm supposed to do eg. kirikaeshi, hayasuburi, etc.
like what was said before "why should kendo have to cater us?"

[Kirin]

Will we "line up" instead of seditsu, and "meditate" instead of mokuzo? What do you think? Would this be a good idea?

First of all, please know your terminology first.......

It is not 'seditsu' ---> seiretsu
It is not 'mokuzo'----> mokuso(u)

....if you knew proper kendo terms, you wouldn't be starting ignorant thread like this....... *sigh*

[JSchmidt]

Oh, and it's not that likely that one would end up practicing with peeps from France or Deutschland or some other foreign country on a regular basis, but I'm sure that if I did they would at least have the decency to speak American :wink: .

Well, some of us do practice in foreign countries fairly often and sometimes just for a weekend trip.
I'm sorry that you haven't had the opportunity to do so, as the whole issue would be obvious for you, if you had.

[dorkusxmaximus]

I already think our senseis are already accommodating us with instructions in English. Try attending a practice where the sensei mostly speaks in Japanese than English, or sometimes balances out the two. If you like kendo as much as you say you do, it doesn't really hurt to learn some Japanese terminology for kendo, right? Just consider it like learning chemistry words, or a new vocabulary word. Like Moocow says, a word loses its "flavor" when it's translated to another language.

[Mr.Tvola]

Yep, there should definitely be one "Kendo language". Kendo-kas from all the world should be able to understand each other. At least the names of postures, techniqes, numbers etc. And this language is (obviously) Japanese. As JSchmidt mentioned before, if you were participating in international seminars, you would see the point. I think it is quite cool, that Kendo is being practiced everywhere in the same way (with of course some minor differences - just compare it with some other MAs) and call it the same way, everyone does kiri-kaeshi or men-uchi (etc.) Don't you see the advantages?

[xvikingx]

I personally believe that Kendo should be forever taught in Japanese.... So instead of "onegaishimasu" we're supposed to say "please let me have the favor of practicing with you??????" ....but again, Kendo should not cater to you. It is a privilege to do Kendo, and I believe learning these Japanese terms is the least we kenshi should do.

You're right. I have had it with this sort of thing. From now on in Japan when people box, they now use "foot work" instead of ashisabaki. Also instead of "migi & hidatari", "right & left" will be mandatory.... and so on.. I mean it is the least they can do for being allowed to practice a fighting art from England.
-A little ridiculous don't you think?

I don't think he is saying we should chuck Japanese all together. I think the point is about the excessive amount of unecessary Japanese being used outside of Japan. I mean is it really necessary to have your name written in katakana on your zekken or to count to 10 in Japanese? I speak both English and Japanese so it is not really a "problem" for me, but it does seem a little silly. (Of course translating the names of waza and formalities would be stupid. I am not suggesting such a thing.) I don't think this is too outrageous. *I guess this is the part where you tell me I just don't get it right?

[Hyaku]

Seems to be that the whole points being missed.

You might just say a word in passable Japanese. But when you write it you have both onyomi and kunyomi forms of old kanji with deep meaning.

For example take the word keiko. It means to plant a seed. My Kendobu does use words like tureiningu (training) when they run and climb in the mornings as its associated with western like practice.

But if you really want to we can all start calling hakama "Wide blue baggypants" or something and the shinai "split bamboo staves". Quite funny if someone kiaied "Heeeeeeead"

Oh well I am just off down the road to the "sliced raw seafood on a rice cake" shop for a meal.

Ps XvikingX its hidari not hidatari

[Koushinkuma]

Seems to be that the whole points being missed.

You might just say a word in passable Japanese. But when you write it you have both onyomi and kunyomi forms of old kanji with deep meaning.

For example take the word keiko. It means to plant a seed. My Kendobu does use words like tureiningu (training) when they run and climb in the mornings as its associated with western like practice.

But if you really want to we can all start calling hakama "Wide blue baggypants" or something and the shinai "split bamboo staves". Quite funny if someone kiaied "Heeeeeeead"

Oh well I am just off down the road to the "sliced raw seafood on a rice cake" shop for a meal.

Ps XvikingX its hidari not hidatari

But how many people understand all those deep meanings of Japanese words? To advocate the devil's point of view, wouldn't people more greatly understand the the meaning of what they are saying if it was said in their native tongue? IMHO people tend to respond on a deeper level to things in a language in which they are fluent...that's why the Catholic Church decided to switch from a Latin mass to the vernacular back in the 50's, so people could understand.

On the other hand, I see the point of view advocating Japanese as the universal kendo language as being based on respect for the mother tongue of kendo, and perhaps, that of the sensei if he is Japanese.

[AlexM]

I don't have anything against the basic terms being in Japanese. Men-debana-kote just can't translate well. Plus, it is sort of like Latin in the Catholic church until recently: you could walk into any church (dojo in this case) and you get the same sermon (practice). The technique (and equipment names) should definately remain in Japanese. No problems there.

However, since I don't speak Japanese I would definately be put off by a Westerner trying to explain things to me in Japanese when we might both speak something I actually understand. Explaining something in Japanese doesn't make it more "authentic".

I admit to having a certain amount of bewilderment when I see two Westerners bantering to each other in (bad) Japanese in the hopes of seeming more authentic. I'm not Japanese, so why should I learn or talk with other non-Japanese in that language? It's just seems ridiculous really.

[Koushinkuma]

First of all, please know your terminology first.......

It is not 'seditsu' ---> seiretsu
It is not 'mokuzo'----> mokuso(u)

....if you knew proper kendo terms, you wouldn't be starting ignorant thread like this....... *sigh*

I do know proper kendo terms in a functional kind of way. As you well know, the romaji versions are just approximations based on pronunciation, which is why my wife can legally change her name from "Setsuko" to "Setsko" and say that the romaji approximation doesn't matter to her. This thread isn't all about me anyway, it is about what people think, but thanks for calling me ignorant (?)

[kendokamax]

I think it should stay the same as it is..These terms are jargons (spell?) anyway..

If you are walking on the street in Japan and you walk into someone (that doesnt do kendo) by accident on the street and say: " oh i'm sorry to have hit your kote" they will be asking to themselves what the hell you are talking about.

[Hyaku]

But how many people understand all those deep meanings of Japanese words?.

Well.............That's why we practice Kendo! Comes to mind. If your Sensei does not or cannot explain those things. It just shows how far we have to go to understand it.

There is far more to hitting people over the head with shinai (slatted bamboo stave). And ranting about the Dan grade process and "Getting nandan" is farce when you look at the knowledge you have to aquire here in Japan for such a level.

The guys are indeed doing a wonderful job on Kendo World. Doesnt this bring forth a slight idea of how deep this stuff can go when you look at their translations? The Budo seminars at Katsu-ura are also held to try and help Westerners have a better understanding.

In Japan we say Bunbu Ichi (Pen and sword in accord) We have to hand it to people like Alex and the team that do some of this work and Japanese that need a kick up the kyber to learn more Engurish to explain it to us.

I do a considerable amount of work on Japanese/ English and you just cant simplify some of these word with an equivelant English word.

Not to use words like "keiko" would lose its meaning forever. It means to plant a seed and if you think we should use English maybe that seed still has not germinated within you?

[xvikingx]

Seems to be that the whole points being missed.

Oh well I am just off down the road to the "sliced raw seafood on a rice cake" shop for a meal.

Ps XvikingX its hidari not hidatari

Seems like YOU are the one missing the point. Go back and read a few more times, maybe you'll get it.
Oh, and thank you for catching my typo. Maybe you would like to go back and proof read some of my other posts.

[Karaken]

I do know proper kendo terms in a functional kind of way. As you well know, the romaji versions are just approximations based on pronunciation, which is why my wife can legally change her name from "Setsuko" to "Setsko" and say that the romaji approximation doesn't matter to her. This thread isn't all about me anyway, it is about what people think, but thanks for calling me ignorant (?)

Yes, let's stop correcting this spelling thing - it's not real and noone's going to be graded on it - if it's close - then it's close enough.

Anyway, I think the idea of dumping Japanese from Kendo is premature. Japanese Government still is deeply involved in promotion of it's cuture thru Kendo and spends a lot of money in supporting it. Also, ( I don't want to rekindle Kendo vs. kumdo argument but if you visit any Kumdo Dojang ( vs. Dojo ), they all use pure Korean terminology for very different reason.

So, Kendo or Kumdo will continue to use Original Teminology until it makes to Olympics ( dare I say ). Depend on who brings Kendo to Olympics, the terminology questions will be decided and non-critical terminology will be replaced by local language ( like Hello, counting, thank you etc.. ) but there will remain many traditional dojos carrying on the tradition of old-ways.

In short, the sport has to be truly independant and international before it can evolve into its own way ( Liek some other examples given before ). Kendo, as of now, is too dependant on Japan and Japanese people ( for Senseis, Students and many other ways ) to start evolving into international being. Guess how many of us want to KEIKO with HACHIDAN SENSEI and how many HACHIDAN SENSEIS speak English ( or German or Spanish etc.. )


Center.

[Koushinkuma]

One thing that concerns me though is that using Japanese overly may, somewhat ironically, serve to exocitize kendo for people that don't know anything about it, thereby retarding its global acceptance and practice by making it seem less accessible. I mean, a lot of people seem to be intimidated just by the armor and stick swinging and thus do tae kwon do or something instead--take a look at the relative size of most college/university clubs in the US and you'll get the picture; our kendo club has about 7 regular members; I think tae kwon do has about 40; they barely advertise, and we do all the time. Add that to the seemingly "foreign" language of many dojos and for some it might seem like culture shock. Again, I'm not saying that it was this way for me personally, I loved learning the cultural stuff and language as well as kendo, but it was a very difficult few months of immersion at the beginning.

One thing my sensei said a lot was "kendo is very ordinary." Meaning that while non-kendoists may think that it is a very "exotic" looking way of "playing at being samurai," (and correct me if I'm wrong), but for many Japanese it is something rather everyday and "plain," like going running or to the gym. A lot of the formalities of the dojo (again correct me if I'm wrong) like bowing to teacher and friends, taking shoes off at the door, formally thanking people for instruction, as well as hierarchy (koahi/sempi/sensei as well as -kyu and -dan ranks) are already a part of Japanese culture that is familiar. I'm not saying that other cultures don't thank their teachers and have hierarchies. But some people could be scared off by kendo's seeming inaccessibility, further compounded by saying hello and goodbye and counting in a language they don't understand.

[xvikingx]

One thing that concerns me though is that using Japanese overly may, somewhat ironically, serve to exocitize kendo for people that don't know anything about it, thereby retarding its global acceptance and practice by making it seem less accessible.....

I have to disagree. I think it is this part that attracts people and when they find out that it is just kendo and not samurai showdown they quit. The only reason you don't get the big turn out is because the word "kendo" is not out there like "karate" "tae kwon do" "ninja" etc... If you talk about kendo most people will say "What's that?". But if you mention kung fu or karate people have some idea of what it is. There are past posts were some sensei have talked about loads of people taking up kendo after seeing movies like "Last Samurai".

[Kingofmyrrh]

I have to ask, merely because I haven`t heard it described in that way before, why does keiko mean `planting a seed`? Thanks.

[Hyaku]

Sorry I was rambling and should have been more precise. More precisely it means to preserve a crop The crops come from the seeds so I was just trying to say that we indeed have a long way to go in understanding. If we have not planted the seed first, how can we possibly practice and preserve the way as in keiko?

I tried but could not use kanji on the forum so I will try to explain.

The character of Kei is comprised of ka as in crops and ki as in preserve for a long time. To preserving crops we must measure them. Ko is ancient or old. So we must think, practice and emulate old skills.

In traveling with Japanese most are so intent on passing on a Japanese tradition they have no interest whatsoever in Western things. Sadly to say English is one of them. Also the Japanese idea of internationalism tends to be. 'This is Japan you should learn about it'. Going to other countries to show the Japanese way makes you "International" back here. Personaly I would have hoped that being international is going to other countries and exchanging cultures and languages. Or if you cant go try it in your own country.

I think the only way is for both sides to try and bridge that gap is to try and learn each others languages to see any relevant headway. And that swopping words is not the answer.

I try to throw in a few English words when I translate but it does not come over as well. Do you all really want someone to find some alternative to words like "Kakari Geiko". If someone shouted something in English it just wouldnt be a the same. As mentioned its the flavour that counts.

[Kirin]

I do know proper kendo terms in a functional kind of way. As you well know, the romaji versions are just approximations based on pronunciation, which is why my wife can legally change her name from "Setsuko" to "Setsko" and say that the romaji approximation doesn't matter to her. This thread isn't all about me anyway, it is about what people think, but thanks for calling me ignorant (?)

Well... if you say 'seiditsu'... no japanese would understand it.
since your wife is japanese... ask her !! lol
I am not talking about spelling... right pronounciation! Well...ok spelling too.
In any book or written material where they spell "seditsu' for 'seiretsu'? 'mokuzo' for 'mokusou'?

you are lucky to have japanese wife who can correct your WRONG pronunciations and spellings :P



ps. せつこ can be Setsuko or Setuko....not Setsko． Want your wife's name to be せっこ？

[KhawMengLee]

But how many people understand all those deep meanings of Japanese words? To advocate the devil's point of view, wouldn't people more greatly understand the the meaning of what they are saying if it was said in their native tongue? IMHO people tend to respond on a deeper level to things in a language in which they are fluent...that's why the Catholic Church decided to switch from a Latin mass to the vernacular back in the 50's, so people could understand.

On the other hand, I see the point of view advocating Japanese as the universal kendo language as being based on respect for the mother tongue of kendo, and perhaps, that of the sensei if he is Japanese.


As Moocow said, its a privelage to learn kendo because you are not only learning about a martial art but about a culture as well. Beginners in my dojo come in not knowing ichi from ni in japanese or anything about japanese culture but as they progress the terms and meanings come to light.

And we are learning more every day (Thanks Hyaku for the Keiko trans...hehe....very interesting).

Don't understand the words? Then ask...its that simple.

This "change the language" topic sounds too much like lazy fast food/TV dinner culture. Oh, we see a nice goal but don't want the hassle of walking the road to get to it.

Take a nice meal ie. making ramen from scratch, sure the preperation is messy and time consuming and of course, bloody hard...but that is part of the experience. And not only does it leave you with a nice meal(maybe after a few tries but initially a meal no less) but the knowledge gleaned from preperation(eg.how to make the stock etc etc).


One thing that concerns me though is that using Japanese overly may, somewhat ironically, serve to exocitize kendo for people that don't know anything about it, thereby retarding its global acceptance and practice by making it seem less accessible.

Amen for that. Helps weed out the wheat from the chaf.


The only reason you don't get the big turn out is because the word "kendo" is not out there like "karate" "tae kwon do" "ninja" etc... If you talk about kendo most people will say "What's that?".

I like this about kendo. It arouses curiosity and we can best go to explain it without the hype. I remember the first day I walked into the pub here in Bath and a bloke asked me what I was. Upon learning I was chinese he went "Oh, do you know Kung Fu?" Holywood has spawned a load of "experts" in the field of martial arts...Kung Fu?!? when a person says that people immediately think ah, yes...Bruce Lee as if they know all about what it is and that Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Doo IS KUNG FU defined....grrrr


I loved learning the cultural stuff and language as well as kendo, but it was a very difficult few months of immersion at the beginning.

As it is always difficult in the beginning when one pop's one's cherry;)

[xvikingx]

I like this about kendo. It arouses curiosity and we can best go to explain it without the hype.

Hey, I like it too. I was just saying....

[aikanaro]

First of all, I'm Mexican, therefore a native spanish speaker. Sometimes, I read publications printed in Spain or other spanish-speaking countries. Even when thought for being published outside their original countries, these publications don't "get rid" of all the localisms and terms unique to their place of origin. The result is that even when I understand most of the text, I can't grasp the meaning of some phrases, due to the terms and/or the context (which sometimes is also very local) ... and that's in my *native* language!

The use of japanese as a "lingua franca" in this context is convenient as it standarizes all terms and meanings used, making them comprehensible to anyone, regardless of nationality. There are also some terms that are untranslatable properly in other languages, so the better word to define them exists in japanese. There are unique concepts in each culture, country or particular context, such as within martial arts, that are abstract or only definable in their context, so it's OK to use the original word.

Anyway, some usual actions as saying "hello", "thanks", "bow", etc., could be used in your native tongue without "harm" done, maybe just use the japanese equivalent as "standard" when you've got people from some other country visiting so everybody understands

[samurai999]

At our dojo, we try to accomodate outside of practice, but some of the sensei that teach us are native speakers, so when they try to speak English to try to have all of us understand, they have to either do it by gestures, or by using a Japanese-English mix. They both prefer that all of the practice be done in Japanese (obviously). I try to bridge the gap as much as possible, but also prefer that people learn the lingo when trying to understand kendo. That sorta gives the dojo the proper atmosphere so that kendo is learned that way "it was meant to be learned". Might sound kinda corny, but I wanted to start kendo because I wanted to experience my culture and revisit my roots.

When you do something, don't you usually want to experience it as it was originally intended so that the full value is extracted from it? Say for example that you wanted "real" mexican food. Wouldn't it be more fulfilling if you went to an "authentic restaurant" rather than Taco Bell or Del Taco?

My 0.02$(US)

Tim

[Koushinkuma]

As it is always difficult in the beginning when one pop's one's cherry;)

Ewww! I have done research in a prison for the past 2 years so that just brought some pretty gross imagery to mind... :shocked:

[Koushinkuma]

That sorta gives the dojo the proper atmosphere so that kendo is learned that way "it was meant to be learned". Might sound kinda corny, but I wanted to start kendo because I wanted to experience my culture and revisit my roots.

When you do something, don't you usually want to experience it as it was originally intended so that the full value is extracted from it? Say for example that you wanted "real" mexican food. Wouldn't it be more fulfilling if you went to an "authentic restaurant" rather than Taco Bell or Del Taco?

Tim

Thanks Tim. I am all for experiencing things the "way they were meant to be," but I also think as an anthropologist that cultures are not static, and it is dangerous to think that any cultural idiom can really be "pure," since every culture around today is made up of both its ancestral geneaology and those with whom it comes into contact. To wit, 30's era Germany was thought by many to be "Germany the way it was meant to be," in terms of "pure" German architecture, art, language, writing, food, celebrations, etc, free of "cultural impurities."

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing kendo to nazi era germany :shocked: , but I do think it is important to question traditions that we take for granted as canon when those traditions may have been recently invented to fill a perceived need. Where do we make the distinction of when something becomes a "real" thing, ie the codified practice known as kendo as opposed to "swordsmanship," "bujitsu," "battlefield combat," etc. If we really wanted to get to the ultimate, "traditional," roots of kendo, we would have to go back to Chinese 5-6th century swordsmanship...after all, that's where the original kenshin got their ideas, and their swords, from!

I guess one of my goals in this and "that other thread" have been to try to gather a bunch of different thoughts on that which is accepted as "traditional" in kendo. In this case it is interesting that the Japanese language has come to be so closely identified with the practice itself, and it will be even more interesting to see how that remains the same or changes as kendo expands into the international realm.

Random tangent: An interesting example of "invented" tradition, the Scottish kilt. Traditional highland Scottish clothing, correct? Wrong! The thing called the "kilt" is only a few hundred years old! There were similar types of clothing in scotland but only after its independence was it thought necessary to have a "national dress code," formalized in a specific piece of clothing. But most people in the world identify the kilt as an "ancient tradition" in Scotland, even William Wallace is shown wearing one in Braveheart, when that probably wasn't the case, ie he probably had something similar, but not the same as, a kilt.

Thanks for all the input.

[JuN]

Just accept it man

[xvikingx]

Just accept it man

Wow! By far the most convincing argument I have heard. You are truly a champion of words. I hope the rest of your posts will be as insightful.

Now what have we all learned from this thread?
*Don't say anything, unless you are absolutely sure everyone will agree.

[Nanbanjin]

i see your point, but, it's not that simple. It's not that easy to just translate something. Especially between asian and english languages, because it's so different, a lot of times, it's almost impossible to ranslate the meaning of a word without using a sentence or two. Like, zanshin, seme, ki, 不動心..... and sometimes still can't capture the full meaning of the words.

Words like zanshin ( 残心 ), seme ( 攻め ), ki ( 気 ), fudohshin ( 不動心 ), etc. are often overused. Like when somebody doesn't like a hit they see but doesn't have the ability to judge just what is wrong with it, and they just say "not enough zanshin" or something similar. I really wish there was a better understanding of these terms or an equivalent in English so they wouldn't get used as a convenient substitute for something more meaningful.
xvikingx and others have mentioned counting and words like "left" and "right" and I agree that there doesn't seem to be any real use for Japanese words here.

At the moment the great bulk of knowledge regarding kendo is in Japanese, whether it is in peoples' heads or written on paper. I have thought in my darker hours that it isn't possible to really learn about kendo without learning Japanese. But I have met people who seem to have a natural flare for kendo that don't speak much Japanese at all. My theory is that if you understand that kendo is basically about "natural movement" then you don't really need to know Japanese at all. You just need to be really smart!
But to disregard Japanese as the major language in kendo somehow seems like disregarding all the knowledge that is contained in the language. I speak, and read a little Japanese myself, and am often amazed by the depth of good detailed information that is out there in Japanese.

Some Japanese words will always be part of kendo. Even for simple words like "men" there isn't an exact English equivalent. I mean is it a helmet or a mask? Before you offer your opinions about this, stop and consider using the word "Men" and you will probably see that this is the best option.

Saying that we should strive to replace Japanese words with English words smacks of xenophobia. The Japanese govrnment tried to do the same thing for English words in baseball during the Second World War. English is still a living language. Let it live.

Worrying about a few Japanese words is rich coming from the guy who started this thread anyway because I am pretty sure he is American. If he wants to be true to English stop spelling customise as "customize", colour as "color", etc., etc....

In the end, who cares? I am happy to accept words from other languages into my vocabulary. Osmosis between languages is natural.

[samurai999]

[QUOTE=Nanbanjin]Words like zanshin ( 残心 ), seme ( 攻め ), ki ( 気 ), fudohshin ( 不動心 ), etc. are often overused. Like when somebody doesn't like a hit they see but doesn't have the ability to judge just what is wrong with it, and they just say "not enough zanshin" or something similar. I really wish there was a better understanding of these terms or an equivalent in English so they wouldn't get used as a convenient substitute for something more meaningful.
xvikingx and others have mentioned counting and words like "left" and "right" and I agree that there doesn't seem to be any real use for Japanese words here.

Some Japanese words will always be part of kendo. Even for simple words like "men" there isn't an exact English equivalent. I mean is it a helmet or a mask? Before you offer your opinions about this, stop and consider using the word "Men" and you will probably see that this is the best option.

[\QUOTE]

Umm... I would think that there would be a more exact meaning for "men" or "kote" since we see them and are able to describe them. I use "breastplate" for dou. Men being mask and kote meaning "gauntlets". When you say helmet, I think of something that fully encompasses the head. When you say mask, it makes more sense to me what a "men" is. Stuff like fudoushin, zanshin, seme, mushin.. Those take more explaining because it is more than just physical or some definition you find in a Japanese-English dictionary. It also includes a sort of feeling or state of mind that most (if not all) of us in kendo have to find on our own. (well I had to and to tell you the truth, I'm still searching....) A lot of senseis have trouble "translating" these phrases and I don't blame them. It is hard. I guess the best way is to find the actual definition and start searching from there. *Shrug*

My 0.02$(US)

Tim

[Nanbanjin]

Umm... I would think that there would be a more exact meaning for "men" or "kote" since we see them and are able to describe them. I use "breastplate" for dou. Men being mask and kote meaning "gauntlets". When you say helmet, I think of something that fully encompasses the head. When you say mask, it makes more sense to me what a "men" is. Stuff like fudoushin, zanshin, seme, mushin.. Those take more explaining because it is more than just physical or some definition you find in a Japanese-English dictionary. It also includes a sort of feeling or state of mind that most (if not all) of us in kendo have to find on our own. (well I had to and to tell you the truth, I'm still searching....) A lot of senseis have trouble "translating" these phrases and I don't blame them. It is hard. I guess the best way is to find the actual definition and start searching from there. *Shrug*

My 0.02$(US)

Tim
For me "men", "kote" and "do" seem more natural.
Mask, gauntlets and breastplate seem a little general. When you use the Japanese I know exactly what you are talking about.

Finding meaning about the spiritual type terms is fine. Just don't like going on about it too much.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Purpose of counting in Japanese - the words are more guttural than English and are better suited to kiai, I think. As far as all the reiho - it's part of the experience that makes kendo what it is. Give that up, and it's one more step down the road to electronic scoring and multi-coloured uniforms for TV.

[samurai999]

For me "men", "kote" and "do" seem more natural.
Mask, gauntlets and breastplate seem a little general. When you use the Japanese I know exactly what you are talking about.

Finding meaning about the spiritual type terms is fine. Just don't like going on about it too much.

Perfect. Whatever you need to understand what they are. I use the english approximations to help people visualize what they are.

Tim

[gsx1100s]

I see your point but to me its sorta like going to a Japanese restaurant and ordering some"raw fish please!" I'd much rather the mytique of Sushi and Sashimi. It not only sounds better it tastes better too!:)
Some things should evolve , some stay the same for a good reason...if it ain't broke ...don't fix it!

cheers Michael

[regularyojimbo]

Why does it matter if katakana is used for Western names on zekken? Its much like the trend for tattoos in katakana or the predominance of kanji characters as tatoos except its not permanent. I wonder if Japanese kids get their tattoos in English!?

Why are so many Westerners interested in the cultures of Asia? Why do they need to have Asian girlfriends? Why do Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, Kendo, Iaido, Aikido flourish? Why is manga so popular?

Then the flip side is Japanese kids emulate American rappers, basketball, American movies lead the way worldwide.

Can the original poster of this thread explain to all of us why they started kendo?

Thanks

Jaa abayo

[Munnin]

Since I am just beginning kendo I don’t claim to have any answers only questions.



I like this thread because I have found my self having to navigate in these waters already. Since the main instructor was out yesterday, two Iadio instructors stayed to help both were very knowledgeable and helpful. The main Iadio instructor, an older oriental with a mild accent, introduced him self with a smile and a hand shake before correcting my form. After class I went to talk to the instructor about the cost of renting Bogu and hesitated, should I thank him in Japanese or English. Not sure what the right answer is, but its been educational.

[tapioka]

this is really interesting...

I personally am Japanese, and I thoroughly enjoy my culture to its fullest extent for what it really is. the thing that upsets me most however is that today's Japanese world is supposedly being "Americanized"...girls with bleached-blonde hair, artificial tans...all that jazz.

the real beauty of the culture is found within simple things. like small tea ceremonies or little old ladies working in a ramen shop wearing kimono. these things haven't been touched by modern changes, and in a way I wish kendo would never change either.

I'm not criticizing western culture, surely, but I think kendo should rightfully belong to Japan as part of its ethnic beauty. it would be nice for people who learn kendo to accept the culture that comes with it, instead of forcing their own culture into it.

[hamish]

Certainly technical terms(concepts like zanshin etc. included), counting, the training leader's commands and so on should be in Japanese, but if you find yourself having a conversation in Japanese with someone who normally speaks the same language as you, I'd suggest you're going too far! (unless you're fully fluent and both want to practice your Japanese)

The methods of teaching kendo must adapt for the country it is being taught in, stressing the 'kendo Japanese cultural experience' too much can be counter-productive, in my view.

[Hai_hai]

...I've been thinking about this lately. Should Japanese continue perpetually in the future to be the official, lingua franca of kendo?
The answer is yes. You can stop thinking now. I'll do it for you.

[Hai_hai]

Kendo wouldn't be kendo (or kumdo wouldn't be kumdo) without Japanese terms (Korean terms). If I walked into a dojo which used English to replace all Japanese terms, words, phrases and commands, I feel I wouldn't be experiencing a true kendo practice. Kind of like when I order any food from the International House of Pancakes, I don't feel like I'm eating anything international.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Like going to taco bell. You eat at taco bell and you know it isn't real authentic mexican food, and your toilet knows later....so HECK NO keep the Japanese it's not like it's a thousand of them you need to know and they become second nature after awhile.

[louisvandalen]

I propose Dutch as being the new international (kendo) language. After all these years I'm starting to get tired from all these other countries that refuse to speak any other language than the domestic one. Damn, being born in Holland means you have to learn at least 2 foreign languages and in most cases people learn 3 (in addition to Dutch). Finally i got used to English, German and (yuk) French, please let us drop Japanese !!!!

Regards,

Louis
www.uiteindhoven.nl (http://www.uiteindhoven.nl)
- he can't count to 10 in Japanese but watch his shinai -

[Skolld]

Kendo wouldn't be kendo (or kumdo wouldn't be kumdo) without Japanese terms (Korean terms). If I walked into a dojo which used English to replace all Japanese terms, words, phrases and commands, I feel I wouldn't be experiencing a true kendo practice. Kind of like when I order any food from the International House of Pancakes, I don't feel like I'm eating anything international.
i know this is an old thread but i couldn't help thinking that if you take the Japanese out of Kendo you could no longer do Kendo, you would have to practice "Way of the Sword" or some such translation,
anyway....

[Gary Severyn]

Here's my two-cents worth on this topic:

I feel that pretty much everything dealing with the practice of Kendo should remain in the Japanese language..... BUT, what I have found most difficult of all regarding this... is simply "understanding" what the heck it was I just heard from either the Sensei or the senior student. Know what I mean? Japanese 'pronunciation' with words seems to be totally whacko! (just my experience and opinion mind you).

Frankly, half the time I can't make out the words (commands) that the senior sempi is stating.... his sounds remind me too much of some gutteral exclamation when one is attempting to take a particularly diffiicult dump... and the Sensei's aren't much better.

Just why the heck can't they P R O N U N C I A T E the friggen words they use, hugh????

:robot:

[Wout]

Umm... I would think that there would be a more exact meaning for "men" or "kote" since we see them and are able to describe them. I use "breastplate" for dou. Men being mask and kote meaning "gauntlets". When you say helmet, I think of something that fully encompasses the head. When you say mask, it makes more sense to me what a "men" is. Stuff like fudoushin, zanshin, seme, mushin.. Those take more explaining because it is more than just physical or some definition you find in a Japanese-English dictionary. It also includes a sort of feeling or state of mind that most (if not all) of us in kendo have to find on our own. (well I had to and to tell you the truth, I'm still searching....) A lot of senseis have trouble "translating" these phrases and I don't blame them. It is hard. I guess the best way is to find the actual definition and start searching from there. *Shrug*

My 0.02$(US)

Tim

actually don't men kote and do also mean whats under the men kote and do, like the head hand and stomach, that would make the use of the the english words a biot more inaccurate.

[indigo0086]

this is really interesting...

I personally am Japanese, and I thoroughly enjoy my culture to its fullest extent for what it really is. the thing that upsets me most however is that today's Japanese world is supposedly being "Americanized"...girls with bleached-blonde hair, artificial tans...all that jazz.

speaking of jazz, japan has a really great jazz scene, they've found their niche...over.

[DanDan]

i think we should all just stick to japanese (for kendo) and korean (for kumdo). i mean think about it...instead of men or muhri, we might be saying head and for kote or sunmok, we might be saying wrist...that'd be some strange kiai don't u think?