How to Fight, counts.

[Masahiro]

Hey Guys, I need your help.

Imafuji sensei of kendo-guide.com mentioned an article written by Sumi Masatake hanshi in the March edition of Kendo Nippon Magazine.

The article was about how we should approach "shiai", and in particular the process of how we approach our opponent.

Sumi sensei said the process ought to do shia with an attutide of "with an attitude of Koumei Seidai following the principle of the sword". And that the process of doing should be "1. Tameru 2. Kuzusu 3. Suteru"

Can anyone give me the kanji character for those words? "Koumei Seidai " and "ameru 2. Kuzusu 3. Suteru". ( i know some of them, but not all)

As well as if you want to chime in on your thoughts on the topic, be my guest.

[Oroshi]

Kōmei seidai 公明正大
Tameru 溜める
Kuzusu 崩す
Suteru 捨てる

I assume you know what all these mean.

[Masahiro]

thanks a lot Oroshi!!! Seeing the kanji really helps, but I am not so sure if I understand "tameru" and "kuzusu", can we go into the etymology and different forms of the verbs? Or even how u have applied these concepts in ur daily practice would be great, and of tremendous help to me! Thanks

[tango]

At the risk of divulging my complete incompentence... is "tameru" and "tame" the same thing? What about "suteru" and "sutemi"?

I can't read kanji and have not heard these other terms, so I'm very interested to learn something new from any discussion that goes on with this...

[michaelm]

Interested in understanding more about the term koumei seidai.
(I'm kanji-challenged as well.)

My working understanding of the others (corrections welcome):
tameru: to build up
kuzusu: to disrupt(???)
suteru: to sacrifice

While we're at it, I often hear tame and gaman (sp?) together. Anyone care to provide more color, literal and working translations on gaman?

Thanks,
-Michael

[DCPan]

At the risk of divulging my complete incompentence... is "tameru" and "tame" the same thing? What about "suteru" and "sutemi"?


I believe it is verb vs. noun thing.




While we're at it, I often hear tame and gaman (sp?) together. Anyone care to provide more color, literal and working translations on gaman?


If you heard it from Koike sensei, I believe he was talking about something alone the lines of "playing chicken"...so the tame is the build up the pressure to see who breaks (kuzushii) and chicken out first....

YMMV.

[Fonsz]

Interested in understanding more about the term koumei seidai.
(I'm kanji-challenged as well.)

My working understanding of the others (corrections welcome):
tameru: to build up
kuzusu: to disrupt(???)
suteru: to sacrifice

While we're at it, I often hear tame and gaman (sp?) together. Anyone care to provide more color, literal and working translations on gaman?

Thanks,
-Michael
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2008/08/26/secrets-of-kuzushi/
All you ever wanted to know about Kuzushi. Don't forget to thank George for this valuable community service.

[Anime12478]

Tame is something I have heard a lot about recently since Takano sensei says that I need more of it. In short, the concept of tame is building up your energy to the point that you are able to release it whenever it is needed. For the term gaman, the dictionary says that it means patience or perserverence. So, I guess to tie them both together, you need to always be prepared to attack, but you must also be able to only release that energy when it's needed. The kuzusu is supposed to mean the action of making your opponent move to your will. Then suteru is to literally throw yourself away, but can mean to just throw your mind away so you can react without having to do too much physical thinking.

So, I guess to put it all together, to be effective in a match, you have to build up your energy, but also wait to release it at the right time by either finding or creating openings on your opponent but not really think in terms of "cause and effect" the whole time.

It's pretty short, but that's the jist of what I have to say.

[michaelm]

http://kenshi247.net/blog/2008/08/26/secrets-of-kuzushi/
All you ever wanted to know about Kuzushi. Don't forget to thank George for this valuable community service.

Thanks. Forgot about that article.
...soaking it in again.

[michaelm]

If you heard it from Koike sensei, I believe he was talking about something alone the lines of "playing chicken"...so the tame is the build up the pressure to see who breaks (kuzushii) and chicken out first....
YMMV.
Yup. Once in striking range, have the mental strength not to attack right away, but hold it there while at the same time putting mental pressure on the opponent to make them anxious about your attack, then attack as they lose composure.

We focused on this exclusively the night before my last shinsa. I'm really grateful for that.

[Oroshi]

Verb → Noun:
Tameru → Tame (accumulating, storing up)
Kuzusu → Kuzushi (breaking - as in the link above)
Suteru → Sute (discarding - as in sutemi)

Kōmei Seidai means "fair, honest, honourable." In this case it could probably be thought of as 'good sportsmanship.'

[Masahiro]

Thanks everyone for contributing, really helped me to understand more about my kendo and what the "correct" process of keiko should be.

My interpretation of the terms are as follows:

"公明正大" <Komei Seidai> To be righteous, to be benevolent, to be just and fair. As others have said basically, old literature used to love describing games of amusement between the gentleman were done in this manner. And that the losers would congratulate the winners and the winners would be humble towards his achievements.

"捨てる" <suteru> hard to translate, this one. To me, it means to "sacrifice in order to preserve a greater good". It might be insufficient to just say the word only conveys "giving something up", for what? is the question I believe we must ask. Is it for a good cause? I can do this at times, but even so, i can not do it without the slightest hesitation. The concept "shikai" (4 sickness) I believe is the key to understanding this knowledge.

"崩す" <kuzusu>harder to explain, to me it means to "make something collapse, from the foundation". So, this is very hard to do in regular keiko for me. Even if I am playing against mudansha. I've certainly been on the receiving end of this from hachidan, nanadan sensei's. It's very difficult to do, and is something I am actively trying to learn how to do right now.

"溜める" <tameru> I still don't understand, I understand the kanji, but ...then again i don't understand the concept. Please would someone elaborate more on this. ....George?? Guys?

[Kent Enfield]

Anyone care to provide more color, literal and working translations on gaman?Gaman is pretty straightforward. It means something like endurance or perseverance.


...so the tame is the build up the pressure to see who breaks (kuzushii) and chicken out first....Just a point of nuance: Japanese verbs usually come in transitive-intransitive pairs (like set and sit in English). Kuzusu is the transitive one, whereas kuzureru is the intransitive of the pair. Thus kuzushi inherits a sense of someone actively destroying someone else's kamae (the verb isn't limited to kendo or budo, of course).

[Anime12478]

"溜める" <tameru> I still don't understand, I understand the kanji, but ...then again i don't understand the concept. Please would someone elaborate more on this. ....George?? Guys?

I had already sent you a PM about this, but maybe I can reword the definition to make it less confusing.

The best way I can think of defining tameru is to think of it as the action of a spring. A spring at rest has no energy contained in it, thus no energy to output. This is kinda the same way when we get excited and just attack with no preparation. There is no way you can be effective this way in the higher ranks because it doesn't look like a concentrated hit.

Now let's think about pushing down that spring. Now we are storing energy. The more compressed the spring is, the more energy that is stored in it. We have all felt that apprehension to attack whether or not we are really prepared for it. Think of that as a unit of energy being stored into that spring (being pushed down just a little bit). But instead of just going for it, you hold in that desire to hit and wait until the time is right (whatever that may be). At this point, you don't want to relax until the next opportunity, you want to hold in that excitement to make sure you do have the energy to go.

Now, you realize that you have found that opening doing whatever you can with kuzushi. That is the moment you strike, which is similar to letting that spring go. All that energy that has been stored from compressing the spring is now getting released in one big burst. This is the kind of thing that I, personally, need to work towards based on what I have been told from various sensei.

I hope that all makes sense to everyone!

[Masahiro]

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the reply and thoughtful participation. You brought up some very good points. I guess I should have been more clear when I said " i don't understand the concept of tameru".
The kinetic energy and potential energy example is a very good one, and that brings me to another point which I will mention later on in this post.

Laying foundation here, let's do bare in mind concepts like "energy is neither created nor destroyed (it just changes forms)" and Newton's 3 law of physics.

I think most people have experienced and/or can comprehend the "what" of the "tameru"(build up/store) phase. And the "what" is the external, observable signs of what happens when someone builds up "tension" and "energy" to attack. Like how we lunge forward with fumikomi to strike our aite.
But the question of "how" is harder to understand, and that's what I want to know.
Let me elaborate by evoking in everyone a familiar situation in everyday practice. You are faced with an opponent, you are told to relax, and so you do. But there' still (mental)tension, as a result of both parties actively trying to break each other's center. The question I want to know is..."how can we maintain a mental state of *readiness* and in an instant translate all that potential energy to kinetic energy?" is it through sheer condition by repetition? Is it? If so then does that mean that I can be as fast as Takanabe if I practice as much as he did? (in theory, if we were able to quantify the hours and suppose the quality of practice is not a factor)
Are some people simply naturally able to consciously or not control their neuro impulses faster than others? Or is it pure mathematical equation to which if we figure out the equation to, then we can all obtain favorable results.....of equal quality? The process "期待" (anticipation) thus the build up, is only the 1st part i think. ..something is still required to tweak just the right amount of "tension" and not "too tense" into instantaneous explosion of potential energy into kinetic energy. Any thoughts on that? Is it "feeling"? or "Judgment"?

[Anime12478]

Ah, I see now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

When it comes to how to go about this, I think that there really isn't some simple answer to this as it would mostly depend on the individual for how best to go about it. There are some people who seem to be better in the response department than others and can skillfully dish out attacks when the time is right. Can someone who isn't as great at that just train and reach the same level as the other person? I won't say that it's impossible, but I wouldn't really bet too much money that the answer is simply just training for a long time. The beauty of Kendo is that, while there are only 4 main targets, there are many ways in which to reach them that can fit anyone's fitness and experience level.

Of course, this is something that everyone should try to develop to make your attacks more stronger and more believable to the participants involved, but how should we go about doing that? You seem to have a suggestion that either judgement or feel (or both) may be mostly responsible to taking the best advantage of tame. Along those lines, I see a little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. Attacks tend to come out better when you have that gut feeling that you should go for it instead of just watching what is going on and reacting to it. Your body tends to react faster if you can feel the situation as opposed to seeing something and having the impulses translated to your brain before making it to your muscles for movement. But then, anyone can use that gut feeling and still just attack without tame, which is where the judgement comes in. While a lot of what we do in Kendo relies on feel, you still have to look at your opponent and see if he/she has a good kamae and quickly decide on how to take care of that. From judging the situation, that is when you can use the "feel" part of it to sense whether or not the time is right to react and then go accordingly.

But then, all of this wouldn't mean shit if your physical body wasn't up to the task. While we may be able to see things, it's up to our bodies to make that quick lunge forward. That is where quality training time comes in. Are your muscles stiff? Are your legs in the right position for optimal movement? If the answer is no, then it's up to you and your sempai/sensei to see what the problem may be and fix it so you are on the right track to having that quick, powerful body response.

All of this will take the time, but you can't just remove quality from the equation. In my own geeky way I guess it could be summed like this:

Ability = practice time + quality

If you drop the quality term from the equation, then your overall ability will always be smaller than what it could be with the term kept in. In short, I doubt you'd be able to become as good as Takanabe if you just factor in practice time itself.

[DCPan]

The question I want to know is..."how can we maintain a mental state of *readiness* and in an instant translate all that potential energy to kinetic energy?" is it through sheer condition by repetition?

I currently believe it is by repetition of "correct" training with the correct focus in mind.

As to that correct focus, I'm thinking about how to build my "structure" right now, for the lack of a better term.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10763

In other words, I'm looking for a better chudan.

YMMV.

[Masahiro]

Hey DC,

Thanks for the link, i read through it and found some interesting/useful ideas to supplement what I recently discovered about "溜める", but "崩す" is still very hard for me to do.
I too have been looking for a better "structure" as well as "mental process". Let's see how i fare at the next taikai!!!! hehehehe

[Bokushingu]

too have been looking for a better "structure" as well as "mental process". Let's see how i fare at the next taikai!!!! hehehehe

i too have been training lately to bring my practice game more in line with my Shiai & Shinsa play. I spoke with a Sport Pysch Counselor. An she reccomended a variety of Techniques to deal with Anxiety & Choking. I have also learned that Choking is a form of Zone. Choking which is my greatest problem comes from focusing on external factors and putting expectations on your performance. Staying in the Zone comes from Focusing on internal factors & staying in the now.

There are a various amount of techniques that can make your shiai game the same as your practice game. i found these links about self sabotage: Part1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9mbOAMgn80), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRpHmYLw8eI), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa0UGdFqHuQ), Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijViCmjK5Q) These videos were made by Mr. sapolis for pool Players but I found them to relate to my problems with choking. I also corresponded with Mr. Sapolis via email & he explained that he will redo the videos with all sports in mind.

Here are his video on mental mastery: Mental Training part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQrGTbkvj4M), Mental training Part2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnhlIQJ_pz0), Mental Training Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Em8ZxxVSSc), Mental Training Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEjDlHlc4WI)

I have found these video have helped me tremendously especially with learning to use Tameru, Seme, Jodan, etc... I have been able to play stronger players: San Dans & Yon dans. Sunday I will go to the Team USA practice to play And Next week i will play at the North south. i feel confident that I have gained control over my anxiety. I will update you guys next week.

[enkorat]

The question I want to know is..."how can we maintain a mental state of *readiness* and in an instant translate all that potential energy to kinetic energy?" Are some people simply naturally able to consciously or not control their neuro impulses faster than others?

I could really dork out here if you really wanted me to.... but my underqualified and completely unsufficent answer to your question would be "yes...sort of".

[Masahiro]

dude, you are such a dork even for just saying that you "could have" went all empirical and scientific!!!

i think i am guess what you are referring to though, but if you want, follow up with a "semi-dorky" answer anyways. always enjoyed hearing what you had to say!

[Bokushingu]

Masahiro, how did you do at the last taikai? I went to the North-South & a few National Team Practice & I believed I achieved my goal of playing with little to no anxiety.

[G-CHAN]

I think most people have experienced and/or can comprehend the "what" of the "tameru"(build up/store) phase. And the "what" is the external, observable signs of what happens when someone builds up "tension" and "energy" to attack. Like how we lunge forward with fumikomi to strike our aite.
But the question of "how" is harder to understand, and that's what I want to know.
Let me elaborate by evoking in everyone a familiar situation in everyday practice. You are faced with an opponent, you are told to relax, and so you do. But there' still (mental)tension, as a result of both parties actively trying to break each other's center. The question I want to know is..."how can we maintain a mental state of *readiness* and in an instant translate all that potential energy to kinetic energy?" is it through sheer condition by repetition? Is it? If so then does that mean that I can be as fast as Takanabe if I practice as much as he did? (in theory, if we were able to quantify the hours and suppose the quality of practice is not a factor)
Are some people simply naturally able to consciously or not control their neuro impulses faster than others? Or is it pure mathematical equation to which if we figure out the equation to, then we can all obtain favorable results.....of equal quality? The process "期待" (anticipation) thus the build up, is only the 1st part i think. ..something is still required to tweak just the right amount of "tension" and not "too tense" into instantaneous explosion of potential energy into kinetic energy. Any thoughts on that? Is it "feeling"? or "Judgment"?

This is a very good question, for me I think it's both feeling and judgement.

This is totally based on my experience in kendo so feel free to throw rocks at it if you want.

When you reach a certain skill level in kendo (not necessarily rank), but you
have a pretty good handle on the 3 basic strikes (men, kote, doh) and a pretty good knowledge of various wazas, you just naturally have a better
understanding on how to fight.

For example, maintaining the mental state of readiness, against a strong aite,
every time I move into issoku maai, I'm not only applying seme, but I'm also ready to attack.(I try to be anyway).

This is because when I move into issoku, I always have 2 options, a proactive
strike and a counterstrike. But what my sensei said to me was that whenever
you're applying seme, not only are you applying pressure but you're also in
attack mode. Even when you counter. So if you think about it, it's a mindset.

There are other factors to consider too, like knowing your opponent.
You always seem to fight against the same guys in shiai and you know the fellas at the dojo. You have a pretty good idea how they fight, but, they
also know how you fight as well.

Tameru....when you're fighting against a strong opponent and he knows how you fight, he's not going to blindly attack you, niether am I. Depending on
who the opponent is, I usaually have a pretty good idea what I have to do to fight the guy. What it really comes down to for me is who's going to make a mistake first or I have to out waza the guy.

So I think the answer to your question(s) is that you have to have confidence in your ability to proactively strike and counter strike.
If it isn't, I'm sorry. I tried.

oyasumi everyone.:)

[Masahiro]

thanks for the thoughtful answers, G-Chan. This is a very subjective question isn't it? one that i think will result in different kind of answers for different people.

[Raffa]

Please correct me if i said something wrong.
I was thinking that the whole process (i know it is very simplified) that end in an Hippon is the following:

1-Seme - To apply anoffensive pressure with the objective of breaking the aite mental/physical balance

2-Tame- The stress resulting from the above pressure, this stress built up as the seme is still apllied.

3-Kuzusu- Maybe is my engeener point of view, but basically i think of this as the tame (stress) reach the breaking point of the kamae of one of the two opponent. Breaking a kamae is indended both as creating an opening or forcing an attack.

4-Suki- As the kamae is broken, an opportunity for striking is born.

5-Datotsu- Using the above opportumity to hit a valid target

6-Zanshin- To put your mind on the opponent and control him until the action is over, preventing an effective reaction.

Too much points? Something with wrong meaning? Let me know please...

[Raffa]

Ah and regarding sutemi, i think it is inside point 5, you must hit the target with a spirt of "sacrifice".

[still learning]

5-Datotsu- Using the above opportumity to hit a valid target

Well put.
Simple, easily grasped explanations.

In terms of the original expressions in question then can we say that 'point 5' [above] must have Sutemi - - complete commitment to the attack........?

[Masahiro]

what a nice continuation of the original discussion,

speaking for my own, in my daily practice, so long as i "feel" there's a "kuzusu" I will commit to my attack with as much conviction as i can. (sometimes better than others) The thought of attacking without self regard happens for me before i even commit to the strike, regarding these type of "actions" that require some type of emotion. I think we humans tend to "feel" first then "do". . . .don't we? even if it's 1/10 of a millisecond before the action. That feeling is important, i think!

suki is always *present* for me, in that even if there's no outward "openings" there maybe a "break" in the mind. This ability to identify the mental gap in concentration becomes very important when you are playing in jodan. (at least for me it is)

also these days i am thinking, "kuzusu" manifests in both the aite, as well as the attacker. When i make a movement to attack, there's an opening. That is why i think the old ones are able to hit me! hahahahaha

any thoughts?

[Raffa]

In my case i'am not able (maybe yet) to feel a kuzusu (the cause).
The only thing i recognize (sometimes) is a suki (the effect).
Maybe in time my level will raise and will begin seeing these other aspects...

Regarding sutemi, simplyfing a lot again, for me it is to give all or nothing, no middle position. When decided an attack i must execute it without thinking of consequences. Priority is to hit, to be hitten in response is not considered, as in that case my attack will not be with "full" heart.
I see it as a verbal paradox.
The advantage of doing so is that a full heart attack is more diffcult to avoid that one executed with the fear to be hitten back.
So the paradox is that, speaking in terms of a real sword fight, is more unlikely to die if you attack with the idea of sacrificing yourself (sutemi) then attack being afraid to be hitten back. Or seeing from another point of view, if in a fight you have no fear of dying, is more unlike that it will happen, just because your attacks will be more effective.
Thinking in this way Sutemi was a very usefull thing in a duel or on battlefield.

But maybe i have misunderstood the whole thing....

[G-CHAN]

speaking for my own, in my daily practice, so long as i "feel" there's a "kuzusu" I will commit to my attack with as much conviction as i can. (sometimes better than others) The thought of attacking without self regard happens for me before i even commit to the strike, regarding these type of "actions" that require some type of emotion. I think we humans tend to "feel" first then "do". . . .don't we? even if it's 1/10 of a millisecond before the action. That feeling is important, i think!

suki is always *present* for me, in that even if there's no outward "openings" there maybe a "break" in the mind. This ability to identify the mental gap in concentration becomes very important when you are playing in jodan. (at least for me it is)

also these days i am thinking, "kuzusu" manifests in both the aite, as well as the attacker. When i make a movement to attack, there's an opening. That is why i think the old ones are able to hit me! hahahahaha

any thoughts?

Hey Mas.....I agree with you on the feeling/doing thing, but there's a difference of feeling/doing when you fight somebody you know as opposed to fighting somebody you don't know, y'know what I mean?

About suki.... if I get the "feeling" that the aite is trying to sucker me in, I always play it safe by manipulating the aite's shinai, I'll attack using either
harai or osae waza. This seems like a simple plan of attack, but for me I'm...

1) Still in control of the situation by intiating a attack of my choosing
2) It's the safest way to create opportunities without being countered.
3) It's a good way to build momentum during a fight, it gives the aite something more to think about in which it could lead to more opportunities.

With that said... creating opportunities requires thought and skill, so you just can't attack on feeling/doing alone.

Take care:)

[Masahiro]

that's right G-chan, great reply. regardless of experience, everyone can contribute to the discussion. i like that.

[G-CHAN]

thanx Mas.