Osae Kote Men

[Kent Enfield]

This comes from an entry I made over at kenshi247, but I thought I'd bring this to Kendo World to get a potentially wider view.

In Kendo Kyohon, Takano Sasaburo gives a list of 50 techniques one should practice. While many of them are no longer commonly used (kneeling kote, anyone?), most of the descriptions are at least clear on what is being described. However, some of them leave me wondering just what is going on.

In the section for men techniques, he lists osae kote men.

押篭手面
雙方右と同じ構にて相對して居る時，敵より我が面へ撃ち來るを、其の右篭手を押へ、其の儘一歩踏込み、てを 伸ばして面を撃つ。
I translated that as the following:

Osae Kote Men
When both parties are facing each other in the same kamae as above, as the enemy comes to strike your men, press his right kote and, from there, step in one step, stretch out your arms, and strike men.
Does anyone know what this technique actually is?

[Bokushingu]

This comes from an entry I made over at kenshi247, but I thought I'd bring this to Kendo World to get a potentially wider view.

In Kendo Kyohon, Takano Sasaburo gives a list of 50 techniques one should practice. While many of them are no longer commonly used (kneeling kote, anyone?), most of the descriptions are at least clear on what is being described. However, some of them leave me wondering just what is going on.

In the section for men techniques, he lists osae kote men.

I translated that as the following:

Does anyone know what this technique actually is?

actually my sensei has been trying to teach me it since I have a long reach. he does it to me just as it is described above--the feeling i feel is that i can not move my hands or arms but my body comes out of center and he follows with a men. he reads me just as im about to move and strike he does it. I haven't been able to do it. becuase I can't grasp the amount opf pressure or weight transfer. but every time I rotate to him in line he has me do it over & over.

[Masahiro]

this is just my guess, but motodachi hits men.....kakarite steps to the kararite's right with hiraki ashi, as the motodachi's men comes down. ..kakarite has motodachi's center, but the motodachi doesn't have the kakarite's. All is needed is to do regular "otoshi" or osae from the omote side and bam.. MEN ARI!

no?

[Masahiro]

crap, i just realized it should be "osae kote, then men". (as in countering technique) I thought it was "osae kote, men" as in shikake waza! I guess I should have spent time reading the kanji.

in which case, just step to the aite's right when they come in for kote. osae their shinai (at the right distance of course) and hit men and zanshin.

my favorite kote oji waza, it's a sure point each and every time!

[Kent Enfield]

he does it to me just as it is described aboveSo what exactly does he do?

[tango]

Osae Kote Men
When both parties are facing each other in the same kamae as above, as the enemy comes to strike your men, press his right kote and, from there, step in one step, stretch out your arms, and strike men.

Going out on a limb here, but what I'm envisioning is that aite is maybe pushing the kensen forward as the lead up to men, and you're supposed to come right over the top of the incoming-kensen (maintaining shinai-to-shinai contact and pressing to migi kote), followed by men.

I may be wrong, but that's how I'm understanding the translation. Then again, that kinda just seems like straight osae-men, but my understanding of what osae really is may be faulty. I know we've had threads on it before (and I think I asked about it months ago)... maybe I need to do some googling...

[Fonsz]

Osae Kote Men
Trying not to be an armchair kendoka I practiced what I think should be osae kote men. It was something like a maki on the ura side. Stepping in hiraki ashi, the kensaki on the kobushi, the moment my left foot was in position I could strike men. It worked this way but I would like to know how others would perceive this one. As you can see I find this one highly intriguing.
Quoting myself from Kenshi 24/7 anyone better ideas?

[Paburo]

i think we do this often at our dojo... and its very effective.

as i understand it:

opponent starts moving forward and up for men, in this very instant you push/press down (osae) "trapping" his shinai under yours, your own kensen barely pointing at his right kote(from omote), and after you've won "the center" and nullified his momentum follow up with a quick men from there.

if this is the same waza we practice, i think "press the right kote" could had been further explained as "press the opponents shinai down towards his right kote"....

imho it works from omote and ura but its more natural and effective (at least for me!) from omote....

[michaelm]

My understanding is the same as Pablo's.

[tango]

i think we do this often at our dojo... and its very effective.

as i understand it:

opponent starts moving forward and up for men, in this very instant you push/press down (osae) "trapping" his shinai under yours, your own kensen barely pointing at his right kote(from omote), and after you've won "the center" and nullified his momentum follow up with a quick men from there.

if this is the same waza we practice, i think "press the right kote" could had been further explained as "press the opponents shinai down towards his right kote"....

imho it works from omote and ura but its more natural and effective (at least for me!) from omote....

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to describe, but I think you did a better job of it... :)

[DCPan]

How about what the girl does at 29 seconds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzIDu_M-Bd8

[Black Knight]

I'm just guessing at it but I think DCPan has it right. It sounds like the osae motion is ON THE KOTE and then you strike men.

Most kendoka are going to imagine that osae means push down the shinai, because in modern kendo it's a foul to push on your opponent's body with the shinai. We just don't do stuff like that. Not so back in the day. Nice call DC Pan.

[Bokushingu]

yes, paburo explains it as my Sensei explains it to me except he is touching my kote with the tip of his shinai. the pressure isn't obsessive it's is just enough to stop my arms from coming up. but he does the osae kote as a hit...so i guess it wouldn't be a foul. And then bang! Men.

[Toecutter]

I don't understand is everyone saying you actually make contact with the kote push down then men or push down on the shinai slightly aiming for the kote then hit men?

[Black Knight]

Yeah I guess the way around the foul possibility is to make it look like regular kote men as much as possible?

Not that those kinds of fouls get called often...probably about a often as someone getting hansoku for pushing another person out of bounds. :)

But you know, Bokushingu, Paburo is talking about osae on the shinai, not the person's kote...

[misterkurukuru]

I use this waza on a regular basis, but i don't know anyone else who does. perhaps MAZZ used it on me once or twice. I actually press in the left kote or the person's tsuka . if you have your arms fully extended you wont be able to do it.

[Kent Enfield]

i think "press the right kote" could had been further explained as "press the opponents shinai down towards his right kote"...Except that the description specifically says "其の右篭手を押へ"--"press [down on] his right kote".

I think David's video is the right direction, but was wondering if anyone experience with this technique in a kendo context. I'm also trying to figure out why you would press teki's kote instead of just striking it.

[Fonsz]

How about what the girl does at 29 seconds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzIDu_M-Bd8
I think that this one fits more to the description "osae kote (men)". But in this case the girl steps in the moment aite strikes. Timing is very important here. But I can't imagine doing this in Kendo. Ducking and stepping in seems a bit awkward to do in nowadays Kendo. It's true you trap the hands this way bit I'm guessing that referees don't perceive this as Kendo as we know it.
We still haven't found a satisfactory explanation. Anyone else out there?

[The great I AM]

Does anyone know what this technique actually is?Er, useless?

[DCPan]

Timing is very important here. But I can't imagine doing this in Kendo. Ducking and stepping in seems a bit awkward to do in nowadays Kendo.

The video was just to illustrate the point of actually pressing on the right forearm.

For something more kendo-ish, try watching a seitei jodo video...they don't duck and bend over there...but I'll bet someone will say, "But, but, they aren't doing it with a sword, it's a jo!" :D

YMMV

[Paburo]

Except that the description specifically says "其の右篭手を押へ"--"press [down on] his right kote".

I think David's video is the right direction, but was wondering if anyone experience with this technique in a kendo context. I'm also trying to figure out why you would press teki's kote instead of just striking it.

if that was the case, then i don't understand why pressing "down" the kote instead of cutting it (from ura) would be a useful waza at all either.... especially pressing down the RIGHT kote which is a perfectly valid datotsu when in chudan...

though, as i said before, pressing down the kote from omote would pretty much involve pressing down opponents shinai as well i guess, unless the aite is in gedan or jodan....

about dcpan's video, i sometimes do a similar thing (however it's called!) showed in that video but against hiki men, and instead of pushing "down" the LEFT kote of the aite, i brush it to the side. it's very effective and funny to see how some ppl lose balance going backwards... :D

[bobdonny]

Osae kote in kendo is used with hirake ashi. You gently "touch" their kote (left or right) as they attack men. Once you make contact you strongly press down (and pull in towards you if you want). When they are off balance strike men or dou. The main purpose of this attack is to unbalance them mentally and physically... as they are putting their momentum into their shinai for the strike; their wrists are the best place to put them off balance with a tiny bit of applied force. Hirakawa sensei 8th dan though this and many other variations. We'd use it the odd time espcially with junior members who are doing bad kihon in uchikomi. It can work sometimes in gikeiko but usually your timing needs to be much better than your opponent.

[DCPan]

if that was the case, then i don't understand why pressing "down" the kote instead of cutting it (from ura) would be a useful waza at all either....

Because you can add a spiral or torque to the press to break the person's posture.

Or, in a non-sporting context, subdue someone without maiming them.

YMMV.

[G-CHAN]

Hmmm...this waza doesn't make any sense to me. For you to extend your arms to strike the men your arms would have to be very short or the guy would have to be short in stature. Is there any video of this waza?

[G-CHAN]

Or is it a different form of kote men? Interesting....

[bobdonny]

Only useful if you want to disturb their balance or momentum :)

[Bokushingu]

Only useful if you want to disturb their balance or momentum :)

it definately disturbs my balance & momentum. I think it slightly shifts my CG because usually if he just goes Men, I'm too tall for him to get a satisfying cut. but as soon as his tip puts that little bit of staying pressure on my kote it tilts me forward slightly & he can hit a solid sounding men on me.

it is really nice when he gets it. I kind of put it in my list of things to learn later on--I'm just not skilled enough or ready to use it.

also he does it after I seme'd him into slightly blocking & going for his Kote full speed 100% from the body not leaning. I'm very confident in the effectiveness of my Seme-kote against my level & slightly higher. occassionally he will do when i'm going Men if I make the mistake of raising my tip before i go.

And Like misterkurukuru, he ussually gets my left kote or the tsuba.

[Jefe]

Yeah I guess the way around the foul possibility is to make it look like regular kote men as much as possible?

Not that those kinds of fouls get called often...probably about a often as someone getting hansoku for pushing another person out of bounds. :)

But you know, Bokushingu, Paburo is talking about osae on the shinai, not the person's kote...

What Paburo explained that is osae men. Pushing down the opponents shinai, then go for men. This is a shikake waza, killing the opponent's sword (ken-o-korosu), before you hit.
What Bokushingu tried to explain, that is osae kote, then men. This is what Sasaburo sensei meant. The opponent tries to hit a men (as the example says), you push (keep) down his/her kote with your kensen just in the phase of initiation, and you go for men.
This version is oji-waza, and really devastating, because you kill the opponent's waza (waza-o-korosu). To do that, you have to have a good seme to push the opponent, make him/her go for your men, and you catch him/her when just initiating the hit (hands didn't go up much yet).
Similar devastating waza is uchiotoshi waza, when you hit the opponent's sword down just before that will reach you, and then you go for men/kote.

[Bokushingu]

ahhhh Sempai, jefe thanks for clearing that up. :)

[Jefe]

ahhhh Sempai, jefe thanks for clearing that up. :)
I don't think I'm a sempai for you now, but I'm glad if I made this clear. Good luck my friend! :)