Men kaeshi do

[skilled]

Hi

I am starting to focus in this technique


I would apreciate any thoughts on this one

the timing , etc.

[Masahiro]

I thought there were tons of thread on this, maybe they were deleted during the "clean up". :ermm:

my opinion is the following:

1)be a good motodachi in kirikaeshi,

2)you have to be able to do decent tobikomi doh, then you move onto doing successful men nuki doh, if you can do these two then try kaeshi doh

3)people say "don't wait", i say "it depends" on your opponent's style of men uchi. Against beginner's "nice big text book, weird timing men uchi", you'll have to wait, but against someone who likes to do sashi men, you don't wait. So it all depends, either way, i just know your "kaeshi" movement has to be faster than your opponent's ability to draw his left foot up to his right food. hope that helps,

[Trent]

I think that the big thing that you need to focus on is making your opponent cut men. this means that you are ready to cut and not reacting to the cut (see Eiga vs. Miyazaki in 1999 I think it was)

[foundinsea]

If you haven't gotten to that point where you can use seme to force an attack, waiting works. However, the thing to consider is that this waza is more an offensive waza (at least I think so) whereby you are moving forward while doing it. Basically, you "see" the men attack while you are applying seme and move to parry and counter in response. It's not easy to get this one down - something I'm still learning. In all the attempts I've made at it, I've only ever once received a complement from a sensei for a smooth attack. Essentially the movement of the waza has to flow and you can't really do that while waiting as you are more likely to end up doing a 2-motion waza attack rather than a smoother 1 motion attack.

Try to keep your wrists nice and flexible and don't grip with your right hand as it will slow down your movement and you'll over-swing by pushing with your your right hand rather than pulling with your left.

Our senior sensei showed us a nice "trick" to make the do cut easier - as you parry the men cut, slide your left hand up the shinai handle to meet your right hand and perform your do cut as you fumikomi to the right. This makes it easier for your hands to clear your opponent's body (and make that 45degree angle downward cut) - remember you and he/she are moving forward at the same time.

[The great I AM]

Something I used to was duck under the shinai when trying to do it, because for ages I had this idea of kaeshi dou as being used to protect me then attack, which is just wrong. It took me ages to figure out that you still need to go forwards (in some fashion or another) in order to get this technique to work properly. Just remember that it's not and never will be a block.

[Koki]

It's a men-nuki-dou in delay... :D

[Usagi San]

One thing my sensei always told us about men-kaeshi-do is to DON'T think of the kaeshi-do part as a one-two type of movement, but rather think of it as one.

[Chaby]

As mentioned above, you need to push him to go for men using seme. You can also wait,but it's weakening your chances for ippon.
Think of it as of debana-kote.It doesn't really work if it's a reflex answer on a already commenced attack.
But if you lure him to attack, you got him even before he started and it will be a nice clean cut that you prepared for an ippon.
Something shimpans like dearly.
Another example of that "win first, strike later" thingy... ;)

As for sheer mechanics,
People often make a huuuuge mistake by blocking (again, as stated above), and they tend to make it even worse by doing so above their head.
The contact should be in front of you.
Not sure if I could explain well with poor English dictionary, but here goes:
Remember when you hold your shinai as motodachi for kiri-kaeshi?
From that point extend your hands forward something like kamae against jodan.The moment the aite's shinai make contact with yours, just pull your left hand down.
Not with shoulders or waist, just your left hand pulling the shinai down ( naturally the right one is still on shinai ). It will naturally land on Do and you'll remain in center. If you use the right hand it will land to high and aite will curse you for day or two...
Well,,, this is what works for me...
;)

[rainmaker]

I have gathered bunch of Men-Kaeshi-Do waza video that was excuted by 8th dan & 7th dan senseis. Watch their foot. Before they excute kaeshi waza, they do seme and make your opponents come to you with men. As my sensei told me kaesh was is not reaction waza.. It is another form of offensive waza. As other sempai mentioned earlier, you need to work on your seme to make this waza successful.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=175M3Oe-d1M

[Scharnhorst]

2)you have to be able to do decent tobikomi doh, then you move onto doing successful men nuki doh, if you can do these two then try kaeshi doh

Why the need of a good tobikomi do? We don´t use to pratice tobikomi-do here, but we do a lot of men-kaeshi-do.

[Masahiro]

same reason why we learn how to crawl, before learning how to walk, which in turn leads us to knowing how to run.


but this is just my theory, it's not the only way, certainly not the best way. just my way.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why tobikomi doh? Because you need to be able to hit the doh before you can use it as part of an oji-waza. Why learn tobikomi-men before men-kaeshi-men? Same thing.

[Kintaro]

Sorry for the ignorance, but how does tobikomi do look like?

[JSchmidt]

Sorry for the ignorance, but how does tobikomi do look like?

It's your standard do-uchi.

[Scharnhorst]

It's your standard do-uchi.

So that's the confusion. I´ve learned that "do" strike is the standard do-uchi! Tobikomi-do for me, as was told for me, is a do strike passing by our left, or the right side of the receiving aite, also using left foot in advance to do fumikomi. We don´t use "tobikomi-men" term also, just "men". Is that weird? Because sounds weird to me now.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Tobokomi refers to the jumping footwork, not to which side you pass the aite on. It's used somewhat interchangeably with fumikomi by most people, but there is a slight difference between the two terms which escapes me at the moment. There was a discussion a while back about this.

As an aside, if you pass to your left (aite's right) there is no need to use the left foot for fumikomi. Just fumikomi as normal. The only difference between going right and going left is the placement of your foot on fumikomi. To pass to your left, step more or less in line with your opponent's right foot, to go right (what most people consider the normal way) then step on a line maybe 30 degrees off centre. In either case, the monouchi hits the left side (aite's right) of the doh.

Now if you are talking about hitting the other side of the doh (your right, aite's left) and then moving left, then this is called gyaku-doh. You can use left or right foot for fumikomi but most people are more comfortable with the right foot.

[Kintaro]

Oh, thank you guys, I was confused about it.I thought it's somekind of oji waza or similar.I'm used to it as Do uchi and gyaku do.

[atgm]

Neil, I'm not sure if this is the difference you meant or if it's a different usage entirely, but my sensei seems to use fumikomi (and the action of doing so) to refer to the step/leap by the front foot, whereas tobikomi (and the action of doing so) refers to using the step/leap to continue past the opponent, rather than stopping for taiatari.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Fumikomi is the action of stomping on the floor. Tobikomi refers to the action of jumping in for the attack, which of course results in fumikomi. So technically fumikomi-men could be done from very close in with no jump. But many people say fumikomi-men to mean the basic, step in from your uchi-ma, stomp on the floor as you hit men, carry on through or into your opponent.

Tobikomi-men could result in carrying past your opponent, or it could result in taiatari, it really depends on the situation after the hit.

Here's a post (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29455&postcount=15) that does some more clarification.

If you search for fumikomi you will find several good threads where technique and terminology have been hashed out.

[ben]

I have gathered bunch of Men-Kaeshi-Do waza video that was excuted by 8th dan & 7th dan senseis. Watch their foot. Before they excute kaeshi waza, they do seme and make your opponents come to you with men. As my sensei told me kaeshi is not reaction waza... It is another form of offensive waza. As other sempai mentioned earlier, you need to work on your seme to make this waza successful.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=175M3Oe-d1M

This applies to every single kendo waza.

b

[Bokushingu]

I have gathered bunch of Men-Kaeshi-Do waza video that was excuted by 8th dan & 7th dan senseis. Watch their foot. Before they excute kaeshi waza, they do seme and make your opponents come to you with men. As my sensei told me kaesh was is not reaction waza.. It is another form of offensive waza. As other sempai mentioned earlier, you need to work on your seme to make this waza successful.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=175M3Oe-d1M

In addition to what you posted, my Sempai also told me during waza practice of this waza & other Oji waza that I as a motodachi must react to the seme & come 100% as if I'm in a match and not kowing the opponent is using a Oji waza--not just go on my own...for accurate practice.

I guess this is what Chiba Sensei (http://www.dailymotion.com/related/x1p38d/video/x6dc47_chiba-senseis-oji-waza_sport?hmz=74616272656c61746564) is teaching in this video: using the Seme for the Oji & Shikake Waza

[Scharnhorst]

I know what is gyaku-do, but as I´ve said, the term tobikomi, or "jump in", wich I know the meaning now, is not used here, except for hitting do on aite's right side, but changing the stomping foot (to the left), as you start the movement. I´ll ask about it to my sensei. Even so, that's not used very often here. I´ll ask to another mates from here (Brazil) if their dojos use that distinction between "tobikomi" and ordinary "do" when calling kihon and waza.

From http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/j_e_dictionary.htm#t:
Tobi-komi-waza (n.) A technique using a jump forward to deliver a strike from a long distance and a firm stamping of the right foot.

[Scharnhorst]

except for hitting do on aite's right side, but changing the stomping foot (to the left), as you start the movement

and passing by the aite´s right, instead of cutting the aite´s do from his right to his left, so, it must be a very good hit, almost like gyaku-do. So, what that move is called for real out of here?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well the only thing I can think of is that when you pass on the left (aite's right), that action is typically pure shikake-waza, in other words you start that attack on your own initiative. But going through the other ("normal") way is usually oji-waza, either nuki-doh or kaeshi-doh. So maybe that's why going left is called tobikomi-doh in your dojo. I'm just guessing at this point.

[Curtis]

Fumikomi is the action of stomping on the floor. Tobikomi refers to the action of jumping in for the attack, which of course results in fumikomi. So technically fumikomi-men could be done from very close in with no jump. But many people say fumikomi-men to mean the basic, step in from your uchi-ma, stomp on the floor as you hit men, carry on through or into your opponent.

Tobikomi-men could result in carrying past your opponent, or it could result in taiatari, it really depends on the situation after the hit.

Here's a post (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29455&postcount=15) that does some more clarification.

If you search for fumikomi you will find several good threads where technique and terminology have been hashed out.



Definition from AJKF Dictionary


Fumi-kiru, To kick forcefully off the floor so that the body moves quickly. In kendo the foot which kicks off the floor when moving the body is called fumi-kiri-ashi. The motion of kicking forcefully off the floor with the fumikiri-ashi is called the fumi-kiri-dosa. Fumi-kiri is the noun form.




Fumi-komu, To stamp on the floor with the front foot so as to move the body stably when striking. The foot which stamps on the floor with the entire sole is called the fumi-komi-ashi. The series of motions from stamping to pulling up the back foot quickly and moving the body forward with okuri-ashi is called the fumi-komi-dosa. Fumi-komi is the noun form.




Interestingly, the AJKF dictionary does not have tobikomi in it.




If you watch the Special Selection Waza video, you will see all different kinds of methods for performing kaeshi doh.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks, Marsten-sensei.

[Curtis]

Thanks, Marsten-sensei.

I do not know if you have the Special Selections video, but it is well worth watching.

You see the great variety of techniques in the kaeshi. Varies from catching it very high at the forehead to right out front at the chest level. Virtually in all cases they hold their ground, kill the men waza then cut the doh. You see a couple that start to move forward during the block. Generally in the video the hit is about halfway up the shinai. This is something I was told at a seminar by the AJKF sensei that is acceptable for kaeshi doh.

I have been working at catching it at about chest level, keeping the hands out front and a very tight swing. I have to say it has been working well for me. I use the tight swing with standard doh as well. I have video for hachidan shinsa preparation I have been studying and the sensei does his doh in this way.

Catching it up at the head has had very limited success for me.

[Masahiro]

Thanks for the knowledge Curtis Sensei.