Last Legend swords for Iaido??

[Colin_Spencely]

Has anyone used a Last Legend katana for Iaido? They look like they are wicked cutters, but I was wondering what the balance is like for Iaido.

[Dr. Hellsing]

what is the Last Legend katana for iaido?

[Colin_Spencely]

what is the Last Legend katana for iaido?
Well, Last Legend is a company that produces sharpened swords made primarily for tameshigiri. Their web page can be found at:

http://www.imperialweapons.com/oriental/swords/find_out.html

They look to be a very solid purchase and I was wondering if anyone had tried them yet for Iaido.

[Will]

uh...why do you want a sharpened iai? you might hurt someone and stuff...

[Halcyon]

Well, Last Legend is a company that produces sharpened swords made primarily for tameshigiri. Their web page can be found at:

http://www.imperialweapons.com/oriental/swords/find_out.html

They look to be a very solid purchase and I was wondering if anyone had tried them yet for Iaido.

colin,

i haven't had any first-hand experience with last legend swords, but be aware that swords made for tameshigiri are often heavier than iaito and the balance tends to be further toward the kissaki. so if you're looking for a sword for day-to-day iai practice, it might not be a good idea (especially if you haven't used a shinken for iai practice before).

fyi, there are other companies that make 'steel iaito' such as www.swordstore.com. they're not called shinken because they weren't made by recognized japanese smiths. might be good for comparison.

[Raiza]

Has anyone used a Last Legend katana for Iaido? They look like they are wicked cutters, but I was wondering what the balance is like for Iaido.

Colin, if you don't mind my asking, are you new to iaido? If so, talk to your sensei FIRST about what sort of sword would be best for you. Many beginners from the iaido part of my dojo start with a bokken in a plastic saya (one third down the page) (http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_stdweapons.htm) and then graduate to an iaito, a sword with a beveled edge but a sharp point. You can also save yourself serious $$$ as your sensei can let you know if there's anyone around who wishes to part with an iaito you can use.

I've promised myself to wait until I attain shodan in kendo (2004, damnit!) before taking up MJER iai, but when I do I will start with a simple white oak wooden bokken with saya as the sensei approves of this approach. If iai doesn't work out for me, I'm not out a lot of money. If it works out and my sensei says it's ok, I can then get a nice iaito in time for my ikkyu grading.

If I'm completely mistaken and you are an accomplished student and you're looking for quality iaito or cutting swords listed as "Steel Iaito That Cut", Nosyuiaido (http://www.swordstore.com) is very well-recommended, here in KW and certainly among the iaido practitioners in Central Canada. I cannot comment personally on Last Legend or Nosyuiaido's quality but the website you've provided has some serious alarm bells going off in my head. Especially this sentence:
"Before we go any further, a reminder that these swords are designed for one purpose and one purpose only--to help you win at martial arts Goza cutting. " The only martial arts page I could find from Google that uses the term "Goza cutting" and "iaido" on the same page is from Ishi Yama Ryu (http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/tournament/natos99/rules.html), a "Battojutsu school", described on their page (http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/What-is-IshiYamaRyu.html) as..
"Ishi Yama Battojutsu Schools of Japanese style swordsmanship is a uniquely American expression of Japanese sword style in traditional fashion."
No links to any national federations are provided, but a note from the US Sword Federation is provided. More alarm bells.

If you wanted a cutting blade for tameshigiri from Nosyuiaido, you can get a sizeable discount if you choose one of the in stock steel cutting iaito (http://www.swordstore.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00327.4.1283435509026871902) instead of custom ordering, but it depends on what comes in. They also have some in-stock regular iaito (http://www.swordstore.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00327.7.2893728910226871902) you can choose from, depending upon availablility.

[roar]

Has anyone used a Last Legend katana for Iaido? They look like they are wicked cutters, but I was wondering what the balance is like for Iaido.

Try swordforum.com, there has been lots of talk about ll katana. I do not think the fittings looks strong enough for hard and regular iaido-practise. Ans that is what you want a sword for, right?!!! ;)
For iai, If i was to buy a sword over the net, I would also use a well renowned store like swordstore. I am getting more and more picky, so these days I would never buy a sword without trying it anyway. If they are good cutters as you say, they may be to tip-heavy for iaido, but that is also matter of personal taste.

[HEIJO SHIN]

I have just looked on their web site and I must say it impressed me. They offer a money back guarantee if you break the blade, and at the price they look the real thing.
If I were in the market for another cutting sword, this one would be on my shortlist.

[Prof.Wizard]

Last Legend site says about their 400 series: "We're not saying that the 400 Series are the best katanas in the world. In fact, we and Last Legend both agree that if you want the absolute best, you should buy a Howard Clark L6 katana, we can say that and we don't even sell his swords."

Is the L6 a kind of Űber-Katana? Excuse my simplified thinking, I thought the best swordsmiths were Japanese. Howard Clark sounds American... :rolleyes:
And if it is the best, why? Materials? Cutting? Balance? Weight?

[Prof.Wizard]

So far I've been looking, this Howard Clark L6 katana is way the most expensive from newly-forged katanas... If the "what you give is what you take" aphorism works, then it must be surely a nice one to have.

[Ronin055]

Hello all.

My name is Keven Cecil and Im a sword tester for Last Legend. I found this thread by accident and have since found that there may be a few questions here that I can answer.

First of all the balance is supurb on the LL swords. Very simular to Iaito.

Every LL sword I have handled is an excellent cutter. Unless I have damaged it already. (grin)

The president of LL likes to say Performance over beauty. The primary concerns for LL products is that they function well. And that they do. But they are not the pretiest swords on the market just yet. But they are working on that.

One reason that LL uses the term Goza is because a few years ago they were associeated with Ishiyama Ryu, and Mr Russel McCartney. So thats where the president got that term. Im trying to teach him to say Tatami or Tameshigiri.. but so far no luck.

I teach Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu here in Reno Nevada. Myself and my students test the swords for Last Legend and offer our input. My website is here (http://www.whiteherondojo.net) if you would like to see what we are all about.

I do not want to impose, but I have a good deal of first hand on these swords if you have any questions.

Also I have lots of other swords to compare to, Cold Steel Katana, My tozando Iaito, several different Paul Chen, and so on. I dont want to push LL on anybody, but I would love to answer questions if you have them.

[bluemax_1]

Ahhh... someone who has actually had firsthand experience with some of these non-nihonto. Hopefully you can satisfy my curiosity. The only Nihonto that I truly desire are all in the $10k and up price range and unfortunately there are other things at the moment to spend that amount on.

It would seem that both the Paul Chen folded steel blades like the Tiger, Kami and Orchid and the Last legend Dragon and Bear series end up roughly the same in retail pricing, i.e. about $1k. What are your opinions in comparing them for Tameshigiri? Perhaps you could give me your experiences in the areas of cutting ability, durability, balance, quality of the fittings and how well the swords are put together with respect to specific swords from both manufacturers? You could also comment on the appearance of the swords but that is secondary to the cutting performance. Any info that might help in deciding if these are worthwile options wuld be greatly appreciated, otherwise I may just have to wait till such time as I am able to acquire a Nihonto.

I also apologize to the person who began this thread as this has little to do with iaido, however since it is a thread about Last Legend katana and the company does emphasize the cutting ability of its swords, that is the area I am most curious of. BTW, also for the initiator of this thread, were you perhaps aware that Last Legend has begun production of Iaito? As stated on their site, these are swords which have the same handling characteristics (weight/balance) of their cutting swords but have a rounded edge, are not forged or folded for cutting and are considerably cheaper than their Tameshigiri swords.

[cdetalente]

http://bugei.com/index.htm

[cdetalente]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2227168335&category=43338&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Dan Shea]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2227168335&category=43338&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBWA%3AIT&rd=1
Any ebay person selling a "samurai" sword, located in HK or China is usually selling junk. They artificially age the fittings and the sword is most definitely not a nihonto of any kind.

Bugei is a reputable site for swords. They deal with Paul Chen and his Hanwei forge, but they perform stringent quality control checks on any sword they sell. They also sell Howard Clark's work which, while being expensive, is top quality work.

I've recently purchased my iaito and my wife's iaito from bugei and I should receive them on Monday. I'll post a review if you're interested.

I hope that helps.

[cdetalente]

Yes, let me know how they are when you get them.
Thanks,
Chad

[Dan Shea]

Yes, let me know how they are when you get them.
Thanks,
Chad
Chad,

I received the Iaito today. Very nice! The balance is spot on (COB is a few inches north of the tsuba) and the fittings are all very tight and in excellent condition.

I did the first kata of Omori Ryu Iai a few times.
I like the sword alot better than my bokuto for Iai. What a difference! The weight and handling is like night and day, the fact there is actually a saya helps noto as well.

I'll be taking it to the dojo for the first time tomorrow, so I'll see how I hold up using this much heavier and radically different balance. I have a suspicion my shoulders are going to be sore. :D

I'd definitely recommend Bugei to anyone interested in a quality Iaito.
The price is litte more than some of the competitiors offerings, but the quality is definitely there.

[cdetalente]

Dan, Thanks for the info. I hope it works out for you. I just ordered a Paul Chen Hanwei Katana. It is on back order for two weeks but I can wait. I needed a good cutting sword. Do you know much about Cold Steel swords?

Thanks,
Chad

[Dan Shea]

I'm not familiar with Cold Steel Swords although I have heard of them.
I did order a Last Legend Dragon for tameshigiri, when I am ready for that sort of thing. :D

Having finally gotten my iaito and used it yesterday at the dojo I can safely say that I am absolutely not ready for anything with an edge on it. I didn't do anything too stupid yesterday, but my technique is so far from good the light from the star good will never reach me. :D

I just basically kept doing my first iaido kata over and over because the mechanics of the nukitsuke and noto are completely different once a saya is involved. I had been studying my first month and a half with a bokuto and the differences are night and day. It's like going back to the first day all over again, but in a good way. :)

What style do you study? I'm currently studying Omori Ryu and enjoying it immensely. Perhaps later [much later!] on I will start learning Mugai Iai Ryu Hyoho.

Have a great day!

[cdetalente]

"Dragon Folded Blade katana, 8192 Layers and Silk wrapped LL410"
That is a nice sword! That would have no problem cutting Goza!!! :) I orderd the Cold Steel DVD from their web site it was free. It shows how sturdy their blades are.
Here is the link http://www.coldsteel.com/moreproof.html

I will let you know when I get my Paul Chen.

[hyouriittai]

"Dragon Folded Blade katana, 8192 Layers and Silk wrapped LL410"
That is a nice sword! That would have no problem cutting Goza!!! :) I orderd the Cold Steel DVD from their web site it was free. It shows how sturdy their blades are.
Here is the link http://www.coldsteel.com/moreproof.html

I will let you know when I get my Paul Chen.

I don't know. I've run into alot of those Cold Steel swords on Ebay, just browsing. I've never handled one, but for some reason something doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it's because they make a double edged katana. Anyway, Paul Chen blades don't seem that bad. I have one, myself, but I've never been instructed in tameshigiri, so as for cutting, I haven't got a clue. The fittings seem to be pretty nice, real ray skin same, and though artificial leather, the tsukaito is very neatly and tightly wrapped.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, though, eh?

[Ronin055]

Hey.. this forum doesnt E-mail you and tell you that youve gotten a reply. I was beginning to think that no one cared. :)

So I apoligize for my delay in replying. Ill just have to drop in and check more often I guess.



It would seem that both the Paul Chen folded steel blades like the Tiger, Kami and Orchid and the Last legend Dragon and Bear series end up roughly the same in retail pricing, i.e. about $1k. What are your opinions in comparing them for Tameshigiri?
I think that the PC blades have a little influence from Bugei in them, in that they have a touch more Niku in the blade. LL swords are more thin and designed to have really steep cutting angles designed to facilitate ease of cutting while still being robust.



Perhaps you could give me your experiences in the areas of cutting ability, durability, balance, quality of the fittings and how well the swords are put together with respect to specific swords from both manufacturers?
I think both manufactureres swords are fine. I personally use LL alot more as I have several of them that I have recieved for testing long term. I have never had a problem with a LL sword becoming loose or have one with a bad fitting saya.


You could also comment on the appearance of the swords but that is secondary to the cutting performance.
Wow, you almost quoted LL there. Traditon and appearance are great. But performance is always first in LL's eyes. The PC stuff I cant really comment on, because I've seen some really nice stuff, and some really crappy quality controll. Where as with LL, Im kinda in on what they are doing. So I know what their quality controll standards are, and so forth. And its a lot tighter than the PC stuff. But still the koshire are not on par 100% with PC at this time. This is one thing that LL is working on and it IS getting better. Its just that they set out to make agressive cutters, and then make em pretty. Theyve got the agressive cutter part down pat, now its onto the pretty part.. well, I think they are pretty,, just not "freakin' beautiful" yet. But theyre gettin there.


I also apologize to the person who began this thread as this has little to do with iaido, however since it is a thread about Last Legend katana and the company does emphasize the cutting ability of its swords, that is the area I am most curious of. BTW, also for the initiator of this thread, were you perhaps aware that Last Legend has begun production of Iaito? As stated on their site, these are swords which have the same handling characteristics (weight/balance) of their cutting swords but have a rounded edge, are not forged or folded for cutting and are considerably cheaper than their Tameshigiri swords.
Thats all true. And at our dojo we helped pioneer the LL iaito. I think that its really great that you can, from one source, get an iaito and a shinken that match in weight, balance, and (if you choose) appearance. Thus making your training sword and your cutting sword essensially the same beast.

Well, again I apoligize for taking so long to get back over here.

I hope I answered your questions well enough. Let me know if there is anything else I can answer. Ill drop back in more often now and take a look. Promise.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Is the L6 a kind of Űber-Katana? Excuse my simplified thinking, I thought the best swordsmiths were Japanese. Howard Clark sounds American... :rolleyes:
And if it is the best, why? Materials? Cutting? Balance? Weight?

I am no expert, but since nobody else is answering this I will put forth the bit that I know, which is mostly from an article in Blade magazine a few months back. As far as being an Uber-katana, I think the answer is pretty much yes, it is. At least one person was quoted in the article as saying that Clarks L6 blades are <flame suit on> BETTER than any produced by the ancient Japanese smiths. According to the article, Clark has figured out how to get a steel crystalline structure called bainite throughout the blade which is something nobody (including the ancient Japanese smiths) ever figured out how to do before, it involves molten salt baths and secret proprietary techniques.

<opinion>I fully expect some people will scream bloody murder at the suggestion that the old smiths have been surpassed, but they didn't exactly have molten salt baths laying around back then, or the modern understanding of microscopic crystalline steel structure, or the down-to-0.001% control of alloy metals in the raw steel, it's not like we haven't learned anything about metallurgy in the last 500 years, it just doesn't get applied to swords much. After all, taking 25 dollars a ton out of what it costs to make steel for car fenders is going to mean more money in a day than all the swords sold in a year in the world. <\opinion>

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Don't know how to put a link to another forum in, but I ran across some more info about Howard Clark in Iaido>Greatest Sword Makers, where he is talked about as a modern maker of note. Also in there is an link to an article about him.

http://swordforum.com/summer99/howardclark.html

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Maybe it's because they make a double edged katana.

Finally had a reference, a computer, and a bit of time all easily available at once :rolleyes:

There is historical precedence for this, though they are rare. The example I am looking at is a sword in the Imperial collection called "Kogarasu-maru" which is attributed to Amakuni. The book states that one theory is that it was presented to Emperor Kanmu (781-806) which I mention only for a rough date of forging. It's on page 11 of "Japanese Swords" by Nobuo Ogasawara. ISBN 4-586-54022-2 C0172, which may or may not be easily available, I bought it at one of those little tourist trap shops in Narita airport several years ago :smiley: .

[iaiärintesjuk]

Howard Clark is one of the best modern swordsmiths. He primarily makes Japanese-style blades. Currently he offers a choice of either 1086 or L-6 steel. The 1086 gives the customer excellent value for money, and should suffice for most people (martial artists and collectors alike). The L-6 blades are described as being "virtually indestructible", and are specifically designed to excel in cutting (tameshigiri). It is what Howard came up with when a friend asked him to make a sword that would not bend and take a set. A DVD has just been released that documents the amazing qualities of Howard's unique L-6 bainite-martensite swords. You can read about it on www.mvforge.com (http://www.mvforge.com) , Howard Clark's website.

[chidokan]

being a sad engineering type I can see where these swords are coming from in respect to the materials properties and crystalline structure. As with most things a sword has a trade off between the properties, hard...but not brittle, etc...To achieve some of these at optimum values also requires a lot of testing. The test showing the sword being bent sideways is a bit weird (I would worry if I had that happen!) but I would assume a lot of other tests have been carried out, especially back to back comparisons with other swords cutting abilities, impact testing (not just on the edge)(to represent swords coming into contact with each other as well as stresses involved in cutting) etc. Thats what I would do anyway if I had the opportunity to make my own....I feel a project coming on....small forge at back of house.... hmmm...

[Zaphiel]

you don't use sharp katanas in iaido, do you?
I wanna start iaido next week....but I don't wanna loose legs!

[Bleda]

When you start you will most likely be using a wooden sword. From there you move up to a iaito which is an unsharpened metal sword, then after you've become quite experienced you can use a live blade.

[chidokan]

how exactly did you intend to cut your own legs off then? I would have thought that quite difficult... :smiley:

[Zaphiel]

how exactly did you intend to cut your own legs off then? I would have thought that quite difficult... :smiley:hey...you don't know ME!!!!
I'm the master of disaster!!!
No harm is impossible for me!:wink:

[jerrycAZ]

I've been lurking for awhile, but registered today because I finally have something to add (post). I just ordered the LL MK-V (400-series) 4K folded Katana and Wakizashi from Al at Sword Armory. They're offering a special deal on in-stock LL swords.... buy Katana and get Wakizashi for only $287 (includes free shipping in 48-US). That's like a $200 savings.

Anyway, I've been wanting a set of LL swords for sometime, and this was the incentive I needed. Also, most places say 4-8 weeks delivery time.... I'll have mine in 3 days!!!! Just thought I pass the news along in case anyone else has been wanting a set of competition swords. I really like LL's, "you break it, we replace it," warranty. Admittedly, the LL swords are not as elegant as the better, simularly priced, Paul Chen swords. However, my motto is, "beauty is, as beauty does."

If you call, ask for Al and tell him Jerry sent you.

Here's the link: http://www.swordarmory.com/03kats/ll240field.html

[jerrycAZ]

My last post got nuked because it sounded too much like a commercial.... OK, it sounded exactly like a commercial. However, I was just very excited to share my finding a great deal on a set of 4K folded Last Legend swords I've been eyeing for a long time. It's the first time I've seen anyone discounting them. Anyway, I ordered mine yesterday (Tuesday) and should have them in hand Friday. I'll let you know if they live up to their reputation.

I also recently purchased a Kris Cutlery Wakizashi. It's a really nice piece, but of a more contemporary design.... well made, good balance and cuts very clean. The thing I like about Last Legend is the philosophy of sticking to traditional sword making techniques and design, "as long as it doesn't interfer with performance."

So, I won't mention any names this time. You'll have to do you own searching.