How would you define a McDojo (and a bad Sensei)?

[MartialArtsGirl]

Ok, I was reading something about that Allen Kilgore guy (and I can't seem to find any info about who exactly he is and what exactly he did) -and if anyone could let me know to satisfy my curosity that would be great.

But actually, what I am really curious about is this: How does everyone define a McDojo (and a bad Sensei?) I know that in some cases it's quite obvious- i.e. the person doesn't know Kendo (or the MA he/she is trying to teach), the person is trying to squeeze the students out of their money, etc. But are there other things too? How does charactor play into it? (if a person has a good moral charactor, trys to do right by his/her students and knows what he/she teaches, does that automatically disqualify him/her from running a McDojo?) Also do McDojos always have to be huge? What does a Kendo McDojo look like?

I know my school is quite awesome, but if it wasn't for this forum, I would probably have attended a McDojo. Maybe it would be helpful, especially for newbies, to really define that term and the signs and symptoms of that kind of thing...

Sometimes I wonder, if, depending on how you define the term "McDojo", would some people consider a non-traditional school to automatically be a McDojo? I also wonder... my old Kempo karate school had some amazing teachers, charactor wise. They were not saints, but they really cared about their students and often went above and beyond just teaching karate... they also taught self discipline, respect, etc. but they cared about their students in other little ways too. The school wasn't about the money, (the Senseis were actually quite poor, since they ran the dojo full time. But its what they loved to do so thats what they did, even though they could have easily done something else) But they were not traditional at all. And, I dont think there is any standardized form of Kempo in any absolute sense, but even so I wonder how it would compare to the more "traditional" dojos of Kempo. Does being non-traditional neccessarily make it a McDojo? Whatever the case, this school and the senseis there really did change my life in a good way, though.


Anyway, so all in all, what really makes a McDojo?

[Kapplow]

More than 3 patches on a uniform or anyone testing for their 3rd stripe camouflage belt.

[absenteekendoka]

A few tips on spotting a McDojo.

If the dojo is in the back of a convenience store and an angry little Korean man sceams "You look you BUY!" at you the minute you have a peek at the bogu next to the cheetos.

If the Sensei is a "10th dan Soke Grandmaster"

If the Sensei is a also a "Martial Arts hall of Fame" inductee.

If your Senseis name is Phil Wright or Al Kilgore.

If your Sensei is wearing high top Reeboks and a worn Karate Gi during practice.

Instead of Shinai your given wiffle ball bats.

If your sensei describes the nature of Budo and the movie Last Samurai in the same sentence.

:)

[absenteekendoka]

If Ilporko is one of your Sempai.......

[Abramo]

Is looking, primarily, for money and/or fame.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some warning signs:

- falsified/inflated instructor credentials
- guaranteed promotions (black belt in 2 years for X $)
- student contracts (must sign up for 1 year, etc)
- mandatory equipment purchase through club
- mandatory and frequent promotion tests for fees
- money-making schemes such as "black belt club", "red dragon club", etc
- beginners/kids classes taught by students
- many styles taught at same studio
- style made up by instructor after "many years of experience" etc ad nauseum
- hard sell on new students

[ilporko]

If Ilporko is one of your Sempai.......

Is that the best you can do???

I will be a sempai in two months' time in the dojang I train in which makes this worse. (I understrand that term to mean a student who helps lower level students in exchange for formal training and the satisfaction of helping lower level students.)

[Bucho]

Here's what wiki has to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo

[nodachi]

People can add to the definitions, but identifying a McDojo is kinda like that quote about making a definition separating art and porno, it's hard to define in words but you know it when you see it. I know it's vague, but McDojo tend to stand out pretty clearly with even a little exposure to real kendo.

[atgm]

Golden arches on the belt.

[kensenbatusaii]

A few tips on spotting a McDojo.

If the dojo is in the back of a convenience store and an angry little Korean man sceams "You look you BUY!" at you the minute you have a peek at the bogu next to the cheetos.

If the Sensei is a "10th dan Soke Grandmaster"

If the Sensei is a also a "Martial Arts hall of Fame" inductee.

If your Senseis name is Phil Wright or Al Kilgore.

If your Sensei is wearing high top Reeboks and a worn Karate Gi during practice.

Instead of Shinai your given wiffle ball bats.

If your sensei describes the nature of Budo and the movie Last Samurai in the same sentence.

:)



very very bad

stereotyping!!

:chinese::chinese::chinese:

[Josh Reyer]

In terms of bad Sensei claiming to teach "bujutsu", "kenjutsu" or the like: if that are at all cagey about their lineage, run, don't walk, away. If they say, "We don't give that information about because we are about training, not politics," what they are actually saying, "We are lying about everything." Any real teacher will happily provide the name of his teacher, and his teacher's teacher, back to the mainline of whatever ryu it is. Even off-shoots and splinter groups happily do this. Only the folks who make up crap are worried about detailing their lineage.

[Allan Yee]

For me, pseudo-history is one of the big hallmarks of McDojo; and one of the most insidious. Problem is, if you are a novice with no basis for comparison it's easy to blithely accept the stories of undocumented backwoods ninja whose battle-hardened legacy was inherited by some vague American Marine and brought back to the West especially for your edification. This leads to the tragic situation in which otherwise sensible and reasonable people vigorously and vociferously defend some patently senseless and unreasonable claims. For example, Samurang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurang).

That said, I think jodo is completely legit, even if the Gonnosuke-Musashi rematch story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muso_Gonnosuke#Seclusion.2C_Jojutsu_and_the_second _duel) is a bit sketchy. It's one of those case by case things.

Allan
Did I hit all the tropes?

[Fred27]

That said, I think jodo is completely legit, even if the Gonnosuke-Musashi rematch story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muso_Gonnosuke#Seclusion.2C_Jojutsu_and_the_second _duel) is a bit sketchy. It's one of those case by case things.



It helps to think that Shinto Muso ryu was created as a result of Muso Gonnosukes failure to defeat Musashi rather than the alleged victory over Musashi. :)

Anyhoo! An addition to the list of what comprises McDojo:
If yer sensei is a Ph.D in Martial Arts.

[futabachan]

If the Sensei is a "10th dan Soke Grandmaster"

...in his twenties.

[Koban]

or if they ask you to sign a contract in blood.. not fun.

[Josh Reyer]

or if they ask you to sign a contract in blood.. not fun.True, but then this is a feature of some very good schools, too...

[satsumaruma]

Some warning signs:

- falsified/inflated instructor credentials
- guaranteed promotions (black belt in 2 years for X $)
- student contracts (must sign up for 1 year, etc)
- mandatory equipment purchase through club
- mandatory and frequent promotion tests for fees
- money-making schemes such as "black belt club", "red dragon club", etc
- beginners/kids classes taught by students
- many styles taught at same studio
- style made up by instructor after "many years of experience" etc ad nauseum
- hard sell on new students

I think Neil has got the list down pretty well; I would add-

- instructors who cannot answer students questions and have no higher authority to turn to for the ones which are beyond their own understanding
- lack of depth of understanding about lineage/style
- Instructors who have to 'big themselves up'
- clubs who think new students are 'punch bags'
- clubs where students are left to themselves a lot once they have your money
- clubs that malign other martial arts/organisations to promote their own 'style'


Golden arches on the belt.

Superbly funny, posrep pour vous!

[futabachan]

- many styles taught at same studio


Several unrelated groups that just happen to share a space, OTOH, aren't necessarily a warning sign.

[Fred27]

Several unrelated groups that just happen to share a space, OTOH, aren't necessarily a warning sign.

Unless all styles are taught by the same teacher. :)

[Wraith]

Unless all styles are taught by the same teacher. :)

At the same time:wink:

[rfoxmich]

And the number one hint it's a McDojo:

Kata performed to music

[MartialArtsGirl]

I am just so glad that you guys helped me find a good dojo! (I would have gone to a McDojo if it wasn't for you guys!) thank you all!

[ScottUK]

And the number one hint it's a McDojo:

Kata performed to musicWaaaah I know someone who does this. You guys should have told me this earlier! :D:D:D

[TheWanderingEye]

And the number one hint it's a McDojo:

Kata performed to music
I've been told by a friend that there's an instructor in my university who does this during his lectures.

Also:
- Dragons and knockoff martial-arts paraphernalia decorated around the space
- Dude invites a bunch of breakdancers into the class do motivate/inspire students.
Seriously, we bboys aren't the fighting type, so I found it a little weird when we were asked.

[Andrew S]

- Black belts in kendo or koryu arts.
- Technicolor hakama
- Combinations of Japanese/Korean/Chinese vocabulary
- The founder has red curly hair, a red nose, and huge shoes
- Use of the word "samurai" in promotional material when what is taught is "derived from ...."
- The chief instructor makes St00pid Sensei look smart
- Questions about lineage are usually met with "Oh, yeah? Come and try us on the mat" or threats of legal action.
- They feature heavily in the "Baffling" and "Bad Budo" threads over on E-Budo.

[rainmaker]

What is the difinition of mcdojo to you ? I would assume almost 90% of dojos or dojangs are mcdojo based on Neil sensei's definition. His analyzing is pretty accurate and you should do your best to avoid them. However, it is very hard to find such quality dojo in USA. If you found one, then you are very lucky. I have even seen quality Kendo school sensei ran away with students monthly dues & federation membership dues(no it was not Kumdo school, it was Kendo dojo). All I can say is whatever you do, just enjoy it. Even if it is Mcdojo, have fun at what you do.

[H.Sandsleth]

I think Gendzwill sensei and Satsumaruma covers it. But when it comes to charging a bit of money, I don´t think it is necessarily a bad sign. Several legit dojos (not kendo) here offer private lessons, and if you want to train in the best places, you may have to pay more than average annually, you have to pay for tests/belts, buy gear through the dojo etc. Imho, for a dojo to be a McDojo there has to be a certain level of deception, whether it is charging money for nothing, covering up a non existent linage, or providing a training environment that is abusive but presented as "traditional", "character building" etc. You may say that commercializing the arts goes against the core of the arts, but at the same time you have to take a students wish to be the best they can be, into consideration.

[atgm]

Unless all styles are taught by the same teacher. :)

Though there are exceptions... my sensei teaches kendo, jodo, and iaido, all three of which are under ZNKR.

[ScottUK]

I think Fred was referring to the "we teach karate, MMA, kung fu, kendo, kobudo and Teh D34dly D34th P1nch" boys.

[kensenbatusaii]

Waaaah I know someone who does this. You guys should have told me this earlier! :D:D:D


you are not

saying it's you??

please don't!!


:chinese::chinese::chinese:

[ScottUK]

Go away, berk.

[Fred27]

I think Fred was referring to the "we teach karate, MMA, kung fu, kendo, kobudo and Teh D34dly D34th P1nch" boys.

Yep....or Niten Ichi ryu, shinto muso ryu, suio ryu, kendo, katori shinto ryu all under one Sensei.. *cough*

[ScottUK]

IPPON!!!

+rep for you.

[H.Sandsleth]

Naginata kata is done to music...

[ScottUK]

Which ryuha?

[Martch]

Which ryuha?

Hoki Cokey Ryu?

[atgm]

OH MAN A DEATH PINCH

Is this the one on the neck or the pelvic region?

[Kent Enfield]

Which ryuha?
Atarashii naginata (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=647&highlight=odori).

Every so often I get the desire to do naginata, but then I remember this fact, and the desire disappears instantly.

[ScottUK]

Ahh, that doesn't count... ;)

[Fred27]

*sigh*

How to Fight with a Katana Sword : How to Fight Four Opponents with a Katana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSGGKOFcgLM)

[futabachan]

*sigh*

How to Fight with a Katana Sword : How to Fight Four Opponents with a Katana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSGGKOFcgLM)

Weren't you around for the whole Trace Tew story several months ago? He turned up here on KWF, turned out to be a nice guy, and we hooked him up with a legitimate JSA dojo of some sort. I wonder how he's been doing.

[Fred27]

Weren't you around for the whole Trace Tew story several months ago? He turned up here on KWF, turned out to be a nice guy, and we hooked him up with a legitimate JSA dojo of some sort. I wonder how he's been doing.

I must have missed that...Or I've forgotten it. All I saw was the performance plus the tag "christian martialarts" and a deep sigh built up in me.

[still learning]

Hoki Cokey Ryu?

+rep! [if the system would allow]
Laughed a lot at this one........in fact, still giggling....

[satsumaruma]

+rep! [if the system would allow]
Laughed a lot at this one........in fact, still giggling....

he was talking about his own 'style'....poor Peter has got his work cut out for him in a couple of weeks time.

[michaelm]

Yep....or Niten Ichi ryu, shinto muso ryu, suio ryu, kendo, katori shinto ryu all under one Sensei.. *cough*

I believe Phil Relnick in our corner of the world has teaching licenses in both Shinto Muso Ryu (http://www.shinto-muso-ryu.org/) and Katori Shinto Ryu (http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/).

Interesting <tangentially related> interview of Relnick sensei from aikido journal
(http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=502)

[ScottUK]

Fred's post was a cheap shot (and good for him) about a certain person who teaches every koryu he possibly can, rather than at any particular ryuha.

[Andrew S]

... When the "sensei"
speaks in little
chunks that follow no
normal speech patterns

[pgsmith]

When the sensei goes onto on-line forums and posts long rambling tales full of pseudo-philosophical gibberish. :D

[JHusch]

Interesting <tangentially related> interview of Relnick sensei from aikido journal
(http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=502)



Diane mentioned that you had a fair amount of contact with Tomiki Sensei. Will you tell us how that came about?

I think I first met Tomiki Sensei at the Kodokan before I started studying at Waseda. He was big, not a monster, but he was tall. He had really big wrists, the bones were big. He was a solid man, very erect.

Sorry I had to let out a Peter Griffen Laugh :)

[pgsmith]

Truthfully, I would define a McDojo as any martial arts establishment that attempts to sanitize and package up martial arts for general consumption by the masses. It's not necessarily a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with a bunch of people spending money to learn "imitation martial arts" rather than sitting on their duffs watching the tube. These are people that would not attend a traditional martial arts dojo, so it doesn't really affect us. If they enroll their kids and have them working on their black belt in kurotty rather than playing video games, good for them! McDojo obviously fill a need in today's society, or there wouldn't be so many of them. Of course, that won't stop me from laughing at their YouTube goofiness. :) However, I don't begrudge them their existence. Helps keep some of the nut jobs from coming to me.

[Andrew S]

Bad sensei

Example #1
Claims to be the world champion in a no-rules fight which, although is supposed to attract the best fighters from even the outer planets, is in a secret location.
Is unable to produce any witnesses or film evidence.

Example #2
Was the sole student of a now deceased master (whom, incidently, no-one has ever heard of). Was awarded rank of samurai by the Japanese emperor. Does not speak any Japanese.

Example #3
After some years of training in a legitimate dojo decides to go independent. Suddenly increases in rank and skill, probably adding several other systems to their list of styles they have mastered.
Slags off their original teachers or senior students.

Example #4
Thinks that attending open seminars equates to mastery. Traces lineage via the most senior person they have ever trained under (even if it was only a single session). Claims to have access to secret documents.

Example #5
Trained under one of the above. Equates natural size and strength with martial skill. Usually claims to be highly skilled in arts they cannot even spell. Easily insulted, but laps up adoration. Likes to post videos on the internet.

[satsumaruma]

+rep! [if the system would allow]
Laughed a lot at this one........in fact, still giggling....


Bad sensei

Example #1
Claims to be the world champion in a no-rules fight which, although is supposed to attract the best fighters from even the outer planets, is in a secret location.
Is unable to produce any witnesses or film evidence.

Example #2
Was the sole student of a now deceased master (whom, incidently, no-one has ever heard of). Was awarded rank of samurai by the Japanese emperor. Does not speak any Japanese.

Example #3
After some years of training in a legitimate dojo decides to go independent. Suddenly increases in rank and skill, probably adding several other systems to their list of styles they have mastered.
Slags off their original teachers or senior students.

Example #4
Thinks that attending open seminars equates to mastery. Traces lineage via the most senior person they have ever trained under (even if it was only a single session). Claims to have access to secret documents.

Example #5
Trained under one of the above. Equates natural size and strength with martial skill. Usually claims to be highly skilled in arts they cannot even spell. Easily insulted, but laps up adoration. Likes to post videos on the internet.

Wanted to posrep you for this but system won't let me!
sorry, owe you

[ThePoetWarrior]

if they have a merchandise stand at their dojo and their most selling product is a self made instructional video which the sensei "advises" you to purchase on the way out after the first practice

[Bokushingu]

When the sensei goes onto on-line forums and posts long rambling tales full of pseudo-philosophical gibberish. :D

Dammmm A Devastating Left-Right to the chin! lol

[Fred27]

Bad sensei


Example #3
After some years of training in a legitimate dojo decides to go independent. Suddenly increases in rank and skill, probably adding several other systems to their list of styles they have mastered.
Slags off their original teachers or senior students.


How the hell did you discovery my secret plan? :eek:

[Ookami7]

Sorry Fred, that plan has been known for years, nothing new. We all have a crap load of contingency plans incase you try to implment that one. Better luck next time though lol.

[atgm]

Not necessarily a McDojo thing, but something that's always bugged me a bit... when the instructor insists that you call him "Sensei Bud" or "Sensei Bill" or something.

[ScottUK]

Example #1
Claims to be the world champion in a no-rules fight which, although is supposed to attract the best fighters from even the outer planets, is in a secret location.
Is unable to produce any witnesses or film evidence.

Example #2
Was the sole student of a now deceased master (whom, incidently, no-one has ever heard of). Was awarded rank of samurai by the Japanese emperor. Does not speak any Japanese.Wow. Karl Beattie (http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/311/311429_meet_the_real_last_samurai.html) meets two of your criteria... ;)

[satsumaruma]

Not necessarily a McDojo thing, but something that's always bugged me a bit... when the instructor insists that you call him "Sensei Bud" or "Sensei Bill" or something.

Especially if their name is actually Dave!:rolleyes:

[absenteekendoka]

Especially if their name is actually Dave!:rolleyes:

....and his dojo is his Moms mini-van, parked at the local Wal-Mart.

[David G]

Wow. Karl Beattie (http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/311/311429_meet_the_real_last_samurai.html) meets two of your criteria... ;)

This Samurai ship he talks about . . . does he sail often?

[Fred27]

Wow. Karl Beattie (http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/311/311429_meet_the_real_last_samurai.html) meets two of your criteria... ;)


Quote from URL:

"Karl joked: "I feel sorry for my daughter's first boyfriend when she brings him home!""

I think her first boyfriend will feel sorry for her father once he starts cracking that samurai-story. :P

[Andrew S]

Example #6
Claims to teach a little-known system involving nerve strikes. Starts to attract a large following. Teaching moves away from basics and kata to "energy projection" and poses lifted from the Dragonball comic series.

Example #7
Claims to have a complete understanding of the Gorin no sho and publishes a new "translation" of it, even though the master in question cannot even make a simple phrase in modern Japanese.

Example #8
Claims to be the reincarnation of a Shaolin monk. Teaches what is supposed to be a lost ancient martial system. The person in question goes by some mystical-sounding Asian name. His legal name is probably more like "Jeff".

Example #9
Teaches what is supposed to be a very rare and ancient art from Africa/Israel/Iceland/Pre-Columbian North America/Blackpool. Is never able to provide any history of the art itself, just mentions some old chieftains. Surprisingly, the art is uncannily similar to taekwondo...

[yohed55]

When I first started Kendo we trained at a McDojo. There was weapons and other ninja paraphernalia everywhere. The owner of the club only cared about money but luckily he didn't teach the Kendo class. They frowned upon ordering equipment from online retailers and constantly offered me their low quality equipment for inflated prices.

And also, if you see a "Martial Arts" building at a strip mall.... it's a McDojo

[ScottUK]

Example #6
Claims to teach a little-known system involving nerve strikes. Starts to attract a large following. Teaching moves away from basics and kata to "energy projection" and poses lifted from the Dragonball comic series.
For your entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSzSflkns8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

If this actually worked, it could revolutionise kendo. :D

[David G]

Love the way it only seems to work on his own students . .

Also this quote from someone who has viewed the clip:

"Its a martial art that tells you that you can win without any kind of physical work, so its pretty much a martial art for fat asses in general." (Italics mine)



. . . . if that's true I may be giving him a call!! :grin:

[Attica]

Not to pile on but this one is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I



For your entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSzSflkns8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

If this actually worked, it could revolutionise kendo. :D

[David G]

Not to pile on but this one is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

ow! ooh! Ow! ("Why aren't my techniques working?!") OWW!! etc :D

[nico storm]

"Karl had been in talks with Tom Cruise's production company concerning their feature film (Last Samurai), but he had to turn down the opportunity of working with the Hollywood blockbuster because he was already committed to Living TV's 'Most Haunted' show."

Well can see how hanging around in dank and dark building in Essex at 3am in the morning pretending to hear ghosts would be more appealing than starring in a multi-million pound Hollywood blockbuster (that doesn't also feature Yvette Fielding). No you completely made the correct choice there!:rolleyes:

[nico storm]

Here's a link to Karl Beattie's (Im assuming voice over, unless thats what he looks like) other claim to fame*:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSdrrm-L_sk


*Disclaimer! Information taken from wikipedia.

[Toecutter]

Not to pile on but this one is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
The force was not strong with that one. Poor old guy got his hat handed to him, was that crack the sound of his teeth? The MMA guy didn’t look too sympathetic, I wonder if he got his 5k.

[MartialArtsGirl]

For your entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSzSflkns8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

If this actually worked, it could revolutionise kendo. :D



hmmm....yeeeeaaaahhhh....


not impressed. not even impressed with their "regular" martial arts skills. Flashy isn't it? I think, even their "non-magical" punches look weak!

[satsumaruma]

.....

Example #9
Teaches what is supposed to be a very rare and ancient art from Africa/Israel/Iceland/Pre-Columbian North America/Blackpool. Is never able to provide any history of the art itself, just mentions some old chieftains. Surprisingly, the art is uncannily similar to taekwondo...


More excellent examples but will note that Blackpool is a well noted hotbed for the Development of Martial ways and must not be mocked by the unbelievers and the unclean.

This noble and ancient Ryu-ha have developed over the centuries a style which has come to be known as the "Pisto Assa Ratto Ryu" and its' exponents are now known as the "ra-ger rowts".


Their finely honed skills include..

- Shaving their heads
- growing a single eyebrow to sit over both eyes
- to speak like Jamaicans even if they are from Carlisle, Leeds or Harrogate
- to each drink a full bottle of Smirnoff vodka prior to consuming severalteen pints of lager
- to be able to continue drinking maximum strength lager even after competing with friends in who can hurl the contents of their stomachs the furthest
- to eat several pickled eggs during the evening leaving bits of egg in the lager as they drink
- to be able to find the courage to snog the ugliest, fattest girl in the north east, preferably with the worst case of halitosis (fortunately, there are a high number of such ladies from Liverpool and Manchester who frequent Blackpool)
- and last but not least, to be able to disappear at the end of the evening without trace ( albeit with the help of the local constabulary).

If you wish to join these mighty artisans you must devote yousrelf to a lifestyle which will help you attain the above skills. They are designed to be arduous and require years of intense training and dedication to the cause.

You must;

- sit in front of the telly all day every day from the age of 1
- smoke from the age of 2
- not refuse the alcohol your mam buys for you when you are 6 ( and must never ever say you want lemonade for fear of being called a poof)
- by the age of 20 you must have a belly which doubles your weight
- if you are not already called Davey, Stewey, Eddie, Stevey, or Big Matt it is probably best to change your name to one of these (even if you are a girl)
- tattoos are a must, but must not be artistic in any way at all and one must say 'MAM'
- must not be employed unless it is as 'Door Security'
- must support your local football team (which must be Man U, Everton, Leeds, Chelsea, Millwall, Celtic, Rangers or the Dog and Duck no matter where you live)
- must refer to women as birds, beuas, skirt and tarts.
- and finally, you must still live at home with your parents cause you are really just a pathetic tw@.

[futabachan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSzSflkns8

That cinder block break is just brutal to watch. Off target, with incorrect alignment of the breaking hand, and just terrible mechanics.

[ChaShu]

Unfortunately, even some dojo can fall into some McDojo-like practices such as:

* excessive fees
* contracts
* equipment embargoes/retailer requirements
* belt/rank factory practices
* restrictions on visiting other clubs (where visiting other clubs is something that is quite unique in kendo)

So, while we can rail all we want at what we perceive as complete frauds, we should make sure that our kendo dojo do not fall into some of the same practices.

[ArcticBlizzard]

Unfortunately, even some dojo can fall into some McDojo-like practices such as:

* excessive fees
* contracts
* equipment embargoes/retailer requirements
* belt/rank factory practices
* restrictions on visiting other clubs (where visiting other clubs is something that is quite unique in kendo)

So, while we can rail all we want at what we perceive as complete frauds, we should make sure that our kendo dojo do not fall into some of the same practices.

I joined a Iaido dojo, lasted about 6 months. I was promised training sessions two times a week, ended up being ones a week for a little over an hour. For every extra training I had to pay a fee, extra trainings were scheduled before gradings(Kinda weird that I had to pay for extra training since I should have had two sessions a week anyway). Gradings only used by that particular dojo.
Although it wasn't forbidden to buy the equipment elsewhere it was frowned upon.
I wasn't allowed to visit or join any other dojo. That was made very very clear. I wasn't even allowed to talk about other dojo's.

I joined another dojo. I now practice 3 or 4 times a week for longer periods of time in two disciplines and pay less fee. The dojo welcomes visitors and guest sensei etc.

At first I thought it was completely normal although it was very different from my another m.a. dojo I went to a couple of years back. I'm very glad I joined another dojo.

[pgsmith]

I wasn't allowed to visit or join any other dojo. That was made very very clear. I wasn't even allowed to talk about other dojo's.
That's a staple of the "imitation arts". These are arts invented to sound like the real thing, and look like the real thing to the uninitiated. However, if you were to actually gain a little knowledge about legitimate schools, it's pretty easy to see through the fraud. This is why they tend to prohibit outside contact, so that any knowledge you gain comes from them.

[Abramo]

That's a staple of the "imitation arts". These are arts invented to sound like the real thing, and look like the real thing to the uninitiated. However, if you were to actually gain a little knowledge about legitimate schools, it's pretty easy to see through the fraud. This is why they tend to prohibit outside contact, so that any knowledge you gain comes from them.

This is true, but let me add a pinch of salt.

There are many legitimate dojo and even whole schools/arts/systems/ryu that do not allow and/or frown upon visiting other dojo. I guess what really matters is *why*. "Forbidding" a biginner going to other dojo because they'll get conflicting teachings is a good reason. Also beginners need to get their facts straighned up before they go about the city claiming their sensei "said this" or "taught that", which may be total misunderstandings and will make sensei and dojo look bad.

The typical McDojo, however, will claim something pretty bogus such as "the others have gone astray from *the path*" or "we are the only ones practicing *real* houseappliances-jutsu" or things of the sort. The reason behind the prohibition is most important.

[Andrew S]

The typical McDojo, however, will claim something pretty bogus such as "the others have gone astray from *the path*" or "we are the only ones practicing *real* houseappliances-jutsu" or things of the sort. The reason behind the prohibition is most important.
Or write several pages of drivel from which the only lesson that can be gleaned is: hallucinogenic drugs and keyboards don't mix.

[absenteekendoka]

Or write several pages of drivel from which the only lesson that can be gleaned is: hallucinogenic drugs and keyboards don't mix.

One could only assume you may be speaking of our favourite poster and his pearl necklace :P wearing disciple........................must make the keyboard awful sticky.

"Here Damien, have this little micro dot, you'll feel....happy, and a glass of koolaid too"

[Andrew S]

Example #10
The master is developing his "own style". He watches loads of "instructional" videos, especially on YouTube. Feeds critics the same line about "Musashi didn't have a teacher" and "Kano founded judo in his 20s".
Studio walls are plastered with posters of Bruce Lee ("coz he was the greatest martial artist that ever lived")
Thinks x-treme martial arts are combat effective. Might make it as a ninjer if this deal goes sour.

[Abramo]

Thinks x-treme martial arts are combat effective.

#11
Seriously uses the word "extreme" to refer to martial arts. Will purposefully write it "eXtreMe", "X-treme!1!" and other annoying variants.

[ScottUK]

How to spot a McSword Sensei? Simple.

Go here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12982).

Warning - nearly a hundred pages of this crap. Book yourself a weekend off and enjoy it, but don't eat or drink near your PC at the same time unless you want it to coat your monitor. Possibly the funniest JSA thread ever.

NOTE: You need to be a member of E-Budo to see this awesomeness.

[Attica]

I have no idea why but I can never get registered for that site.


How to spot a McSword Sensei? Simple.

Go here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12982).

Warning - nearly a hundred pages of this crap. Book yourself a weekend off and enjoy it, but don't eat or drink near your PC at the same time unless you want it to coat your monitor. Possibly the funniest JSA thread ever.

NOTE: You need to be a member of E-Budo to see this awesomeness.

[Jung_Yul]

I have no idea why but I can never get registered for that site.

Don't feel bad... you're not alone.

[H.Sandsleth]

I joined a Iaido dojo, lasted about 6 months. I was promised training sessions two times a week, ended up being ones a week for a little over an hour. For every extra training I had to pay a fee, extra trainings were scheduled before gradings(Kinda weird that I had to pay for extra training since I should have had two sessions a week anyway). Gradings only used by that particular dojo.

McDojo. Reminds me of a certain place where we didn't have to pay for the classes that were supposed to be there anyway, we just had to lead them ourselves. The instructors would often not tell in advance, they would just not show up. And not only did the instructors not instruct, but they would lie in the yearly rapports about who instructed and even name people as instructors who never, not even once, led a class. The same weirdness surrounded the in house gradings, you didn't have to actually do something worthwhile (train) to get rank.

[ArcticBlizzard]

This is true, but let me add a pinch of salt.

There are many legitimate dojo and even whole schools/arts/systems/ryu that do not allow and/or frown upon visiting other dojo. I guess what really matters is *why*. "Forbidding" a biginner going to other dojo because they'll get conflicting teachings is a good reason. Also beginners need to get their facts straighned up before they go about the city claiming their sensei "said this" or "taught that", which may be total misunderstandings and will make sensei and dojo look bad.

The typical McDojo, however, will claim something pretty bogus such as "the others have gone astray from *the path*" or "we are the only ones practicing *real* houseappliances-jutsu" or things of the sort. The reason behind the prohibition is most important.

If the reason was to protect me and the good name of the dojo it wouldn't have been a problem. I had contact with the sensei of the other dojo and I told him that I maybe wanted to join and if it was a problem that I was already a member at a different dojo. He didn't mind at all, welcomed me and thought it was a good idea to train as much as I could but that their were certain rules that might differ from the other dojo and I had to respect their teachings. For me this was only natural.

My original sensei, as soon as I told him I might wanted to join another dojo as well so I could train more, directly told me that this was against the rules (I couldn't find it in the rules though nor was it ever mentioned) that I wasn't going to be allowed to go to competitions under their name and that my grade (although regulated by the national federation) would never be recognized and I wouldn't be allowed to be graded by them. Furthermore I wasn't even allowed to be a member any more so I couldn't train their unless I paid for each session at a time (guess what, the price of 4 single sessions was higher than the amount per month).
Now not being able to compete and not recognizing my grade isn't a problem for me since I'm doing it for the art and me and not for a grade or prizes.

But charging me a lot extra, nog being allowed to ever visit/join another dojo, not being able to be graded at anytime and charging for sessions that I should have had anyway goes a bit too far. imho


McDojo. Reminds me of a certain place where we didn't have to pay for the classes that were supposed to be there anyway, we just had to lead them ourselves. The instructors would often not tell in advance, they would just not show up. And not only did the instructors not instruct, but they would lie in the yearly rapports about who instructed and even name people as instructors who never, not even once, led a class. The same weirdness surrounded the in house gradings, you didn't have to actually do something worthwhile (train) to get rank.

That's really a shame because that way students who really want to learn a m.a. get a really bad vibe. Other people hear bad things about a certain art and won't go just because of a couple of sensei that couldn't keep it together.



That's a staple of the "imitation arts". These are arts invented to sound like the real thing, and look like the real thing to the uninitiated. However, if you were to actually gain a little knowledge about legitimate schools, it's pretty easy to see through the fraud. This is why they tend to prohibit outside contact, so that any knowledge you gain comes from them.

I wouldn't call it an imitation art, but just the fact that his ego/dojo/income comes before the art or the students is simply wrong. That you don't keep up your word and have different rules for different students is also not a very good way of doing things/leading a dojo. imho

[absenteekendoka]

....your sensei loves running through leaves in his barefeet and his kiai is more like a little girl giggling with happiness.........................hehehehehehehe.. ..... :)

Sadly we never used to charge members for training, being for years able to utilize a space that had been an auditoreum with sprung hardwood floors and awesome ceiling heights........now with finding suitable spaces in our area a pain we had to co-op with another dojo and are paying rent. It's essentially senior students (theres been a core of six or so of us) for a few years that just take it upon ourselves to pay the lions share of it, and any surplus goes into buying shinai and other equipment for junior members. So it does work, in it's own way, though the other club we share space with is mostly MMA people, I've found the only problem to be all the sweat they leave behind after their summer hot weather practices.

[Andrew S]

Example #11
The organisation is pyramid marketing (they obviously never learned from the ancient Egyptians, whose marketing of pyramids was a complete failure)
Instructors are known as "self defence consultants", even though what they know about self defence could be written on the back of a postage stamp. They attend special classes where they learn what to teach in the next class. Some of them have already reached the mighty rank of 6th kyu...
The chief instructor's dan certificates were mostly issued by himself.

[rfoxmich]

Instructors wear gi's that have Dragons embroidered on the back

[rfoxmich]

Forgot one more.. They have drive through windows.

[chidokan]

It sounds easier to describe a good dojo....

you nearly die through overwork.
The instructor quotes or refers to his japanese sensei constantly.
Ryu has a clearly defined line back to japan.
The instructor is more interested in teaching than earning cash.
Impartial advice on kit purchase.
Organised seminars/ trips to Japan.

Simple....

[Kris]

For your entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsSzSflkns8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

If this actually worked, it could revolutionise kendo. :D

Holy McMoley ha ha ha, I wonder how long Bruce Lee was taught by this dude!

[Kris]

What if the club is also it's own association.... Our Aikido association/club runs like this, we had to break away from the main association due to the politics and crap like that (hence why we are the Ronin association). We attend seminars and stuff and our standards are pretty high compared to others we come across, we sweat like pigs and on occasion throw up due to exertion but going on some of the references listed for a Mcdojo we seem to fit in to this category, not that I'm moaning, I'm not, because I know we are better than what has went before this reply but some of the similarities are far from inspiring lol :D

Kris

[ScottUK]

What JSA do you practice?

[samurai80]

very very bad

stereotyping!!

:chinese::chinese::chinese: Damn you're stupid.



-
- Questions about lineage are usually met with "Oh, yeah? Come and try us on the mat" or threats of legal action.
. My favorite one.

Originally posted by Kris
What if the club is also it's own association.... Our Aikido association/club runs like this, we had to break away from the main association due to the politics and crap like that (hence why we are the Ronin association). We attend seminars and stuff and our standards are pretty high compared to others we come across, we sweat like pigs and on occasion throw up due to exertion but going on some of the references listed for a Mcdojo we seem to fit in to this category, not that I'm moaning, I'm not, because I know we are better than what has went before this reply but some of the similarities are far from inspiring lol

This is about to get interesting.

[Kris]

Damn you're stupid.


My favorite one.

Originally posted by Kris
What if the club is also it's own association.... Our Aikido association/club runs like this, we had to break away from the main association due to the politics and crap like that (hence why we are the Ronin association). We attend seminars and stuff and our standards are pretty high compared to others we come across, we sweat like pigs and on occasion throw up due to exertion but going on some of the references listed for a Mcdojo we seem to fit in to this category, not that I'm moaning, I'm not, because I know we are better than what has went before this reply but some of the similarities are far from inspiring lol

This is about to get interesting.

Don't mis-understand what I wrote, I know exactly where we are at as a club as far as Aikido goes, nothing too interesting about it, apart from the fact I could see some basic similarities. We are a good club with a good sensei trained by a very well respected sensei, the point I was making is that up to a certain grade it is quite an informal affair where we are graded internally without syllabus but then at blue and above the pressure is on and we do have a high fail rate , also demotions in grade so no Mcdojo here mate, i just saw a small similarity :D

Best
Kris

[Kris]

It sounds easier to describe a good dojo....

you nearly die through overwork.
The instructor quotes or refers to his japanese sensei constantly.
Ryu has a clearly defined line back to japan.
The instructor is more interested in teaching than earning cash.
Impartial advice on kit purchase.
Organised seminars/ trips to Japan.

Simple....

In the same vain we also have these very same qualities, sensei is not well off, we sometimes only cover the hall, sometimes we are down on cash, he advocates not spending fortunes on expensive equipment and is still taught by a sensei who was taught by one of O senseis students and he wants us all to go to the Hombu Dojo within the next year, so........ this where I found some very small amusement,

Best
Kris

[samurai80]

Don't mis-understand what I wrote, I know exactly where we are at as a club as far as Aikido goes, nothing too interesting about it, apart from the fact I could see some basic similarities. We are a good club with a good sensei trained by a very well respected sensei, the point I was making is that up to a certain grade it is quite an informal affair where we are graded internally without syllabus but then at blue and above the pressure is on and we do have a high fail rate , also demotions in grade so no Mcdojo here mate, i just saw a small similarity :D

Best
Kris

Fair enough.

[Kris]

What JSA do you practice?

Were you asking me there Scott? If so I just started at Iaido in Newcastle at Martin Chambers class, I believe the style/school there is Muso Jikkiden Eishin Ryu

Kris

[Kris]

Thanks for your acceptance Samurai80, it means a lot to not be shot with sarcasm down after just a few post when just trying to highlight a small similarity in what is after all an amusing thread....

Sincerely ;)
Kris

[MartialArtsGirl]

It sounds easier to describe a good dojo....

you nearly die through overwork.
The instructor quotes or refers to his japanese sensei constantly.
Ryu has a clearly defined line back to japan.
The instructor is more interested in teaching than earning cash.
Impartial advice on kit purchase.
Organised seminars/ trips to Japan.

Simple....

Why does it have to only be about Japan? (ok, for Kendo it does either that or Korea, but I was talking about dojos in general, not Kendo only.) So I'm not sure I agree with that. Other than the obvious fact that some martial arts orginate from other countries, couldn't it be that there are Sensei's who are a generation or two removed from their country of orgin? I.e. there was a Japanese or some other ethnicitity teacher, who taught a white guy (or other American- black hispanic whatever...) who then taught your teacher?

I'm just saying, it could be possible and it will be more possible in the future too, as more non-Japanese and non-Asians get higher ranks in stuff- Kendo or otherwise.

It just seems ethno-centric (is that the right word?) to me, to say that the Sensei has to have had a Japanse Sensei. I mean, maybe I'm wrong maybe non-Asians haven't been learning Kendo (in particular) long enough to be high enough rank and not have had a Japanese teacher. Perhaps so. It just sort of, doesn't seem right to make it a "good dojo" requirement though.

[MartialArtsGirl]

And ok, heres another question for you:

If a dojo (non-Kendo) has a lot of these qualitites described above, BUT, the Senseis are not after the money (they do it for a living but are dirt poor),
they do feel passionate about what they are doing,
they are NOT egotistical maniacs (they don't have HUGE followings either),
they do make you sweat like a pig
(and they DON't let you test or advance in rank if you suck, arn't up to par or don't put effort in. but once you test, unless you royally f up you'll pass...and they do test internally),

they truly care about their students as people and martial arts wise... they are constantly learning and imroving themselves in their martial art,, but there are no fees)

BUT, the lineage is rather questionable (i.e. they learned it from a rather famous McDojo Sensei... but maybe they have moved onto a better Sensei recently, and broken off from the mother McDojo because they realized it had...issues. like charging people for every test, which they didn't agree with even though the mother McDojo insisted they do it),

they DO allow dragon patches on your gis if you want them ... they do sell equipment (but dont discourage you from buying it elsewhere) they are in a strip mall... they DO teach more than one martial art (two to be exact) but they focus more on one of them than the other.

they don't claim to be particuarly high rank,
they are extremly informal in the dojo (they don't want to be called Sensei, amoung other things),

They do NOT claim to have any magical abilities, and they do not claim to have secret techniques, etc.

they do emphasize self control, discpline, etc in their students.

Also, they have really affected and changed a couple peoples lives in a very postive way (i.e. mine).

So my question is, in your opinion, does it count as a McDojo?

[Anime12478]

I would still call it a McDojo. While it has the aspects of a legitimate dojo, the source material is still questionable, no matter how you slice it. If the case was someone who broke off with their own interpretation of martial arts after training 30 or 40 years in a reputable art and not dubious about the origins, then that would be seen in a more positive light. But crappy, made-up techniques with a dubious history are still crappy, made-up techniques with a dubious history.

[samurai80]

Thanks for your acceptance Samurai80, it means a lot to not be shot with sarcasm down after just a few post when just trying to highlight a small similarity in what is after all an amusing thread....

Sincerely ;)
Kris

Did you just wink at me?

[1stdan]

MAGirl, You cant classify a school as a McDojo just because it fits a set of requirements. My first dojo was very informal, we joked a lot, But we learned a lot. It was a TKD dojo located in a dance school. As the school progressed the instructor who also was a student of dance became interested in the performance aspects of Martial Arts and that's where the focus led. As for belt tests and gradings we never skimped. I busted my ass for four and a half years three nights a week and most weekends to get my black belt. I earned it thru good old fashioned hard work. Now the school concentrates more on the "Show team", but they still have the strong values that vi sought when I started. Do they lean a little towards the McDojo side.....Maybe a little, but the spirit is there. The previous sensei, who liked to be called MAster whatever, used to have belt tests whenever he came up short on his rent. He is a class A Douche bag that has turned out 20 or 30 Blackbelts in less than five years. Most of them under the age of 15. My old school is part of a federation that covers the state of Texas and a little bit of Mexico. We were not national or intenational federated, but we had heart and good intent. The point is if you are getting ripped off by some guy who claims to be the third heir of whoever and the successor to the soke of his art, that no one has ever heard of its prolly a McDojo. I have seen some great students come out of crappy McDojos and go on to great things. so if ever there was a yen and yang to contemplate thats it.

[H.Sandsleth]

BUT, the lineage is rather questionable (i.e. they learned it from a rather famous McDojo Sensei... but maybe they have moved onto a better Sensei recently, and broken off from the mother McDojo because they realized it had...issues. like charging people for every test, which they didn't agree with even though the mother McDojo insisted they do it),


If what you learn is comparable with more legit and organized arts, that knowledge is something you can use in other settings. One problem though is that you probably have to start at the bottom when it comes to rank if you start training elsewhere. It doesn´t travel well when it comes to the MA hierarchy.

I´ve trained at a place that offered several arts myself, but you only got rank in one of them. And that rank was part of a pretty small organization. But you could compete internationally, or choose to focus on self defence, and lots of people with high rank from other arts trained there, so I wouldn´t call it a bad place.

[chidokan]

This MA site is specifically about japanese arts, so should have connections to Japan....even VERY senior students still recognise their roots and the head of their ryu as being there. Ok we have korean sensei, european and USA sensei, but these people will admit they have links to japan. There is a very good reason for this, especially at a very senior level. You are 'alone' as the senior person in your area, so who can you discuss the finer points with, other than other senior people? (Guess where they live...:D)
We can be up to three generations removed, but you should still find a link back. When I started MA in the early 70's the guy who taught me karate had a japanese teacher, later my TKD instructor had a korean sensei, and finally my kendo and iai sensei either had a link or were japanese.
The splits in karate are horrendously complicated, but again you can find a link in most cases...

[MartialArtsGirl]

I would still call it a McDojo. While it has the aspects of a legitimate dojo, the source material is still questionable, no matter how you slice it. If the case was someone who broke off with their own interpretation of martial arts after training 30 or 40 years in a reputable art and not dubious about the origins, then that would be seen in a more positive light. But crappy, made-up techniques with a dubious history are still crappy, made-up techniques with a dubious history.

My old Sensei (not Kendo) split off from the original Mcdojo franchise because he realized that the orginal sensei was a douchbag. Actually he's pretty infamous so if I said his name here you'd probably know it. However, I've heard (and researched) that before he became a McDojo Sensei, he did learn some legit stuff. How much he changed for his McDojo, I don't know. I think my own Senseis later switched to some other Senseis. (Or at least one of them did, probably the other too.) The orgins are not as dubious, I think. (it can be traced back historically I believe, even though I've never looked into it much). it's just, how much was messed up due to the McDojo, who knows.


MAGirl, You cant classify a school as a McDojo just because it fits a set of requirements. My first dojo was very informal, we joked a lot, But we learned a lot. It was a TKD dojo located in a dance school. As the school progressed the instructor who also was a student of dance became interested in the performance aspects of Martial Arts and that's where the focus led. As for belt tests and gradings we never skimped. I busted my ass for four and a half years three nights a week and most weekends to get my black belt. I earned it thru good old fashioned hard work. Now the school concentrates more on the "Show team", but they still have the strong values that vi sought when I started. Do they lean a little towards the McDojo side.....Maybe a little, but the spirit is there. The previous sensei, who liked to be called MAster whatever, used to have belt tests whenever he came up short on his rent. He is a class A Douche bag that has turned out 20 or 30 Blackbelts in less than five years. Most of them under the age of 15. My old school is part of a federation that covers the state of Texas and a little bit of Mexico. We were not national or intenational federated, but we had heart and good intent. The point is if you are getting ripped off by some guy who claims to be the third heir of whoever and the successor to the soke of his art, that no one has ever heard of its prolly a McDojo. I have seen some great students come out of crappy McDojos and go on to great things. so if ever there was a yen and yang to contemplate thats it.

This sounds a little bit similar to the school. I had to work really really hard... (I'll admit it...I worked harder than I have been in Kendo, at times.... :(... I was in a different place in my life I guess. This school was the first place where I started to feel confident in myself... it really gave me a lot in many ways....so my goal is to work even harder than that time...in Kendo!)

Anyway, it took me 2 years maybe... of working really hard. (I'd frequently work so hard that I'd want to pass out.) I also went four times a week for 2 hour classes. But I got my black belt. Anyway, apparantly I got my black belt faster than most of the other people in my dojo. I remember several people literally got stuck at certain belts for quite awhile.

I think that, even if it was a McDojo or had strong McDojo elements... even if that were true, it would not have been due to the Senseis themselves.

Although I did learn a lot and was in excellent shape, I think what I learned most was more internal. But I did learn some useful things too- jujitsus, which were especially useful.

Also, even if it was a McDojo, it was the least McDojo like school in the whole state. Many people came from pretty far away to go to my old dojo, because the nearby ones weren't very good.

But actually, I feel really really bad even calling it a McDojo, because I feel like it really changed my life. Also I don't think I would have started Kendo if I hadn't had good experiences there.

[Kris]

Did you just wink at me?

Lost in translation I think man....!

[MartialArtsGirl]

Darn it, why do I always think of somehting extra to add AFTER the 5 minute limit is up??

Anyway...


This MA site is specifically about japanese arts, so should have connections to Japan....even VERY senior students still recognise their roots and the head of their ryu as being there. Ok we have korean sensei, european and USA sensei, but these people will admit they have links to japan. There is a very good reason for this, especially at a very senior level. You are 'alone' as the senior person in your area, so who can you discuss the finer points with, other than other senior people? (Guess where they live...:D)
We can be up to three generations removed, but you should still find a link back. When I started MA in the early 70's the guy who taught me karate had a japanese teacher, later my TKD instructor had a korean sensei, and finally my kendo and iai sensei either had a link or were japanese.
The splits in karate are horrendously complicated, but again you can find a link in most cases...

I guess what I'm saying is, there ARE some martial arts that were born in other countries. I am specifically thinking of capoira- born in brazil, and has some roots in Africa as well. I wouldnt be suprised if there are others. (Isn't there one from Isaral? I'm not sure but I think I heard something to that extent...)


But yeah, I understand, this site is more specifically related to Japanese martial arts. And it does make sense that a good dojo is more likely to have a Sensei who had a Japanese sensei. But- to make it a requirment of a good dojo? It just sort of, didn't sound right to me.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Japanese culture and everything... and my own Kendo sensei is Japanese. But it somehow just didnt sound right to me in that other post, wherever it is.

[1stdan]

I remember several people literally got stuck at certain belts for quite awhile.

I knew a few peps that worked as hard as I did for twice as long and still have not progressed. Everyone is different.

The point sis this. Do "YOU" get ripped off. If I were to jump on you from behind the door could you defend yourself? I know third degree black belts that cant do a take down, They know the forms and they paid the money therefore they got the belt. They got ripped off. I feel i got something valuable out of my dojo. Do i feel i got ripped off. No. Could they be better. Yes. Are they MCDojo,who knows.

I feel a well balanced school that treats you fairly is not a McDojo.

Now define "Fairly"

[MartialArtsGirl]

I knew a few peps that worked as hard as I did for twice as long and still have not progressed. Everyone is different.

The point sis this. Do "YOU" get ripped off. If I were to jump on you from behind the door could you defend yourself? I know third degree black belts that cant do a take down, They know the forms and they paid the money therefore they got the belt. They got ripped off. I feel i got something valuable out of my dojo. Do i feel i got ripped off. No. Could they be better. Yes. Are they MCDojo,who knows.

I feel a well balanced school that treats you fairly is not a McDojo.

Now define "Fairly"

Hm, when you say that do you mean, even if its years later?
I feel like I got a little chubby.... :( but anyway I probably would have said yes a couple of years ago. I'm not that chubby, but still I feel chubby. :(

I used to be able to do take downs. I could probably still do it. I know how to fall. I could probably get out of most grapples/holds. (choking, etc)

We never did spar much, but we did do some other reaction timing stuff.

They treated me more than fairly. I guess, if I think about it, the only question I have was how legit was the actual martial arts. I mean, it is a legit school of martial arts, but how watered down was it? How much was it changed?

I dont feel like I got ripped off, even if what I learned was not as good as it could have been. I've never been in a real life fight so I wouldn't know how good I'd be at it, (and we didnt spar much in class, but when we did I sucked at it) so, it's quite possible that the self defense aspect of what I learned is not too strong. There, but not too strong. But thats never why I did it in the first place anyway.

[1stdan]

It sounds like you got some good stuff from it. The chubby thing, I run 250 lbs and have since i started. Weight has nothing to do with martial skill. Cheeseburgers have to do with weight, mostly.
As for being able to do stuff then and now. If you dont practice every day you will lose a little. But the fundamentals will remain. As for sparring it was never my fav, but it did get me used to being hit and not freaking out, thats what sparring is good for among other things. Sound like no McDojo in your past. But even if it was, you cheated them. They wanted money for nothing and you got something in return, so you won that fight.

Earlier you mention other countries, Everybody fights. Every country has some MA. Even penguins fight a certain way. I am not sure if anyone has developed a penguin style yet. I might just claim that one as mine. It will at least get some good responses on this forum. Hmmmmmmm Penguin ninjas.

[chidokan]

I would say that at some point way back when, most UK dojo would have qualified for the Mcdojo title to some degree. However there is a large distinction between well meaning people who practise hard to learn as much as they can, and people who are simply there to screw as much money as they can out of the students. The clues are always there if you look.... if you find yourself in one, there are two things to do. One is just leave, the other is to try and get it around to a 'straight' dojo by visiting other dojo, say nothing for a while, and let everyone start noticing hoiw much better you are getting. At soime point they will want to catch up....and then the guy who is ripping you off will either have to change his ways, or you all leave.

[satsumaruma]

Darn it, why do I always think of somehting extra to add AFTER the 5 minute limit is up??

Anyway...
.

....it is the same with witty retorts.

I ALWAYS think of the best put downs five minutes after I had the opportunity to make a reply. Damn.



damn damn damn:glasses:


I knew a few peps that worked as hard as I did for twice as long and still have not progressed.
Now define "Fairly"

Now explain "peps"?:vampire:


Hm, when you say that do you mean, even if its years later?
I feel like I got a little chubby.... :( but anyway I probably would have said yes a couple of years ago. I'm not that chubby, but still I feel chubby. :(



.


hey, you bit of a chub-chubs? Superb!

Did you know that is total magazine shite that men like stick insects. No way. We like girls who are true Goddesses and that means the full figured variety - check out Botticelli, he knew what a girl should look like (although maybe a bit more PVC and fetish heels would have been cool too):scared:


It sounds like you got some good stuff from it. The chubby thing, I run 250 lbs and have since i started. Weight has nothing to do with martial skill. Cheeseburgers have to do with weight, mostly.

.

250lbs? Your tash weighs more than that:scared:

But seriously, cheeseburgers aren;t usually the whole problem. Whiet wine, red wine, beer, lager, chocolate, beer, wine, chocolate and beer account for most peoples cuddly bits.

[H.Sandsleth]

I would say that at some point way back when, most UK dojo would have qualified for the Mcdojo title to some degree. However there is a large distinction between well meaning people who practise hard to learn as much as they can, and people who are simply there to screw as much money as they can out of the students. The clues are always there if you look.... if you find yourself in one, there are two things to do. One is just leave, the other is to try and get it around to a 'straight' dojo by visiting other dojo, say nothing for a while, and let everyone start noticing hoiw much better you are getting. At soime point they will want to catch up....and then the guy who is ripping you off will either have to change his ways, or you all leave.

I don´t know about the latter suggestion...imho a McDojo, whether it´s a full blown money making machine, or a legitimate Japanese style dojo that has managed to veer off track and landed in crazy land because of bad leadership, they offer something that makes some students want to stay. It can be more or less "free" rank, travels, male bonding...skill is low on the list and for those who collect free rank etc, you will most likely just provoke them, not change them. Imho just leave and don´t waste you time there. Every minute in such a place is a lost minute.

[stealth_monkey]

Generally, in my mind, there's two different phenomena that need to be identified: McDojos and Bullshido (perhaps you can guess another forum I frequent :grin:).

A McDojo is any martial arts organisation that prioritises financial gain over the experience of their pupils. Symptoms of this are black belt acceleration programs, fee based "instructor" training, use of students as employees (eg Go Kan Ryu) and the list goes on.

Bullshido, however, is the use of claims in Martial Arts training that can not be objectively measured, or taught by instructors that refuse to allow them to be objectively measured. Examples of this are Dim Mak, Yellow Bamboo, Aikido, Ninjutsu

Now, just because you go to a McDojo doesn't mean you won't learn how to fight, it just means you'rer going to pay a lot more money, and there's a strong correlation between McDojos and Bullshido

[Maccuswæl]

I've been exposed to four dojos. There is a dojo in my town that offers no less than nine different martial arts classes (including "weapons"), and was full of little kids when I walked in to check them out. I asked the lady there at the front for information and she grabbed a brochure, held it out to me and then turned around and walked away as soon as I touched it. Didn't say a word to me.

At my kendo club I showed up to check it out and sensei handed me a bokken and told me where to stand in line. That was last October and I've been going every week since, with rare exception.

I've only been the one time so far, but the same with iaido. I emailed the sensei and he told me when to show up and that he'd bring me what I didn't already have from kendo. I showed up, he showed me what I needed to do, went through the forms with me, we chatted afterward, exchanged polite behavior and said we'd see each other next time.

And last weekend I was walking past a strip mall dojo and noticed a table set out on the sidewalk that had a catalog on it with a picture of a samurai sword. I opened it up and was looking at their kendo gear (such as it was) when a girl appeared out of nowhere (maybe they teach ninjutsu?) and started giving me what I thought was a fairly high pressure sell. I ended up inviting her to our next kendo practice and scooting off.

It's kind of like that Monty Python sketch, "Spot the Looney". Maybe the first and fourth were McDojos, maybe not, but whether they were legitimate in what they teach, they put out negative vibes to where I don't believe I would have gone to them for instruction even if I knew they were. I think trusting to our experience and gut feelings may be more important than quibbling over a laundry list of indicators. (Though to be fair I did go to the iaido forum asking what to look for to see if the iaido sensei was a weirdo before I went. It's esoteric enough of a thing to me that I didn't trust that I'd be able to tell completely on my own. In retrospect, I think I would have been able to.)

[H.Sandsleth]

Bullshido, however, is the use of claims in Martial Arts training that can not be objectively measured, or taught by instructors that refuse to allow them to be objectively measured. Examples of this are Dim Mak, Yellow Bamboo, Aikido, Ninjutsu

By that definition a lot of arts are Bullshido, far more than you mention. You have a whole range of non verified claims related to serious Japanese arts that have never been verified by objective measurement. Such as "development of character", understanding of Japanese mentality/culture/warrior tradition, self defence, health benefits...The arts are based on upholding and interpretating tradition, and as such there is no need for objective measurement.

[stealth_monkey]

By that definition a lot of arts are Bullshido, far more than you mention. You have a whole range of non verified claims related to serious Japanese arts that have never been verified by objective measurement. Such as "development of character", understanding of Japanese mentality/culture/warrior tradition, self defence, health benefits...The arts are based on upholding and interpretating tradition, and as such there is no need for objective measurement.

I fully agree. Don't get me wrong, Ninjutsu, Aikido, and anything of its ilk are great styles, and if you enjoy the practise, go nuts. I personally love Aikido, and intend to do more of it when I get the chance. Just don't say that these arts are viable methods of real life combat and you're set. At that point, you're drifting into areas that can, and should, be questioned

[b8amack]

By that definition a lot of arts are Bullshido, far more than you mention.

Yes. Tai Chi. Reiki. Aikido. Hapkido. Anything with Ki or its equivalent in the title... right away those seem to be considered bullshido. I think ki is ridiculous myself, which will probably subject me to some flaming in short order, but the bullshido guys throw the baby out with the bathwater, sometimes.

[Kris]

I fully agree. Don't get me wrong, Ninjutsu, Aikido, and anything of its ilk are great styles, and if you enjoy the practise, go nuts. I personally love Aikido, and intend to do more of it when I get the chance. Just don't say that these arts are viable methods of real life combat and you're set. At that point, you're drifting into areas that can, and should, be questioned


This is a subject that appears time and time again on various forums. Speaking as an Aikidoka here, I firmly believe that it is a viable self defence art, not just against sword but in real life situations.... Maybe not so much in the classical form but take yourself to a school that teaches applied/progressive Aikido and I think you will change your mind.... It's all about atemi (and form) We go for a more applied style in our association, my sensei's sensei is thoroughly classical, the difference is massive and I agree, from a classical, flowery style then it looks like it would be hard to use as self defence but from the style we practice, and it is not only us that use this style then I fail to see any substance in your comment..... I don't mean that in an arsey way but it just isn't true mate....

Cheers
Kris

[ScottUK]

This is a subject that appears time and time again on various forums. Speaking as an Aikidoka here, I firmly believe that it is a viable self defence art, not just against sword but in real life situations...Do you really believe muto-dori as it is taught in aiki actually works? I think the only schools that have sussed muto-dori are the Seki-ryu and the Morishige-ryu... :D


I don't mean that in an arsey way but it just isn't true mate....Likewise!

[Kris]

Do you really believe muto-dori as it is taught in aiki actually works? I think the only schools that have sussed muto-dori are the Seki-ryu and the Morishige-ryu... :D

Likewise!


I don't see your point mate, my point being, Aikido works and works well, I've seen it work. I have been studying it for a mere 18 month now, not long at all but have the opportunity to attend a few seminars and other peoples classes to get a further idea of how other people train. Forgive my ignorance in the terminology, I think if I was to label our class then It would be a bit like Aiki-jujitsu. My sensei is 38 years in shotokan, 16 in Aikido and has trained in various other martial arts, as mentioned in another thread where someone was about to shoot me down in flames rather than just answer the question, his teacher is very well respected so we don't just train under someone who has decided to bastardise a particular art after getting a dan grade and teachers licence..... so, to summarise, yes I do think that Aiki works in real life (getting accosted in town bars by henry lloyd wearing charvas) and I will defend this (with my empty hand)! and no, I just don't see the truth in the previous statement, it has to depend on the person using the art, it's a far cry as you well know from going on the mat to fighting in the street with a distinct lack of rules..... next time you are in Newcastle mate, pop along to one of our classes and have a look, you have a formal invite.... Again, I'm not being an arse here, I mean it as I find it hard to argue with terminology that I don't have, thats why some of my posts may appear dumbed down....

Cheers
Kris

[Josh Reyer]

Do you really believe muto-dori as it is taught in aiki actually works? I think the only schools that have sussed muto-dori are the Seki-ryu and the Morishige-ryu... :D


"Even when muto-dori is as easy as cutting down bound men, it works about 5 or 6 times out of ten."
--Yagyu Sekishusai Munetoshi, famed for his muto-dori.

[satsumaruma]

This is a subject that appears time and time again on various forums. Speaking as an Aikidoka here, I firmly believe that it is a viable self defence art, not just against sword but in real life situations.... Maybe not so much in the classical form but take yourself to a school that teaches applied/progressive Aikido and I think you will change your mind.... It's all about atemi (and form) We go for a more applied style in our association, my sensei's sensei is thoroughly classical, the difference is massive and I agree, from a classical, flowery style then it looks like it would be hard to use as self defence but from the style we practice, and it is not only us that use this style then I fail to see any substance in your comment..... I don't mean that in an arsey way but it just isn't true mate....

Cheers
Kris


I read somewhere many years ago that Chiba Sensei, when he realised how good he was at Aikido decided to test what he had learned with a fellow akidoka. He did this by starting a fight in a bar with several sailors who were up for a fight.

And yes they both came through it with the sailors beaten ( although, allegedly Chiba s. did admit to glassing one in the face with an ashtray - not typical aikido I guess):bandit:

[ScottUK]

LOL Josh... :D
so, to summarise, yes I do think that Aiki works in real lifeSorry for my use of unfamiliar terminology, Kris. Muto-dori is (simply put) defending yourself against someone armed with a sword. My comment was levelled at your 'aiki is effective against someone with a sword' statement. I do not believe so. One of the KW membership who I train with is an extremely competent aikidoka and I am certain that his technique is 'street-effective' but I would throw serious doubt on aikidoka disarming a swordsman - unless the swordsman starred in Rain Man.


you have a formal invite...Thanks. I expect I will be up at your place (Martin's dojo) late this year or early next. Might catch up with you then...

[Kris]

I read somewhere many years ago that Chiba Sensei, when he realised how good he was at Aikido decided to test what he had learned with a fellow akidoka. He did this by starting a fight in a bar with several sailors who were up for a fight.

And yes they both came through it with the sailors beaten ( although, allegedly Chiba s. did admit to glassing one in the face with an ashtray - not typical aikido I guess):bandit:

Yeah man, it was after O Sensei had took him to one side and astonished him by being friendly and telling him to basically go and do what he had been taught, after years of thinking that O Sensei was just indifferent to his students, there is a classical aspect to Aikido that will never work but there are other people out there who work to progress it. One of the mind sets of this is the classical people who want to keep it as it was when O Sensei went from basically being a killer to a more mellowed and affable guy, probably when he started looking at other religions. Then there are schools like ours that go back past that to when O Sensei stated that Aikido should be progressive and not be allowed to stagnate basically.... Now, I have nothing against classical form at all and believe that without this, the other styles would not work at all as without form there is pretty much just a muscled technique, it may work but it isn't right... I think I'm right in saying that Christian Tissier also had issue with the Hmbu dojo/Aikikai as he also doesn't like to stick to a purely classical form but now we are truly digressing from the point of this thread which was Mc dojos, my bad for being a self righteous baldy geordie git, I'm gonna start another thread on the subject to see what the general consensus be on this subject .

Cheers
Kris

[Kris]

LOL Josh... :DSorry for my use of unfamiliar terminology, Kris. Muto-dori is (simply put) defending yourself against someone armed with a sword. My comment was levelled at your 'aiki is effective against someone with a sword' statement. I do not believe so. One of the KW membership who I train with is an extremely competent aikidoka and I am certain that his technique is 'street-effective' but I would throw serious doubt on aikidoka disarming a swordsman - unless the swordsman starred in Rain Man.

Thanks. I expect I will be up at your place (Martin's dojo) late this year or early next. Might catch up with you then...

No offence taken mate, I have been particularly lazy in getting to grips with my Japanese as I find in Aikido there is just far too much more at the minute to take in. My next grade is a formal affair and I'm expected to at least have a rudimentary grasp by then! I hope you do come along man, we're always looking for people to show a little interest in another style.

In relation to being effective against a sword, we are taught that Aikido was founded around fighting someone with said fouling piece.... Now, we are also taught that the best defence against this is to basically have it on your toes, or as Monty Python put it......"Run away, run away"!

I like the rain man reference mate , but have you watched Chocolate by the makers of Ong-Bak? Do not discount Autism and martial arts ha ha :cat:

Cheers
Kris

[Kris]

LOL, just googled the terms you mentioned Scott and I think your'e right, a good volley of musket shot is gonna do the trick man!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Here's (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34039&) a good old thread on e-budo about muto-dori.

[ScottUK]

I remember that. Some interesting points but I am still unconvinced! ;)

[pgsmith]

Just don't say that these arts are viable methods of real life combat and you're set.
By God I hate that particular line! It has been my experience that 99.5% of the bozos that love to throw that line out have never been in any sort of combat more serious than a bar fight with a drunk. The vast (and I do mean vast) majority of people that have ever had any connection with the martial arts in the last couple of decades have never had to physically defend themselves.

You can spout all of the 'self-defense' and 'real life combat' jargon you wish, but it has been my experience growing up on the bad side of El Paso amidst various gang wars, and during my time serving in the Army, that a stubborn determination to cause serious physical damage to your opponent is what will win. Unless you are involved in law enforcement, in which case aikido would be your best bet since you are less likely to permanently damage your opponent, the only part of your martial arts training you are ever likely to use is situational awareness and self-confidence. That's something that can be picked up from most McDojos really.

Sorry for the rant, but you managed to catch one of my soap-box subjects, :D

As for muto-dori, my instructor explained it this way. He said that if your opponent knows which end of a sword is which, you'll die. But, it's better to die fighting than trying to run away. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I remember that. Some interesting points but I am still unconvinced!A couple of amazing old guys who have devoted their lives to this aside, if I have something resembling a sword in my hands, and you don't, you're going to get hit. Nothing is 100% sure, but it's close. As I point out in the e-budo thread, I don't have a problem with people practicing the technique, it's the attitude that many schools have of "just get inside, no problem" or "you have the advantage, the swordsman is over-confident" or some other such BS. The attitude should be more "trying this is better than giving up".

[ScottUK]

I love the 'yeah but you knew I was gonna try muto-dori' arguments after I hit them with a foam/latex sword.*

WHAT? Obviously the swordsman is aware that the unarmed chappie will have to resort to this technique. Fools... :D

* (one of our guys is a LARPer)

[Oroshi]

I love the 'yeah but you knew I was gonna try muto-dori' arguments after I hit them with a foam/latex sword.
I hope you did sassen.

[ScottUK]

A 50% speed shomenuchi. Any faster than that would have been v. painful due to a fibreglass core in the LARP sword... ;)

[Oroshi]

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb137/yamaoroshi/003-big.gif

[Josh Reyer]

In Shinkage-ryu, there are a few kata wherein uchidachi cuts straight down and the response is very much like most aikido tachidori; shidachi steps off the line and strikes uchidachi's down-cutting arm with his shinai. This is, in fact, easier than tachidori because shidachi doesn't even have to get inside; he has the reach with his shinai to hit from a farther maai. And you would not believe how hard this is when uchidachi is really committed to nailing you. People get thwacked all the time.

The other thing often overlooked in muto demonstrations is that, particularly in armored combat, a cut was often accompanied by immediate tai-atari. It's not so easy to slip in and control the sword when you've got a shoulder in your face, even should you avoid the initial cut.

[stealth_monkey]

This is a subject that appears time and time again on various forums. Speaking as an Aikidoka here, I firmly believe that it is a viable self defence art, not just against sword but in real life situations.... Maybe not so much in the classical form but take yourself to a school that teaches applied/progressive Aikido and I think you will change your mind.... It's all about atemi (and form) We go for a more applied style in our association, my sensei's sensei is thoroughly classical, the difference is massive and I agree, from a classical, flowery style then it looks like it would be hard to use as self defence but from the style we practice, and it is not only us that use this style then I fail to see any substance in your comment..... I don't mean that in an arsey way but it just isn't true mate....

Cheers
Kris

I do apologise, I shouldn't have worded my post so strongly. As a strong believer of Matt Thornton's philosophy of alliveness in training, that's fantastic if you're practising aikido in an alive manner. I've personally never seen it done, aside from a minor attempt by tomiki ryu, but hey, if that's starting to become a little more common I'm going to love aikido when I find the time to go back


You can spout all of the 'self-defense' and 'real life combat' jargon you wish, but it has been my experience growing up on the bad side of El Paso amidst various gang wars, and during my time serving in the Army, that a stubborn determination to cause serious physical damage to your opponent is what will win. Unless you are involved in law enforcement,

I agree with you to a point. Stubborness and agression will make you a damn good fighter, as will testing your ability against someone who's trying to resist you. Practising a kata or a drill in slow motion against a compliant partner a couple of hundred times won't though, no matter who tells you otherwise.




Sorry for the rant, but you managed to catch one of my soap-box subjects,
No worries, it's my kind of soapbox too, but I get the feeling both of us have heard the other side of the argument plenty of times before.

[rjhartu]

Some warning signs:

- falsified/inflated instructor credentials
- guaranteed promotions (black belt in 2 years for X $)
- student contracts (must sign up for 1 year, etc)
- mandatory equipment purchase through club
- mandatory and frequent promotion tests for fees
- money-making schemes such as "black belt club", "red dragon club", etc
- beginners/kids classes taught by students
- many styles taught at same studio
- style made up by instructor after "many years of experience" etc ad nauseum
- hard sell on new students

In Japan I have to purchase a special bokken and Jo from my dojo, several styles are taught in my dojo although related via transmission lines.

Is this Koryu a Mc dojo?

[rjhartu]

Yep....or Niten Ichi ryu, shinto muso ryu, suio ryu, kendo, katori shinto ryu all under one Sensei.. *cough*


I'm doing, not teaching, kendo and 3 koryu arts with 4 different teachers.

If I got menkyo in all 3 koryu and reached 3 Dan before I leave Japan would I be a McDojo teacher?

[ShinKenshi]

I'm doing, not teaching, kendo and 3 koryu arts with 4 different teachers.

If I got menkyo in all 3 koryu and reached 3 Dan before I leave Japan would I be a McDojo teacher?If you met most of the other qualifications that Neil mentioned then probably. Out of curiosity, what koryu are you practicing? Is it one sensei that teaches one koryu and they all happen to be at the same dojo? Just looking for clarification and am genuinely curious.

[MartialArtsGirl]

It sounds like you got some good stuff from it. The chubby thing, I run 250 lbs and have since i started. Weight has nothing to do with martial skill. Cheeseburgers have to do with weight, mostly.
As for being able to do stuff then and now. If you dont practice every day you will lose a little. But the fundamentals will remain. As for sparring it was never my fav, but it did get me used to being hit and not freaking out, thats what sparring is good for among other things. Sound like no McDojo in your past. But even if it was, you cheated them. They wanted money for nothing and you got something in return, so you won that fight.

Earlier you mention other countries, Everybody fights. Every country has some MA. Even penguins fight a certain way. I am not sure if anyone has developed a penguin style yet. I might just claim that one as mine. It will at least get some good responses on this forum. Hmmmmmmm Penguin ninjas.

Actually, my old Kempo dojo was not about the money. One of the main reasons that they broke away from the Mother McDojo was that the mother McDojo wanted them to charge money for every belt test, (and it was a very expensive price). Among other things.

Nah, my old Senseis were (and probably still are) dirt poor. I once had to get a ride from one of them, and seriously, his car.... yeah. lol

They really cared about their students. They had a room that they dedicated specifically for homework help. It didn't cost a dime to use, and often the older kids were asked if they would help out the younger kids. Also, if you were a kid in high school or younger... if you were doing badly in school (i.e. not trying or whatever) then my Senseis wouldnt let you test for your belt.

They were not money grubbing people at all! That I can say for sure, 100%. They had the skills and such to do something else if they wanted (one had a degree in economics) but they chose to teach martial arts instead.

They did a movie night for the teenagers/kids too, but it didn't cost anything. (I think the only cost was for the pizza and soda). That didnt last long though, because some of us, errr, nevermind. lol

Basically, it was more of a family type enviorment than anything else. Sure there was a class fee (I think it was 80 or something for unlimited classes) but thats normal for the area we lived in.

Honestly, I love them dearly. They really did change my life.

[rjhartu]

I rather not but my arts up on the open forum, but I'll Accept a pm.

[ShinKenshi]

I rather not but my arts up on the open forum, but I'll Accept a pm.Fair enough, PM sent.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In Japan I have to purchase a special bokken and Jo from my dojo, several styles are taught in my dojo although related via transmission lines.

Is this Koryu a Mc dojo?I posted those as warning signs, not definitive markers.

[ScottUK]

several styles are taught in my dojo although related via transmission lines.I also think that the general consensus is that when we talk 'different styles', this relates more to those dojo that teach karate, krav maga, judo, MMA, taekwondo, cage-love and 'weapons' (plus whatever else is fashionable this week) than those that teach multiple koryu (although McDojo DO exist that do this). I can think of quite a number of dojo that teach 3+ ryuha legitimately.

[nikozamo]

not always when you need to buy something from your dojo or a dojo guy (like Neil said) its a mcdojo... sometimes in other countries or in reation to koryu it's difficult to find some equipment or they are no too cheap in stores or to buy by internet...

:D

[ScottUK]

...or the commercially-available stuff is crap (e.g. HNIR bokuto). ;)

[ender84567]

anyplace that has a website that looks like this http://www.jimmccoy.com/b_index.php (eyebleach may be required after viewing) This guy taught a kendo/tamashigiri class thru the parks and rec here once, he was banned from ever teaching with the FWPR again, so I wonder what happened.... (i would guess some kind of appendage loosing accident)

[ender84567]

he took the link to the kendo page down, here it is, sorry for the double post

http://www.jimmccoy.com/kendo.php

look, the only kendo video you will _ever_ need