When to start wearing Bogu

[BoguBoogyman]

Can someone recommend when I should start doing keiko in bogu? What makes a person 'ready' for wearing a bogu? I personally want to be ready to compete as soon as I can. When should I be training in full armour? Thanks.

[Toecutter]

Can someone recommend when I should start doing keiko in bogu? What makes a person 'ready' for wearing a bogu? I personally want to be ready to compete as soon as I can. When should I be training in full armour? Thanks.
Those questions are best answered by your sensei. Times vary in every dojo as everyone is different.

[ジャン]

I started at the end of Oct 2008 and last week I started wearing my men. I think it was a bit early though, because I only had a week in tare+kote+do. However I didn't feel a real difference when I was wearing 3/4 anyway, except for stamina maybe.

Oh and don't rush it. Nothing good comes out of rushing things. Even if you start wearing full armour, you are still in no way competitive at that state. Maybe learning the basics a little longer would be better for you, but you have to ask that to your sensei.

[John Seavitt]

... when I should start doing keiko in bogu?

There's a bit of a range, depending on your instructor and your individual progress. Your instructor is in a good position to gauge both of these factors, so I'd direct your question that way.

There are some basics that it is helpful to establish at first, without bogu. Don't worry; bogu will be along soon enough.

John

[Oroshi]

In short, when your sensei tells you to. You don't get to choose.

[still learning]

Can someone recommend when I should start doing keiko in bogu?

What we would need to know before proffering any opinion is - - How long have you been attending class/dojo?

IMHO-If it is less than 6 months - then you have a little while to wait.

BTW; as soon as you are allowed to have a bash in full kit you will probably think 'I'm not ready yet' - or perhaps - 'Get me out of here.........'

Be patient and trust your leadership.

Enjoy the armour - when you get there.

[Angel_Of_Music]

I always thought a year or two would be fine.

Guess it depends on the dōjō, the sensei, and the readiness of the beginners.

I've heard of some dōjō overseas which allow, after only 5 months of beginners training, though I think that isn't very wise personally.


It will be some time b4 it's my turn to wear bōgu. But when that happens, I will be sure to miss the freedom of training (and movement) without bōgu! :D

[krys]

I've heard of some dōjō overseas which allow, after only 5 months of beginners training, though I think that isn't very wise personally.

You do not wear bogu yourself and yet give your opionions on what is wise...
I personally think it is wise to wear bogu after 5 days if sensei says so.

[Angel_Of_Music]

Geez man! It's only a PERSONAL opinion. :tired:


Of course what the sensei decides is final. The sensei should know best when to allow the student to "progress" on. Just that.




* PS: I am being trolled? :surprise:

[rfoxmich]

When you sensei says. As someone who leads a dojo I sometimes find it a bit disrespectful when a student tries the make their own decision in this matter. I have criteria that in most circumstances I'll apply to the decision to allow students to wear bogu. There are exceptions to this, however they are my exceptions not the student's.
Sorry if this sounds a bit strict but putting on bogu too soon can hold back your progress...as can putting it on too late. The damage done by putting on bogu too late can be remedied quite quickly but the bad habits picked up by putting on bogu prematurely can take a long long time to remedy.

[atgm]

I trained for a month before being told to put on bogu. I had all of it on at once. It just goes to underscore the fact that it's different for everyone and depends on the sensei.

[krys]

* PS: I am being trolled? :surprise:Are you trolling yourself?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Different dojo approach this differently. I take Ron's approach and decide on a case by case basis. It can vary from 3 months to a year for our dojo, with most people ready sometime before 6 months are up. Your sensei may approach things differently, and as others have said, it is his decision, not yours.

[Paikea]

Are you trolling yourself?Try decaf and the "wag more, bark less" strategy.

[Angel_Of_Music]

Are you trolling yourself?

I guess I better stop feeding the troll here...

[Angel_Of_Music]

When you sensei says. As someone who leads a dojo I sometimes find it a bit disrespectful when a student tries the make their own decision in this matter. I have criteria that in most circumstances I'll apply to the decision to allow students to wear bogu. There are exceptions to this, however they are my exceptions not the student's.
Sorry if this sounds a bit strict but putting on bogu too soon can hold back your progress...as can putting it on too late. The damage done by putting on bogu too late can be remedied quite quickly but the bad habits picked up by putting on bogu prematurely can take a long long time to remedy.

Nope. It's not one bit "strict", as you would put it. As long as the sensei directs it, it should not be a problem. Otherwise, It could become a free-for-all, and that would suck.

And yeah, i think the last statement said it all (about putting on bōgu too late or too early). Mistakes are best corrected from the start b4 one progresses on, otherwise things are kinda "set in stone" for the new guy and might take longer to correct rfoxmich put it.

But in the end, trust in and respect for the sensei is most important, and if he/she decides when you have to go on bōgu, then you have to do as you are told.

[Mark5-9]

I have only been studying about three months but so far my Sensei only has me wearing the Tare and Do. In a way I think it might be good as our training sessions are quite aerobic. It is probably a good idea to get well used to the exercise, and the confinement of the bogu, a piece at a time.

[Maccuswæl]

I understand that one should have a good grasp on the basics and be comfortable enough to not go out in bogu and hurt themselves or their partner. It seems strange to me, however, that this would take more than a few months of regular practice. Like a lot of people have said, it depends on the person and the sensei makes that call, but it also seems to me that some are stuck on this notion that this should take some kind of long period. Waiting two years (or even one) to even put on bogu seems excessive. I sometimes wonder if people are arbitrarily pulling out long terms to wait to make the experience seem super serious or mystically special.

I think that all you need to get in bogu is the willingness to try and the fundamental skill to not hurt anybody while you do it. There are things that you will never understand until you put on the bogu and have a go at sparring, so past a certain point forgoing wearing it doesn't make sense.

[zaemon]

My dojo had a 9 month training program. You had to finish the training. My mentor told me that the longer spent in basic the better. There is no fast way to be good so you might as well suck in the beginners class. I remember glancing longingly at the keiko people and now that Im there I glance occasionally at the beginners class and am glad they are proving they are serious people by putting in their time.

The first encounter with a serious teacher is scary stuff but if you stick to the basics you learned in beginners class you will survive it.

There is no short cut. It takes years to get good. Why try to cut off a few months from what will take the rest of your life.

Cheers, and practice in earnest every time.

[b8amack]

I would think 9 months is too long. Imho, it's long enough to get "set in your ways" before you've ever even really given or received men or kote. Or worse, to think you actually know what you're doing when you get in the armour for the first time. But I guess it depends on the quality of instruction.

[zaemon]

My basics teacher was famous.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It seems strange to me, however, that this would take more than a few months of regular practice.According to my sensei, it was not uncommon years ago in Japan to spend 3 years on kihon before wearing bogu. Modern people don't have that kind of patience or time. Quite frankly, as a club we don't have the resources, instructor-wise, to keep people out of bogu for too long.

I think that all you need to get in bogu is the willingness to try and the fundamental skill to not hurt anybody while you do it.By that standard, I could put people into bogu after 1 class. What people need before putting on bogu, IMO, is a reasonably solid grounding in basics. Because once that bogu goes on, the basics development comes to a halt or goes backwards for a little while as mentally they are dealing with a bunch of other issues. If there are serious technical problems, it becomes very difficult to fix them once bogu goes on.

Another practical issue is that waiting for some months gives the person a chance to see if kendo is for them. If you don't have the patience to wait through 6 months of basic training, don't waste your money buying bogu: kendo is not for you.

[b8amack]

My basics teacher was famous.

I'm not trying to insult your instructor, I don't know him or her. I'm just saying. If it worked for you, then that's great.

[b8amack]

According to my sensei, it was not uncommon years ago in Japan to spend 3 years on kihon before wearing bogu. Modern people don't have that kind of patience or time.

But you are (he was) talking about people starting out as kids, though, right? That's a whole different ballgame. When you start out young, your body IMPROVES over time, not the reverse.

[Maccuswæl]

What people need before putting on bogu, IMO, is a reasonably solid grounding in basics.

I guess I didn't put it forward the way I intended to, but this statement seems reasonable to me. What exactly constitutes a "reasonably solid grounding in basics" I suppose is what is at issue. I didn't mean to suggest that only the ability to not hurt your partner or get yourself hurt is what this meant, though I can see that's maybe what it reads like.

What do you believe is a reasonably solid grounding in basics?

And do you have an opinion on the statement : "I sometimes wonder if people are arbitrarily pulling out long terms to wait to make the experience seem super serious or mystically special."?

[Neil Gendzwill]

What do you believe is a reasonably solid grounding in basics?We like to see that they can consistently (2/3 or better) coordinate their foot and shinai on a basic men. We like to see that they can execute all the fundamental suburi with coordinated footwork and a nice big swing. We like to see that their arm action is more or less correct and natural, that the elbow is bending and straightening at the right points in the swing. We look for any other funny stuff that might be happening with their footwork or swing, such as legs too straight or bent, improper suriashi, bad posture, other stuff case by case. We want them to put all of this together into their kiri-kaeshi. Finally we want to see that they are not too timid, that they have enough aggression that the bogu experience will not be too overwhelming for them.

And do you have an opinion on the statement : "I sometimes wonder if people are arbitrarily pulling out long terms to wait to make the experience seem super serious or mystically special."?Yes, I think that the policy does truly vary from dojo to dojo. I can see where big dojos (such as JCCC) have to move away from individualized treatment and say "you have to complete the beginners course, you have to attend so many classes etc". I can see where really small dojos might put people in bogu very soon simply for logistical reasons and just deal with the fact that resolving basic technique problems is going to be harder. It's easy to assume that your individual experience with this or any other aspect of kendo is the way it is and ought to be, when really there is quite a lot of variation.

[enkorat]

What do you believe is a reasonably solid grounding in basics?

And do you have an opinion on the statement : "I sometimes wonder if people are arbitrarily pulling out long terms to wait to make the experience seem super serious or mystically special."?

A month or so ago, an observer doing a masters thesis in business administration did an ethnographic analysis on the group dynamics of our club. It was a very interesting report in the end, and he picked out some things that I had forgotten about, and other things that I hadn't observed.

One of the things he did pick up on after watching our club operate and doing interviews is picking up on a distinct segregation in mentality, behavior, status, and a sense of "belonging" between the bogu and non-bogu members. Of course this is obvious I suppose, thinking about it, and how I viewed things when I was a beginner, and maybe reading about it here.

My view, and perhaps it may be an minority view, is that getting into bogu is not meant to be a status elevating event, or some sort of mystical experience. Maybe when we're beginners we daydream something absurd, like the sliding screen doors part when we don our bogu for the first time and get granted access to the "other part of the dojo" like some subtitled black and white movie.

Its not like that at all.

I'll spare you a description of what its like to be in bogu for the first time, since everyone's experience is different, and it will happen when it will happen for you.

But from a person with a bogu member's perspective, its almost always more interesting to practice with another person in bogu, rather than someone who wasn't.

It doesn't make too much sense to keep somoene from bogu when they're clearly ready. In additionally, once you're ready for bogu, you kind of need to get into bogu to continue getting better.

Our club operates on "when you're ready for bogu, you're ready for bogu". When I was president I used to give a very loose number for orientations and when I was sitting behind the recruitment table, but it depends on a lot of things, of which Neil sensei has gone into much clearer detail.

So, I suppose there are several options depending on your situation, dojo culture, and your own personality. In some places, you won't feel comfortable approaching the sensei to broach the topic of bogu. Some places you'll show up to do practice and your sensei will walk in front of you, drop the bag at your feet and say "put this on". Other places, you have to finish a class.

Personally because of how my club runs, I think its reasonable to ask one of the senseis the question in terms of "what areas do I need to improve in order to get into bogu"?

But I am going to give a little bit of unsolicitied advice. And, i'm afraid its going to sound really corny. And yes, rfoxmich sensei will probably find the starwars reference in what I'm about to say, because he's a sensei....

But in my experience, senseis, and by extention grading panels, and the rest of kendo aren't there to "hold you back". It might feel that way at first, but I have found that *I* am the one holding myself back.

Does that make sense?

[Maccuswæl]

We like to see that they can consistently (2/3 or better) coordinate their foot and shinai on a basic men.........Finally we want to see that they are not too timid, that they have enough aggression that the bogu experience will not be too overwhelming for them.

That is a direct and reasonable answer, thank you.




But from a person with a bogu member's perspective, its almost always more interesting to practice with another person in bogu, rather than someone who wasn't.

Agreed.




But in my experience, senseis, and by extention grading panels, and the rest of kendo aren't there to "hold you back". It might feel that way at first, but I have found that *I* am the one holding myself back.

Does that make sense?

I guess I got into Kendo the same way I've done everything, which is to jump right in and do it. I've never felt that anyone was trying to hold me back so much as I sometimes think that others might be giving greater significance to the amount of time it takes to get into bogu than necessary. At least on the internet, because I only have limited experience with other kendo people/clubs IRL.

I liken it to other activities I've been involved in, such as my motorbike hobby. I've heard all kinds of serious advice on how to learn to ride, but I learned by jumping on a bike and figuring it out for myself. I've seen others who still looked wobbly after weeks of riding with instruction, and I've always kind of thought it was because all that serious advice about easing into it caused them to lose confidence in themselves.

[enkorat]

I guess I got into Kendo the same way I've done everything, which is to jump right in and do it. I've never felt that anyone was trying to hold me back so much as I sometimes think that others might be giving greater significance to the amount of time it takes to get into bogu than necessary. At least on the internet, because I only have limited experience with other kendo people/clubs IRL.


Sure, I can see where you're coming from. The fastest way to learn something is to do it. Certainly my sensei and others have had that attitude with a lot of things, from when to start competing, leading practice, teaching, testing.

On the other hand, for some people its much harder to fix fundamental issues like kikentai-ichi, movement, and attitude once you're in bogu. And not everyone responds to the same kind of instruction the same way (thats a comment I learned from Batzu-maru sensei here that I've thought about a lot).

On here, I think most people adopt a conservative attitude because we can't see what they look like, and in the end we are not responsible for them. Plus, a lot of times (at least I think), beginners should start thinking about getting comfortable establishing a dialogue with their senseis about their training.

[Return2Kendo]

Whenever Sensei says so. Sensei will make the judgement whether basics are good enough so that in bogu you do not get hurt or hurt someone else. I've seen and experience some really off target hits from some poeple that could do well with more basics.

[Maccuswæl]

On here, I think most people adopt a conservative attitude because we can't see what they look like, and in the end we are not responsible for them. Plus, a lot of times (at least I think), beginners should start thinking about getting comfortable establishing a dialogue with their senseis about their training.

That makes sense. As far as establishing a dialogue with their sensei I admit that hadn't occurred to me. I am in a small club and sensei is very accessible. Like Neil suggested above, I guess it's easy to assume that it's this way (or should be) for everyone because of my limited experience. Or maybe everyone thinks I'm overbearing and rude...

[Shinsengumi77]

Can someone recommend when I should start doing keiko in bogu? What makes a person 'ready' for wearing a bogu? I personally want to be ready to compete as soon as I can. When should I be training in full armour? Thanks.

Don't rush so much. As everyone here has already said, your Sensei will tell you when you're ready for bogu. And remember, the focus of Kendo should not be on competition. The goal is to improve yourself in some way (or better yet, in all possible ways), not go and beat people in shiai. IMHO, shiai should probably be viewed as a way to gauge your current progress.

Patience, not just in the sense of waiting a certain amount of time, but also in controlling your own emotions and desires (and trusting those more experienced than you), is very important if you want to do Kendo seriously.

[C.Redgate]

So....
I am very new to Kendo. I spent about two months or so practicing last spring, (and totally got hooked!)and then spent the summer out of reasonable range of the club where I was practicing, (constantly dreaming of fall and kendo, and practicing kihon no kirikaeshi against invisible enemies,) but now I am back in town and really rarin' to get back at it! My Sensei told me to get a keikogi and hakama, as I had just been wearing the ones I use for Aikido, (and probably looked a bit silly). I recently got a pretty nice student loan check, and probably won't have any sort of large sum of money again anytime in the near future, so I emailed my Sensei and asked if it would be a good idea to just get one of the "starter kits" that come with keikogi, hakama, bogu, etc.... His reply was, "Well, as for the bogu it is up to you, if you think it is a good deal, then go ahead and purchase it."
So I did. It hasn't arrived yet, but I think I should be pleased with it. (It's a 4mm bogu from BoguZen, who Ogimura Sensei recommended, and it was pretty reasonable... under $500 for the set.)
So, here's my question... When my bogu arrives, which should be soon, should I bring it to kendo practice? I assume that it is a bit too early for me to actually use it, but I was thinking more along the lines of having someone help me to check and make sure it fits correctly, as I have no experience wearing or training in bogu. Should I wait until Sensei tells me to wear it? If I do wait, and something doesn't fit quite right, I'm a little nervous that I'll have a more difficult time exchanging it down the road. Any recommendations?

[Toecutter]

So, here's my question... When my bogu arrives, which should be soon, should I bring it to kendo practice? I assume that it is a bit too early for me to actually use it, but I was thinking more along the lines of having someone help me to check and make sure it fits correctly, as I have no experience wearing or training in bogu. Should I wait until Sensei tells me to wear it? If I do wait, and something doesn't fit quite right, I'm a little nervous that I'll have a more difficult time exchanging it down the road. Any recommendations?
I see you're in somerville, where do you practice? As for the bogu why not just bring it to your sensei and explain the above, ask him for advice on fit.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Absolutely, have your sensei check it for fit so that if there is a problem you can exchange it.

[C.Redgate]

Thanks. I figured that would be the thing to do. I practice at Shufukai in Randolph, though this Sunday will be my first time back since May. Went and watched the 10th Goyokai tournament there last weekend. Awesome.

[LarsCW]

I don't think there is any way for any of us to say you will need an X amount of time before you can go into bogu or expect to get into bogu.

Like Neil pointed out, you need to have your basics to a certain level and you need to show being able to deal with the possible stress you would get while practising in bogu.

I remember that there were times when I was just in bogu that everything was overwelming me alot especially when someone would be very agressive during practise.

In the end i got used to it and I think that I have moments when I am just as agressive if not more especially when I am infront of a dan or higher. I became a game.

This is all part of your personal development.

You can't expect to walk into a dojo put on a bogu and then do perfect kirikaesi at the end of the class.

I think the best you could do is speak with your sensei about your expectations and then have him\her tell you if these are reasonably or pure daydreaming

[Ada]

I know you want to get into bogu asap, but I would try and make the most of being able to strike without the fear of being hit back. It will be many years of training before you experience this feeling again and at the moment you are getting it for free! :-)