Two Short Swords

[R.J.]

Hello all,

This is my first post on the forum. Hopefully, I'm posting in the right place, if not, please let me know.

My question has three parts:

1) What is the name of the sword dance traditionally practiced in Japan? I'm not talking about the sword and fan, but a two sword dance similar to the provided link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUdkQQQnOXA&feature=related

2) Has anyone heard of a style called Kendo Kuroi? I know it sounds like a bad anime name, but I was told it was a branch of Kendo involving two short swords. I'm not talking about Nito Ryu (the long and short sword).

3) That having been said, does anyone know of a sword style using two short swords (maybe wakizashi) in which warriors would dip the swords in oil before battle and light them on fire to inspire fear?


Thank you very much for your help.

[R.J.]

Any information on any of my 3 questions would be appreciated.

I've seen the two short sword method... but I can't track down the name of the style.

[pgsmith]

1) What is the name of the sword dance traditionally practiced in Japan?
Kenbu

I'm not talking about the sword and fan, but a two sword dance similar to the provided link.
The provided link is Korean Haidong Gumdo. I know of no Japanese equivalent.

2) Has anyone heard of a style called Kendo Kuroi?
No

3) That having been said, does anyone know of a sword style using two short swords (maybe wakizashi) in which warriors would dip the swords in oil before battle and light them on fire to inspire fear?
No

Any information on any of my 3 questions would be appreciated.
Try not to be too impatient as we're all adults here, and so we work during the day and often can't immediately respond to enquiries. Also, since this is a kendo forum, enquiries regarding things other than kendo, such as yours, can go unanswered for even longer periods.

Cheers,

[Raffa]

Hello R.J.
The use of two short sword is very rare, actually is related to Nito ryu, with the name of Nito Kodachi.
As far as i know this peculiar style is very rare.
The few example i know are the following:
1- Shinkage ryu-This koryu has a kata where a kenshi sitted in seiza draw his short sword and the short sword of an attacker, usig both to defeat him.

2-Tendo Ryu - This koryu has some kata based on the use of two kodachi.
This school is specialized in th use of Naginata. Obviously when the enemy comes into close quarters the rely on the use of short weapons, so i think that many other Naginata/Yari ryu will have similar kata. If you want to know more on this subject i think that maybe this is the best area where to search.

[Ookami7]

Another good place to check is the archives at E-budo.com
This question has been asked before. The above info is correct from what I remember from that thread. Check out www.e-budo.com
Hope that helps you out.

[R.J.]

Thank you all for your help! I'll look into the topics you've listed and let you know if I have any further questions.

[Andrew S]

Hello R.J.
The use of two short sword is very rare, actually is related to Nito ryu, with the name of Nito Kodachi.
As far as i know this peculiar style is very rare.
The few example i know are the following:
1- Shinkage ryu-This koryu has a kata where a kenshi sitted in seiza draw his short sword and the short sword of an attacker, usig both to defeat him.

I believe the Yagyu Shingan Ryu (technically a jujutsu-heiho system) uses the same approach.

[R.J.]

Did the dance originate from actual battlefield tactics? I know the woman in the link that I posted was doing Korean Haidong Gumdo, but I believe Haidong Gumdo came from Kendo, did it not? Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the now performance style of Kenbu didn't come from an actual combat style.

Also, I looked into Shinkage Ryu and there appears to be two. One is translated as Divine Shadow and the other as New Shadow. Are there different styles called Shinkage Ryu, or is this just a case of translation word choice? By two styles, I'm not referring to the brach in Edo and in... I forget the other location; one I mean is two different teachings of the same name.

Just a final confirmation: nobody has ever heard of a fear technique in which warriors would oil their swords and light them on fire?

[R.J.]

*branch

*What, not one.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the now performance style of Kenbu didn't come from an actual combat style.
I agree that maybe you are wrong. I found the following on Wikipedia:

Kenbu draws its origins from the Gekken Kaisha (撃剣会社, lit. 'fencing company') created by Sakakibara Kenkichi (榊原健吉) in 1872. The Gekken Kaisha toured Japan, engaging in 'fencing performances' (撃剣興行, gekken kougyou) which quickly became popular.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenshibu#cite_note-0) Many modern schools of kenbu derive from other traditions, but Sakakibara's Gekken Kaisha was the first to explore the form.
So while Kenbu may derive from sword traditions, that is not the same as coming from an "actual combat style".



Just a final confirmation: nobody has ever heard of a fear technique in which warriors would oil their swords and light them on fire?
I have seen something like this at cheesy Hawaiian Luaus. That and Krod Mandoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire.

[John Seavitt]

It's my impression that the Araki-ryu iai folks in the US under Robert Corrella also study a separate kenbu tradition. They have a web presence, as I recall. Regardless, it's one example, though as mentioned previously it is late-developing tradition (late 1800s irrc ).

John

see old thread <http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-15057.html>

[Neil Gendzwill]

I believe Haidong Gumdo came from Kendo, did it not?Kinda/sorta. There's some kendo dna in there, but a lot of it is just made up. Many kendoka are less than complimentary about Haidong Gumdo.

Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan. Certainly there's nothing like that in kendo. There isn't any kata where one person wields two weapons at once, although we allow it in competition (one short, one long).

[xvikingx]

Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan.
Tendo-ryu: two short swords.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281@N08/2460687709/in/set-72157604860006665/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281@N08/2461520892/in/set-72157604860006665/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7762281@N08/2460687595/in/set-72157604860006665/
Can't tell you the nuts and bolts behind it (didn't get that far), but I can tell you they don't dip them in oil and light them on fire.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan.

As mentioned in the 4th post, there are a number of koryu schools that have two sword kata. In addition to the few mentioned, to the best of my knowledge, there are kata with two swords in the following non-comprehensive list of Koryu schools*:
Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
Shingyoto-Ryu Kenjutsu
Shinto Muso Ryu
Tatsumi Ryu
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Hyoho

*none of these employ flaming swords as far as I know.

xvikingx,
Thanks for the link to the Tendo Ryu pic's. There are a few of us here in the US practicing these and they are pretty interesting.

[Abramo]

Setting shinai on fire and having keiko sounds like a great thing for an enbu. Or a farewell keiko. Or a dare.



Or a Jackass(C) episode.


Those nito kodachi are very cool. I take it they make sense in a Naginata setting then?

[Josh Reyer]

I believe the Yagyu Shingan Ryu (technically a jujutsu-heiho system) uses the same approach.Actually, I'm aware of no Shinkage-ryu kata that is kodachi vs. kodachi, nor of any that are seated. I suspect Raffa is really thinking of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, rather than (Yagyu) Shinkage Ryu.


Also, I looked into Shinkage Ryu and there appears to be two. One is translated as Divine Shadow and the other as New Shadow. Are there different styles called Shinkage Ryu, or is this just a case of translation word choice? By two styles, I'm not referring to the brach in Edo and in... I forget the other location; one I mean is two different teachings of the same name.There are a number of schools that derive from the Shinkage-ryu of Kamiizumi Hidetsuna. Kamiizumi wrote it "New Shade", and also later as "New Reflection" (different "kage" characters). Various other derived schools used different combinations, such as "Divine Shade/Shadow", or "Divine Reflection".* Then there are some karate and jujutsu styles that are completely unrelated.

*According to the history of Jikishin Kage Ryu (and also Kashima Shinryu), Kamiizumi learned Shinkage Ryu (Divine Reflection) from Matsumoto Bizen no Kami, and later changed the name to Shinkage Ryu (New Shade). However, this is contradicted by materials actually written by Kamiizumi.

[xvikingx]

xvikingx,
Thanks for the link to the Tendo Ryu pic's. There are a few of us here in the US practicing these and they are pretty interesting.
So there are people that advanced? Good to hear. I was under the impression that most of the advanced stuff was not practiced but as I mentioned in the comment portion on one of my pics I've been out of it for a while now.
Do you ever make it out to Shubukan?

[Raffa]

Actually, I'm aware of no Shinkage-ryu kata that is kodachi vs. kodachi, nor of any that are seated. I suspect Raffa is really thinking of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, rather than (Yagyu) Shinkage Ryu.
I little research a made gived the following result:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/yagyu-shingan-ryu-katchu-yawara/4773466
So it seems that (apart of the Power Ranger-like armor in the photo) there is such a technique in the Yagyu shingan Ryu regarding fighting in armor. The kata i remember was another concept. In that, a man sitted in seiza defend himself drawing his short sword and that of the attacker (who use a daito), using both to obtain victory. I am not a Shinkage Ryu expert (or kenjutsu expert to say it all) so sincerely i don't know which branch or derivation of the school was, sorry.


Kinda/sorta. There's some kendo dna in there, but a lot of it is just made up. Many kendoka are less than complimentary about Haidong Gumdo.

Historically, I can't see why there would be a legitimate two short sword kata, but I've been wrong about such stuff before and there were certainly many different schools in old Japan. Certainly there's nothing like that in kendo. There isn't any kata where one person wields two weapons at once, although we allow it in competition (one short, one long).

I agree that in normal kenjutsu/fencing use two short swords will be of no use comparing it with the classical daito-shoto style, but for a koryu who teach the use of "long" weapon things are different.
If the enemy moved too close or if you had lost your long weapon is reasonable to think to use two short sword, as the advantageous distance for a daito would be already surpassed. I thik this is the reason that drives these koryu in developing tanto/kodachi kata. As far as i know, even european pikemen use a short sword when the need arise, in a similar way.
I think that a taiatari with two shoto Vs a daito would create a difficult situation for the daito user. For the same reason (but with opposite objective), in kendo Nito taiatari you must have the shoto hand in front of the daito hand. On the contrary it would be too simple to hit the aite without moving, it wouldn't be fair...

[Raffa]

Neil, you definitely change your avatar!! What a change!!
(the new one is quite scaring..)

[R.J.]

Interesting! Thanks for continuing to look into this.

The swords on fire were never practice based... they were for raiding at night. Regardless, I don't know where the thought came from, and I can't find any research to back it up... so I'm just going to leave it be before you all start to believe I'm citing anime as fact :)

In the Tendo Ryu pics, would those swords be considered Kodachi or Wakizashi? They look to be the length I had in mind, but when I looked into Kodachi online, the Kodachi looked much shorter. Is there a length range on Kodachi? I thought there was a fixed length.

[Oroshi]

Interesting! Thanks for continuing to look into this.

The swords on fire were never practice based... they were for raiding at night. Regardless, I don't know where the thought came from, and I can't find any research to back it up... so I'm just going to leave it be before you all start to believe I'm citing anime as fact :)
Swords on fire is ridiculous. It makes as much sense as setting fire to your gun. It wouldn't aid the wielder in any way; it would hinder them significantly. In the realms of fantasy I'm sure it sounds cool but I doubt any practitioner of swordsmanship would take it seriously.


In the Tendo Ryu pics, would those swords be considered Kodachi or Wakizashi? They look to be the length I had in mind, but when I looked into Kodachi online, the Kodachi looked much shorter. Is there a length range on Kodachi? I thought there was a fixed length.

Tendo ryu calls them kodachi, but many schools of swordsmanship make absolutely no distinction between kodachi and wakizashi.

(here's another picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oroshi/3518203912/in/set-72157617937783874/)

[Bruce Mitchell]

In the Tendo Ryu pics, would those swords be considered Kodachi or Wakizashi? They look to be the length I had in mind, but when I looked into Kodachi online, the Kodachi looked much shorter. Is there a length range on Kodachi? I thought there was a fixed length.
As mentioned in the above post, in Tendo Ryu these are referred to as kodachi. The range in length of kodachi/wakizashi is typically 39 to 59cm. The nomenclature used (wakizashi vs kodachi) generally reflects the language of the times, not a different type of weapon. Kodachi/wakizashi first showed up around the Muromachi period when wearing two swords came into style, but there are some Nanbokucho wakizashi out there. Some Edo wakizashi are longer than Nanbokucho wakizashi, so you will find that trying to work with a fixed definition will lead to errors. So, if you are looking at a Koryu art, then you just need to find out how they refer to the weapon (as either kodachi or wakizashi). If you go to a sword collectors group, you willl find that pretty much anything over 30cm and under 60cm is, or can be, called a wakizashi regardless of age. Another thing that you will encounter is that a number of wakizashi out there are actually naginata-naoshi, or naginata that have been cut down to make wakizashi.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Is there a length range on Kodachi? I thought there was a fixed length.Historically, no. As Bruce points out, there is a range where we apply this label, so blades between 1 and 2 shaku in length would be considered kodachi/wakizashi.

In kendo we have standardized lengths, so everyone uses the same length kodachi (55 cm overall IIRC).

I'm not sure what currently practicing koryu do regarding kodachi length. I know they usually recommend the length of the daito based on a variety of factors including the student's size and level of practice.

PS Thanks to all for correcting me on the two kodachi kata, good to know!

[pgsmith]

In the Tendo Ryu pics, would those swords be considered Kodachi or Wakizashi?
A little more clarification on this point as it's something that comes up a lot on the internet. kodachi translates as "small sword", and wakizashi translates as "middle sword", meaning it was worn in the middle with the daito on the side. The meaning is that of a secondary sword. As Neil stated, it is generally accepted these days that shorter than one foot is a tanto, and longer than two feet is a katana, in between is a wakizashi. Lots of different words for these swords are used on the internet, usually for marketing purposes. :)

[Bruce Mitchell]

So there are people that advanced? Good to hear. I was under the impression that most of the advanced stuff was not practiced but as I mentioned in the comment portion on one of my pics I've been out of it for a while now.
Do you ever make it out to Shubukan?
I was at the Shubukan dojo in 2000, but since my daughter's birth in 2001 I haven't made it back. Maybe next year.

I first got to see the nito waza in 1999 at Asilomar in Monterey, California, when Yano Sensei did them with Tokunaga Sensei on tachi side (I've got some photos and there is video of this). This seminar we all got to see some fantastic stuff, such as nito, Jyo, and some very advanced waza, stuff from the Omote no Oku set (I've got some nice pictures of Sawada Sensei working with an advanced group on Shin no kurai) , Ohnaginata Oku set, and even a couple of things from more advanced sets that I have no idea of the names.

In about 2002 Yoshida Sadako Sensei taught a Tendo Ryu seminar in San Jose and taught three of us the first nito waza set (I believe that there are two sets). She was really great and it is too bad that she is no longer with us. But you are correct, most of the advanced stuff is not practiced very much. 90-99% of our practice here is spent on the big three (Shodan, Chudan, Gedan).

[ScottUK]

Just a final confirmation: nobody has ever heard of a fear technique in which warriors would oil their swords and light them on fire?Oh man I am so off to Google for this. Pwnage. Back soon with my findings. And some kerosene.

[willszenith]

Oh man I am so off to Google for this. Pwnage. Back soon with my findings. And some kerosene.


http://www.tentonhammer.com/system/files/images/BURN.jpg

[R.J.]

:)

Sweet! We have historical evidence!

[Raffa]

Tendo Ryu Nito Kodachi kata video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zy9NCaaMCo&feature=player_embedded