Mummy I'm going to the park to play Kendo

[Musha]

Hi all, after reading a lot of posts I have noticed that people seem to think you can play Kendo or they are Playing Kendo. What do these people think the definition is of Kendo?

I thought Kendo was a Budou in the class or art and music that you learn. I have read many times it is not a sport, like if you said "I'm going to play golf". Concerning Kendo wouldn't you say "I'm going to practice kendo", "I'm going to learn kendo" or just "I'm going to Kendo" Not I'm going playing Kendo. I think some people must have a problem.... :cool:

[Neil Gendzwill]

"play" is the common term, a common translation used by Japanese people. It may not be exactly accurate, but deal with it :).

[aru-ma]

"play" is the common term, a common translation used by Japanese people. It may not be exactly accurate, but deal with it :).

Although most of the time, infact, everytime when I hear a japanese talk about doing kendo is always "kendo o suru/kendo suru" which translates to "do kendo" the same when they say play tennis, it's "tennis o suru/tennis suru" so they don't use the word "asobi" (play) in terms of doing/playing a sporting/martial arts actvity in most cases. Therefore I think the word "suru" in this case is tranlated/mistraslated as play in terms of sporting/budou activities.

now that I've explained this much, you've probably known about this haven't you? :rolleyes: besides, "I'm going to kendo" just sounds gramatically wrong

[Musha]

In Japanese 'Suru' is always with few exceptions translated as 'doing'. Actually most of the times I have seen asobi it has not been linked with children, but doing things with your friends. '友達と東京ディズニーランドに遊びにいきます' [Tomodachi to tokyo dizuni-rando ni asobi ni ikimasu' literly I'm going to play with my friends at Tokyo Disneyland. I'm sorry but when people say I am going to play Kendo, it sounds like some thing not to be taken seriouse. I know it isn't :D, but you must think of Kendo as real combat not just a game...
But I also found another post on this silly me :D in 2002, Mingshi said

"A while ago some 7th/8th Dan Sensei asked me after practice, "How long have you played Kendo?" I believe I do not qualify for "study Kendo" in their point of view. If you've ever consider something as a hobby that you do during your spare time, what else can be a better word than "play" and "player"?"

So maybe actually how serious you take it changes the word... :ermm:

[AlexM]

This issue was debated a while back. Check out this fun little thread. :)

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=599

[Yowai]

Kendo is a sport and if a person is enjoying Kendo, that person is playing Kendo.

If you people were less of a fanatic daydreaming medieval samurai combat, maybe less newcomers will be scared away from this cult?

[ALI G]

Kendo is a sport and if a person is enjoying Kendo, that person is playing Kendo.

Diss iz probablyz whyz youz kendoz neva accomprished anytingz....

[Nanbanjin]

In Japanese 'Suru' is always with few exceptions translated as 'doing'. Actually most of the times I have seen asobi it has not been linked with children, but doing things with your friends. '友達と東京ディズニーランドに遊びにいきます' [Tomodachi to tokyo dizuni-rando ni asobi ni ikimasu' literly I'm going to play with my friends at Tokyo Disneyland. I'm sorry but when people say I am going to play Kendo, it sounds like some thing not to be taken seriouse. I know it isn't :D, but you must think of Kendo as real combat not just a game...

In Japanese 'する'　is used to mean 'to play' in reference to sport. You don't say '友達とテニスを遊びました'.
If it makes you feel better to pretend that kendo is on a higher spiritual plane than other physical activities then good luck.
It takes more courage to face a good fast bowler in cricket than it does to face a good kendo player. You will have to push yourself harder to play soccer well.
If I have made people angry by writing this it is only because they are treating kendo like a religion.
I play kendo and I enjoy it. If you want to wank kendo then don't expect me to join in.

[Nanbanjin]

In Japanese 'する'　is used to mean 'to play' in reference to sport. You don't say '友達とテニスを遊びました'.
If it makes you feel better to pretend that kendo is on a higher spiritual plane than other physical activities then good luck.
It takes more courage to face a good fast bowler in cricket than it does to face a good kendo player. You will have to push yourself harder to play soccer well.
If I have made people angry by writing this it is only because they are treating kendo like a religion.
I play kendo and I enjoy it. If you want to wank kendo then don't expect me to join in.
Sorry, I probably went a little overboard there....
I'm just not into the mystical spiritual thing all that much.
People have been sending me hate mail and maybe this made me overwrought.

[Yowai]

From who and about what?

I don't mind receiving hate mail I feel a sense of accomplishment when I am able to dominate a person in an argument to the extent to incite a hate mail.

[Nanbanjin]

From who and about what?

I don't mind receiving hate mail I feel a sense of accomplishment when I am able to dominate a person in an argument to the extent to incite a hate mail.
From Gen'ei, I don't really know what it was about. I posted the contents here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30154#post30154)

And all I had written to incite this was "So you keep saying" and "And so YOU keep saying". Good return on investment of time I guess.

I think he got banned, though this wasn't my intention. He followed up with the following...


?????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't worry you would probley put that up in hopes of getting me kicked off. But not to worry you are truly worthless and are not worth beating the heck out of you. And always remember your Dumb Founded!!!


Strange young man.
Not much of a trophy if collecting hate mail's your thing.

I am new to forums, and I find balancing my views with trying not to cause offense causes me to prevaricate. You can see this in the above.

Most of your arguments follow a similar thread, so I am guessing that you don't write entirely for the sake of controversy.

Back on the topic, 'play' seems like the most appropriate verb to me.
'Respect' is one thing, but is it really necessary to worship kendo like the second coming? This "though shalt not use the name of kendo in vain" gibberish would be laughable if it wasn't so depressing.

There I go again! Stating my damned views! I'll try not to follow up with an apology this time.

[Musha]

Again Kendo wo suru never! translates as play, copy and past this into http://uk.altavista.com/babelfish 剣道をする even that does not translate it as play Kendo :wink:.

Nanbanjin you said "If it makes you feel better to pretend that kendo is on a higher spiritual plane than other physical activities then good luck.
It takes more courage to face a good fast bowler in cricket than it does to face a good kendo player. You will have to push yourself harder to play soccer well.
If I have made people angry by writing this it is only because they are treating kendo like a religion.
I play kendo and I enjoy it. If you want to wank kendo then expect me to join in."

I have been studying Japanese and culture, Buddhism for a long time. I hate some peoples view of these things. When I went to Japan I found that it was really like England. Japan had pagoda and Daimyou, England had castles and rich lords :D. Japan has Buddhism England has Christianity. Japan has Samurai England has Knights.
The only difference is that Buddhism tells people that they should improve them selves to reach Nirvana so most people in Japan still want to try and improve them selves though kendo and other activities like music and art. Maybe even though sports from the west like Baseball. I don't think most peoples wish would be to be a bum or lay-about :D.

Apart from that kendo is a Budo if you were a Samurai solder forced to fight for your Daimyou you would have to learn a Budo from your Daimyou from a very young age. Then when you were ready you would go into battle and hopefully use some of the techniques you had learned and come out alive. To learn that budo you would use a bokken to learn forms then later on in history a Shinai and Bougu to practice those techniques under pressure.

On the other hand say cricket was invented as an activity for maybe a school or university to help people be competitive and work together. It is not in practice for any serious event where you could be killed. Like a war.

But any way I am not saying Kendo is not fun, I usually take things to seriously and end up getting frustrated with my self and quitting :D. But I don't think you should ever think of Kendo as a sport, when doing Kendo kata you must stike with viger aiming to strike down your partner.

I would like to know how many people that do think it is a sport do get far in Kendo.

[Musha]

P.s Yowai,
I don't mind receiving hate mail I feel a sense of accomplishment when I am able to dominate a person in an argument to the extent to incite a hate mail.
If you feel like this I bet you must be a very happy person :D. I used to try and start arguments on chat rooms at school 4 years ago when I was 14, I don't know how old you may be, but I'm sure you will get bored of it :D. If not I wish I had such a cheap hobby in my life :(.

[Nanbanjin]

Again Kendo wo suru never! translates as play, copy and past this into http://uk.altavista.com/babelfish 剣道をする even that does not translate it as play Kendo :wink:.

Try translating テニスをする in bablefish. Comes out as "The tennis is done". Just how long has the tennis been baking for? Are you suggesting that this is the correct way to speak English?



I have been studying Japanese and culture, Buddhism for a long time. I hate some peoples view of these things. When I went to Japan I found that it was really like England. Japan had pagoda and Daimyou, England had castles and rich lords :D. Japan has Buddhism England has Christianity. Japan has Samurai England has Knights.
The only difference is that Buddhism tells people that they should improve them selves to reach Nirvana so most people in Japan still want to try and improve them selves though kendo and other activities like music and art. Maybe even though sports from the west like Baseball. I don't think most peoples wish would be to be a bum or lay-about :D.


Read: "The West and East are the same, but for the fact that Westerners are bums and are not interested in improving themselves".



Apart from that kendo is a Budo if you were a Samurai solder forced to fight for your Daimyou you would have to learn a Budo from your Daimyou from a very young age. Then when you were ready you would go into battle and hopefully use some of the techniques you had learned and come out alive. To learn that budo you would use a bokken to learn forms then later on in history a Shinai and Bougu to practice those techniques under pressure.


Kendo in its present form was developed during the Meiji period to prevent the loss of Kenjitsu. It was created in a deliberate fashion and did not develop organically as you seem to be suggesting.
England might not have developed a way of maintaining sword combat skills, but at the time they were far too busy roaming the seas shooting people and blowing up things with cannons. Sword fighting probably didn't seem all that relevant.

In ancient Japan exactly what percentage of the Japanese population were Samurai and were forced to study budo anyway? The perpetuated fallacy that all Japanese were Samurai was first introduced by militarists keen to swell the ranks of the army with unwitting farmers. "You will all go to war and you will die for your country because you are all Japanese and all Japanese are Samurai". And until then these farmers hadn't even been allowed to carry swords.

Do you really do kendo because it teaches you how to face battle and death?
If you are ever in a modern battle chances are you wont even see the person who kills you.



On the other hand say cricket was invented as an activity for maybe a school or university to help people be competitive and work together. It is not in practice for any serious event where you could be killed. Like a war.


Try, cricket was developed so men could compete without being encouraged to hack each other to pieces with bits of steel.



But any way I am not saying Kendo is not fun, I usually take things to seriously and end up getting frustrated with my self and quitting :D. But I don't think you should ever think of Kendo as a sport, when doing Kendo kata you must stike with viger aiming to strike down your partner.


Remind me never to partner you for kata practice.



I would like to know how many people that do think it is a sport do get far in Kendo.

Competition kendo is a sport, so probably a lot of people who win competitions.

[Neil Gendzwill]

But I don't think you should ever think of Kendo as a sport, when doing Kendo kata you must stike with viger aiming to strike down your partner.
Remind me never to partner you for kata practice.

Well, provided he's any good I want a guy like that for kata. Cut at the proper target, with proper maai and with reasonable intent, otherwise the kata is just empty dancing. There's another useless tangent for you...

Back to topic: Musha - kendo is both sport and budo. If you are ever in shiai, you had better think of it to a certain extent as sport, because knowing the rules is crucial to winning. But use of "play" is somewhat seperate from whether you consider it sport or budo or both - I have heard the term from sports-oriented and budo-oriented instructors. My own instructor uses the word "play" and I can assure you he is not a sports kendo guy. His explanation was that, serious as we take it, any match without real swords is a game so play is appropriate.

[Musha]

Read: "The West and East are the same, but for the fact that Westerners are bums and are not interested in improving themselves". When did I say this Nanbanjin :confused:. I meant that I think Buddhism is one of the reasons that some Japanese people practice Kendo. Try reading the book 'Koryu bujutsu'. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890536040/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-9296204-4767602

There is a hole chapter about Bujyutsu and Buddhism :D.

[ACRAWFORD]

I think that to play is a term that should not be associated with any Martial Art. However I have been trying to think of a better way of expressing it in a statement or conversation and am at a loss. I normally use the term train or study in place of play but they too do not seem to accomplish the actual activity of doing Kendo or any other art.





Andre Crawford
FT Hood TX

[mingshi]

Argh... Don't you play the videotape as well? When I use the verb, especially in Chinese, it was meant to "get thing going"...

Even if people use the wrong wording, they practice with the correct mentality. Just that not everything can be verbalized.

[Nanbanjin]

Argh... Don't you play the videotape as well? When I use the verb, especially in Chinese, it was meant to "get thing going"...

Even if people use the wrong wording, they practice with the correct mentality. Just that not everything can be verbalized.
Good point. You play musical instruments too.

For those kendo worshippers out there the word practice could never be used however. After all, the word practice can be used in conjunction with sexual acts, as in "practice sodomy". We could never have kendo tainted by that sort of filth!

Personally I like to use the verb fondle. "I fondle kendo" - has a nice ring to it. Any other suggestions?

[Nanbanjin]

When did I say this Nanbanjin :confused:. I meant that I think Buddhism is one of the reasons that some Japanese people practice Kendo.

You wrote:

The only difference is that Buddhism tells people that they should improve them selves to reach Nirvana so most people in Japan still want to try and improve them selves though kendo and other activities like music and art.

In other words "the single difference between most people in Japan and people in the England is that due to the influence of Buddhism people in Japan try to improve themselves". Or "people in Japan try to improve themselves, people in England do not. This is the only difference between people in the two countries".

[Musha]

Your getting strange Nanbanjin I don't you know you got to 4th dan :ermm: .

Would not want to know what he does with his shinai at night :(.

[Nanbanjin]

Your getting strange Nanbanjin :paranoid: I don't you know you got to 4th dan :ermm: .

Would not want to know what he does with his shinai at night :paranoid: .... :D
Exactly how am I being paranoid?
Do you even know what the word means?

[Nanbanjin]

...I don't you know you got to 4th dan :ermm: .
I bribed the examiners of course! That's the only way rude people like me can get by.


Would not want to know what he does with his shinai at night :(.

Oh, how witty! The next time I make a sexual inuendo I will warn you so you aren't too surprised.
I can feel one coming on now.

"Men stroke". I am sure I've seen that one used before on this forum. Freud would have a field day.

[Musha]

:paranoid:
smilie does not work for some reason. You would understand if it did :). Also im not saying this is the rule and it is changing all the time, but it seems that about 20% of people in England do not have any hobbies what so ever except for going to the pub and watching football.
Every where in Japan there were girls carrying Kyudou bows, people in football or baseball club uniforms going to matches. It is sad that it is not like that in England :( my part any way :).

I can't talk any way spending so much time on the PC :D.

[Nanbanjin]

:paranoid:
smilie does not work for some reason. You would understand if it did :). Also im not saying this is the rule and it is changing all the time, but it seems that about 20% of people in England do not have any hobbies what so ever except for going to the pub and watching football.
Every where in Japan there were girls carrying Kyudou bows, people in football or baseball club uniforms going to matches. It is sad that it is not like that in England :( my part any way :).

I can't talk any way spending so much time on the PC :D.
Sorry, I thought you were being rude. Maybe I am :paranoid:

I agree that people should get out more. I remember listening to a politician in Australia called Barry Jones talking about how as we grow older and our society has more leisure time we should be more like the Japanese and participate in activities that will keep us healthy into old age. He would certainly agree with you.
I don't know what happened to all the leisure time we were supposed to be getting!
I spent a year at high school in Japan and was really impressed by the amount of activities that were available, and by the general high standard of skill in those activities. That was a while ago now and things might have changed. I that respect I agree with you.

[Jearom]

Kendo, to me, is a sport.
Do those who practise european fencing think of killing their opponent or scoring a point?
There`s to much wannabe samurais in Kendo, like children playing cowboys and indians.
Fine, keep the link with Japan and it`s Samurai history but don`t play with your katana at home thinking you`re Musashi.
Harsh words I know and I beg for forgivness if you take offence, sumimasen.
But come on, don`t you train for winning in Shiai, or do you really train to kill someone with a sword in a duel?

[Yowai]

Kata, to me, is a complete waste of time. Rehearsed movements with bokutous have absolutely no benefit in a real shiai. It's silly dancing. I'd rather practice kihon.


If you feel like this I bet you must be a very happy person . I used to try and start arguments on chat rooms at school 4 years ago when I was 14, I don't know how old you may be, but I'm sure you will get bored of it . If not I wish I had such a cheap hobby in my life .

Yes, I am a happy person! Computers were not available when I was 14 but I am sure that I would have loved to have one. I am roughly 30 years old: still young and cocky!

Do you ever get in shouting matches in Tokyo? Most Japanese are wimps! They will act tough and tell chest-to-chest with you, but will wimper at the slightest indication of imminent violence. But I am not a ruffian, I'd rather enjoy the shouting. If a young junnsa from a nearby hashutsujo interferes, tell him to shut up and he will not know what to do.

[Musha]

Maybe because you can't do it Yowai :D. In Shiai you can do any thing you want to an extent but you will not improve. At home almost every morning in front of a mirror in my living room. I do suburi and some techniques that I have learned from a book and in class one day with a Shinai that is light and long and straight and much easier to ring with your hands. If you know what I mean. Then I do the same with a bokken that is much heavier and harder to use :(.
I'm not saying I am the best Kendoka, far from it. Not even got my Ikkyu yet. But last time I did suburi I was the only person that did not lift the shinai behind my head.

Yowai if you can handle a heavy Bokuto and do perfect kata Kendo is child’s play :D.

[ALI G]

I don't mind receiving hate mail I feel a sense of accomplishment when I am able to dominate a person in an argument to the extent to incite a hate mail. Booyaaz....Gettingz Hate mailz....Dat iz suchz an accomprishmentz!!!! You muzt B So Proudz!!!!

Nextz timez youz takez a ladyz homez..youz can imprezz herz by showingz da hate mailz....Wait....whyz woodz a ladyz go homez wiz a scrubz???? Neva mindz.......

[Yowai]

Apparently, your youth completely outweighs my experience. Sorry.

[ALI G]

Apparently, your youth completely outweighs my experience. Sorry.

No....Itz Yo Mama dat outweighz us all.....

In factz...when yo mama steppedz on da train trax....da warning litez came onz......

yo mamaz so fatz dat when she getz on a scale it seyz..."one at a time pleaz...."

[mystic_kendoka]

i know a good one, not to insult his mother or anything, i feel pulling someones family into an argument is 1)stupid 2)'mean'

anyway, yo momma's so fat, that she ran into the road, and as i tried to drive round her, i ran out of gas...

[mystic_kendoka]

more of a joke than an insult...

[pennjennings]

Boxing is a sport. The vast majority of people that box take it very seriously. Boxing is also exteremely effective in actual combat. Not even a fool plays at boxing.

I'm new to Kendo but I take it very seriously. Although Kendo could be used in actual combat and is based on combat, if the intent was actually combat I think that we would learn many more techniques even if we never used them.

Thats just my Opinion. I'm off to Kendo. Although I think of it as more of a sport that an actual combat system, I take it very seriously and give my full attention when I practice. I never, EVER play at it.

Don't hurt me.. this is my first post... hurt me next time =)

[LNGUYEN]

Everyone talk about "practice", and "play", how about "learn". We don't know enough to play with it or practice, we are there to learn.

[pennjennings]

Everyone talk about "practice", and "play", how about "learn". We don't know enough to play with it or practice, we are there to learn.
I think that goes without saying.

It sounds like most of the people on the Forum have the same strong feelings about Kendo. Why we study/learn/practice kendo varies, just the way we express our feelings it is different. They are all valid... except maybe the play part. =)

[Musha]

LNGUYEN I think I said that and agree with you, I don't think any one can fully learn Kendo.

I don't know much about boxing training even if I like to watch it when it comes on tv now and again :D. But it seems like you learn simple techniques and work on your punching effectiveness using bags and your trainer. Actually I learned kick boxing for a wile when I was young. We did a lot of partner work punching your partners mitt and learning to block. But when you got to a certain level you could go into matches. You could also get a belt very fast like karate so you were able to compete as fast as possible.

But when I read about koryu martial arts and the samurai there aim was to do techniques without thought and never loose. Imagine your best day doing kendo and imagine if you could have that good day every day and the strongest opponent felt like a breeze to defeat. But I do not think this would ever happen to any one in this age even when the samurai were in Japan, even to Miyamoto musashi. You would never go to a battle now and use a katana :D.