Kigurai

[1stdan]

At nidojo the other night my sensei were discussing the concept of "Kigurai"
As best I can figure from what was said, Kigurai is your presence. The air or attitude you bring into the room,or dojo, when you enter. It seems liek it could be related to Seme in some sense. Please give me your take on this "Kigurai" as I think it will be a very important part of what i am learning thru kendo> Thanks in advance.

[hugo]

I've always heard kigurai described as behaving in a superior manner. I've seen it translated as "noble bearing" but that's a bit odd in English.
To my mind, the best definition is "have some class." Whether it's truly a requirement or not, I definitely notice it in the higher ranks. It's something that I'm not sure can ever be studied, but it's the sort of thing that you're definitely supposed to be taking away from being around your superiors.

[Oroshi]

Kigurai as I understand it is a kind of an imperturbable dignity and confident bearing that is acquired through extensive training of one's spirit and skill.

Or something.

[cesarekim]

The word that comes to mind is elegance...

[Usagi San]

I once ask my (japanese) sensei what kigurai was, and back then he didn't speak much portuguese, so he gave an example. He said:
- The emperor (of Japan, of course)... you look at him. He IS kigurai.
:cool2:
True story.

[8dragonkings]

Bad example

[bullet08]

Bad example

how about mark messier?

pete

[Abramo]

I once ask my (japanese) sensei what kigurai was, and back then he didn't speak much portuguese, so he gave an example. He said:
- The emperor (of Japan, of course)... you look at him. He IS kigurai.
:cool2:
True story.

Usagi san, do you find the translation to Portuguese "brio" to be adequate?

[Usagi San]

Bad example

Because...?

Abramo I think it's somewhere around there: brio, presença, (boa) postura...

[8dragonkings]

Because...?



Well, I'll admit that I know little about the Japanese royal family. But what I do know is that while outwardly they are very fine examples, I cannot say that it's not all tatemae. Judging by the treatment of the crown princess while I was in Japan and past history, I would say that they are not an example I want to follow.

Thats just me and my opinion. For what its worth.

[PabloY]

Dignified bearing comes to mind as the best definition. Confidence without cockiness perhaps?

[Usagi San]

Well, I'll admit that I know little about the Japanese royal family. But what I do know is that while outwardly they are very fine examples, I cannot say that it's not all tatemae. Judging by the treatment of the crown princess while I was in Japan and past history, I would say that they are not an example I want to follow.


Maybe I didn't explain myself well. I know sometimes (a lot of times) my english it's not the richest one... just like my sensei's portuguese is not the best.
But what's important here, IMHO, it's not what you or I think about the japanese royal family. After all this is not a tabloid nor an history class.
If I mentioned the episode it's because it was a real one, because it was related to the concept in discussion, and specially because I obtained the answer above (from a nanadan) asking precisely the same question.

As we say here: "I sold the fish exactly by the same price I bought it."

I understood what he meant.

[DCPan]

Tatsuya Nakadai in Kagemusha...when he shifted from playing the pauper to the shogun he is impersonating...that's kigurai! :D

YMMV

[Hisham]

Can the meaning of Kigurai include charisma?

[Abramo]

The official ZNKR kata instruction manual in English uses the word "pride" to describe kigurai. I belive it wasn't brought up here because of its possible negative conotation? But in any case I think pride is a very good word to describe it, if I get the idea of kigurai.

And btw, fwiw, ciafbithxbai, imho pride is a quality to be nurtured, negative conotation notwithstanding.

[JByrd]

Kigurai as I understand it is a kind of an imperturbable dignity and confident bearing that is acquired through extensive training of one's spirit and skill.


That's the closest definition I've read yet on this thread to my own understanding of the term.

Etymologically, I take it that ki = spirit, and kurai = rank.

The term charisma is sometimes applied to people who have charm, but charm is not necessarily rooted in ability. In that respect, they are not the same. I would say kigurai is closer to gravitas than to charisma.

It's one thing to know, but it is something else to know that you know. A person who exhibits kigurai has a very good reason to trust in his or her abilities; they have been proven over many years of diligent training and application. In that way, kigurai also implies a substantial degree of maturity.

[hl1978]

WEll I just watched the dog whisperer.

Any relationship to how dogs immediately perceive someone who is the alpha?

[DCPan]

Any relationship to how dogs immediately perceive someone who is the alpha?

In that case, my kigurai has serious problems as Jumbo still thinks he's the alpha in my house :D

[Shinsengumi77]

I don't know if it helps or not, but once when discussing the 3rd kata, when the shidachi advances forward after parrying the thrust from the uchidachi, I was told that the shidachi advances with kigurai, to the effect of "if you stop stepping back I will run you through." It seems to me to be a very dignified confidence. Maybe I'm totally off.

[H.Sandsleth]

WEll I just watched the dog whisperer.

Any relationship to how dogs immediately perceive someone who is the alpha?

Lol, I think you have a point there. "Stay calm and assertive".

[DCPan]

I don't know if it helps or not, but once when discussing the 3rd kata, when the shidachi advances forward after parrying the thrust from the uchidachi, I was told that the shidachi advances with kigurai, to the effect of "if you stop stepping back I will run you through." It seems to me to be a very dignified confidence. Maybe I'm totally off.

I believe it's called "kurai-zume"
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6423

[xvikingx]

Any relationship to how dogs immediately perceive someone who is the alpha?
Meaning do you have to sniff the other guy's balls?

[ben]

I have been thinkng a lot about 気位. I read somewhere that it is sometimes translated into English as “arrogance”. I don't think this means a rude kind of arrogance, but that sometimes very great self-confidence can seem to others as a kind of rudeness or arrogance.

Here are two kinds of swordsman. I am fascinated by this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE8QNT_vmvI)from the movie 雨あがる. He is very humble and apologetic, even though he is meant to be quite skillful. In this scene at least he seems not to have any 気位 as I understand it.

On the other hand there is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIelVvDcxSY) one. This is probably what most people think of in relation to kigurai.

By the way, both characters were created by the great 黒澤明. b

[H.Sandsleth]

Meaning do you have to sniff the other guy's balls? You don´t? You´re lucky:spchless:

[xvikingx]

I have been thinkng a lot about 気位. I read somewhere that it is sometimes translated into English as “arrogance”. I don't think this means a rude kind of arrogance, but that sometimes very great self-confidence can seem to others as a kind of rudeness or arrogance.

Here are two kinds of swordsman. I am fascinated by this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE8QNT_vmvI)from the movie 雨あがる. He is very humble and apologetic, even though he is meant to be quite skillful. In this scene at least he seems not to have any 気位 as I understand it.

On the other hand there is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIelVvDcxSY) one. This is probably what most people think of in relation to kigurai.

Oroshi pretty much nailed it here:

Kigurai as I understand it is a kind of an imperturbable dignity and confident bearing that is acquired through extensive training of one's spirit and skill.
So it has little to do with an outward display of confidence. For example the character in Ameagaru, although humble and apologetic, clearly has a presence and is confident in his abilities. He puts himself into dangerous even deadly situations without hesitation.



Now can we please get back to the ball sniffing?

[H.Sandsleth]

:dog: voff, voff

Geoff Salmon has an article in his blog about kigurai. Can´t link to it in this browser for some reason. I´ll quote it:

Vincent Long of the Irish Kendo Federation asked for some help in explaining Kigurai to his students

for some help in explaining Kigurai to his students. At first this appeared to be a fairly straightforward exercise, but as with everything related to Kendo the more you think about it, the more complicated it becomes.

In every day Japanese it means “pride” and has a slightly negative connotation – it could be taken to mean haughtiness. In kendo there are various definitions ranging from the late Ando sensei’s “loftiness of mind” to the ZNKR dictionary’s “the strength or commanding presence derived from confidence acquired through repeated practice”. When you break down the original characters to ”mind” and ”grade” you can see the logic behind these more positive kendo definitions.

I am starting to get rapidly out of my comfort zone when thinking about the subtle difference between “kihaku” strength of mind ”fukaku” depth and kigurai, but to get back to Vinnie’s question, kigurai can mean confidence, grace, the ability to dominate your opponent through strength of character. Kigurai can also be seen as fearlessness or a high level of internal energy. What it is not, is posturing, self congratulating or show-boating.

Most of us have at some time seen Kurosawa’s Seven Samurai. In the film, one of the protagonists gets involved in a dual with bokken in which his opponent loudly insists that his men attack had beaten the nuki dou of the quietly confident hero. Forced into a replay with katana, our hero modestly repeats the process, watching the baddie’s two halves go off in different directions. He then without showing any emotion, puts his sword away and walks on. This to me, is a great example of kigurai.

Kigurai becomes a required element to display in grading examinations from 4th dan upwards. This underlines the ZNKR’s view that kigurai can only be built on extensive keiko. You may well be able to explain the concept, but without putting in the thousands of hours of required practice, it is unlikely that anyone can display kigurai.

However anyone can start to build it from day one. Taking dojo etiquette seriously, making the most of seiza and mokuso and repeatedly practicing kihon with a level mind and good posture are ways to lay foundations for the splendid kigurai that you will naturally show in your yondan examination.

[b8amack]

If you guys start talking about auras...

[Oroshi]

If you guys start talking about auras...

The only aura I have is the funk of my bogu.

[b8amack]

That's all the kigurai you need.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Quite some time ago when I took my shodan exam, one of the sensei on the panel demonstrated what he wanted from us during the kata section. He was a little old Japanese man in polyester pants. When he took hold of a bokken and stepped onto the dojo floor, suddenly I had no doubt in my mind who would be dead if we were to fight for real. Kigurai.

[The great I AM]

He was a little old Japanese man in polyester pants.They are always the deadliest.