Paul Chen

[kundalini]

Hi. I've been reading the threads and alot of you seem quite experienced when it comes to Katana's. I have to admit i'm a terrible newbie so please forgive my ignorance. I live in a small town in the north of England so there arn't too many resources for me to learn from.

Anyway, i'll get to my point. Do you guys rate Paul Chen's range of katana's, Iaito or Shinken? You don't really see many others over here. Maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places.

I have Paul Chen's Practical Katana. Its super basic. Pretty much no decoration and no historical ties. Cuts corners by having imitation Rayskin etc. I can't really rate the blade as I don't really know how a sword should be weighted exactly. It's a tiny £134 compared to the swords that I have read you guys talking about.

Any info for the young and naive would be greatly appreciated.

[mystic_kendoka]

is the blade attached to the handle?
just kidding, but seriously is it sharp? if its razor sharp its most probably a katana, if its half sharp half blunt its an iaito... i think..

[kundalini]

Oh I think you misunderstood my question. My katana is a live blade not a iaito (i'm a newbie but give me some credit, haha). What I was trying to ask was do you think Paul Chen's Katanas and Iaitos are anygood? Maybe I worded it wrong.

[Yzakj]

Oh I think you misunderstood my question. My katana is a live blade not a iaito (i'm a newbie but give me some credit, haha). What I was trying to ask was do you think Paul Chen's Katanas and Iaitos are anygood? Maybe I worded it wrong.

Since you have one of his Katanas, do you think it is good? Have you tried cutting stuff with it? Me, I looked at sword websites for fun, and Paul Chen makes all kinds of different swords, not just Katanas and Iaitos. So it is hard to trust his methods, if he even makes Katana or Shinken the same way a Japanese smith does it. The other swords he makes, historically aren't made the same way, some of them are just put in a mold and then further refined. Maybe he cut corners in making the Katana, and did he go to a professional to have it polished and sharpened? And all the fancy stuff is part of the katana itself too, I wouldn't just want a sharp piece of metal with cotton wrapped around the handle. It just depends on what you want and need too. :confused2

[hyouriittai]

Since you have one of his Katanas, do you think it is good? Have you tried cutting stuff with it? Me, I looked at sword websites for fun, and Paul Chen makes all kinds of different swords, not just Katanas and Iaitos. So it is hard to trust his methods, if he even makes Katana or Shinken the same way a Japanese smith does it. The other swords he makes, historically aren't made the same way, some of them are just put in a mold and then further refined. Maybe he cut corners in making the Katana, and did he go to a professional to have it polished and sharpened? And all the fancy stuff is part of the katana itself too, I wouldn't just want a sharp piece of metal with cotton wrapped around the handle. It just depends on what you want and need too. :confused2

I myself own a Paul Chen shinken (the Practical Katana "Plus,") and was once using it for iaido. As far as the feel, it's similar to alot of iaito and nihonto I've encountered. Paul Chen's Hanwei forge is pretty credible, even though they produce more than just Japanese-fashion weapons -- however, it was earlier noted that the swords there are considerably cheaper than most, such as those at swordshop.com or tozando. I talked to Fred Lohman, as he lives in my area, and he told me that the tsuka construction is still pretty weak.

Most of Chen's weapons under $800 (USD) are not folded blades, but do have pretty distinct hamon. Some people recommend the cheaper shinken as swords for tamashigiri, as it'd be less of a risk than using some expensive nihonto made in Japan. Then again, I've never practiced tamashigiri, with this particular shinken no less, so I don't know how safe it is or what have you. But as far as I can tell, the mekugi are pretty sturdy, and when you take a peak at the tsuka it doesn't look like it's ready to explode or anything. Real same and the lot. So, I don't know. You should probably wait for a better response before going off anything I say, anyways. :P

[Yzakj]

I am mostly concerned probably with the Mekugi, as I don't want to kill anyone because of an accidental breakage. Is the sword itself nice at all?

[Ren Blade]

I have a Paul Chen Practical Katana as well. It's very sharp. They're made for cutting practice.

hyouriittai, is the tsuka of Paul Chen's practical Katana weak because it's made of plastic? Thanks for the other detailed info on Paul Chen's Katana. I bought mine for $200.00. I'm looking at another one of his Katanas that costs $700.00. But you say anything under $800.00 is not folded? The handle of that one is sting ray and I was "told" that the blade is folded 500 times. Can you verify this?

[hyouriittai]

I have a Paul Chen Practical Katana as well. It's very sharp. They're made for cutting practice.

hyouriittai, is the tsuka of Paul Chen's practical Katana weak because it's made of plastic? Thanks for the other detailed info on Paul Chen's Katana. I bought mine for $200.00. I'm looking at another one of his Katanas that costs $700.00. But you say anything under $800.00 is not folded? The handle of that one is sting ray and I was "told" that the blade is folded 500 times. Can you verify this?

I think that all of Paul Chen's katana have wooden tsuka, even the theatrical reproduction of the "Blind Fury." However, one thing I'm fairly sure of is that the most affordable of the Paul Chen Blades, the [number] Generation Practical Katana, does have a real mekugi, but because the same is not ray skin, it is advised that you don't try and disassemble it.

If you could find out what the name of that katana is, that'd be helpful. :)
I'm no sword authority, but I know a fair share of information about Paul Chen blades specifically, because I looked at alot of them for a long while before I bought one. I was told that the folded blades start at about $800 (USD, I wasn't clear,) and I believe are: the Bushido series, the Orchid series, the Tiger series, and the Kami series. Other than those, I was told his other swords are clay tempered (except for the normal 'practical katana,') but do not have a folded construction.

Take a look at www.bugei.com , too. They get their blades from Paul Chen's forge, but the blades they get are supposed to be the forge's best, and I belive the people at Bugei make all the furnishings. They look pretty nice.

[Ren Blade]

This is the Practical Katana I bought from Chesapeake Knife And Tools.
http://www.chesapeakeknifeandtool.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/sword-practical.htm?L+scstore+qrpg8272ff8b2b8b

The handle of this Katana is plastic but wrapped in cloth.

[kundalini]

I am mostly concerned probably with the Mekugi, as I don't want to kill anyone because of an accidental breakage. Is the sword itself nice at all?
How do you check what your Mekugi is made out of? You can't dismantle the Practical Katana. I tried to find some info about Mekugi but I couldn't find much usefull. Would a bamboo Mekugi still have metal bits on each end?

[steliosk]

How do you check what your Mekugi is made out of? You can't dismantle the Practical Katana. I tried to find some info about Mekugi but I couldn't find much usefull. Would a bamboo Mekugi still have metal bits on each end?
From what I remember reading, the Practical Katana does not have removable fittings. Check swordforum.com for reviews and discussions on this.

[kundalini]

From what I remember reading, the Practical Katana does not have removable fittings. Check swordforum.com for reviews and discussions on this.
Thats what I said :cool:

[hyouriittai]

This is the Practical Katana I bought from Chesapeake Knife And Tools.
http://www.chesapeakeknifeandtool.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/sword-practical.htm?L+scstore+qrpg8272ff8b2b8b

The handle of this Katana is plastic but wrapped in cloth.

Are you sure the entire tsuka is plastic, or is it just the immitation rayskin? Even though it's a cheaper sword, it's not necessarily a wall hanger, and is supposed to be capable of tamashigiri use. If it had a plastic tsuka, it would must definitely break if used to cut targets.

[kundalini]

Are you sure the entire tsuka is plastic, or is it just the immitation rayskin? Even though it's a cheaper sword, it's not necessarily a wall hanger, and is supposed to be capable of tamashigiri use. If it had a plastic tsuka, it would must definitely break if used to cut targets.
The Tsuka is wood (not sure what type) wrapped in immitation rayskin. I dunno what immitation rayskin or real rayskin is exactly but the immitation does feel like plastic so I can see why people get that idea.

I'm trying to find out about the Meguki. You'd think that the fact that I own the sword would help but no.

[steliosk]

Thats what I said :cool: My apologies. I did not catch the entire message, I had been looking into those katana and noticed that about the mekugi. I think there were some articles on the swordforum site on dismantling and modding the PK...

[kundalini]

My apologies. I did not catch the entire message, I had been looking into those katana and noticed that about the mekugi. I think there were some articles on the swordforum site on dismantling and modding the PK...
From what i've been told on another board, the Practical Katana can't (or atleast shouldn't) be dismantled so the Mekugi isn't really important so its probably just riveted together.

I dunno if its true that the mekugi is not important is the sword cannot be dismantled. Maybe someone with more experience can answer.

[Ren Blade]

I see. So the handle of the Practical Katana is actually wood and then it's a layer of some immitation ray skin over the wood. I thought whatever the immitation ray skin was, was plastic and that the handle was completely plastic under the cloth wrapping. If the immitation ray skin isn't plastic, then what is it? So it's safe to use the Practical Katana for cutting practice without the handle cracking and breaking?

Also the blade of the Practical Katana is not folded as someone mentioned earlier? How strong is the metal then? I can see though on my PK that the blade isn't tempered.

[kundalini]

I see. So the handle of the Practical Katana is actually wood and then it's a layer of some immitation ray skin over the wood. I thought whatever the immitation ray skin was, was plastic and that the handle was completely plastic under the cloth wrapping. If the immitation ray skin isn't plastic, then what is it? So it's safe to use the Practical Katana for cutting practice without the handle cracking and breaking?

Also the blade of the Practical Katana is not folded as someone mentioned earlier? How strong is the metal then? I can see though on my PK that the blade isn't tempered.
According to Barringtons where I got my Practical Katana from the blade is differentially tempered with RC60 edge and RC40 back. Oh and its definatly forged not folded. I read somewhere that forged blades are generally alot lighter than folded blades. I doubt its always the case though.

Here is exactly what Barringtons say:

"The Practical Katana (1070-GT) gives the martial artist the opportunity to own and use a blade at the cost of an economy sword. The blade is forged and differentially tempered, using the same process as the more expensive blades and producing an RC60 edge and RC40 back. The temper line is authentic and prominent. Cost savings are effected by using fittings which, while making no claims to authenticity, are very strongly built to withstand the rigours of cutting exercises."

[Yzakj]

It is ok if they don't actually use a mekugi to hold the blade in. Maybe it's even better if they use something stronger, like a rivet or two, maybe not I dunno. But they claim it's just as good as some of the more expensive blades? Are they really?

[kundalini]

It is ok if they don't actually use a mekugi to hold the blade in. Maybe it's even better if they use something stronger, like a rivet or two, maybe not I dunno. But they claim it's just as good as some of the more expensive blades? Are they really?
When the most expensive blades on that site are Paul Chen ones like that so i'm sure the comparrison is with them rathe than other places like www.ninecircles.co.uk or somewhere in Japan.

[lewis]

I bought a practical plus katana and wakazashi specifically for cutting practice. (I have a nice iaito, but it isn't live.) I wanted to try out cutting but I didn't want to throw a lot of money down the drain if I bent the blade (which after doing some cutting is an even larger possibility than I initially imagined - cutting is definitely not the same as doing kendo or iaido and bending a blade is a very real possibility).

The blades cut well and have stayed relatively sharp. I have cut about 200 targets with them, mostly tatami omote - 2/3 with the katana and 1/3 with the wak. They both have two menuki which gives me some confidence as the menuki will work loose during cutting. As these are the only swords I have used for cutting, I don't know if this a problem with these swords, the practical plus series or all japanese style, menuki-equipped swords. (I think it is a menuki design issue personally. It is so dry in Colorado that wood just doesn't hold up well, especially new, wet wood. In Missouri, the handle would swell up so big the blade would be fixed solid and the menuki would look like a rivet. Here, it's another story altogether.)

The only important complaint I have (besides menuki working loose - rivets or bolts are definitely under consideration) is that the blades of both weapons have become a little loose in the tsuka, even when the menuki are tight. I haven't torn down the tsuka yet, but it is coming (and supposed to be OK with the practical plus series, although I have my reservations about that). My guess is that the wood inside the handle has been damaged/compressed/deformed by the environment and number/type of cuttings as I occasionally try to cut thick targets (2 and 3 mat targets) which take a lot of force even with a good cut and, as a beginning cutter, I don't get a good cut every time. If I can't repair it, I will mill a replacement tsuka out of something more durable and, probably, obscenely modern.

An unimportant complaint is that they are cheap. They don't draw very well or smoothly. The saya is poorly constructed and the swords don't fit well or hold well in their saya. Under close inspection they aren't very pretty and haven't gotten prettier with wear.

That said, I'd say that they were definitely the way to go for cutting. They seem safe enough if you pay attention and aren't stupid. While I wouldn't want to take one into battle or use one day in and day out for iaido, they are definitely good enough to cut with and to learn from. You can really tell when you do it right and you can really tell when you do it wrong. A better quality sword would probably let you cut more mats with the same cut or fool you into thinking you cuts are better than they actually are, but I am in it to learn and not to compete with Big Tony (if that is even possible for regular-sized, mere mortals with day jobs). I don't care if they scuff or break because they were pretty cheap on ebay at $200 and $150 US.

I haven't really mistreated one yet, so I can't attest to overall strength. Even my worst cuts so far have been "good enough for government work" and I have yet to follow through into the concrete floor, wall, or an overhead I-beam. I have misjudged and sheared the top of the 1-inch wooden (white pine) peg on the tamishigiri stand a few times with no negative consequences. And the katana has gone through 3-mat omote targets many times without any visible negative effects to the blade.

If you are considering buying one, there are a number of Paul Chen importers who only sell on ebay and have heavily discounted prices because they don't have any overhead.

Since I am here and you've read this far, I'll go out on a limb and be a little opinionated. (anticipatory apologies all 'round) I, for one, think there are better uses for ray skin than sword handles - like on rays. AND, while it certainly was the best thing going in 1250 AD, there are better materials available now for sword handles than ray skin. Sounds like a perfect "And they all lived happily ever after" ending to me. (Except for the "We gottcha right here da real dead ray skin handle - yessiree" advertisements. You've seen them, I'm sure. "Men o' your discriminatin' tastes should accept no cheap dead shark, weasel or vole imitations. Dead rays is what it is all about when cutting omote or doing iai. Accept no sub-sti-tutes. I tell you what. Uh-huh. When you spend this much on a quality piece, you gotta get your dead ray in the bargain. It tradition. Besides, the ray was already dead when it got to the factory. It wasn't like he was going to need that skin no more....")

[kundalini]

I bought a practical plus katana and wakazashi specifically for cutting practice. (I have a nice iaito, but it isn't live.) I wanted to try out cutting but I didn't want to throw a lot of money down the drain if I bent the blade (which after doing some cutting is an even larger possibility than I initially imagined - cutting is definitely not the same as doing kendo or iaido and bending a blade is a very real possibility).

The blades cut well and have stayed relatively sharp. I have cut about 200 targets with them, mostly tatami omote - 2/3 with the katana and 1/3 with the wak. They both have two menuki which gives me some confidence as the menuki will work loose during cutting. As these are the only swords I have used for cutting, I don't know if this a problem with these swords, the practical plus series or all japanese style, menuki-equipped swords. (I think it is a menuki design issue personally. It is so dry in Colorado that wood just doesn't hold up well, especially new, wet wood. In Missouri, the handle would swell up so big the blade would be fixed solid and the menuki would look like a rivet. Here, it's another story altogether.)

The only important complaint I have (besides menuki working loose - rivets or bolts are definitely under consideration) is that the blades of both weapons have become a little loose in the tsuka, even when the menuki are tight. I haven't torn down the tsuka yet, but it is coming (and supposed to be OK with the practical plus series, although I have my reservations about that). My guess is that the wood inside the handle has been damaged/compressed/deformed by the environment and number/type of cuttings as I occasionally try to cut thick targets (2 and 3 mat targets) which take a lot of force even with a good cut and, as a beginning cutter, I don't get a good cut every time. If I can't repair it, I will mill a replacement tsuka out of something more durable and, probably, obscenely modern.

An unimportant complaint is that they are cheap. They don't draw very well or smoothly. The saya is poorly constructed and the swords don't fit well or hold well in their saya. Under close inspection they aren't very pretty and haven't gotten prettier with wear.

That said, I'd say that they were definitely the way to go for cutting. They seem safe enough if you pay attention and aren't stupid. While I wouldn't want to take one into battle or use one day in and day out for iaido, they are definitely good enough to cut with and to learn from. You can really tell when you do it right and you can really tell when you do it wrong. A better quality sword would probably let you cut more mats with the same cut or fool you into thinking you cuts are better than they actually are, but I am in it to learn and not to compete with Big Tony (if that is even possible for regular-sized, mere mortals with day jobs). I don't care if they scuff or break because they were pretty cheap on ebay at $200 and $150 US.

I haven't really mistreated one yet, so I can't attest to overall strength. Even my worst cuts so far have been "good enough for government work" and I have yet to follow through into the concrete floor, wall, or an overhead I-beam. I have misjudged and sheared the top of the 1-inch wooden (white pine) peg on the tamishigiri stand a few times with no negative consequences. And the katana has gone through 3-mat omote targets many times without any visible negative effects to the blade.

If you are considering buying one, there are a number of Paul Chen importers who only sell on ebay and have heavily discounted prices because they don't have any overhead.

Since I am here and you've read this far, I'll go out on a limb and be a little opinionated. (anticipatory apologies all 'round) I, for one, think there are better uses for ray skin than sword handles - like on rays. AND, while it certainly was the best thing going in 1250 AD, there are better materials available now for sword handles than ray skin. Sounds like a perfect "And they all lived happily ever after" ending to me. (Except for the "We gottcha right here da real dead ray skin handle - yessiree" advertisements. You've seen them, I'm sure. "Men o' your discriminatin' tastes should accept no cheap dead shark, weasel or vole imitations. Dead rays is what it is all about when cutting omote or doing iai. Accept no sub-sti-tutes. I tell you what. Uh-huh. When you spend this much on a quality piece, you gotta get your dead ray in the bargain. It tradition. Besides, the ray was already dead when it got to the factory. It wasn't like he was going to need that skin no more....")
Hey, thanks for all the info. Thats pretty detailed.

[Ren Blade]

Thanks Lewis.

I guess although my Practical Katana being a grade lower than the Practical Katana Plus, I guess I can assume it will share the similar strengths.

So if Ray Skin is not necessary for a good handle because there are better material now, what is better than Ray Skin for a handle?

They're not out hunting live Rays and killing them for the skin for Katanas are they? Are they out looking for Rays that already died in the waters before they pull them out to take some of their skin?

[mystic_kendoka]

ray skin is sold as other leather products are, so Paul Chen probably buy the ray skin from a leather makin company, then use it for their swords,

the ray's are probably hunted, since rays dont live near the surface, meaning they dont float up when they die

[kundalini]

ray skin is sold as other leather products are, so Paul Chen probably buy the ray skin from a leather makin company, then use it for their swords,

the ray's are probably hunted, since rays dont live near the surface, meaning they dont float up when they die I just went on Tozando's site for the first time and all the katanas I looked at there have sharkskin. I was actually quite surprised that most of the Iaito's on that site are under £500.

[ZrJn89]

Hi. I've been reading the threads and alot of you seem quite experienced when it comes to Katana's. I have to admit i'm a terrible newbie so please forgive my ignorance. I live in a small town in the north of England so there arn't too many resources for me to learn from.

Anyway, i'll get to my point. Do you guys rate Paul Chen's range of katana's, Iaito or Shinken? You don't really see many others over here. Maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places.

I have Paul Chen's Practical Katana. Its super basic. Pretty much no decoration and no historical ties. Cuts corners by having imitation Rayskin etc. I can't really rate the blade as I don't really know how a sword should be weighted exactly. It's a tiny £134 compared to the swords that I have read you guys talking about.

Any info for the young and naive would be greatly appreciated.


From wut i kno and heard, paul chen's swords are usually good. But don't expect the greatest quality, especially if its under a grand. Still, pratical katanas are good for martial arts use so keep it. Also make sure not to touch the blade with ur fingers cuz ur sweat could build up rust on the sword, eventually rendering it usless/

[ZrJn89]

Hi. I've been reading the threads and alot of you seem quite experienced when it comes to Katana's. I have to admit i'm a terrible newbie so please forgive my ignorance. I live in a small town in the north of England so there arn't too many resources for me to learn from.

Anyway, i'll get to my point. Do you guys rate Paul Chen's range of katana's, Iaito or Shinken? You don't really see many others over here. Maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places.

I have Paul Chen's Practical Katana. Its super basic. Pretty much no decoration and no historical ties. Cuts corners by having imitation Rayskin etc. I can't really rate the blade as I don't really know how a sword should be weighted exactly. It's a tiny £134 compared to the swords that I have read you guys talking about.

Any info for the young and naive would be greatly appreciated.

Paul Chen from wut i've heard makes incredible swords, but they've got to be a grand or up for the best quality. Still keep ur practical katana, and don't touch the blade wit ur bare hands, ur sweat could build rust on the blade ruining it permanetley.

[Ren Blade]

I have picked up the Practical Katana Plus yesterday for $375.00. It is definitely of nicer quality than my Practical Katana. I haven't cut anything with the Plus yet, but drawed it a few times and it's alot smoother than the Practical. The Plus also seems lighter as well.

[lewis]

On ray skin, Mystic Kendoka is correct, as far as I know. Rays (if I remember correctly) are members of the shark family and end up in oriental soups rather easily. So ray skin is probably rather available in china.

[cresentmoon]

hello guys!

i also own a paul chen practical plus katana, and have been studying katanas for a numbers of years. i have found out that swords are folded in japan because all that they have at the time was iron, and inorder to turn it into steel they have to fold it to adjust the carbon content and to purify it, of coures today steel dont have to be folded because they are already pure, folding the swords does not make much of a different, in fact if steel is folded too many times it will make it soft, also there i no such thing as a sword that has been folded 500 times! that is really time consuming, my gathered resoures have told me that katanas made during the pre meji era was folded 20 time max and no more, also as stated earlier the japanese smith at the time fold there sword to turn it into steel and to get rid of all the impurites, since all that japan had was iron which is impure and the reason why modern smith fold thier swords is due to the traditions of japan, folding steel is not necessary.
all i have to say about the hanwei line of ppk is that they are designed by paul chen and is not forged by him himself, that is the reason why some of them are low quality. also the handle on my ppk is part wood and part impact resin, a high quality and durable plastic.

[aquilonian]

hello guys!

have been studying katanas for a numbers of years. i have found out that swords are folded in japan because all that they have at the time was iron, and inorder to turn it into steel they have to fold it to adjust the carbon content and to purify it, of coures today steel dont have to be folded because they are already pure, folding the swords does not make much of a different, in fact if steel is folded too many times it will make it soft, also there i no such thing as a sword that has been folded 500 times! that is really time consuming, my gathered resoures have told me that katanas made during the pre meji era was folded 20 time max and no more,...... and the reason why modern smith fold thier swords is due to the traditions of japan, folding steel is not necessary..........
.

Great post finally someone who understands steel, thank you for educating. All that wast stated is 100% true. look it up. YOU got rep points!

[cresentmoon]

hehe just saying what i know. finally all these reading and research paid off.

thanks for the comment...and what are rep points? sorry im quite new as you can see =)

[Kaoru]

hello guys!

i also own a paul chen practical plus katana, and have been studying katanas for a numbers of years. i have found out that swords are folded in japan because all that they have at the time was iron, and inorder to turn it into steel they have to fold it to adjust the carbon content and to purify it, of coures today steel dont have to be folded because they are already pure, folding the swords does not make much of a different, in fact if steel is folded too many times it will make it soft, also there i no such thing as a sword that has been folded 500 times! that is really time consuming, my gathered resoures have told me that katanas made during the pre meji era was folded 20 time max and no more, also as stated earlier the japanese smith at the time fold there sword to turn it into steel and to get rid of all the impurites, since all that japan had was iron which is impure and the reason why modern smith fold thier swords is due to the traditions of japan, folding steel is not necessary.
all i have to say about the hanwei line of ppk is that they are designed by paul chen and is not forged by him himself, that is the reason why some of them are low quality. also the handle on my ppk is part wood and part impact resin, a high quality and durable plastic.

Hello there,

You have your information all wrong. You are not trained in a sword art, nor have you read any intellectual books on swordsmithing apparently.

Will you please tell us what your sources are/where? (To back yourself up.)

A forged blade is ALWAYS folded hundreds of times, more than 500 times even. The metals used to create the high carbon steel for a katana are pounded together and then are folded hundreds of times. You need to go get a good book on swordsmithing to learn more, because none of what you said is even right. Folding the metal a lot does not make it too soft. It is soft when folding it because the metal is hot. It has to be or you can't fold it. It only becomes hard when you quench it after the blade is finished. Sheesh, there is a ton more that goes into sword making than this even.

Steel is always created and folded when it comes to a sword. It is NEVER cut out and just shaped. So, it is false to say that today's steel is not folded. That is completely incorrect. The reason they fold it is because that is how you get high carbon steel for a sword. They need to do that to make a good quality sword or it is junk and not useable. It is quite necessary to fold the metal for this reason. This is because you don't cut swords out of a sheet like a cookie and then shaped.

To learn more, get the book titled "The Samurai Sword: A handbook" by John M. Yumoto. I own this book, and it is very good.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=gq2TfG0CbO&isbn=0804805091&itm=1

That book tells how a sword is made and gives you the history of swordmaking among other interesting things.

Also, you can head over to Swordforum International to read more information by those that make swords for a living. You will be able to ask questions to learn more there. Please be aware that it is an intellectual forum and will require you to sign each post with your full first and last real name.

http://forums.swordforum.com/

This forum is very educational and interesting. The people there are highly qualified and are the best in the business.

So, I think you need to not say anything else regarding making swords. Ok? :) Please go educate yourself using the links I just gave you. :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Great post finally someone who understands steel, thank you for educating. All that wast stated is 100% true. look it up. YOU got rep points!

No, all of that was 100 percent wrong.

Sorry!

Kaoru

[Brian Pettett]

Kaoru, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm afraid aquilonian is correct on most points.

While a sword blade may have several hundred layers in it, this is accomplished by folding the billet only a few times; the actual layers build up exponentially (i.e.: fold the billet once, you have 2 layers. Fold the same billet again, you have four layers. Again, you have eight and so on...) A Japanese smith may only fold his steel billet around 10-15 times, but there will be hundreds of layers as a result. An important distinction...

Folding a traditional tamahagane-based blade was done to make sure the carbon is spread throughout the steel, as the tatara smelting method was a crude process, and left steel with masses of low- and high-carbon deposits. Modern steel typically has a more uniform concentration of carbon, and therefore does not require folding to make a homogenous mass of high-carbon steel.

Also, with every folding operation, you actually are reducing the amount of carbon in a blade; traditional smiths start out with much more carbon than the final blade requires, for this reason. If the blade is worked too much, the resultant loss of carbon will indeed make the blade too soft.

You are correct that swords are not typically ground out of sheet stock. But they can indeed be forged out from a single billet with no folding required, unless desired for aesthetic or other (read: marketing) reasons. Japanese smiths, however, are required to use the traditional methods by law.

All of this information comes from reading posts by the bladesmiths on Sword Forum and Bugei's forum (as you suggested above), as well as through study of the excellent text "The Craft of the Japanese Sword" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087011798X/qid=1124068325/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-9497267-2519945?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) co-written by Yoshindo Yoshihara, one of the foremost smiths in Japan today. The revelant information can be found on page 73...

[Brian Pettett]

My bad - got the attribution wrong. Sorry, cresentmoon.. :)

[Ojiisan]

1 fold = 2 layers
2 folds = 4 layers
3 folds = 8 layers
4 folds = 16 layers
5 folds = 32 layers
6 folds = 64 layers
7 folds = 128 layers
8 folds = 256 layers
9 folds = 512 layers
10 folds = 1024 layers
11 folds = 2048 layers
12 folds = 4096 layers

So you can see it gets to a high number of layers very quickly.

[Kaoru]

Kaoru, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm afraid aquilonian is correct on most points.


I know you mean Cresentmoon-san. :) And, no problem! :) Being wrong is good for a person. :) That teaches lessons.


While a sword blade may have several hundred layers in it, this is accomplished by folding the billet only a few times; the actual layers build up exponentially (i.e.: fold the billet once, you have 2 layers. Fold the same billet again, you have four layers. Again, you have eight and so on...) A Japanese smith may only fold his steel billet around 10-15 times, but there will be hundreds of layers as a result. An important distinction...

Ah, yes. I see what you mean. That makes sense. I did forget about the layering. :confused2 My book is at my house, and I'm at my parent's so I was not able to double check. Thank you very much for correcting me. So, I was both right(the several hundered times) and wrong(It is layered from the folding and it is not just the folding as I said.) at the same time. I got my info crossed.


Folding a traditional tamahagane-based blade was done to make sure the carbon is spread throughout the steel, as the tatara smelting method was a crude process, and left steel with masses of low- and high-carbon deposits. Modern steel typically has a more uniform concentration of carbon, and therefore does not require folding to make a homogenous mass of high-carbon steel.


Ok. But I want to know, because I have never heard of it, are any decent swords made out of a non-folded billet then?

(Because I thought he was talking about a piece of steel... it sure came off like that anyway.)


Also, with every folding operation, you actually are reducing the amount of carbon in a blade; traditional smiths start out with much more carbon than the final blade requires, for this reason. If the blade is worked too much, the resultant loss of carbon will indeed make the blade too soft.


Are you talking about the folding? I assume you are.


You are correct that swords are not typically ground out of sheet stock. But they can indeed be forged out from a single billet with no folding required, unless desired for aesthetic or other (read: marketing) reasons.

Since he did not state that the steel used is a billet, I believed him to mean a sheet of steel. That is why I wrote what I wrote. Now, my next question would be, is a sword made from the non-folded billet as useful and good as a sword forged from a folded billet? Also, isn't a billet of high carbon steel folded or something to get that way? How else does it become good steel? The modern carbon steel billet I mean, that you mentioned above. Maybe it is done in a factory... Something has had to be done to it.


Japanese smiths, however, are required to use the traditional methods by law.

That I already knew. ;)


All of this information comes from reading posts by the bladesmiths on Sword Forum and Bugei's forum (as you suggested above), as well as through study of the excellent text "The Craft of the Japanese Sword" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087011798X/qid=1124068325/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-9497267-2519945?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) co-written by Yoshindo Yoshihara, one of the foremost smiths in Japan today. The revelant information can be found on page 73...

Thank you very much for the information. And, thank you very much for correcting some of what I wrote. You really have done your research! You did a heck of a lot better than I did. That's obvious. :) Thank you for the references, as well. I think I will see about getting that book. I didn't know Sword Forum had a sword smith forum. I guess I'll have to go look.

May I ask what JSA you train in? Just wondering... :) Oh, and welcome to the forum BTW. :) I haven't seen you here before today.

Thank you again for the corrections. I appreciate it.

Kaoru

[Maro]

Ok. But I want to know, because I have never heard of it, are any decent swords made out of a non-folded billet then?



Arguably one of the toughest swords made by Hanwei is not folded - the Bugei Shobu Zukuri is forged NOT Folded.

Also, most of the Paul Chen blades below the Bushido (Musashi, Wind & Thunder, PK, PK+ etc) are also forged only.

Just a different technique.

[Kaoru]

Arguably one of the toughest swords made by Hanwei is not folded - the Bugei Shobu Zukuri is forged NOT Folded.

Also, most of the Paul Chen blades below the Bushido (Musashi, Wind & Thunder, PK, PK+ etc) are also forged only.

Just a different technique.

Hi Maro-san,

Thank you very much! :)

Oh, and welcome to the forum! :)

Kaoru

[Mokuso]

the best sword ever made by man is the hattori hanzo :P

[Brian Pettett]

Thank you very much for correcting me...I got my info crossed.

No problem - I'm fanatical about this sort of stuff. ;) And this particular point is a common misconception...


Ok. But I want to know, because I have never heard of it, are any decent swords made out of a non-folded billet then? (I)s a sword made from the non-folded billet as useful and good as a sword forged from a folded billet?

Well, many swords (both production and custom) are non-folded blades, made out of modern steel. Off the top of my head, the Bugei Shobu Zukuri blade is unfolded, as are a large majority of Hanwei's (Paul Chen's) blades. Rick Barrett, Randall Graham and of course Howard Clark make excellent blades, the majority of which are unfolded. As for usefulness, ask any serious practitioner whether they'd want one of Mr. Clark's L6 bainite blades... ;)


Also, isn't a billet of high carbon steel folded or something to get that way? How else does it become good steel?

Without being a smith or metallurgist myself, I would be hesitant to answer that one. As I understand it, steel is iron with extra carbon added. How that is done can vary I think, but doesn't result from the folding process itself. If you read some of Dan Harden's posts over at Bugei's forum or e-Budo, that may help your understanding some...


May I ask what JSA you train in? Just wondering... :) Oh, and welcome to the forum BTW. :) I haven't seen you here before today.

Thanks for the welcome. I've been around for over a year but mainly lurk here, as this is mainly a kendo board and that isn't my specialty. I study Mugairyu in Chicago.

[tattooedasshole]

Hello there,

You have your information all wrong. You are not trained in a sword art, nor have you read any intellectual books on swordsmithing apparently.

Will you please tell us what your sources are/where? (To back yourself up.)

A forged blade is ALWAYS folded hundreds of times, more than 500 times even. The metals used to create the high carbon steel for a katana are pounded together and then are folded hundreds of times. You need to go get a good book on swordsmithing to learn more, because none of what you said is even right. Folding the metal a lot does not make it too soft. It is soft when folding it because the metal is hot. It has to be or you can't fold it. It only becomes hard when you quench it after the blade is finished. Sheesh, there is a ton more that goes into sword making than this even.

Steel is always created and folded when it comes to a sword. It is NEVER cut out and just shaped. So, it is false to say that today's steel is not folded. That is completely incorrect. The reason they fold it is because that is how you get high carbon steel for a sword. They need to do that to make a good quality sword or it is junk and not useable. It is quite necessary to fold the metal for this reason. This is because you don't cut swords out of a sheet like a cookie and then shaped.

To learn more, get the book titled "The Samurai Sword: A handbook" by John M. Yumoto. I own this book, and it is very good.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=gq2TfG0CbO&isbn=0804805091&itm=1

That book tells how a sword is made and gives you the history of swordmaking among other interesting things.

Also, you can head over to Swordforum International to read more information by those that make swords for a living. You will be able to ask questions to learn more there. Please be aware that it is an intellectual forum and will require you to sign each post with your full first and last real name.

http://forums.swordforum.com/

This forum is very educational and interesting. The people there are highly qualified and are the best in the business.

So, I think you need to not say anything else regarding making swords. Ok? :) Please go educate yourself using the links I just gave you. :)

Kaoru
Wow, how does that foot taste? One of the first times I've seen you be completely wrong.

[tattooedasshole]

The folding process used in japanese sword is done primarily to even out the carbon distibution. When the steel is smelted down from iron sand, it comes out really nasty. You can acctually see the carbon deposits (blue or purple crystal). By folding the steel, theses deposits are broken up, and distributed throuhg out the entire mass. Modern steels are made with an even carbon distribution, no folding required.

To increase the carbon level in a piece of steel, you fire up the forge, sit the piece on top, and let it work its way to the bottom. Carbon migration adds carbon to the piece. Folding takes carbon away because it alows the outer layers of the steel to oxidize slightly, taking carbon out, and releasing it as CO2.
These days a non-folded blade is just as good so long as the heat treat is done properly.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ok. But I want to know, because I have never heard of it, are any decent swords made out of a non-folded billet then? [snip] Now, my next question would be, is a sword made from the non-folded billet as useful and good as a sword forged from a folded billet?Modern billet steels are much better by nearly any measured property than traditionally folded steels.

Also, isn't a billet of high carbon steel folded or something to get that way? In traditional construction. Japanese forging methods developed because they had really crappy source materials. The ore that they used was full of impurities. The complicated folding and welding that was done was all in compensation for the poor material. Actually modern testing has shown that the welding part of it (where they fused a hard edge material with a soft core material) actually weakens the blade - the simpler the construction, the better. The folding was absolutely necessary to homogeonize the material and control the carbon content.

Now modern steels are made in factories, I'm sorry I don't know the details. Like any technology, they have improved over the past and modern metallurgists work wonders in steel. Even though some people make swords from billet just by stock removal, the best ones are still forged, just from modern materials. Howard Clark's work with 1086 and L6 steels are the most quoted examples. "1086" and "L6" refer to the type of steel. You often hear of 440 wall-hangers, well "440" is just another kind of steel but not a good one for swords. If you find Howard's site you can see some video of testing an L6 sword that will astonish you. No traditionally made sword could take the sort of abuse he inflicts on his swords.

[tattooedasshole]

Modern billet steels are much better by nearly any measured property than traditionally folded steels.
In traditional construction. Japanese forging methods developed because they had really crappy source materials. The ore that they used was full of impurities. The complicated folding and welding that was done was all in compensation for the poor material. Actually modern testing has shown that the welding part of it (where they fused a hard edge material with a soft core material) actually weakens the blade - the simpler the construction, the better. The folding was absolutely necessary to homogeonize the material and control the carbon content.

Now modern steels are made in factories, I'm sorry I don't know the details. Like any technology, they have improved over the past and modern metallurgists work wonders in steel. Even though some people make swords from billet just by stock removal, the best ones are still forged, just from modern materials. Howard Clark's work with 1086 and L6 steels are the most quoted examples. "1086" and "L6" refer to the type of steel. You often hear of 440 wall-hangers, well "440" is just another kind of steel but not a good one for swords. If you find Howard's site you can see some video of testing an L6 sword that will astonish you. No traditionally made sword could take the sort of abuse he inflicts on his swords.
And the one they break started its short life with a crack in it. Absolutely amazing strength in those blades!!!!

[Bingstock]

hello guys!

i also own a paul chen practical plus katana, and have been studying katanas for a numbers of years. i have found out that swords are folded in japan because all that they have at the time was iron, and inorder to turn it into steel they have to fold it to adjust the carbon content and to purify it, of coures today steel dont have to be folded because they are already pure, folding the swords does not make much of a different, in fact if steel is folded too many times it will make it soft, also there i no such thing as a sword that has been folded 500 times! that is really time consuming, my gathered resoures have told me that katanas made during the pre meji era was folded 20 time max and no more, also as stated earlier the japanese smith at the time fold there sword to turn it into steel and to get rid of all the impurites, since all that japan had was iron which is impure and the reason why modern smith fold thier swords is due to the traditions of japan, folding steel is not necessary.
all i have to say about the hanwei line of ppk is that they are designed by paul chen and is not forged by him himself, that is the reason why some of them are low quality. also the handle on my ppk is part wood and part impact resin, a high quality and durable plastic.

I am working an internship @ Kentucky Electric Steel LLC. I spoke with our melt shop manager as well as the castor manager who assure me that folding metal does nothing to the grade of the steel. In order to make steel you must mix iron with coke (a carbon product). You cannot "fold out" impurities that’s done in the initial melting. Then additives are injected into the steel for specific qualities needed for whatever the application of the finished good. The quality of steel is dictated by the chemistry. There after heat treatment is used to harden the steel. There is a process called cold drawn that reduces the dimensions of steel product that increases strength from the heat caused by friction through dies and rolls. Layering steel, or folding, is an old way of homogenizing the product to ensure uniform distribution of the properties of the steel throughout the blade. We don’t need to fold blades anymore because the quality of steel production is much better today than it was 400 yrs ago.

[tattooedasshole]

The folding itself doesn't remove the impurities. It's the rice-straw ash (used as a flux) that "pushes" out the impurities during the welding process. It doesn't do that much, but trace amounts of crap like sulpher will be romoved, and the flux prevents any new crap from getting in.

[Kaoru]

the best sword ever made by man is the hattori hanzo :P

I thought that was an amine character...? :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

No problem - I'm fanatical about this sort of stuff. ;) And this particular point is a common misconception...


hehehe, Yeah... I can see why! :)



Well, many swords (both production and custom) are non-folded blades, made out of modern steel. Off the top of my head, the Bugei Shobu Zukuri blade is unfolded, as are a large majority of Hanwei's (Paul Chen's) blades. Rick Barrett, Randall Graham and of course Howard Clark make excellent blades, the majority of which are unfolded. As for usefulness, ask any serious practitioner whether they'd want one of Mr. Clark's L6 bainite blades... ;)

Ah, I see. That's very interesting! Thank you. :)


Without being a smith or metallurgist myself, I would be hesitant to answer that one. As I understand it, steel is iron with extra carbon added. How that is done can vary I think, but doesn't result from the folding process itself. If you read some of Dan Harden's posts over at Bugei's forum or e-Budo, that may help your understanding some...

Ok. That's really amazing that it can be made without folding. I still can't see how. Totally amazing! I didn't realise Dan-san knew about making swords. I'm going to have to go read his posts then on it. Thanks!


Thanks for the welcome. I've been around for over a year but mainly lurk here, as this is mainly a kendo board and that isn't my specialty. I study Mugairyu in Chicago.

You're welcome. :) hehe, I see... Glad to see you unlurk and join us! Well, since you study Mugai Ryu, check out the Iaido forum here. There are some good posts there.

Thanks again for all the information! :)

Kaoru

[Charles Mahan]

We don’t need to fold blades anymore because the quality of steel production is much better today than it was 400 yrs ago.

We don't need to now, but it is still done in Japan where it is still pretty much needed. Swords in Japan are still made with tamahagane which is not all that unlike the metal that has been used for the last few hundred years in Japan. Ie, it's crappy compared to the modern stuff, and thus the traditional folding techniques are still very much alive and well. Besides the need for it, traditionally folded blades have some very pleasing aesthetic qualities that non-folded blades do not possess.

[chidokan]

to go back to the original question.... anyone use a basic Chen for iaido? I found them badly balanced and am not keen, however have just seen the latest on by Chen and quite like it (musashi? or something..) cost around 250 quid, again sharp, so not really for beginners in my opinion.... mainly because my insurance is kicking up a stink about live blades in public areas such as dojo. This year we couldnt use shinken at our main seminar because of this(looking for another insurance company...) although we prefer not to anyway, too many beginners about for one thing!
So... where in the north of england do you train then?

[Kaoru]

Wow, how does that foot taste? One of the first times I've seen you be completely wrong.

Hmmm... I'm not sure... *checks* I think it needs seasoning. Can somebody please pass me some Oregano and Rosemary? :D hehehe!

Well, I dunno what the heck happened... Guess that'll teach me not to open my mouth when I don't have my references available to check my information before I actually post! :rolleyes:

Kaoru

P.S. And had I checked, I'd have found I was wrong! ;)

[tattooedasshole]

Hmmm... I'm not sure... *checks* I think it needs seasoning. Can somebody please pass me some Oregano and Rosemary? :D hehehe!

Well, I dunno what the heck happened... Guess that'll teach me not to open my mouth when I don't have my references available to check my information before I actually post! :rolleyes:

Kaoru
BAH....You're allowed to make a few mistakes.

[Kaoru]

Modern billet steels are much better by nearly any measured property than traditionally folded steels.
In traditional construction. Japanese forging methods developed because they had really crappy source materials. The ore that they used was full of impurities. The complicated folding and welding that was done was all in compensation for the poor material. Actually modern testing has shown that the welding part of it (where they fused a hard edge material with a soft core material) actually weakens the blade - the simpler the construction, the better. The folding was absolutely necessary to homogeonize the material and control the carbon content.

Now modern steels are made in factories, I'm sorry I don't know the details. Like any technology, they have improved over the past and modern metallurgists work wonders in steel. Even though some people make swords from billet just by stock removal, the best ones are still forged, just from modern materials. Howard Clark's work with 1086 and L6 steels are the most quoted examples. "1086" and "L6" refer to the type of steel. You often hear of 440 wall-hangers, well "440" is just another kind of steel but not a good one for swords. If you find Howard's site you can see some video of testing an L6 sword that will astonish you. No traditionally made sword could take the sort of abuse he inflicts on his swords.

Thank you very much Neil-sensei! You answered some of the questions I had. I wondered if steel for swords was made in factories. I'm not sure what to say, since I was just absorbing all the interesting information you gave me.

Thank you very much for the extra explanation. :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

BAH....You're allowed to make a few mistakes.\

hehehe, Thank you. :) *bow*

Oh, and thank you for all your information too. :)

Kaoru

[Maro]

Thanks for the welcome!

Been a browser for a while but a longtime Swordforum, Bugei and E-Budo poster.

Not many of the Chen blades have the correct Tsuka length IMHO. The Blades are good but not the Tsuka.

[cresentmoon]

wow! i never knew i could start such a controversy..koaru donno sorry to say the least but enevn though i never had any formal training myself in iado, im quite sure that my infos are correct are they not? because i have read such books such as " the samurai" but stephen turnbull and other historical japanese books and webpages like the one on bugie.com and they all say pretty much about the same thing.

[Kaoru]

wow! i never knew i could start such a controversy..koaru donno sorry to say the least but enevn though i never had any formal training myself in iado, im quite sure that my infos are correct are they not? because i have read such books such as " the samurai" but stephen turnbull and other historical japanese books and webpages like the one on bugie.com and they all say pretty much about the same thing.

No, please don't say sorry. :) Actually, a lot of what you said was right, according to Brian Pettett on Page 3 just after my post to you. You have only a minor thing wrong, and I don't remember which post says what it was. You'll have to read them to find out. Heh, my links to the book and forum were still good though, even if my info was totally off. Oh well... As I said above, no reference next to me+can't check=wait and don't say. So, a very sorry from me! :) *bow*

Kaoru

[Richmond]

to go back to the original question.... anyone use a basic Chen for iaido? I found them badly balanced and am not keen, however have just seen the latest on by Chen and quite like it (musashi? or something..)

I have several Chen shinken - Bugei Shobu Zukuri, Bushido, "Elder Katana" from East Coast Martial Arts. The problem with balance and iai / kata use lie, IMHO, in the tsuka. Chen tsuka are what I call "axe handles"- they stick straight out rather than follow the flow of the blade. This gives Chen blades their distinctive, dead weight feel.

I have had my Shobu and the Bushido completely rebuilt - the Shobu by Ted Tenold of Legacy Arts and the Bushido by Robin Ramirez. New tsuka core, new saya. The tsuka on each now follows the flow of the blade.I was amazed at the tremendous difference in handling that the new tsuka made! Quite simply, the sword feels much more "alive" and is a joy to use.

Some pics that show the flow of the sori and tsuka at:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48966&highlight=shobu+AND+Tenold

Pics of the Bushido:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53607&highlight=bushido+AND+ramirez

I have several semi-production katana and one beautiful custom - a Clark L6 polished and finished by Keith Larman of Summerchild Polishing. The details and quality of the koshirae, which contribute so much to a sword's actual performance, are very, very different between production swords and custom. Of course, the prices are quite different, too.

What does this mean for kata or iai practice? Well, IMO I think you are better served by a good iaito - Nosyu, Tozando, Meirin Sangyo, etc. than with a low end produciton blade. My branch of JSA - Toyama Ryu and ZNBDR Batto-jutsu - progress to practice with a shinken relatively quickly. The minimum quality I accept is Bugei or Swordstore "steel iaito" level.

My only comment on the folding issue is that folding with the Chen blades is purely for appearance - they use Swedish powder steel, which gives perfect carbon distribution and lacks impurities.

[chidokan]

thinking about it the old sword tsuka were terrible... and would explain the weird dead feel the swords had when I tried them out. The new one was a nice shape, the blade light and it was quite nicely balanced. Still not keen on newbies using them, purely and simply from the safety point of view. As anyone who has been in a dojo a long time will know, beginners do amazingly stupid things (like wandering about without permission when your back is turned etc,) and no way do either I or my students want to be cut thank you very much... I once had a young boy run straight through the middle of my class of newbies. How the hell he got in, or more to the point how he didnt get hit with a bokken, I'll never know.....and newbies want shinken???!!! no way.