"Rough Kendo"

[hugo]

Having just read the latest of reports about referee preparation for the WKC, I was a little thrown off by the following statement-

"The Japanese did not expect such rough kendo from the US Team in Taipei, and were visibly off-balanced by it."

What "rough" Kendo are they referring to? I have watched the US vs Japan matches several times and the only "rough" Kendo I can see might be the match between Teramoto (yes?) and Itokazu. The other four matches looked pretty clean to me, just very intense. Both sides were trying hard to win.

Not that I'm objecting to any of the WKC's judges (and I'm not) but what did others see that fits this description?

I thought perhaps "Flames" might be the best section for this, since it might well get heated.

[Kendoka]

Having just read the latest of reports about referee preparation for the WKC, I was a little thrown off by the following statement-

"The Japanese did not expect such rough kendo from the US Team in Taipei, and were visibly off-balanced by it."

What "rough" Kendo are they referring to? I have watched the US vs Japan matches several times and the only "rough" Kendo I can see might be the match between Teramoto (yes?) and Itokazu. The other four matches looked pretty clean to me, just very intense. Both sides were trying hard to win.

Not that I'm objecting to any of the WKC's judges (and I'm not) but what did others see that fits this description?

I thought perhaps "Flames" might be the best section for this, since it might well get heated.

Interesting. I was there and don't recall (or didn't notice) such. It'll be informative to see other responses.

[burger boy]

I think the line following that one is what is really going to get people (US Kendo at least) heated up....

"The Japanese did not expect such rough kendo from the US Team in Taipei, and were visibly off-balanced by it. The Koreans; however, did not let it distract them, and showed that they could beat the roughness with technique and proper kendo. It was an exemplary demonstration."

That's a real slap in the face to the US team on the eve of the 14th WKC.

Paul

[xvikingx]

Thanks for bringing this up Hugo, I thought the same thing when I read that quote. It also seems to suggest that neither the US or Japan were doing "proper" kendo, that being the reason neither prevailed in the end. Also in my experience kendo can be pretty damn rough in Japan too. On more than a few occasions I have been essentially beat up.

That's a real slap in the face to the US team on the eve of the 14th WKC.

Although may not have been meant that way it certainly reads like a dig at the US.

In addition: Welcome back Burger Boy. Blast from the past...

[Anime12478]

The whole quote is contained here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=396963&postcount=2) for those that want to read it. Just be warned that it's not like reading the whole thing makes it look any better though.

I'll have to take a look at the video of the matches, but it almost seems like some sort of justification to why Japan lost at the last tournament or it could just be some sort of trend Rainer noticed at overall tournaments and the situation just happens to be coincidence. He does go on to say that it only matters to him how someone wins and not just the fact that they do win. There was probably no malice behind the statement (I would hope) but I wouldn't blame someone if they weren't a little miffed at the statement initially.

[amandzing]

of course form and zanshin are going to get you the win, but at the end of the day it's a sport rooted in war, where people are trying to hack bits off you. what's not rough about that?

[xvikingx]

You make a good point, kendo is indeed rough by nature. However, I think he is commenting on what he perceives as excessively rough play, where good form is sacrificed for physical domination during a match.
IMO Itokazu's match with Teramoto, as Hugo already metioned, is the only example I can think of. I think if you just look at that match as only a slug fest (or should I say hug fest?) you lose sight of the bigger picture, which is him trying create a draw with one of the teams strongest member.

[LarsCW]

Lets hope they won't change the rules in the way they did in judo. Today I saw the world championships here in Rotterdam in Ahoy. The judges gave so many penalties that this had a really big effect on the matches and many were won or lost because of the large amount of penalties given.

I'm really saddend by this development and i for sure hope they won't mutilate kendo in the same way.

[amandzing]

all i see is kendoka with similiar styles, each giving as good as they get. that said, someone who loses their head and lets the moment overtake them, is not going to win. lol, that said, a draw is still second best to a loss with honour, which tecnically means you're dead, but budo dictates being dead with honour is still preferable to the alternative.

as for changing the sport of kendo, perhaps judging needs to be tightned up, the rules have served well until now, but perhaps the application thereof needs to be reinforced.

All- Japan Kendo Federation (http://http://www.members.tripod.com/kumdo/history.html) states that, "... Kendo is practiced for character building through the manipulation of the sword calmly under great pressure. Physical prowess is less important than doing everything with full spirit even when there is no hope of winning. The essence of Kendo is attaining mental, spiritual, and physical calm with balance, thus the popular Kendo phrase, "ki- ken- tai no icchi". In effect, the spirit (ki), the sword (ken), and the body (tai) must move and act as one"

from the same site:

To execute a successful strike:

Ki
You must see the target, feel the chance available to you, and work the resolve to make the cut. Often there's the "go for broke" spirit in a strike which manifests itself in the kiai or scream that arises from the gut of the kendoka.

Ken
The motion of the sword in it's rise and it's descent on the target must be precisely coordinated with the will and the body's movement forward upon the target.

Tai
The body must follow the will of the kendoka and the movement of the shinai as it lands on the target. The legs must lunge forward to get within striking distance, and the back must be straight. All of this is accompanied by a confident resolve to achieve the objective.

the timing of the report is unfortunate, if Sensei had had acess to it timeously, perhaps training could have been tailored to go back to basics. Now, all that's happened is for a precedent to be set for Kendo...

[misterkurukuru]

World baseball classic:
Japan and Korea played balls out baseball. Both teams used dirty plays like spiking opponents with their cleats. Team usa played lackadaisically and acted like they should win becuase they "invented" the game. who won? the team that played both the dirtiest (knee to a dudes head) and cleanest baseball, Japan.

sponsors:
when sponsors are involved, BUDO goes out the window. throw in 15 minutes of fledgling kendo fame and the "way" is leading to a steaming pile of dog poop. people may not be getting payed, but they are getting perks. and if that is part of their motivation, then i guess the "way" is as fictional as knights in shinning armor and clean cut cowboys.


how can a team prepare for a world championship and not take into account hunger, passion, and a willingness to do anything and everything to win.


everyone is allowed to slip up and some parody is good for the growth of kendo.


honestly, the shiai isn't about who has the most honor so why pretend that it is or try to make it out to be something it is not. Its entertainment people, and if you are not amused then turn around and go about your daily life.

I have no vested interest in the WKC and its out come is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. so instead of hating on it, I am not going to give it a second thought.

[Fonsz]

Apperently the heat is gradually being turned up. The psychological warfare has already begun. I'm glad that we can follow it closely thanks to this wonderful institution.
Where would we be without it?:confused:

[Idyllic]

Where can i view these videos? I was told at my last practice that im too rough when i finish a men cut, that my arms are too high up and i go bulldozing straight through the centre, and that it will lead to back problems for me and my opponents during jigeiko.

[b8amack]

all i see is kendoka with similiar styles, each giving as good as they get. that said, someone who loses their head and lets the moment overtake them, is not going to win. lol, that said, a draw is still second best to a loss with honour, which tecnically means you're dead, but budo dictates being dead with honour is still preferable to the alternative.

as for changing the sport of kendo, perhaps judging needs to be tightned up, the rules have served well until now, but perhaps the application thereof needs to be reinforced.

All- Japan Kendo Federation (http://http://www.members.tripod.com/kumdo/history.html) states that, "... Kendo is practiced for character building through the manipulation of the sword calmly under great pressure. Physical prowess is less important than doing everything with full spirit even when there is no hope of winning. The essence of Kendo is attaining mental, spiritual, and physical calm with balance, thus the popular Kendo phrase, "ki- ken- tai no icchi". In effect, the spirit (ki), the sword (ken), and the body (tai) must move and act as one"

from the same site:

To execute a successful strike:

Ki
You must see the target, feel the chance available to you, and work the resolve to make the cut. Often there's the "go for broke" spirit in a strike which manifests itself in the kiai or scream that arises from the gut of the kendoka.

Ken
The motion of the sword in it's rise and it's descent on the target must be precisely coordinated with the will and the body's movement forward upon the target.

Tai
The body must follow the will of the kendoka and the movement of the shinai as it lands on the target. The legs must lunge forward to get within striking distance, and the back must be straight. All of this is accompanied by a confident resolve to achieve the objective.

the timing of the report is unfortunate, if Sensei had had acess to it timeously, perhaps training could have been tailored to go back to basics. Now, all that's happened is for a precedent to be set for Kendo...

What's this ki-ken-tai you speak of?

[b8amack]

IMO Itokazu's match with Teramoto, as Hugo already metioned, is the only example I can think of. I think if you just look at that match as only a slug fest (or should I say hug fest?) you lose sight of the bigger picture, which is him trying create a draw with one of the teams strongest member.

I got knocked out of a tournament this weekend through a hug fest. The opposing team won the first match, and for me and the final match, it was non-stop rushing into tsuba-zeriai, and refusing to separate. I can see the tactics of it, but it's still bullshit kendo, like a bunch of lame boxers clinching for 12 rounds. People will be whining in 5-10 years when the refs are giving hansoku left and right for dallying in tsuba-zeriai, but we've got no one to blame but ourselves.

[Alex]

Having just read the latest of reports about referee preparation for the WKC, I was a little thrown off by the following statement-

"The Japanese did not expect such rough kendo from the US Team in Taipei, and were visibly off-balanced by it."

What "rough" Kendo are they referring to? I have watched the US vs Japan matches several times and the only "rough" Kendo I can see might be the match between Teramoto (yes?) and Itokazu. The other four matches looked pretty clean to me, just very intense. Both sides were trying hard to win.

Not that I'm objecting to any of the WKC's judges (and I'm not) but what did others see that fits this description?

I thought perhaps "Flames" might be the best section for this, since it might well get heated.


I suspect he was referring to the other matches the US fought. A lot of their opponents ended up on their bums, and I think they got warned about it once. Personally, I don't have a problem with it at all!! It's kendo shiai for crying out loud, not tiddly-winks. You should see the student matches and police matches in Japan!!! If you've got it, you use it, just as long as you aren't breaking the rules.

[amandzing]

What's this ki-ken-tai you speak of?

say it sl -ow- ly thenfast. failing which, follow the link.

[Karaken]

I suspect he was referring to the other matches the US fought. A lot of their opponents ended up on their bums, and I think they got warned about it once. Personally, I don't have a problem with it at all!! It's kendo shiai for crying out loud, not tiddly-winks. You should see the student matches and police matches in Japan!!! If you've got it, you use it, just as long as you aren't breaking the rules. I agree, that's why I am surprised by the comment that JPN team was Off-Balanced by it. I have seen enough videos to say they should be awfully familiar with it.

[Theodore]

I agree, that's why I am surprised by the comment that JPN team was Off-Balanced by it. I have seen enough videos to say they should be awfully familiar with it.

Maybe there expecting the kinder, gentler US team of yore to show up.

[bullet08]

What's this ki-ken-tai you speak of?

since you are in korea, check out gi-gum-chae-il.. or something like that. better yet, have OB and just forget about it.. do they still drink that crap?

pete

[amandzing]

how can a team prepare for a world championship and not take into account hunger, passion, and a willingness to do anything and everything to win...
... within the spirit of the sport.

basic differences between baseball and kendo: the bats are different, the uniforms are different and the code...baseball has a code (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-baseball-drugs27-2009aug27,0,7083709.story)?

[Anime12478]

I got knocked out of a tournament this weekend through a hug fest. The opposing team won the first match, and for me and the final match, it was non-stop rushing into tsuba-zeriai, and refusing to separate. I can see the tactics of it, but it's still bullshit kendo, like a bunch of lame boxers clinching for 12 rounds. People will be whining in 5-10 years when the refs are giving hansoku left and right for dallying in tsuba-zeriai, but we've got no one to blame but ourselves.
Well, whether or not someone does good kendo or bad kendo, one should still have something up their arsenal to defeat it. If they win with bad kendo, then is it really that bad? I do understand how things are frustrating when someone does bad and dangerous kendo, but if someone comes up too close, then try to see how you can keep them at bay. If they are too rough by using bulldozing techniques, then find some way around that. That way, if they do change the rules to give hansoku for staying in too long as opposed to a wakare, then it will always be with the other person :mad2: (I don't know if it's supposed to be an evil face or a kissy face though...).

[b8amack]

since you are in korea, check out gi-gum-chae-il.. or something like that. better yet, have OB and just forget about it.. do they still drink that crap?

pete

Oh, I was being sarcastic at someone googling their way into the discussion.

[Orophil]

i must say i prefer nice clean Kendo.

When my dojomates slip into more rough kendo, pushing and pulling etc. i simply make a sidestep or try to go for hiki waza when it slips into a hugfest. The posibilities are plenty, you just need to adept to youre opponent. That being said, i always tell the opponent he was not going for nice clean Kendo, witch our sensei teaches (if she does not do that her self.)

that being said i understand the comments from the Japanese, but during shiai just adept and do your own Kendo.

[Halcyon]

I agree, that's why I am surprised by the comment that JPN team was Off-Balanced by it. I have seen enough videos to say they should be awfully familiar with it.
I agree. Those of us who come to kendo relatively late in life outside of kendo hotspots like Japan or Korea might have an impression that kendo is somehow supposed to be "gentlemanly" or whatever noble adjective you'd like to attach to it. But there's a lot of roughness in kendo, both mental and physical. Call it what you will -- hazing, rough-housing, whatever. It's there. At its core, kendo is a budo.

[Thunder]

I think we all agree that clean kendo is the noble pursuit.

With that said. - If you have an advantage at a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP-- USE IT. Sure you can step up the aggression, if that is one of your characteristics, one of your advantages. If you don't use it, for what it can grant you, then you aren't living up to your potential and in a way cheating your opponent out of "your fight", you would be letting them do their kendo and not yours.

Judging by the opening quote, it may have surprised the Japanese team- and if memory serves me correctly, that is one of the poisons of Kendo.

One thing I know for sure, we can all sit back and judge all we want. But 95% of us wouldn't last 6 seconds against anyone in that field/level- So should we really be judging them for their technique? No, I will leave that up to their coach.

[DCPan]

This is old hat of course.

But using physical prowness to your advantage when you know someone has a bamboo stick on the centerline is one thing.

I'm not sure it's quite the same when you respect the shinai as a katana, as no one in their right mind would ignore the kensen and tobikomi in, if it is a sharpened razor blade.

So, I'm wondering if some essence of kendo is lost there, when you get into the realm of unnecessary roughness.

But yeah, I'm not buying that Japanese team off balanced by it bit...the video clip of Harada against a Korean team member in the individual rounds of the last WKC wasn't exactly gentlemanly.

YMMV.

[Fass]

as for the japanese awareness to "roughness", apart from it's immense warrior history, if you simply watch an all japan police tournament, you'll see how "rough" they can get...

I agree with most of what has been said. Kendo comes from Budo and, going further back, from Bujutsu. So there are aggressive elements in it which will always be present. Be that as it may, it is somewhat more fulfilling to engage in "good" Kendo (technically and "spiritualy" good) than with "bad" Kendo (hugging, cheap shots...) Nonetheless, one of the great lessons I've learnt with Kendo is to be able to adapt to whatever appears in front of me and not be alarmed or disrupted by it. Plus, as a Jodan player, I'm used to people rushing into me to avoid getting hit and turning up their aggression level to "cancel out" my Jodan. So, it's something inevitable.

But, as everything in life, there is always a counter-attack or way around a problem. Move aside, get stronger, develop a technically good taiatari, move away with hiki waza and speed, among so many other possible ideas. It's our job to find out which one works best for one's own mind and body. You can't just stick to saying "that's unfair" and stay put. Renshu, renshu!!

And, if it really gets excessive, in time there will be counter-measures done by shinpan and the rules will get stricter or there will be more attention on how "rough" a shiai is getting... But I really think that the real solution is to learn how to face someone like that and neutralize him/her...

Hope it helps :D

[Paikea]

Although may not have been meant that way it certainly reads like a dig at the US.And perhaps, laying groundwork for some "interesting" variations on officiating?

[DCPan]

I think while learning how to deal with roughness is definitely valuable, I am also concerned that the perceived roughness of kendo may prevent some people from even consider partcipating or starting kendo....

There's also the concern of, while I like kendo, I don't want to get so hurt that I can't do my day job...having to limp around because your achilles got popped from rough practice is certainly not my cup of tea....

It is one thing for the pros to play rough, quite another for the average joe.

[JByrd]

This is old hat of course.

But using physical prowness to your advantage when you know someone has a bamboo stick on the centerline is one thing.

I'm not sure it's quite the same when you respect the shinai as a katana, as no one in their right mind would ignore the kensen and tobikomi in, if it is a sharpened razor blade.

So, I'm wondering if some essence of kendo is lost there, when you get into the realm of unnecessary roughness.

But yeah, I'm not buying that Japanese team off balanced by it bit...the video clip of Harada against a Korean team member in the individual rounds of the last WKC wasn't exactly gentlemanly.

YMMV.

Once again, DCPan voices my sentiments exactly. I think the physical roughness is not so useful from the standpoint of technical effectiveness, but is used to try the opponent's mental toughness. Nobody likes being brutalized, and it can make you lose your cool.


up their arsenal

So that's where they pulled that hiki-nuki-suriage-thingy out of!


witch our sensei teaches (if she does not do that her self.)

A witch! So that's how she makes those magical seme mind-rays come out of her eyes!

I'm learning all kinds of things here today.

[Charles Lockhar]

i must say i prefer nice clean Kendo.

Then it's probably good if they're rough on you. [Disclaimer, I'm a total noob, so everything I say could be (and probably is) totally wrong!] I think kendo should put you out of your desired element. That teaches you to deal with things outside of your comfort zone, and how to bring yourself back into your comfort zone. That's just my take on it though.


When my dojomates slip into more rough kendo, pushing and pulling etc. i simply make a sidestep or try to go for hiki waza when it slips into a hugfest.

Well, dunno about the "hugfest," usually we do that later, after a few beers, when the really sad songs come on the juke box and we start crying. But you pretty much made my point: your opponents do what you consider rough kendo, and you get the opportunity to practice dealing with it.

Rough kendo though, at least as I think we're talking about it in this context, doesn't necessarily imply unskilled. Plenty folks who seem to be real bangers but are really good.

But I could be very wrong.

-Charles

[Curtis]

Most of the roughest kendo I have dealt with or seen has been by the Japanese. They do not play nice when the match is on the line more often then you might think. Even in keiko it can really get rough.

This is not knitting and clean and pretty is just not always a part of it.

I have seen it in the All Japans and the Worlds.

[Lloromannic]

I got knocked out of a tournament this weekend through a hug fest. The opposing team won the first match, and for me and the final match, it was non-stop rushing into tsuba-zeriai, and refusing to separate. I can see the tactics of it, but it's still bullshit kendo, like a bunch of lame boxers clinching for 12 rounds. People will be whining in 5-10 years when the refs are giving hansoku left and right for dallying in tsuba-zeriai, but we've got no one to blame but ourselves.

This has happened to me too. I dunno though, I can say I lost because the other team used bullshit kendo but I think it's far more accurate to say I lost because my kendo simply wasn't good enough.

If excuses are your thing though...

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you read the article, you'll note it's not a Japanese person making the comments. It's Rainer Jattkowski, who is German.

[b8amack]

This has happened to me too. I dunno though, I can say I lost because the other team used bullshit kendo but I think it's far more accurate to say I lost because my kendo simply wasn't good enough.

If excuses are your thing though...

Oh, I blame myself, as well. Mostly for not thinking clearly, and realizing what they were up to. I would say we were outwitted more than outplayed. You can call that an excuse, if you want. It does seem more of a rules exploitation, than superior ability, to me.

[JSchmidt]

Oh, I blame myself, as well. Mostly for not thinking clearly, and realizing what they were up to. I would say we were outwitted more than outplayed. You can call that an excuse, if you want. It does seem more of a rules exploitation, than superior ability, to me.

Or indifferent refereeing. Both with regards to time wasting and 'rough play', the shinpan has the ability to issue hansoku's.
In Japan they started to call 'wakare' a lot earlier with regards to tsubazeriai and you could really see the difference at last years AJKC. Hopefully that will start to filter down both to the WKC/EKC and from there regional/national competitions.

[xvikingx]

And perhaps, laying groundwork for some "interesting" variations on officiating?
Another very good point. He is already going into the tournament with this attitude. If he is acting as shinpan it doesn't give much confidence in his ability to judge without prejudice. I sincerely hope we are just reading too much into a poorly worded comment.

Also whoever mentioned Harada. !!!! Now THAT is rough kendo. The other day my sensei dragged a 5 or 6-dan to the shomen by the back of his men and choked him out with his do!:cool2:

[Koki]

I don't think the USA vs. JPN match was rough at all. It's shiai... at the WORLD level. What do you expect?

I completely disagree with the guy who said it. And in his position, he shouldn't have that kind of opinion. It made him look like he hasn't had enough exposure of high level kendo.

[ratdeau]

If you read the article, you'll note it's not a Japanese person making the comments. It's Rainer Jattkowski, who is German.
And german kendo I've seen is often rough

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simulacre/475897995/in/set-72157600141470590/

[b8amack]

Another very good point. He is already going into the tournament with this attitude. If he is acting as shinpan it doesn't give much confidence in his ability to judge without prejudice. I sincerely hope we are just reading too much into a poorly worded comment.

Also whoever mentioned Harada. !!!! Now THAT is rough kendo. The other day my sensei dragged a 5 or 6-dan to the shomen by the back of his men and choked him out with his do!:cool2:

Jesus. That's crazy. What'd the guy do?

[bullet08]

not sure who rainer jattkowski is, but the whole thing just sounds like political bs to me. nothing to do with kendo and nothing to do with japan team or us team. they are grown men doing international level of kendo. don't need anyone telling them how to go about doing their kendo.

pete

[Neil Gendzwill]

Mr. Jattkowski is an IKF director.

[xvikingx]

Jesus. That's crazy. What'd the guy do?
He got in line.
I was in line behind him watching and waiting and all I could think was "I wish that was me".

[Charles Lockhar]

He got in line.
I was in line behind him watching and waiting and all I could think was "I wish that was me".

Hell yeah!

-Charles

[Kendoka]

Mr. Jattkowski is an IKF director.

and a shinpan at 14WKC.