Teramoto vs. Park (??)

[tango]

I'm surprised to find no hearty thread discussions about this match...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eddgitkABeE

Comments for the exchanges at 5:07 and 6:24?

[MikeW]

The strike by Park at ~5:07 when looked at on a frame by frame basis looks like his maai may have been too close as well as the fact that it looked like Teramoto partially blocked the strike. Due to the speed of the action its not easy to tell for sure. At normal speed I also had thought Park's strike might be ippon but after looking at it frame by frame its not so clear that it was. (IMHO)

[MikeW]

The 6:24 strike clearly lands on the side of Teramotos men around the ear area and not on top.

[tango]

By the way... head shimpan in that match looked an awful lot like Tagawa-sensei of Detroit!

[jjcruiser]

This is very interesting. Can someone explain why this looks so different in character to me than the various All Japan finals I've seen? Somehow it looks quite different to my naive ignorance of high level kendo.

[eurokendo]

Thanks for comments.
yes, hard to get clear ippon at those close match.
in my opinion, Park's hiki men was still on the men (though not in the centre) while Teromato hide his men.
then I am just wondering if you think Teromoto's men really ippon?
the view from slow motion, it seems to be hit be a side of shinai.
Obviously it's neither arguing but just curious.

[Gideon]

Tango - sure looks like it. I'm jonsing to hear about the whole experience... as well as that match.

oh, and there was a semi-healthy discussion of the match on the WKC Twitter thread a few pages in.

[MikeW]

It does look like Tagawa sensei as shushin in the final match. I know Tagawa sensei was a shinpan at the taikai. Did anyone keep track of the shinpan? I'm pretty sure Ariga sensei's twitter announced the shinpan for the matches.

Eurokendo, from the views I had it looked pretty clearly that the hiki men by Park at6:24 was on the side of the men buton near the top of Teramoto's ear and not in a yuko datotsu area.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There was a lot of discussion of the winning point in Teramoto-Park on the Twitter thread (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21671). Hamish posted a link to a slow-mo of the shinai contact.

My opinion is that it is very hard to judge points from you tube videos. It's difficult to get a sense of the build-up and whether there was a good opportunity/reason, but very easy to nitpick the actual contact. When you are judging live, depending on the angle you can miss seeing the contact but it's much easier to get a sense for the other attributes of the point. That's why, for example, I will raise my flag on a kote I didn't see, so long as the judge with the clear view raises his - I may feel everything was there, and the other judge confirms the contact, so I call it.

In this case, the video confirms the contact was good, or maybe you could argue hasuji was a little off. At any rate, all 3 of the judges watching it live thought it was a point, and at this level they are looking for more than did the shinai hit the target. I'm not about to second guess them.

[tango]

Thanks, Neil... just now read through the Twitter thread to find some of the discussion..


In any case, I would still almost lay down money that shushin was Tagawa-sensei...
Anybody confirm?

[Abramo]

Track was being kept of the shinpan on the board, but you can't see it on the video. I didn't pay attention to it at the time.

Well, I was right there. I can say I and lots of other people felt that Park's hits were pretty good, on par if not better than Teramoto's winning point. Having said that, none of us were right there as close as the shinpan, and we don't have 7-8-dan eyes-of-hell that see fraction-of-a-second differences in strikes. Also much can be told by listening to the strike, and for that you must be close by, specially in that gym (the echo when the gym was empty was uncanny. We had some fun counting how long we could hear the reverberating "pulse" of a fumikomi.)

EDA: In fact I remember feeling that some of Teramoto's own previous attempts were much better than the final point. C'est la vie...

[xvikingx]

In the early videos that came out it was hard to see but in the one Hamish provided it is clearly ippon. That being said I agree with the below:

EDA: In fact I remember feeling that some of Teramoto's own previous attempts were much better than the final point. C'est la vie...
There was one men-uchi from Teramoto that I thought looked great.

[Gtakano]

I was there very near the court, at the third chair line. Park´s men looked nice and clean but sounded oddly because of a partial block and hit near Teramoto´s ear. Teramoto´s men sounded as good as it were near my own ear ... Anyway, IMHO, maybe if it was at old days Park´s had a ippon, but now the recommendations to shimpan says no specifically to this cases - no datotsu bu and lack of crispness - as it was teach me at the 2008 American zone referee seminar.

The most impressive thing, after all, is that Park has no age to use a shaver! I think he will be back ...

[Gtakano]

Edited because an error ! Sorry!

[cminister]

I've been through all those clips that Kendo-World took from this 14 WKC and posted on the YouTube including Park's individual semi-final, women's team final between Japan and Korea and the taisho match of men's team final.

Instead of talking about this specific case only, I feel to share my findings in terms of how to improve preciseness in judgment.

1. Let's start from Park's individual semi-final against Choi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgbA4KPXEcU)from the same team, Korea. The only score was made at 3:43, but in slow-motion, it's confirmed that the hit was on Choi's fingers. Choi overall performed better in that match, but he couldn't advance to the final because of that bad call.

2. Men's individual final (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eddgitkABeE): Many of you are saying that Park's hiki-men was off the center, I think his ki and chance were good enough to score. Refer to chuken match of women’s team final (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X7p9qIJdP0). The hiki-men by Jeon (Korea) at 2:34 was off the center, but scored. Back to Park’s hiki-men, it just didn’t score, that’s it. I wouldn’t say it was a “bad call”, but just happened that way.

Meanwhile, some say Teramoto’s previous men should’ve been a score while some say Park’s previous counter-men had to be. Well, maybe it was because Teramoto’s strike was short and Park’s strike was not in sync with the stomping. So comparing these two, it’s fair enough to me.

4. Moving onto women’s team match, I think this Sempo match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OGPqJJPyno)was probably the worst (people just didn’t pay as much attention as to men’s matches). Yamamoto (Japan)’s first men didn’t touch Lee (Korea)’s men at all, but scored. And at 2:18, Yamamoto’s kote missed the target while Lee’s counter men landed precisely. However, Yamamoto scored again and she won the game. With the two bad calls in a row in favor of Japan and especially in Sempo match, Korea team must have been devastated questioning referee’s fairness.

5. The jiho match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpBeu8x68c). At 1:44, Sakuma (Japan)’s men perfectly landed on Park (Korea), but no call at all, which was a good thing for Korea. After the strike, Park showed an action of giving-up as if she admitted that strike without question, but she had to be in play again as she finds no flag-raise.

6. Lastly, the taisho match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZd3Are3CfY)in men’s team final. To me, the last blow at 4:23 doesn’t seem great. It was shallow and not synced with the foot. If this was a score, Park’s counter-men and hiki-men in men’s individual final could’ve been a score, too.

All in all, referees are not always correct. They’re human being and that’s the way kendo tournament is going in many places. If we can acknowledge that referees can make mistakes, there’s nothing wrong to say that the result this time was made in favor of Japan in overall instead of simply rationalizing the results, which wouldn’t be helpful improve human judgment and reduce debatable instances in the next WKC.

[Hisham]

4. Moving onto women’s team match, I think this Sempo match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OGPqJJPyno)was probably the worst (people just didn’t pay as much attention as to men’s matches). Yamamoto (Japan)’s first men didn’t touch Lee (Korea)’s men at all, but scored. And at 2:18, Yamamoto’s kote missed the target while Lee’s counter men landed precisely. However, Yamamoto scored again and she won the game. With the two bad calls in a row in favor of Japan and especially in Sempo match, Korea team must have been devastated questioning referee’s fairness.


I agree, i don't understand the reason for making that men and kote count especially the men, as you said Judges are only human, that's kendo reality.

[Geordie Bruiser]

As I'm at work at the moment I can't access you tube.

Has there been any vid of the Mens semi-final between Japan and Korea posted?

[bullet08]

it's interesting to watch the video and see what was good call and what was not. however, isn't shimpan's call the final word in shiai? not sure what is the purpose of analyzing the video from perspective of what was actual ippon or not. on the other hand, reviewing it from over all performance of one's kendo would be something else.

having said that three following sentences make more and more sense as i'm looking at shimpan's decisions.

1) life is a b*tch
2) sh*t happens
3) sometimes you just gotta say what the f*ck

pete

[Black Knight]

Everything I need to know about kendo I learned from "Risky Business", eh?

[bullet08]

Everything I need to know about kendo I learned from "Risky Business", eh?

no kidding. after that movie, my life has been down hill ever since.

pete

[baysun]

As I'm at work at the moment I can't access you tube.

Has there been any vid of the Mens semi-final between Japan and Korea posted?

=========

Yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZfGvUXpSDk

[Neil Gendzwill]

You want a controversial point, have a look at what happens just after the 2:00 mark here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfYY5WPVG4A).

[Hisham]

You want a controversial point, have a look at what happens just after the 2:00 mark here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfYY5WPVG4A).

I think Bullet08's third point is the best comment for what happened back then.
3) sometimes you just gotta say what the f*ck

[lexar212]

Yes, the shunin judge is Tagawa-sensei.

Yes, they have to call that hiki-men by Korea.

Flags seemed very slow, heavy for the Koreans.... if they were playing against Team Japan members, and quick for Japan.

You can't say "shinpans are human too, they can make mistakes". At this level? When do you ever see a mistake at All Japan? Come on, most of these kenshi train for 3 years for this tournament. Usually the biggest tournament of their lives, and some don't get another chance to enter this tournament.

Shouldn't the shinpan be more strict on the Japanese team if they are thought/treated as if they are the standards in kendo?:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad::mad:

[nebosuke]

You want a controversial point, have a look at what happens just after the 2:00 mark here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfYY5WPVG4A).

What I think is great about that video is Ariga's composure. I'm sure he was feeling completely robbed at that moment, but he kept it together and didn't really make any outward gesture.

[Legionario]

When do you ever see a mistake at All Japan?
It happens all the time in Japan. And often with even more evidence than what it is possible to deduce from these youtube clips of this last WKC.
Just to mention the first thing coming to mind: at the last All Japans Tomari, a rokudan from Ōsaka who fights in jōdan, ended his competition due to a poorly executed kote strike that the dvd of the competion clearly shows landend on his kote-gashira and not on the datotsu-bui. And this is only an example among many others that I could pull out. I can think of at least two times in which Masahiro Miyazaki won a match at the All Japans thanks to a mistake made by the referee.
So, as you can see, it happens also in Japan and it happens also at the important competitions.

:happy:

[Neil Gendzwill]

What I think is great about that video is Ariga's composure. I'm sure he was feeling completely robbed at that moment, but he kept it together and didn't really make any outward gesture.

Except for losing the kote immediately afterward, which you could maybe attribute to a mental lapse at thinking he'd just scored. Maybe not though, Taro's a very experienced competitor.

[nebosuke]

Except for losing the kote immediately afterward, which you could maybe attribute to a mental lapse at thinking he'd just scored. Maybe not though, Taro's a very experienced competitor.

I actually meant after the kote. To not get some flags you thought you deserved is one thing, but to immediately give up a point just compounds the frustration. I found his restraint at likely being frustrated with both the shimpan and with himself to be the admirable bit. People excuse a lot of poor behavior for reasons like 'you don't understand the pressure they're under' etc., but these circumstances were about as pressure packed as anything. He still put up a good fight for the next ~3 minutes as well, although eventually losing anwyay.

[Raffa]

Yes, the shunin judge is Tagawa-sensei.

Yes, they have to call that hiki-men by Korea.

Flags seemed very slow, heavy for the Koreans.... if they were playing against Team Japan members, and quick for Japan.

You can't say "shinpans are human too, they can make mistakes". At this level? When do you ever see a mistake at All Japan? Come on, most of these kenshi train for 3 years for this tournament. Usually the biggest tournament of their lives, and some don't get another chance to enter this tournament.

Shouldn't the shinpan be more strict on the Japanese team if they are thought/treated as if they are the standards in kendo?:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad::mad:

I think that it was for trying to avoid such a debate that the refree in the final were all non-japaneese or korean.

Shushin in the final: Louis Vitalis (Netherlands)
Fukushin: Mike Davis (UK) e Paul-Otto Forstreuter (Germany)

It would have been better if, as a rule, the shimpan of a certain country cannot judge match where athletes of his own nationality are fighting. I think that now there are enough international refree to make it possible....

[Raffa]

To add "fuel to the blazing flames" as a general observation, i point out the consideration present on the last article of kenshi247 by George Mc Call, more precisely this part on the difference between "old" and actual shiai.

"One other thing is that kenshi have also become technically more advanced: they have got faster and their strikes have become lighter. This makes it more difficult for referees to spot an ippon. You often see such things as one referee raising a red flag and the other white.
The reason strikes are (so) fast is that the shinai are too light. Years ago people used various lengths and weights of shinai, but now both length and weight are defined. People nowadays, however, have a different body type than those before and just after the war [in Japan your average person has become stronger and taller], so we should have a shinai length and weight that matches their proportions. We must do some fundamental research into this area. However, there are many things we have to consider on this point before we can put it into practise, including even the shinai manufacturers themselves."

Complete thread at:
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2009/08/31/lacking/#more-2440

[JSchmidt]

It would have been better if, as a rule, the shimpan of a certain country cannot judge match where athletes of his own nationality are fighting. I think that now there are enough international refree to make it possible....

Erhh, that is the rule at the WKC and EKC.

[Exia00]

I don't get it though, why would shimpan's risk the integrity and 'shame' the art of Kendo just to play favourites?

You have to remember, they have been doing Kendo for far longer than we have... I'd believe that they're judgements are correct majority of the time. Sometimes there are unfortunate mistakes that we make, but that's life we live in.

[xvikingx]

I don't get it though, why would shimpan's risk the integrity and 'shame' the art of Kendo just to play favourites?
Because they are human.
Besides with this rule in effect the losing party can't complain "Oh we only lost because the [insert fiendish cheating country] shinpan was clearly favoring their side".

[b8amack]

I don't get it though, why would shimpan's risk the integrity and 'shame' the art of Kendo just to play favourites?

You have to remember, they have been doing Kendo for far longer than we have... I'd believe that they're judgements are correct majority of the time. Sometimes there are unfortunate mistakes that we make, but that's life we live in.

I can't think of any other sport out there where people would have trouble with the idea that referees A) Have biases B)Sometimes let these biases influence them unduly C) Make mistakes in judgement irregardless of bias. And yes, at least at the shiai level, kendo is a sport.

[Exia00]

Because they are human.
Besides with this rule in effect the losing party can't complain "Oh we only lost because the [insert fiendish cheating country] shinpan was clearly favoring their side".
That's true, but wouldn't you think that shimpans at that level would have a level of morality in order to judge fairly? (okay, there may be a few rare exceptions to the case, but the majority of the shimpans at the WKC would be ethical in that they would be a shimpan with due diligence...


I can't think of any other sport out there where people would have trouble with the idea that referees A) Have biases B)Sometimes let these biases influence them unduly C) Make mistakes in judgement irregardless of bias. And yes, at least at the shiai level, kendo is a sport.
Perhaps soccer ? :P

[xvikingx]

That's true, but wouldn't you think that shimpans at that level would have a level of morality in order to judge fairly?
I would hope so but I don’t think it is totally absurd to think that someone could be biased in their judging.

[b8amack]

Perhaps soccer ? :P

lol... don't they kill refs who make bad calls in some countries?

[Neil Gendzwill]

It would have been better if, as a rule, the shimpan of a certain country cannot judge match where athletes of his own nationality are fighting. I think that now there are enough international refree to make it possible....That is actually the rule, and therein lies part of the problem. Judges from outside of Japan or Korea don't have as much experience judging at a very high level. They also sometimes can be biased towards the Japanese, not intentionally but in the sense that they are expecting them to win and therefore looking for the points there. I know that's a flaw in my own judging, if I know one side is stronger I'm tending to look for points developing from that side, and I have to make myself think of the possibility of a point equally from either side.

[D'Artagnan]

Crikey, after the last WKC everyone was calling the shipan biased AGAINST the Japanese when they lost to the Americans… Particularly in the Seike vs Kawabata match... Now everyone is saying the opposite…