No-mind

[emitbrownne]

Hi,
this is way beyond me, but I was wondering if anyone with any experience could help.
I was considering the concept of no-mind when fencing.
From what I understand it is an ordinary mind where your body mind spirit all work as one. But I cannot get past the fact in my mind that this is reactionary. (reacting to an attack, or posture, or opening) .

assuming the above: how would one initiate an attack... or create an opening?


I realise that this is probably too deep a concept for me at this time, but if I start thinking about it now... maybe in a about 60 years time I will understand.

thanks in advance

Paulo

[Shiro]

I read somewhere you could compare the state of no-mind to a quiet pond.
If you look at the pond it reflects your image. When you hit water it reacts immediately.
Your mind has to reflect what is happening in front of you and nothing else should matter. If you see an opening, react to it. Don't bother about details of how you will hit him, it should be instinctive. Every little event during a shiai is like something that disturbs the surface of the pond.

[KhawMengLee]

heh...a documentary I saw ages ago likened this concept to people who type with both hands and those that hunt and pick. Most people who can type with the former translate words in their head to the screen without effort...this is no mind.

[emitbrownne]

Your mind has to reflect what is happening in front of you and nothing else should matter. If you see an opening, react to it. Don't bother about details of how you will hit him, it should be instinctive. Every little event during a shiai is like something that disturbs the surface of the pond.
Ok.. but still the question... how do you initiate or open an attack when you are reacting??

[GMason]

I have only ever experienced what I would say was Mushin once...... I cut a Kote in a Taikai.... maybe three years ago. I came off the shiajo afterwards, and couldn't remember cutting the kote at all. It just happened I just reacted with out thinking. It wasn't the greatest fastest Kote or anything like that. In fact it was probably pretty crap, But it scored and I didn't have think about it.

It will hopefully happen again but I doubt it... I will just have to wait and see.....

[GMason]

Sounds a bit of a twatish answer, but the only answer I would give is Kihon....... & Keiko.

I think it is the only way you will ever get to a state where you will be able to achieve Mushin.

Personally I can't understand how you could get to a state of Mushin and create an opening. As in my simple world of Kendo I still have to seme...pressure....men. Which is all very diliberate.

Mushin for me at the moment could only be debana waza. As that is probably the only time I would react with out thinking. But this is probably due to my lack of understanding of mushin at the moment I think.

[Shiro]

Ok.. but still the question... how do you initiate or open an attack when you are reacting??

That's a question of feeling. Your opponent moves, breaths, looks for the centre with the tip of his shinai, .... he won't be focused a 100% all the time. You have to feel when he is at a low point.

[LNGUYEN]

It is like taking the opportunity without thinking about it. The more you think, the slower you are and there will be doubted in your mind. You react when you see an opportunity to attack without thinking about it too much and there shouldn't be anything else in your mind that can be distracting (people surround, nervous, doubt, your opponent immage, etc). Like a Zen master, he keeps his mind as calm as possible to think more about the meaning of lives :) and nothing else, like girl next door he should think about :wink:

[hyuna]

You answered your own question when you said "reacting to an opening." You initiate an attack when there is an opening. You move to create an opening when there is an opening.

Ok, the second thing is a little confusing so I will try to explain. When you do something to "create an opening" what are you trying to do? Maybe you mean that the opponent's sword is in the way. Making an opening might be performing harai-waza to clear the center. But if the opponent expects you to do this, when break your kamae to do your harai, your opponent will hit you. So you cannot perform this action unless your opponent is unprepared. In other words, you cannot create a physical opening without there first being a mental opening. That is one example, anyway.

"No mind" is separate from that mechanical stuff. "No mind" is doing all that mechanical stuff naturally, without conciously thinking about each step. It is not the thing you are doing ("reacting"); it is the manner in which you are doing it.

That is the way I think of it, anyway.

[Khabbi]

Isent "No mind" just another word for "being in the zone" ? . where u react without thinking . Kind of like the situation comes up and theres no time to think , u just act ? . I havent been in bogu yet so i cant talk about this feeling in kendo , but ive had it in sports and its a great feeling ,everything ells just dissaperes and its just that moment thats in focus and u react without thinking about it .

I might be way of , it wouldent be the firts time =)



Khabbi

[Musha]

Hi Emit,

Hope this does not sound strange, but I used to play a WW2 flying game with Japanese zeros v American aircraft on the Internet nearly every day for about a year or so. I set up games with the best people in the best people I could find 1 v 1 and have a kill limit. Strangely it was really like kendo. Stalls were when your kamae brakes and if you do that you would crash or get shot down immediately, this could happen when you got scared.

I don't think I got to Fudoshin level but I hardly ever thought about what I was doing, I could play at any time of the day past midnight and fly without thinking at all. And don't think it was like an old saga game like sonic, playing 5 hours strait was really frustrating and hard work :D.

But coming back to the point, I played that game for 5 hours a day nearly every day for a long time so I had experience.
Just have fun try hard I’m sure it will come even if it takes 20 years :D. Musashi said some thing in the line of "Do not examine the martial arts to hard". Don't think to much :wink:. , I know Mark sensei has said that to me more than a few times too.

[samurai999]

I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think you are talking about "mushin". In English slang, it means that you are "in the zone". If somebody is rolling off 3 or 4 quarterback sacks in a row in American Football and the only comment he had was "i really don't know what happened. Everything just sorta came to me". That sorta shows to me that this player was in the zone.

There was a kendo mag a while back where Chris Yang was being interviewed after the Worlds in Santa Clara. He also mentioned that everything in his mind "went white" and doesn't really recall specifically the matches against the Korean and Japanese players that he beat. That sounds like what you defined to me. He was in the zone at that time. No worries, everything was working for him with his kendo at his best. (which means he'll probably beat me to a bloody, pulp)

Tim

[eli1021]

If someone suggested that you need 'no-mind', you are probably either tensing up or hesitating. No-mind is a pretty difficult concept, more than just being "in the zone"; Zen monks can't explain it, neither can western philosophers, so it's rather presumptuous to assume anyone could do so here. (Unless a member is a monk and I just don't know about it. Beuler?) I can't even begin to explain it but here's a practical suggestion: do you do Zazen before and after practice? If so, try to maintain that "open" state of mind during practice. If not, do Zazen.

[Shiro]

I think you guys are right, it's not really about kendo, it's about being facused, whatever you do.

[GMason]

Mushin can't be difficult..... Tom Cruise understood it in about six months..... :wink: :wink:

[Shiro]

Mushin can't be difficult..... Tom Cruise understood it in about six months..... :wink: :wink:

No no no .... Tom cruise understood how he could pretend to understand it in 6 months ;)

[emitbrownne]

No no no .... Tom cruise understood how he could pretend to understand it in 6 months ;)I want to pretend to understand too :D

[Musha]

eli What is Zazen?? :ermm:

[eli1021]

eli What is Zazen?? :ermm:

It means "sitting meditation". Most classes have you do it after class, and some do it before class as well. I did a google lookup and came across this advice for doing Zazen, I think it fits Kendo pretty well: "While practicing, do not seek to gain anything. Without object, only concentrate on the posture, the breathing and the attitude of mind."

[hyuna]

I don't think the concept is that difficult. I think it is everyday and routine.

Do you think "left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, oh, crack, long step now, ok, rebalance... and, right foot, left foot" when walking? When filling a glass with juice, milk, water, etc do you think "85% full, 90% full, ok countdown to shutoff... 3... 2... 1... now!"? No, you just walk. You just fill the glass. It is a natural thing.

In kendo the thing is to stop thinking "ok, he's bouncing his shinai and when it goes up I have an opening, so up... down... up... down... countdown to launch... 3... 2... 1... now!" and to "just hit". This is not really any different, conceptually, from just filling the glass.

[Eldritch Knight]

No no no .... Tom cruise understood how he could pretend to understand it in 6 months ;)

I believe that the quote was sarcasm, Shiro

[Katana]

No mind is quite a concept. If you've read the principles of Samurai, it says... I have no sword, I make no-mind my sword... Well, I don't totally understand that, however, the 'in the zone' feeling is quite common when you are totally completely focused. You have little or no recall of the event, it kind of just happened. I have never experienced this in Kendo, however the level of focus in Kendo is higher than most sports.

[mystic_kendoka]

i experience mushin once... i was putting on my do, i got up, and realized i forgot the back do himo... i sat down again, took my kote's off, and i reached back, and they were ALREADY DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you for reading... my pitiful share in mushin...

[Galo]

Hi,
Mushin is something that is very, very hard to understand, and even more to explain. I can't say what it is, but you know you've had an instant mushin when you react and do something in response to an external action without even thinking about it. Oh, and u also know u can't repeat it easily or as fast as u did in that precise moment.
Before joining Kendo, I trained 2 karate styles and muay thai. I can't say I'm a master in either of them, but in my experiencie I know when I've reached mushin for a very brief instant during combat. When u connect an ippon or make a successfull block/parry/counter secuence in tenths of a second and can't explain how or even why u did it the way u did. It will sound bluff or even stupid, but in The Last Samurai, in some way the fight between Cruise's character and the katana-weilding cops showed the concept of mushin in a "visible" way. U react and fight, and your mind ain't thinking about it, it's just flowing. After the pressure of the instant passes, that's when u can rethink about what just happened and how things happened. When I watched that scene, I couldn't help but feel identified with those very brief instants when I've had mushin. My pals who went to see the flick with me said it was all bullshit, but that's what I would expect from anyone who's never been into martial arts, and it's damn hard to explain it to them. Of course, the laughable part was that Cruise's character was able to be in mushin the whole fight. I beleive that's something only real masters of a martial art can achieve.
For beginners or low level martial-artists as myself, I can only train hard and try to achieve that attitude more often than just once-in-many-times.

[Mushin]

When I am old and lie in my deathbed,
I shall think of my life and look back,



...and see a pillow.

[yangs]

I think it is something about focus.(I don't really understand) Tom was minding too many things. And maybe it means not to preplane your attack. One of my friend in beginer's camp 'calculate' oppournant's moves. (ex: I hit man, he block, I try to go for do, he will block, than I hit man again etc.) And my self, I usually confused by when my oppournent is going to attack and I try to guess where he is going to attack too. Maybe I am the bad example for showing mushin. :smoker:

[ZealUK]

I'm not sure I quite understand the difference between zanshin and mushin. I guess zanshin is awareness that is projected upon an opponent and mushin is a total lack of cerebral perception.

I've been trying to practice zazen on a regular basis, but its hard finding time, and maintaining focus on your own. I find counting breaths and chasing breaths helps a lot, but you have to maintain posture properly to focus on your tanden.
Its really hard to abandon counting and think of nothing at all. Thoughts just keep bubbling up, but the improtant thing is to let them pass and not concentrate on them. I really can't comment on this however as it would be like the blind leading the blind.

[Paul Kerr]

Check out some of the works by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi if you want a good description of some of these states from a psychologist's perspective. Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060920432/ref%3Dase%5Fbrainchannels04/102-6648661-4101752) is a good place to start.

[ACRAWFORD]

This is a simple concept in fact we all do it. It is when you try to do it that it is unabtainable.

For example watch a baby leaning to eat with a spoon or whatever they use in your country. At first more gets on the floor than in there mouth. However with practice and time, because it is a technique it becomes second nature to them. Do you think ok put spoon into food, scoop food, lift to mouth, open mouth, place spoon in mouth, drop or scrape food onto toungue, chew, chew , chew, swallow. No you just do it.


To obtain no mind is simple time and repetition of a technique so that it is executed with out your concious mind conneciting the dots so that the body can move.

So Practice practice practice

Andre R Crawford

[kageXkaze]

Okay... I may be a beginner but in somethings (not kendo yet but i hope soon) I have experienced something like mushin (I hope i spelled that right [sorry if it isnt]). Whenever I catch myself in a "blank state of mind" I notice that my breathing is very constant... Not panting but sort of like a breath in my nose and out with my mouth. My eyes suddenly reacts to anything that moves, my hands, feet, arms, body feels like nothing... In fact I kind of go numb... I feel as if nothing is around me... My fingers twitch at a slight movement and I hear the quietest footstep. I don't remember blinking at all in this state of mind... So you never really know if your in "it" or not. I know this first part doesnt really help but i have made one observation from this. Before entering this state of mind I... How do you say... "Feel" it... I dont think what so ever. I let go. I forget about the past and future and remember only the present. I understand it...Suddenly I blank out and before i know it im kicking but in quake (yes quake... but hey i do enter a "blank state of mind"). This is the reason for meditating. Clear your mind and think of nothing else. Yes... Thinking of thinking too much is still thinking. Just forget about it. Don't think "relax" feel "relax. Don't feel your arms doing suburi "just do it." Practicing is the time when you think but when you spar and stuff... Or when your in combat dont remember... Dont know... But FEEL that the present moment is the only thing exist. And logically its true! Think about it... If your in the present moment then what will come next? Nothing if you dont win... What of the past moment? Who cares? Don't try and think "blank" cause you still be thinking. Dont think "blank state of mind" because it becomes unreal. Don't think during meditation because you'll really think it's unreal. Dont look into psychology and forget everything logical and spiritual. Thats the time you feel and kind of think how unreal this is. Here's a good example concentrate on your breathing... Do you see how strange your breathing sounds? How you breath in and out? Now that you think about it doesnt it seem strange we have to breath every so often, ignoring the logic and science behind it. Or say your name a lot. After a while doesnt it sound a tad bit strange. But still when you dont think about it... It's normal. Your name called every day, and (hopefully) you respond to it. You breath everyday with the thought that your breathing sounds strange or feels strange... It's reaction. Meditation and practice. Practice will help you to "feel it" Your body will understand it and will be as instinct as walking and breathing. Meditation will aid you in this. Scientifically (if you want scientific evidence) at least 30 minuets of REM sleep will help you retain more of what you just studied... In this case meditation will help you. Unconciously (if done correctly) you'll remeber what you just learned and in the future see what you have to improve on (thats why you should meditate before and after practice). I know this sounds very complcicated (and I hope not corny). But this is what I feel in a "mushin-like" state and my observations... Thats why I ownzor at quake... Unless there using rockets on a excessive server with an auto aimbot

[not-I]

Thanks for this interesting thread. It's funny trying to describe something we're familiar with, but which everyone agrees is pretty much indescribable. It seems it's best described by examples, or simply best-experienced first hand.

Having practiced zazen for some years now, it believe that meditation is an excellent way to cultivate mu-shin, "no-mind," or as it is also defined, "lit. 'innocence'; in Zen an expression for detachment of mind, a state of complete naturalness and freedom from dualistic thinking and feeling." (Shambahala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen)

I don't really want to add too much to what has been said, except to provide a few more references for those who are interested in getting info on meditation or giving it a try.

There is a ton of stuff on the web about zazen and other meditation methods, and this is a decent linkpage on zazen: http://www.well.com/www/btanaka/dw.html

Omori Sogen, who was a Zen master and swordsman, wrote an excellent introduction to Zen training, entitled, um, An Introduction to Zen Training;

Csikszentmihaly's book, which Paul mentioned, is a good read on the psychological aspects of "flow";

And James H. Austin - Zen and the Brain is a great, albeit huge and difficult neurological survey of the effects of zazen. (Simply put, Austin draws on scientific evidence to explain how through meditation, the brain learns to bypass unnecessariy "processing" in the frontal lobes, providing access to more direct perceptions, which is experienced as transcending subject and object, i.e. "forgetting our selves" or "not-thinking".)

Of course, the best way to learn about zazen is to try it, and as it seems that there are a few zazen-practicioners around here, I'm sure one of us would be happy to venture some answers to any more detailed questions others might have about the actual technique.

Zen and Japanese swordsmanship, have a lot in common btw. Zen Buddhism was once considered the "religion" of the samurai, and perhaps someone can recall that quote that plays on the kanji characters "zen" and "ken" (sword), something like "the way of the sword is the same as the way of zen"?

not-I

[Musha]

I wanted to try meditation at one time but it is so expencive about £15 per session about 5 times as much as my 2 hours kendo class.

Miyamoto musashi was buddhist and I beleve that when people talk about "The way" "The way of the sword". It is akin to the way of enlightenment. As with other arts like Shoudo Japanese painting that are difficult and take years to learn.

I read that a 道場　Dojyo was in old times where Buddhist monks 坊さん whent to pray because 道 means the way "The way to enlightenment".
剣 ken 刀 katana 剣道 just mean the sword and the way of the sword but the 道 dou part is related to Buddhist enlightenment.

[litige]

I wanted to try meditation at one time but it is so expencive about £15 per session about 5 times as much as my 2 hours kendo class.


There is a lot of info and how-to's on meditation on the net. You don't have to spend your money on courses. Since you seem to be very good at doing what is written in books or the internet, you should do it pretty quicly.

[Musha]

Since you seem to be very good at doing what is written in books or the internet, you should do it pretty quickly.

The only think I have ever tried to learn without any instruction is Nito and that is because it is related to Kendo :D. I think it is extremely frustrating to learn some things without a teacher and although Meditation might seem like just sitting some where closing your eyes and relaxing. I don't think it is a think you can learn alone :).

I also don't know what people think of me, but almost all the techniques I have learned from my book I have practised at my dojyo with teacher or Senpai instruction. I'm just revising and looking at the techniques in detail and slowed down to try and understand as much as possible.

[ZealUK]

I found this book very useful....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0834801140/104-3971040-8987927?v=glance

Zen Training by Katsuki Sekida. The scientific explanations of the effect of zazen are very interesting. Also a good guide to practicing zazen.

I find doing zazen at home alone quite difficult. I think its better to practice with other people so that you are kind of forced into the action. Alone its all to easy to find excuses to stop. I suppose that has a lot to do with how long you have practiced for, and your level of self discipline. Mine is evidentally not so good.

[not-I]

Well, zazen can be practiced alone, but there are numerous reasons why practicing regulary at a zendo, in a group, with a teacher is better. That 15 quid per session you mentioned does sound pretty steep though. I'm not suggesting it of the class you tried, but there are a lot of bogus zen groups and courses around, professing to teach some kind of "Zen". High fees are usually in reverse proportion to authenticity and qualifications of the teacher.

There is a lot more to doing Kendo than dressing up in a hakama and waving a stick around, just as there is a lot more to Zen than dressing in black and pretending to meditate. Zen training is essentially about reshaping the mind, or in semi-neurological terms, re-wiring the brain, possibly leading to an ultimate breakthrough of "seeing your own true nature", i.e. mental/spiritual freedom -- not an easy task after so many years of conditioning by parents, teachers, society, etc. While I'm sure there are some good, though not traditionally authorized, teachers out there, it seems wisest to practice within an authentic tradition, whether it be Chinese Ch'an, Korean Son, or Japanese Zen. As in Kendo, finding a good osho or roshi (analogous to a sensei) within an acknowledged lineage is key. In fact, because of the nature of the subject (your mind), having a bad roshi can be much more dangerous than having a bad sensei. So if you want to find a teacher, be careful.

If you're really interested, you can check out this link for a mind-furnace near you...

http://iriz.hanazono.ac.jp/zen_centers/country_list_e.html


...but be sure to check out "demonination" and lineage. Then you can look up the specifics about Soto, Rinzai, etc, and see what catches your eye (I practice Rinzai Zen of the Myoshin-ji lineage, myself). Oh yeah, and my advice is to stay away from Zen Association International. They're big and everywhere, but their founder's lineage, as well as his many successors', is heavily disputed and they were tagged with a warning by a major cult-watcher org as well.

The only think I have ever tried to learn without any instruction is Nito and that is because it is related to Kendo :D. I think it is extremely frustrating to learn some things without a teacher and although Meditation might seem like just sitting some where closing your eyes and relaxing. I don't think it is a think you can learn alone :).

I also don't know what people think of me, but almost all the techniques I have learned from my book I have practised at my dojyo with teacher or Senpai instruction. I'm just revising and looking at the techniques in detail and slowed down to try and understand as much as possible.

[litige]

Meditation might seem like just sitting some where closing your eyes and relaxing. I don't think it is a think you can learn alone :).


The mind is quite powerful, so you can condition it to some extent. Religion is one conditioning methods, because the conscious and the subconscious are connected primaly in a one way fashion. But with practice, and by knowing yourself, you can work in harmony with the subconscious. Just knock at the door once in a while.

[Musha]

I'm not thinking of going seriously into mediation right now but as with Japanese language learning maybe I could get a book and then do some thing more later on.

In the Uk it seems Buddhism is more on the Tibetan side than Japanese Zen. I would prefer Zen to Tibetten because I know much more about Japan.
I'll watch out for Zen Association International though. Maybe like that Falun dong that lorries people in thinking it is a nice Chinese Tai chi group.

And thank you for your post Litige sorry if I said you were a bit of a troll but you do say some bad things some times though lol :D. I think this forum poisons peoples minds.

[litige]

And thank you for your post Litige sorry if I said you were a bit of a troll but you do say some bad things some times though lol :D. I think this forum poisons peoples minds.

NoProb. Sorry if I inirited (spl?) of the unpatience of my dad.

[not-I]

The mind is quite powerful, so you can condition it to some extent. Religion is one conditioning methods, because the conscious and the subconscious are connected primaly in a one way fashion. But with practice, and by knowing yourself, you can work in harmony with the subconscious. Just knock at the door once in a while.
I'm not sure i understand what you're saying, although i think i get your point at the end. Conscious and sub-conscious connected in a one-way fashion? Is that C.G.Jung?

As to conditioning (i.e. our behavior and thought-patterns being shaped by stimulus/response and rewards/punishments): We begin to be conditioned already in the womb, and then get the major treatment in our early years by our parents. Later, teachers, priests, friends, TV, etc. condition us even more. While many religions or psycho-therepeutic practices (such as evangelical Christianity and fundamentalist Islam or NLP and "flooding" therapy) re-condition us, the goal of Zen practice (or practically any meditative practice, for that matter) is to de-condition us, i.e. get us to the state where we no longer posit a subject-object distinction or an ego apart from the "outside world," where we are no longer feeding our perceptions through unnecessarily cognitive processing, but "seeing them as they really are" -- the state of "no-mind" which this thread is supposed to be about. This state of mind is virtually impossible to maintain for long periods of time, but as evidenced by several posts, it seems we've all been there on occassion. But no-mind does not mean forgetfulness or "anything goes." Ultimately, it means experiencing, not just theoretically "knowing" that the Self is an illusion. In Zen terms, "No-mind" is the same as True Self, which is "no-self."

Also, Zen is not, strictly speaking, a religion, at least not in the western sense of the word. Although there are many "religious" practices in Buddhism as a whole, it generally leaves the question of "God" aside, lays out a program for individual liberation from suffering rather than appealing to supernatural powers, and always stresses the importance of experience, rather than belief. While Zen is a school of Mahayana Buddhism and maintains some of the latter's ritualistic aspects, it developed in combination with Chinese Daoism and often takes the above-mentioned traits of Buddhism to what would appear to be radical extremes. Hence, the examples of the old Zen masters saying things like "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha," which could be interpreted as "If you are thinking in concepts, rather than just directely perceiving things as they are, knock it off!" Obviously, language is full of concepts, just like this post, and we need language to get by as human beings, but one of the points is also to not get trapped in language.

OK, much ado about "nothing." I agree with you that one must know "oneself" to live in harmony with "oneself" and the rest of the world, but the real whammy of a question is "what is my 'self'?" Meditative practice can sometimes provide answers to just this question.

Cheers, not-I.

[not-I]

I'm not thinking of going seriously into mediation right now but as with Japanese language learning maybe I could get a book and then do some thing more later on.
In the Uk it seems Buddhism is more on the Tibetan side than Japanese Zen. I would prefer Zen to Tibetten because I know much more about Japan.

Some excellent books have already been suggested in this thread. Or you can have a look at this link: http://www.ebslr.org/zazen.htm . You'll find that the zazen posture is not much different from mokuso, which we do at the beginning and end of kendo practice, except that in zazen, you sit for 25 minutes or more and should be sitting in the lotus position, rather than in seiza, although the latter's also possible. Important things to note: in any case, your knees should be resting on the floor and not floating and your eyes should be half-open, not closed! As mentioned in the site, repeatedly counting your exhalations from 1 to 10 is a good way to focus on your breath and can be quite a challenge if you're just starting. It also shows how much the mind really wanders.

Yes, Tibetan Buddhism is quite popular in the west, mainly due to the ubiquitous media presence of the Dalai Lama and the rich imagary of the Tibetan tradition. Tibetan Buddhism often uses visualization in their meditations and is full of ritual and "magic" derived from early shamanic practices. While Vajrayana (the branch of Buddhism which is mostly practiced in Tibet/Nepal/Bhutan -- the other branches being Hinayana (Theravada) and Mahayana) is certainly Buddhism, its form is very different from the stripped-down, minimalistic Zen Buddhism of Japan, which you've probably noted has had a great influence on Japanese art and culture in general (tea ceremony, rock gardens, wabi-sabi, etc.)

Sorry for being so wordy in these last two posts. i just find it hard to talk concisely about stuff like this without perpetrating criminal over-simplification.

not-I.

[John W]

I can't remember where I heard this saying, I think it is related to this post though....

"The mind and sword are powerful weapons. When combined they are deadly.
To become a master swordsman you must silence one and make fierce the other".

Some of my best cuts in kendo have happened when I told my brain to be silent.

My 2 cents.

[Musha]

I got a book yesterday called 'An Introduction to Zen Training, The classic text on Rinzai and Zen Training-by One of the Foremost Masters of Twentieth-Century Zen' Omori Sogen introduction by Trevor Leggett.
It seems really interesting but is getting a little hard to understand even from the beginning. But if Zen was easy people would not spend there life learning it. Omori is Japanese and also practices budo so it seemed a good book for me to start with :D.

P.s John W, I think that is what is meant by Fudoshin one of the key sayings in Kendo. The sword should not be an instrument you pick up and then put down but one with your body.

[not-I]

I got a book yesterday called 'An Introduction to Zen Training,
[...] I think that is what is meant by Fudoshin one of the key sayings in Kendo.
Hi again, Musha,

That's an excellent book, although admittedly the first couple chapters seem a little difficult, mainly due to Omori Roshi wanting to compare and contrast Zen with western religions and talking about different motivations for doing Zen. The rest is pretty straight-forward though (at least in theory :wink: ).

Here are some links about the guy:
http://www.izs.org/newsite/about/Omori_Sogen.htm
http://www.shinjinkai.org/zenmaster.html

I once did a seminar with one of his successors named Sasaki Genso Roshi (Roshi is a Zen title similar to sensei--it literally means "old man"), and besides Hojo (a bokken form), he also added Shodo (calligraphy) to the mix, which might have been a bit much. It's hard enough just sitting zazen properly.

Fudoshin, btw, does not really refer to the sword and mind being one (although it could be indirectly interpreted that way and certainly fits in describing John's experience). Fudoshin is Fudo-mind/spirit. Fudo is a symbolic Buddhist deity that carries a sword and a rope, the former to cut off delusion, and the latter to bind enemies of the Dharma. He is sort of a patron saint of swordsmen, as his mind never moves, even in the heat of battle. Immovable mind doesn't mean being a zombie, it means that the mind doesn't stop anywhere, e.g. at a nice kote-strike, but flows in continuous freedom. The mind continues, but "thinking" is stopped. In a way, it's another name for Mushin. The 17th century Zen master Takuan Soho wrote a whole essay about Fudoshin, contained in William Scott Wilson's translation The Unfettered Mind (highly recommended reading).

Anyway, here are a few pix of and info on Fudo Myoo:
http://www.shingon.org/deities/jusanbutsu/fudo.html
http://people.brandeis.edu/~eschatt/ImmortalWishes/fudo.html
Not someone to be messed with. :shocked:

[Jon Braeley]

Just passing by, but I could not resist a reply on this topic.
The "No-Mind", as in Mushin, is not really found in zazen or zen training. There are similarities, yes, but Mushin is more applicable in martial arts context, than anything found in zazen.
Mushin does not mean an empty mind or no thought, but rather a moving mind, under change. But it is done in a natural state with no conscious action. In Japanese, "Shizen-Tai" is quite appropriate ... a natural state of being. In the context of martial arts, we then arrive at spontaineity.
In fact, more than the budo arts, this concept is more applicable to TaiChi !!
In Chinese, the term Wu-wei is similar to Mushin.. of not forcing the mind and this is the essence of self defence in Tai Chi, to achieve spontaineity.
I have spent time in Japan and China and spoke at length on this subject from Shaolin monks and the Taoist priests at Wudang to masters of karate, Aikido and Kendo and Kyudo. In Japan last november I interviewed Moriteru Ueshiba (Aikido Doshu) on this subject. He related this state (No-mind) to the word "Sumikiri" which goes one step beyond Mushin, in that not only are you in a state of a natural calmness, but also very much part of your space as you move. He calls this stillness within movement.
I heard this same sentence come from a Priest at Wudang Mountain, when he described this in Tai Chi terms, so it is a universal concept.
Hope my 2 cents helped.

[not-I]

Hi Jon,
thanks for taking the time to contribute, and, as this is your first post, welcome to kendo world forums!

Allow me to address your comments.

The "No-Mind", as in Mushin, is not really found in zazen or zen training. Mushin does not mean an empty mind or no thought, but rather a moving mind, under change. But it is done in a natural state with no conscious action. [...]
I'm not sure you read the whole thread, but there was no assertion that Mushin is only to be found in Zazen or that Zen Buddhism has exclusive claim to it. We shouldn't get caught up in semantic confusion or sectarianism, but the Ch'an/Zen literature is full of references to Mushin or Muga-mushin. To say that it is "not really found there" is simply false. Certainly, deep meditative states in Zazen are more properly titled Samadhi (Jap. Sanmai or Zanmai), but the "goal" of most meditative practices, especially Daoist meditation and Zazen, is not to just "sit", but through "sitting" to cultivate spontaneity in action, whether it be martial arts or washing the dishes, indeed to cultivate Mushin. You may also be aware that Ch'an, the original Chinese form of Zen, developed in China, mixing Buddhist and Daoist elements of practice and theory, and that the Shaolin are of Ch'an Buddhist denomination.

Having said this, i wholeheartedly agree that Mushin is a universal concept (or more properly, phenomenon) which me might refer to in English as "non-duality" or even "flow" and is definately "active" rather than "passive". "Wu-wei" is surely related, and there are obviously forms of "meditation in action," such as Tai Chi. However, as Mushin transcends normal dualistic experience and needs to be experienced as such, it is something that will always defy attempts at precise definition or intellectual speculation. Since you seem to be reseaching this concept, you might be interested in David Loy's book Nonduality, a comparative study of Hindu, Daoist and Buddhist understandings of the phenomenon. In any case, we seem to be speaking about the same thing, Zen or No-Zen :wink: :

"The conscious mind is Ushin No Shin contrasting with Mushin No Shin, mind unconscious of itself. Mushin literally means "no-mind," it is the mind negating itself, letting go itself from itself, a solidly frozen mind allowing itself to relax into a state of perfect unguardedness." (D.T.Suzuki, Zen and Japanese Culture)

"A mind unconscious of itself is a mind that is not at all disturbed by effects of any kind. It is the original mind and not the delusive one that is chock-full of affects. It is always flowing, it never halts, nor does it turn into a solid. As it has no discrimination to make, no affective preference to follow, it fills the whole body, pervading every part of the body, and nowhere standing still. It is never like a stone or piece of wood. If it should find a resting place anywhere, it is not a mind of no-mind. A no-mind keeps nothing in it. It is also called Munen, "no-thought." Mushin and Munen are synonymous" (Takuan Soho, The Mystery of Prajna Immovable)

[Karaken]

"A mind unconscious of itself is a mind that is not at all disturbed by effects of any kind. It is the original mind and not the delusive one that is chock-full of affects. It is always flowing, it never halts, nor does it turn into a solid. As it has no discrimination to make, no affective preference to follow, it fills the whole body, pervading every part of the body, and nowhere standing still. It is never like a stone or piece of wood. If it should find a resting place anywhere, it is not a mind of no-mind. A no-mind keeps nothing in it. It is also called Munen, "no-thought." Mushin and Munen are synonymous" (Takuan Soho, The Mystery of Prajna Immovable)

Good point, I've been reading this thread for a while and this is what's been missing in describing the concept of Mushin - the abandon of self therefore abandoning the instinct of self preservation. You become much more powerful once you stop caring about your own safety. Anyway, here are some aspect of Mushin, in my opinion, that may be obvious.

- Elimination of "thinking" in the process of action - it's almost a reaction without thinking but in a higher form, you proact instead of react but without thinking. ( Debana in it's highest form is to attack when you're opponent is thinking about an attack but not even started to move ). I've read people deacribing some Hachidan sensei might posess this ability. So contrary to some description, Mushin can be high-alertness with Fudoshin.
- Mushin is almost like a being a third party to yourself therefore you maintain calmness without fear, doubt or uncertainty ( Extreme case of Fudoshin )

Case in point : You're pitcher and you just have pitched over 100 mile fast ball which the batter hit back to your face. If you're frightened you might just be frozen right there and dead. If you have some training or naturally calm, you might be able to duck just in time. If you are a major league pitcher however, you might still be able to catch the ball. None of these action can happen with any assistance of brain activity. There simply is no time for that.I think this describes basic level of Mushin.. What do you think?

Center

[not-I]

- Elimination of "thinking" in the process of action - it's almost a reaction without thinking but in a higher form, you proact instead of react but without thinking. ( Debana in it's highest form is to attack when you're opponent is thinking about an attack but not even started to move ). I've read people deacribing some Hachidan sensei might posess this ability. So contrary to some description, Mushin can be high-alertness with Fudoshin.
- Mushin is almost like a being a third party to yourself therefore you maintain calmness without fear, doubt or uncertainty ( Extreme case of Fudoshin )

[...] What do you think?
I think you've hit the nail on the head. The first half of this thread provided a lot of kendo (and even computer game) experiences similar to your baseball example. The second half dealt with methods to cultivate mushin as a state of mind that occurs more and more often (total concentration during training, meditation, etc.).

In "emergency" situations, our brains automatically switch to an instinctual mode based on our ancient animal lymbic system and deeper brain structures, leading to the typical reactions of fright, flight, or fight (the three types of pitchers in your baseball example). With training, we can condition our minds to take on more of an intuitive mode (in neurological terms, bypassing the frontal lobes and unnecessary processes in perception and cognition), not only in situations where our life is in danger, but also in more "banal" situations, such as practicing kendo in bogu. The mind is still present, but like you said, it doesn't "think," it proacts rather than reacts, and is like an objective observer which doesn't "stop" anywhere (fudoshin). Instinct is a natural animal reaction, but intuition, or its highest form, mushin, is a state of mind that makes use of total human potential, where the petty everyday "self" is a hinderance that simply disappears. And this phenomenon clearly has ramifications for our whole understanding of "self" and "other".

[Twobitmage]

I always thought of it as that level where you dont have to try hard anymore, and it sorta becomes like a natural thing for you to do whatever it takes to win

its a little bit more than a reaction, its like a natural state. Like a basketball doesnt "react" when you bounce it, it just does because thats just what basketballs DO

[not-I]

I always thought of it as that level where you dont have to try hard anymore, and it sorta becomes like a natural thing for you to do whatever it takes to win

its a little bit more than a reaction, its like a natural state. Like a basketball doesnt "react" when you bounce it, it just does because thats just what basketballs DO
Sure, but a basketball has no concept of winning or losing either, as it has no sense of "self" or "other" i.e. total mushin.

[Karaken]

Sure, but a basketball has no concept of winning or losing either, as it has no sense of "self" or "other" i.e. total mushin.

It reminds me of High School days - Sometimes we played for 100 baskets - many times it ran long into the night but funny thing is when it gets dark, you lose the concept of complication ( distance, aim etc.. ) all you have is this instinct that you have to throw the ball towards somewhere ( you can vaguely make out the backboard ). You'll be surprised to know how many of those were " Nothing but the net".. No thinking, no external disturbance, just instictive reaction with one purpose.. Mushin + Fudoshin - You have to be somewhat good to begin with but I think it's close..

Center

[Old Warrior]

One of the things that has attracted me to fencing (both European and Kumdo) is the fact that while you are doing it - the rest of the world disappears more easily. I have a very complicated life and a busy professional practice, but when I put on the uniform, the rest of the world gets more distant. Only rarely, when I face an opponent, does my mind wander. The men helps because it gives you tunnel vision where the opponent seems more prominent because your peripheral vision is limited. When there are significant pressing outside stressors, it is very tough for me to bout well. When the rest of the world is being relatively benign I can get lost in the monent and find that mindset where reactions seem to "just happen". I love it, when some action just seems to jump out of me, without any thought whatsoever.

[Musha]

I don't really consider my self a Sporting person, but I can't remember a time when I was not doing some type of sport. Maybe only when I left school and went to college. I think that all sport makes you forget your normal life and that is why so many people do and like sports.

I read a little about Zazen after another topic that got my interest. I have seen TV programs where monks will hit you with a Shinai on the back when doing Zazen to make sure you are not asleep.
I also read that when you do Zazen meditation you do not close your eyes but see and not see.
I don't see Mushin as just forgetting what I have done or doing things with instinct. I think that is a bad thing. Some times I wonder if I have locked the door when I leave my house, and when I go back it is locked :shocked:. Is this Mushin? No because I lock the door a lot and have a lot and it comes as instinct. If I were to do kendo a lot and strike Kote or some thing and forget I did it, this would be the same as forgetting to lock the door. It is not Mushin.

[Karaken]

I don't really consider my self a Sporting person, but I can't remember a time when I was not doing some type of sport. Maybe only when I left school and went to college. I think that all sport makes you forget your normal life and that is why so many people do and like sports.

I read a little about Zazen after another topic that got my interest. I have seen TV programs where monks will hit you with a Shinai on the back when doing Zazen to make sure you are not asleep.
I also read that when you do Zazen meditation you do not close your eyes but see and not see.
I don't see Mushin as just forgetting what I have done or doing things with instinct. I think that is a bad thing. Some times I wonder if I have locked the door when I leave my house, and when I go back it is locked :shocked:. Is this Mushin? No because I lock the door a lot and have a lot and it comes as instinct. If I were to do kendo a lot and strike Kote or some thing and forget I did it, this would be the same as forgetting to lock the door. It is not Mushin.

I think it is Mushin ( not the forgetting part but the doing it without thinking part ). If one can do kendo as expertly as locking a door, that'll be terrific. However, considering there are no fear, uncertainty and confusion in locking the door, it probably is easy to achieve Mushin there than in Kendo :-)

Center

[Musha]

:rolleyes:

[nonamehandle]

i've found that i'm especially blessed with being able to go into the mushin state in kendo on a frequent basis;

i'm geiko-ing, concentrating, focusing, relaxing my breath, then suddenly!
and next thing i know....the opponent is behind me, bam!

i'm positive that there was a moment of mushin on my part there.

[not-I]

i'm positive that there was a moment of mushin on my part there.
if it really was mushin, by definition it couldn't have been on your, or anybody else's, part. :wink:

[not-I]

I have seen TV programs where monks will hit you with a Shinai on the back when doing Zazen to make sure you are not asleep.
I also read that when you do Zazen meditation you do not close your eyes but see and not see.

It's not a shinai, it's a kyosaku, which is a long flat wooden stick tapered wider at the end. Roughly translated, it is a "stick of compassion," to keep meditators focussed and awake when they're drifting off. The jikijitsu will do his rounds in the zendo and occassionally tap someone to signal what's coming. They gassho, lean over and receive blows to each shoulder blade (two to each shoulder in summer, three in winter). It stings a bit, but during a sesshin (7-day meditation retreat lasting from 3:30am to 10:00pm every day) it can be quite helpful and it also "massages" tense shoulders. And yes, closing your eyes during zazen (or while doing most other kinds of meditation) is a no-no. The idea is to have your eyes half-open and to "see with your hara."

Anyway, getting back to mushin...There is another related concept sometimes mentioned (my sensei mentioned it about a week ago) which i think is prior and prerequisite to true mushin, namely heijoshin. It can be translated as "peace of mind," or more accurately as "constant stable mind." It is the mind that doesn't get disturbed by itself (emotions, feelings, thoughts) or by outside factors (other people, misfortune, a strong opponent, etc.), although these are registered, but stays calm and impeturbable. I think that without first cultivating this in one's everyday life as well as in one's kendo, those moments of mushin will be few and far between. One could say that heijoshin is the basis for "higher" states such as mushin or even satori (but we'd be treading very thin ice in discussing that last one!)

Before using the term "mushin" to describe any spontaneous action or mental "black-out," let alone absent-mindedness, it does us well to remember that it denotes a state that usually can only be reached "at will" with a very high degree of cultivation (decades of keiko or zazen or shugyo). The problem with using it to describe "doing something without thinking about it" such as locking the door or driving a car, is that 99% of the time, the reason we are not thinking about it is because we are thinking about something else. :wink:

P.S. I stumbled across this article today: http://www.michionline.org/smaa/articles/denison_fudoshin.html
interesting...it's about developing fudoshin through combat. just subsitute the jujutsu terms with kendo ones and forget the "street" references, hehe.

[not-I]

... perhaps someone can recall that quote that plays on the kanji characters "zen" and "ken" (sword), something like "the way of the sword is the same as the way of zen"?
Whoopie! I finally tracked down that quote. It's from Omori Sogen's book Ken to Zen (Sword and Zen). The phrase is ken zen ichinyo ("the sword and Zen are one") and is apparently rather old, although the original source is unknown. Anyway, here's a few quotes from the book:

"There can be no doubt that with regard to their ultimate goals and aims, the sword and Zen are identical."

"Zen is the sword of the mind while the sword is the Zen of the sword blade...For a warrior to discharge his duties he must necessarily clarify the origin of life, and transcend life and death in order to reach the absolute realm...This is the reason the destiny of the sword is inevitably connected to Zen."

[Bokuden]

I just read a lot of interesting interpertations of no-mind concept. This is actually what the concept means. After the student reaches a point where a technique is practised so many times repeatatively that it enters the neuro-muscular memory. As musashi says, "THE WAY IS IN TRAINING". If a technique is performed with flawless perfection that is when the swordman is not even thinking about the techinique. Example I was watching a 6th Dan instructor demonstrate some techniques in Kendo to his students. Now While the instructor was thinking about the the technique to demonstrate with students were watching it, it was thought out a and planned while he was thinking about it(slow and methodical). However for a moment the student was not concentrating on aiding the instructor and stood with his bokken in sagan in the threatening kamae, while he was looking out the window. For the demonstration the instructor needed the aids sword in the center, the instructor then performed the most eloquent, flawless and perfect circular parry I have ever witnessed in my life to position the sword for the demo. He did this without thinking about it. "THIS IS NO MIND"