In memory of 9/11 ...

[pgsmith]

This is a copy of an editorial written by Cornel Nistorescu in a local Romanian newspaper, Evenimentul zilei, on September 24th 2001. I thought it said a lot about American spirit. We may bicker and whine, we may be fat and obnoxious, but we do tend to stand together when it's needed.



An ode to America

Why are Americans so united? They don't resemble one another even if you paint them! They speak all the languages of the world and form an astonishing mixture of civilizations. Some of them are nearly extinct, others are incompatible with one another, and in matters of religious beliefs, not even God can count how many they are.

Still, the American tragedy turned three hundred million people into a hand put on the heart. Nobody rushed to accuse the White House, the army, the secret services that they are only a bunch of losers. Nobody rushed to empty their bank accounts. Nobody rushed on the streets nearby to gape about. The Americans volunteered to donate blood and to give a helping hand.

After the first moments of panic, they raised the flag on the smoking ruins, putting on T-shirts, caps and ties in the colors of the national flag. They placed flags on buildings and cars as if in every place and on every car a minister or the president was passing. On every occasion they started singing their traditional song: "God Bless America!".

Silent as a rock, I watched the charity concert broadcast on Saturday once, twice, three times, on different TV channels. There were Clint Eastwood, Willie Nelson, Robert de Niro, Julia Roberts, Cassius Clay, Jack Nicholson, Bruce Springsteen, Silvester Stalone, James Wood, and many others whom no film or producers could ever bring together.

The American's solidarity spirit turned them into a choir. Actually, choir is not the word. What you could hear was the heavy artillery of the American soul. What neither George W. Bush, nor Bill Clinton, nor Colin Powell could say without facing the risk of stumbling over words and sounds, was being heard in a great and unmistakable way in this charity concert. I don't know how it happened that all this obsessive singing of America didn't sound croaky, nationalist, or ostentatious! It made you green with envy because you weren't able to sing for your country without running the risk of being considered chauvinist, ridiculous, or suspected of who-knows-what mean interests. I watched the live broadcast and the rerun of its rerun for hours listening to the story of the guy who went down one hundred floors with a woman in a wheelchair without knowing who she was, or of the Californian hockey player, who fought with the terrorists and prevented the plane from hitting a target that would have killed other hundreds or thousands of people.

How on earth were they able to bow before a fellow human? Imperceptibly, with every word and musical note, the memory of some turned into a modern myth of tragic heroes. And with every phone call, millions and millions of dollars were put in a collection aimed at rewarding not a man or a family, but a spirit which nothing can buy. What on earth can unite the Americans in such a way? Their land? Their galloping history? Their economic power? Money?

I tried for hours to find an answer, humming songs and murmuring phrases which risk of sounding like commonplaces. I thought things over, but I reached only one conclusion.

Only freedom can work such miracles!

[David G]

Please note this is not a critique of the USA!!!

It's great when a country really rallies round. Everyone wants to help in some way, or at least show their support. I just find it sad that it takes some form of atrocity/disaster for it to happen.

This goes for pretty much any country in the world.

For those that wonder why there are troops fighting and dying (which is always a tragedy) put things in perspective: more people died during 911 than the attack on Pearl Harbour.
When I found that out after the attack I was worried Dubya would nuke somewhere!!!

[ender84567]

For those that wonder why there are troops fighting and dying (which is always a tragedy) put things in perspective: more people died during 911 than the attack on Pearl Harbour.
When I found that out after the attack I was worried Dubya would nuke somewhere!!!

Ahh indeed, I remember sitting in class watching the second plane hit the tower and thinking to myself, "I hope they don't re-instate the draft, or worse korematsu "

[Kapplow]

Ahh indeed, I remember sitting in class watching the second plane hit the tower and thinking to myself, "I hope they don't re-instate the draft, or worse korematsu "

I was in class thinking about the lives of my fellow Americans.

[satsumaruma]

This is a copy of an editorial written by Cornel Nistorescu in a local Romanian newspaper, Evenimentul zilei, on September 24th 2001. I thought it said a lot about American spirit. We may bicker and whine, we may be fat and obnoxious, but we do tend to stand together when it's needed.





The American's solidarity spirit turned them into a choir. Actually, choir is not the word. What you could hear was the heavy artillery of the American soul.



What a superb turn of phrase. Really, really evocative.

"the heavy artillery of the American soul"

This should be enshrined somewhere. Seriously, Americans are easy meat to ridicule, but this phrase sums up their/your good stuff just wonderfully.


Please note this is not a critique of the USA!!!



For those that wonder why there are troops fighting and dying (which is always a tragedy) put things in perspective: more people died during 911 than the attack on Pearl Harbour.
When I found that out after the attack I was worried Dubya would nuke somewhere!!!

More perspective.

Whilst the atrocity of 9/11 is still fresh in our minds, did you know that more people are killed on the American continent by road traffic incidents every year than were killed in the Twin Towers. Nearly all were preventable. And yet, their deaths are not enshrined in the hearts of the American people.

Not criticising anything here, just doing my drive safe speech on behalf of Fire and Rescue Services throughout the world.

We don't get that much time on this planet, let's look after each other whilst we are here!

Yours in budo,

Lee

[xvikingx]

Whilst the atrocity of 9/11 is still fresh in our minds, did you know that more people are killed on the American continent by road traffic incidents every year than were killed in the Twin Towers. Nearly all were preventable. And yet, their deaths are not enshrined in the hearts of the American people.
Yeah but nobody conspired to wipe all these people out in a single massive wreck. DOesn't have the same impact.

[satsumaruma]

Yeah but nobody conspired to wipe all these people out in a single massive wreck. DOesn't have the same impact.

Quite.


9/11 was Soo very impactive on all our consciousnesses.

My point though, was that more people die in more mundane ways...are they less worthy of our thoughts just because they had the misfortune to be killed in a way that isn't media fodder?

I am not for one minute saying that 9/11 should not be remembered; just saying that there are other families out there who have lost loved ones in equally tragic circumstances and yet ignored by the rest of the nation because their sad tale is unknown.


Lee

[Manuka]

I agree with Sats, I commuted a bit over an hour to work each day using a highway.
Every week I would be driving the highway and see the crews working on the side of the road.
I would think "Some family has just had their own little 9/11, and they do not even know yet that Daddy or Mommy is not coming home anymore".
Not only that but there will be no trust funds established to make sure their kids get through college.

Eventually I lost that "Can't happen to me" feeling, and decided that I want to stay a part of my childrens lives.
I now have a job at a fraction of the pay, but I can, and occasionally do bicycle to work.

Have not seen a personal 9/11 since I abandoned the highway.
My biggest commute now is to the Dojo :happy:

BTW I was in a communications role during 9/11 and got a commendation and big gift check for what I did that day.
It was a long day

[Kapplow]

Manuka didn't you have the flag of the UN on your profile before? What made you decide to switch and claim the US?

[pgsmith]

My point though, was that more people die in more mundane ways...are they less worthy of our thoughts just because they had the misfortune to be killed in a way that isn't media fodder?
Sorry, but there is an entire galaxy of difference between the two. Here's the official Texan stance on the difference ... One is by choice, one is not. Now, before all of the nitpickers jump on that, I mean that the choice to drive on the freeway, as Manuka pointed out, is up to each individual. Indeed, the choice to get behind the wheel of a car at all is entirely voluntary. To do something dangerous, even though you know it may involve your death, is everyone's right, and is a decision made by hundreds of millions every day. However, in terroristic acts such as 9/11, nobody was given any sort of choice, nor did anyone have any idea that it might possibly happen. This is what makes it such a tragic event. Not because so many lives were lost, dying is a required part of living and thus isn't tragic in and of itself, but because so many lives were stolen. Now that IS a tragedy.

[Wraith]

... One is by choice, one is not..

There's another way to look at that and still come out with the same viewpoint. You could say that the terrorists made a choice to take lives and inflict misery whilst the the victim of a RTA did not choose their fate.

[pgsmith]

... whilst the the victim of a RTA did not choose their fate.
Had to look up what RTA was. Well, I tried to head off the nitpickers, but I guess I just didn't break it down into small enough pieces for you. I'll try again, please read slowly so nobody gets lost this time :) ...

While I'm sure that no accident victim would CHOOSE to get killed in an accident, every single driver made the choice to engage in the inherently dangerous action of getting behind the wheel of a vehicle. If you'll read what I originally wrote, you'll see that I never once mentioned the words fate or destiny. What I mentioned was choosing to engage in a dangerous activity such as driving. If I choose to climb a 200 ft. cliff barehanded (something I used to do when I was younger! :) ) and I fell to my death, then I hardly consider that a tragic incident to the world at large. (So many women would mourn though!) I definitely wouldn't have "chosen my fate" and decided that I was going to fall to my death that day, but since I was engaged in a very dangerous activity, much like driving, it isn't a totally unexpected occurance. However, if I'm sitting in my office at work and some maniac randomly blows me up at my computer, then that would be a much more tragic thing as it is completely unexpected and had absolutely nothing to do with any choice of mine.

Of course, this IS a Texan view, and we very firmly believe that everyone should be able to make their own choices, and then live or not with those choices. I imagine that if you believe people should be protected from themselves and not be responsible for their own actions, then I guess any loss of life would be considered on a par and just as tragic.

[David G]

Of course, this IS a Texan view, and we very firmly believe that everyone should be able to make their own choices, and then live or not with those choices. I imagine that if you believe people should be protected from themselves and not be responsible for their own actions, then I guess any loss of life would be considered on a par and just as tragic.

Loss of life is nearly always tragic. (I say "nearly always" so that people don't mention Hitler, Pol Pot etc.)

The 9/11 attacks were terrible yes. They were made "worse" as we got to see loads and loads of tv images of it happening, not just some grainy b&w movie reel pictures. Some of us saw these things happening live on tv. Even now it still seems unreal. Even things like re-runs of "Friends" or movies set in NY city keep reminding us the towers are gone and how, whenever there are images of them shown. Saw some of "Home Alone 2" at the weekend and Macauly is on top of the towers in that. How the hell did something that big collapse?! (We all now how obviously, it just seems unreal.)

It was also a major attack on mainland USA. I was only half-joking in an earlier post about Dubya nuking somewhere. Early reports were listing 50,000 people working in the towers. I was at work during the attacks, although I had popped round to the tv shop as I couldn't believe what the radio coverage was saying. Later when I realised that 30-50 thousand people could have died I went pale and had to sit down. I was asked by co-workers if it was the thought of all thsoe people dying? I said yes, but was genuinely afraid that a version of WW3 was going to kick off!! What was the USA going to do to a country that did this?! If a state was behind this I was imagining their own version of armaggedon.

It is different to RTA's. But RTA's are still a tragedy.

Also wars don't normally happen after an RTA.

[pgsmith]

Loss of life is nearly always tragic.
I have to disagree. If a person believes that death is tragic, then how dispairing must his life be when he knows that it will end in tragedy? I believe that loss of life is nearly always sad and very often stupid, but rarely do I consider it tragic.

[JByrd]

We may bicker and whine, we may be fat and obnoxious, but we do tend to stand together when it's needed.


We do, though it is sometimes with torches and pitchforks in our hands.

My feeling is that 9/11 is still too fresh a horror to expect most people to have much perspective on it.

[Manuka]

Manuka didn't you have the flag of the UN on your profile before? What made you decide to switch and claim the US?

No, only ever had US flag here.
ergo no decision or switch required.

[Big One]

You can say that people dying on highway or diseases are belong to internal affair. The attack on 9/11 were brought by the outside force and that therefore were called "attack".

I was in the office in Chicago the day of the attacks. After that, Chicago was called for total evacuation. We did it very organized. A few day later, there was a big rally at downtown. At that day, I called America my country indeed.

[Moose]

While this was a truly horrific event what about remembering the 16,000 or so people that are murdered in the USA every year?

[pgsmith]

While this was a truly horrific event what about remembering the 16,000 or so people that are murdered in the USA every year?
We could do that, but the vast majority of those murders are again due to choices made by the victims. Sure, there are tragedies where a complete innocent has had their life taken from them. However, these are definitely the minority by quite a long ways. I live in a large urban area (Dallas/Fort Worth) and there are many murders here annually. Most of them only rate a short blurb in the Metro section of the newspaper as they involve drunken brawls, drug deals gone bad, cheating wives/husbands, or gangs. Only occassionally does one make more of a splash since it involves a guiltless individual taken unawares. Even then, further investigation often determines that the "innocent" victim wasn't nearly as innocent as first believed.

So, if you wish to figure out which of those 16,000 murders that you've statistically quoted are worth me giving a darn about, I will be happy to do so. :)

[Moose]

Well its good to know that everyone murdered in the USA deserves it and that everyone in the WTC was a saint!

[pgsmith]

Well its good to know that everyone murdered in the USA deserves it and that everyone in the WTC was a saint!
Yup! And it's good to know that nobody overexaggerates when they can't summon a meaningful debate. :)

[hl1978]

9/11 was a tragic situation, but what did we americans learn from it?

Not a lot.

I personally learned that appearances matter more than substance to the american public.

[satsumaruma]

Sorry, but there is an entire galaxy of difference between the two. Here's the official Texan stance on the difference ... One is by choice, one is not. Now, before all of the nitpickers jump on that, I mean that the choice to drive on the freeway, as Manuka pointed out, is up to each individual. Indeed, the choice to get behind the wheel of a car at all is entirely voluntary. To do something dangerous, even though you know it may involve your death, is everyone's right, and is a decision made by hundreds of millions every day. However, in terroristic acts such as 9/11, nobody was given any sort of choice, nor did anyone have any idea that it might possibly happen. This is what makes it such a tragic event. Not because so many lives were lost, dying is a required part of living and thus isn't tragic in and of itself, but because so many lives were stolen. Now that IS a tragedy.

Hi Paul,

I must disgaree with this. The choice is not there as such

The people who were killed in the 9/11 attacks did not choose to die but people did choose to kill them through their actions.

People killed by reckless drivers (read drunk, drugged, inattentive etc) do not choose to die either but the people who killed them usually did so without intent.

But this was not my point. My point was the impact on the families, on the victim and the society they lived in. Do those who are not lauded by the press deserve any less than those that are.

Neither the victim of anRTA nor those in 9/11 chose to die on the day that they did. And it is truly awful that their lives were cut short prematurely.

I was merely pointing out the inequality in how such people are remembered. those who died in 9/11 will be remembered by the whole nation - that 8 year old girl mown down by Mr average because he was changing a CD whilst driving and didn't see her chase the ball into road will not.

Was her life any less important.

really not seeking an argument here just trying to explain what I was driving at because I don't think I am putting it the way I mean to. Limitations of te written word compared to the spoken one I guess.

Lee

[Kapplow]

No, only ever had US flag here.
ergo no decision or switch required.


Sorry about that Moose was the one I was thinking about.

[Roberto]

I called America my country indeed.

Auhm.. Since when America is a Country?

[Big One]

Auhm.. Since when America is a Country?

You are right. It should be The United States of America.

I wonder, what are people of the World call us? The American or The United States of American?

[Big One]

Hi Paul,

I must disgaree with this. The choice is not there as such

The people who were killed in the 9/11 attacks did not choose to die but people did choose to kill them through their actions.

People killed by reckless drivers (read drunk, drugged, inattentive etc) do not choose to die either but the people who killed them usually did so without intent.

But this was not my point. My point was the impact on the families, on the victim and the society they lived in. Do those who are not lauded by the press deserve any less than those that are.

Neither the victim of anRTA nor those in 9/11 chose to die on the day that they did. And it is truly awful that their lives were cut short prematurely.

I was merely pointing out the inequality in how such people are remembered. those who died in 9/11 will be remembered by the whole nation - that 8 year old girl mown down by Mr average because he was changing a CD whilst driving and didn't see her chase the ball into road will not.

Was her life any less important.

really not seeking an argument here just trying to explain what I was driving at because I don't think I am putting it the way I mean to. Limitations of te written word compared to the spoken one I guess.

Lee

There are still be different between people dying in 9/11 than any of the accidents or domestic crimes.

By your comparison, Hitler killed less than the rest of the World dying in diseases, accidents, and others. Should he be less evil then?

[Moose]

Why was there no thread with the title "In memory of 4/19"?or did I miss it?

[pgsmith]

I personally learned that appearances matter more than substance to the american public.
It should not have taken you that long to figure that out. It's what our entire political system is based upon. :)

I was merely pointing out the inequality in how such people are remembered. those who died in 9/11 will be remembered by the whole nation - that 8 year old girl mown down by Mr average because he was changing a CD whilst driving and didn't see her chase the ball into road will not.
Was her life any less important.
I understand your point, I just don't agree with it. Any death will have an impact on the friends and family left behind. A child being killed by an inattentive driver is a sad thing. However, I firmly believe that humanity, as a species, needs to give Darwinism some room to work. If a child chases a ball into the street without no concern for their own safety, it's sad but not entirely unexpected that she got run over. The child's parents chose not to teach her to look out for herself, and the child chose to run into the street. Now, if the child was sleeping peacefully in her bed when a drunk drove through her bedroom wall and killed her, now THAT would be tragic. No choices involved in that at all.

Sorry, but I believe that not every life, nor every death, is equal.

Why was there no thread with the title "In memory of 4/19"?or did I miss it?
Because I wasn't alive for either Lincoln's death nor the sinking of the Titanic. Why can't you think of anything intelligent to add to the dialogue, or did I miss it?

[Moose]

Why was there no thread with the title "In memory of 4/19"?or did I miss it?
Because I wasn't alive for either Lincoln's death nor the sinking of the Titanic. Why can't you think of anything intelligent to add to the dialogue, or did I miss it?

How easy people forget!

April 19, 1995?

Terrorist attack!

Oklahoma City? 168 dead!

Is it starting to come back to you now?

[pgsmith]

Oklahoma City? 168 dead!

Is it starting to come back to you now?
But that was in Oklahoma, no wonder I forgot. :D

Actually, in all seriousness I had forgotten that it occured on April 19th. So, if it makes such a difference to you, why didn't you start a thread remembering the date? Didn't think about it? Then why are you whining about it now?

Besides, it had nothing to do with the United Nations, so why do you care?

I notice you've still not been able to come up with anything intelligent to add to the dialogue. Sorry, I don't consider guessing games to be an intelligent contribution. Keep working on it though, you'll be able to pull out an entire thought eventually. :)

[Shinsengumi77]

Being a philosophy major, I'm very happy to see discussion on morality and value, but I think some people are getting a little too heated up by it all. The point of discussion is to expose your own views to others while also considering theirs. Comparing them should hold the purpose of becoming more open-minded and better informed.

Yes, terrible things have happened throughout history, and terrible things happen as you read this now. We shouldn't forget any of it, but dwelling on it too long can hinder us in various ways.

Honestly, questions of value or morality are completely subjective when dealing with specifics, so at some point we should all just agree to disagree.

There's no reason to bring up events in history others might not have heard of, or to accuse them of being insensitive, or whatever. Just let things go.

[pgsmith]

Honestly, questions of value or morality are completely subjective when dealing with specifics, so at some point we should all just agree to disagree.
I absolutely agree about the subjectivity. However, I quite enjoy philosophical debates such as this one, and so tend to beat them until they stop moving completely. :)

[Paikea]

Honestly, questions of value or morality are completely subjective...I'll see your Heidegger, and raise you one Categorical Imperative. Call.

Meanwhile, yeah, we're not going to move anywhere on the rest of this in this forum. Be sad for what has happened, do good because it's the right thing to do.

[hl1978]

It should not have taken you that long to figure that out. It's what our entire political system is based upon. :)


I was a lot more naive at age 23. :)

[Shinsengumi77]

I'll see your Heidegger, and raise you one Categorical Imperative. Call.

Meanwhile, yeah, we're not going to move anywhere on the rest of this in this forum. Be sad for what has happened, do good because it's the right thing to do.

I'll see your Categorical Imperitive, and raise you one Deontological Conception of Justification. Call. :rambo:

[Shinsengumi77]

Sorry, that really doesn't have anything to do with morality/ value. I was just being stupid. :)

And sorry for the double post.

[Paikea]

I'll see your Categorical Imperitive, and raise you one Deontological Conception of Justification. Call. :rambo:Alston? Very interesting reference in that he died last Sunday. Far too much German and Catholic in my background to accept relativism in any of it's forms though.

Which is why, the philosophical arts ended up not being my bag. That, and I saw "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" (did you bullsh*t today?)

And with that, this thread is done, yes?

[Shinsengumi77]

And with that, this thread is done, yes?

Sad to hear that he died. :surprise:

And yes, I agree the thread is finished.

[hl1978]

And with that, this thread is done, yes?

No one has railed against security theatre, Iraq and Afghanistan, loss of civil liberties, people harassed about taking photos, government databases, presenting ID everywhere, increased numbers of background checks, increased government debt etc yet.

[Kendoka_Han]

This is a copy of an editorial written by Cornel Nistorescu in a local Romanian newspaper, Evenimentul zilei, on September 24th 2001. I thought it said a lot about American spirit. We may bicker and whine, we may be fat and obnoxious, but we do tend to stand together when it's needed.

I hope I don't sound ignorant when I say this...

"...but we do tend to stand together when it's needed."

but what about the many OTHER afflictions the USA alone faces, and subdues in an on ITSELF, which produces far more deaths than 9/11 could ever imagine.

This is on an everyday bases by the way, since the 1960's.

[pgsmith]

but what about the many OTHER afflictions the USA alone faces, and subdues in an on ITSELF, which produces far more deaths than 9/11 could ever imagine.

This is on an everyday bases by the way, since the 1960's.
I'm sorry, but that made even less sense than your posts usually do. Can you offer us a translation into English?

[Kendoka_Han]

I'm sorry, but that made even less sense than your posts usually do. Can you offer us a translation into English?

Since 1960's, Sexually Transmitted Diseases Gonorrhea: Ages 15–16, Up 226%

Since 1960's, Scholastic Aptitude Test Scores: Decline in Student Achievement

Since 1960's, Violent Crime Offenses: Up 995%

Since 1960's, Unwed Birth Rates up 325%, Pregnancies to Girls 10–14 Up 553% (abortion adds to the percentage)

Since 1960's, Divorce Rates: Up 115%

Since 1960's, Unmarried Couples: Up 536%

Why, you're leading founding father should be more proficient if I wasn't clear enough...

“And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality may be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds... reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” from “Farewell Address” —George Washington

“Give me your four year olds, and in a generation I will build a socialist state."
—Vladimir Lenin

“The world has cancer, and the cancer is man.”
—A. Gregg, Mankind at the Turning Point

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” Founding father and educator
—Noah Webster

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.“
—John Adams

“What constitutes the standard of good morals? Is it not Christianity? There certainly is none other. Say that cannot be appealed to, and I don’t know what would be good morals. The day of moral virtue in which we live would, in an instant, if that standard were abolished, lapse into the dark and murky night of Pagan immorality.”
— Supreme Court of South Carolina, 1846

:rolleyes:

[ghostdancer]

hey han whats ya point !!
say it out loud man
spit it out

[Shinsengumi77]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” Founding father and educator
—Noah Webster

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.“
—John Adams

“What constitutes the standard of good morals? Is it not Christianity? There certainly is none other. Say that cannot be appealed to, and I don’t know what would be good morals. The day of moral virtue in which we live would, in an instant, if that standard were abolished, lapse into the dark and murky night of Pagan immorality.”
— Supreme Court of South Carolina, 1846

:rolleyes:

Yo. I'm not religious, and have nothing against those that are, but putting stuff out here like this is insensitive and ignorant. You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person.

I've met many Christians who have not been very good people (don't get me wrong, most of them are very good people), but I've met just as many people who are Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Agnostic and Atheist who are equally good people (and of course there are some that are better and some that are worse, as is to be expected).

In any case, the original point of this thread has been lost. Yes, mourn the dead and the unfortunate, but don't keep bringing up the past and criticizing people who have forgotten about it or haven't heard of some past events.

Disease and war and famine and murder, and a plethora of horrible things happen EVERY DAY. There's not much we can do about it, and yeah it's sad. If we had to pay homage to all those people who have died/been killed/are dying/being killed, it'd take so much of our time that we wouldn't be able to do much else.

Is it possible to just say "Yeah, 9/11 was horrible, and so were countless other things in history. People suck and do bad things sometimes, but oh well, People are also doing good, too" and end this?

[Paikea]

Since 1960's, Sexually Transmitted Diseases Gonorrhea: Ages 15–16, Up 226%...and other endless, nonsensical noiseI >really< don't like you. I >really< don't want to read anything you have to write. I >really< wish you'd find some other sandbox to crap in.

Hammer time for this thread?

[Big One]

Hammer time for this thread?


Ah, come on, we've just getting warm up.
and beside, you don't have to chime in if you don't like.

However, I have to admit that Han Solo spoiled the mood.

[Kendoka_Han]

Just because I provided a hint of "Christianity", the bombardment is astonishing. pgsmith has no problem with this?


I absolutely agree about the subjectivity. However, I quite enjoy philosophical debates such as this one, and so tend to beat them until they stop moving completely. :)


hey han whats ya point !!
say it out loud man
spit it out

Wait for it ;)


Yo. I'm not religious, and have nothing against those that are, but putting stuff out here like this is insensitive and ignorant. You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person.

That was not my point, though obviously anyone here can assume it was intended to show, "non-christians = sinners", which is a false judgement.


I've met many Christians who have not been very good people (don't get me wrong, most of them are very good people), but I've met just as many people who are Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Agnostic and Atheist who are equally good people (and of course there are some that are better and some that are worse, as is to be expected).

Correct! Matthew 7? ;)


In any case, the original point of this thread has been lost.

Nope, nor did I (if it was my first post to supposedly start the apocalypse for everyone) intend to, because another user, "Moose" had equally the same thoughts as I did when reading countless patriotic articles of 9/11 and its 'remembrance'. First consider MANY OTHER things much more worse that has happened in America.

This includes US Congress's attitude in the late 1960's.


Yes, mourn the dead and the unfortunate, but don't keep bringing up the past and criticizing people who have forgotten about it or haven't heard of some past events.

200 years from now, we MUST forget about 9/11? 200 years from now, "right wing" Americans MUST 'forget about the radical Islamic terrorists and their actions'?

Doubt it mate. It would be wise to provide the [current] situation of USA, towards a proportional comparison of past historical facts...in which something HAS happened FOR future consequences and currently today, its much more worse than blatant economic towers falling down in 2001.

Don't instantly think that I am easily forgetting the lives lost! Its unfortunate for the many thousands that died, sure...but go back to Moose's point...


While this was a truly horrific event what about remembering the 16,000 or so people that are murdered in the USA every year?


Disease and war and famine and murder, and a plethora of horrible things happen EVERY DAY.

I hope you include Abortion? I hope you include the Media's [mindset] towards the youth of USA today, (Music in the night clubs, Movies of endless wickedness, etc). I hope you include the indoctrinated education system and its 'evolutionary' theory of, "You are just an animal!". America has far worse things to try and fix, of itself...then comes 9/11 and despite it being very unfortunate...the so called, "We stand together!" outcry, FIXES everything else as well? It seems the cancerous mentality of the youth on the streets were all saints after 9/11!


Is it possible to just say "Yeah, 9/11 was horrible, and so were countless other things in history. People suck and do bad things sometimes, but oh well, People are also doing good, too" and end this?

Then say the same about 9/11 and say, "Oh, it was just radicals having fun, we don't need to remember 9/11 at all now. Lets just forget it."?


However, I have to admit that Han Solo spoiled the mood.

-ve

Its interesting, pgsmith's own words foreshadowed what I was trying to say earlier...


...but because so many lives were stolen. Now that IS a tragedy.

Sooo, what about all those abortion cases? Obama sure is providing "a slaughter among the people".

What about the increase in suicide cases?

What is DRIVING THIS MOTIVE FOR TODAY...is what I am trying to ask. Don't say its not of you're own selves!


How easy people forget!

[pgsmith]

Dear Hand Solo,
I was once a young and idealistic idiot, much like yourself. However, I was never rude or arrogant enough to attempt to force my views upon random groups of people with whom I have nothing in common. It would be very much like me going to a traditional Tora study group forum and spouting off about the Japanese sword arts.

In other words, your drivel is unwanted, inappropriate, and seriously irritating. Go find yourself a life, and then discuss it with those that are a part of your life. We are not, nor do we want to be!

[Shinsengumi77]

I agree with pgsmith.

Han, I think you're assuming waaaay too much from what I said. Yes, I jumped to conclusions in the non-Christians = sinners thing. My bad. (Can you blame me? The quoted passages basically said that evil happens when people stray from the teachings of the bible...my assumption came from that, go figure.)

Another thing; abortion is a highly controversial issue, and it's completely irrelevant to a thread on remembering 9/11. Don't bring it up.

Last, I never said to FORGET the past. I said that dwelling on it too much is a hindrance. As I was getting at, how difficult would it be to remember every horrible event from history (hence plethora, which means "a multitude" -various insurrections, massacres, plagues, famines, atrocities of wars, aftermath of natural phenomena, assassination...the list goes on forever) from every country. It would never end. Ever.

I think creating this thread was fine. I don't mind the memorial services/ events in honor of those that died on 9/11. It's just seeing people attack each other with poorly constructed arguments and bring up random other bad things that gets me.

[ender84567]

Since 1960's, Sexually Transmitted Diseases Gonorrhea: Ages 15–16, Up 226%
:rolleyes:


nothing wrong with getting a burner... nothing a little antibiotics can clean up... or crabs for that matter... i mean come on they just walk on the beach. They get near you, just hit em with the shampoo. What you gotta watch out for is the herp, but that problem can easily be solved by just sleeping with virgins when you're young and they are still plentiful, ah to be a teenager again.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry, wasn't watching this thread. Night, night, everybody.