Should Kendo evolve?

[David J]

As an extension to previous debates (whats on your zekken etc), how do you all feel about ANY evolution of Kendo.

Which of the above (you can click more than one) would you feel happy about? Are there any developments you consider healthy, or are you a purist?

Very interested to see what you all think

<rei>

Dave

[wabbit]

Well,

I'm pretty much a newbie, but I'm quite happy with Kendo the way it is.

I think some of Dave's suggestions are pretty much cosmetic (Hakama Color, Bogu color etc) and as such, I've already seen a variation in Do colors. I think any significant changes, such as stripes/spots/huge great sponsorship logos, may prove to be visually distracting to people.

I'm suffering from Lousy footwork at the moment, and didn't train at the last session our dojo had, but did go and watch. I realised that I'm of the opinion that Kendo can look fantastic on its own, and doesn't need visual 'enhancement'. Let the kendo speak for itself.

As far as etiquette goes, I'm not sure there's really any 'non-essential' etiquette. I like bowing into and out of the dojo, and the mokuso (spelling?) and the rei. It makes a nice demarcation point between my crappy real life, and my training, and it's a good point at which I can metaphorically hang my life up along side my trousers, and get on with trying to improve my Kendo without worrying about work/money/state of the world/whatever. Generally a level of politeness/awareness of others is essential, particularly when it gets crowded.

Electric targets? How's that going to work? There's generally a noise to make it obvious when you've hit someone, and as far as the other point scoring techniques go (fumikomi, Zanshin, Kiai etc) they are largely subjective. I can't see the Zanshin-o-meter replacing a couple of real life human beings in the near future.

Kendo strikes me as pretty well evolved already. By all means let it evolve, but make sure it's for good reasons, eg safety/health, not simply to improve it cosmetically.

[KENSHIN]

To tell you the truth I like to think of myself as a purist, and I am even willing to go further to say that i disagree with the use of armour, and before people jump down my throat i do know why armour is necessay, however I feel that armour really takes away elements of true swordmanship skill. I just wish there was a material that was ultra strong yet light enough for people to not feel the damage they would sustain...I guess we just have to wait for the Nano- Revolution to take place, only then would it be possable to make stuff like that.

[alexpollijr]

These subjects have been discussed to exhaustion recently.

[Ian Russell]

Originally posted by KENSHIN
however I feel that armour really takes away elements of true swordmanship skill.???

What do you define as true swordmanship skill? I'm making the assumption you mean to train in as realistic a manner as possible so as to develop the same mind and skill set as that of the sengoku jidai samurai?

If that is the case, throw away your shinai, procure yourself a shinken, build a time machine and zap yourself back and enlist in Takeda's army. In my opinion, after excluding the socio-political environment, the biggest difference between modern kendo and true (as you put it) kenjutsu would be the lack of 1) shinken and 2) death. I'd be pretty worried about facing shinken even in bogu but much less worried about facing shinai without. That is, if we're talking about fear of injury...

kendo is not true swordmanship!

/flogshorsewithbokuto
/zipsupflamesuit

Cheers,

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by Ian Russell
???

What do you define as true swordmanship skill? I'm making the assumption you mean to train in as realistic a manner as possible so as to develop the same mind and skill set as that of the sengoku jidai samurai?

If that is the case, throw away your shinai, procure yourself a shinken, build a time machine and zap yourself back and enlist in Takeda's army. In my opinion, after excluding the socio-political environment, the biggest difference between modern kendo and true (as you put it) kenjutsu would be the lack of 1) shinken and 2) death. I'd be pretty worried about facing shinken even in bogu but much less worried about facing shinai without. That is, if we're talking about fear of injury...

kendo is not true swordmanship!

/flogshorsewithbokuto
/zipsupflamesuit

Cheers,

Maybe swordmanhip was the wrong word to use, but I feel that armour really slows down a lot of the attacks a person can make, forgive me afterall i am a cockroach in kendo...but i just feel that without armour I would feel more free than constricted, thats all.

[alexpollijr]

Have you ever worn kendogu?


Once you get used to it, you can be extremely fast.
My kendogu is like my second skin after all this time.

[Ian Russell]

Gokiburi-san ~ Just be thankful we don't use the Oyoroi from the Heian period, a 60 lb do would certainly leave me slower than a lethargic tortoise during kirikaeshi http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Have you ever worn kendogu?


Once you get used to it, you can be extremely fast.
My kendogu is like my second skin after all this time.

But i am pretty sure you would be even faster without it.:D

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by Ian Russell
Gokiburi-san ~ Just be thankful we don't use the Oyoroi from the Heian period, a 60 lb do would certainly leave me slower than a lethargic tortoise during kirikaeshi http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

I guess I can't complain... :D

[kendokamax]

BOGU IS PART OF KENDO!
If you want to do sword fight without armor it exist already that game with these sponge sword. (looks fun too)

One of the reason I love kendo so much is the sound of kendo. Nothing more beautifull than a good men or kote uchi with the clean sound of the snap.

Try to listen to video tape of kendo without sound....It's just isn't the same anymore.

I feel Kendo is really nice the way it is. But it already evolved a lot and will continue to do so. 40-50 (not sure how long) years ago I heard kendo was very static, no one was jumping, it was more a close combat. There is some people in my area that have a kendo similar to that. And I really don't enjoy it as much.

...

I often watch video of kendo at home, my father likes to watch it sometimes also ( he understand nothing at all of kendo). He really likes Miyazaki for some reason. He also loves to see the way kenshi enter the fighting court (bowing, sonkyo), when he told me that i couldn't beleive he could see beauty in these movements. I think sonkyo is beautifull and my father thinks that too. soooooo because of these 2 serious reasons it would be a crime to elimate sonkyo.

....

yo...these subjets we went over and over. lol

hey samurai freaks..try to think a little about how discusting it is to get cut by a katana.

[lewis]

The only change I would really like to see is in the technology. I love the way it is taught and think the seriousness, tradition and depth really set it apart from most other martial ways.

There are several reasons why I would like to see it change its technology:

- repeated blows to the head of the strength and power normal in kendo is a just plain bad idea. Some people won't have any problems while other could be seriously and permanently impaired. (one of my japanese 3 dan friend says that 'punch drunk old kendoka' is such a cliche in japan that many parents won't let their kids do kendo) However, it is also the best way to learn.

- The monetary cost of bogu, shinai, hakama, etc. forces many to leave or avoid kendo.

- Lastly, bamboo shinais are still pretty dangerous as some of the threads in this forum have pointed out. This risk, small as it is, could be easily avoided by updating a practice weapon system that was invented in Musashi's time.

[KhawMengLee]

Tactically, wouldn't it be a disadvantage to have colourfull bogu. You are only highlighting the target areas.

In Ninjitsu they wear those hand covers(I don't know the name but you will see Japanese farmers wearing them as well). They help hide your fists so your opponent cant see where your strikes come from.

Notice how all the finalists don't wear colourful Do's n' stuff...then again it could just be a coincidence. What do the senior kendoka think?

Incidentally, I was looking at the Do cut made in the match with Kuranari vs. Nakano. If you watch it in slow motion you can see the Do flying to the other side...god, the power in their hits. (Note: I am talking about the TV broadcast.)

Meng

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by kendokamax
BOGU IS PART OF KENDO!
If you want to do sword fight without armor it exist already that game with these sponge sword. (looks fun too)

One of the reason I love kendo so much is the sound of kendo. Nothing more beautifull than a good men or kote uchi with the clean sound of the snap.




I concede, I will not set up a petition to get rid of bogu...I wish I never suggested it...:D

[mingshi]

Reasons I don't like bogu:-

Men
>Men-gane is heavy. Maybe in 50 years ago before they start to have light-weight metal it's even more heavier. Now they have the luxurious Titanium Men, but how many of us can really afford it?
>The design of the Men blocks my vision. The bars, for vision, you can get used to it; but not for other things. Say, you want to pick your nose, or simply drink something in the middle of a practice... Another thing is that the Men limits your vision to, at most, 160 degrees. Which means when ever you're in a small dojo or a crowded one, you're likely to crash into your fellow Kendoka.
>Men Himo is pretty troublesome. We've talked about the problem for people wearing glasses. Also on receiving a couple of cuts, or some occational pushes to your head, even you've tied it really tight before, it'll be loose again. The fold can no longer reduces the force of impact, and you'll suffer from brain damage if you're taking on beginners without re-tying it. Also, if you sightly turn your head, it flies around and goes on your shoulders...
>A couple of missed Tsuki cuts will make your neck go red for 12+ hours (depends on the power, of course).
>Tenegui is a nuisance if it falls off (if you tie it wrong it's your problem)

Kote
>Since the fold is not as significant as the one on the Men, the Kote does not give enough protection. Many of you had already suggest to use a spongy wrist guard... Why don't they have it when it's sold?
>It stinks!

Do
>I do like the sound when it's hit, but when it's not..."Ouch!"
>When you do warm-up with it, it jumps up and down.
>Every time after practice my shoulders, and particularly the bony areas will turn red. The Do-Himo rubs too much.

Tare
>This is quite okay, as it helps breathing.
>But.... it contains no target. It's pretty expensive for a piece of protective equipment. (I'm not saying that we've to create a target on it!!)

In principle, there shouldn't be a problem because everyone is wearing the (more or less) same thing that bother our movement. It's a matter of time for people to get used to it. But if it's causing trouble for everybody... why shouldn't evolve? Some 300 years ago, as you see in that KW article on "The History of Bogu", Kendoka wrap themselves in stripes of bamboo. What we are having now is the product of evolution. Should we, smart brainy human beings, be making comfortable armours, or should we "keep the traditions and fit ourselves in them"?

P.S. Speaking of true swordsmanship...... I came across that set of Shogun-style armour in the Japanese department of the art museum lately.... Would anyone be interested in trying those?? Just figth like this:
http://www5.big.or.jp/~jinmink/ikusaya/kengaku/budouhajime2000/30.JPG :eek:

[stakenaka]

To see kendo be reduced to Sport Chambara... that would be a very sad day.

However, there is no relation between normal head blows and brain damage. We assume this from what we see from boxers, however, their slurred speech is due to something else, not brain damage. For the most part boxers enjoy a normal life after their career.

[kendokamax]

boxing?

small difference with kendo no?
in boxing you try to K.O. your oponnent!
in kendo shouldn't do that.

By the way I agree on some point that equipement in kendo is not so protective and some should part should be changed and improve. but you know....it's martial art, not playing ping pong. Kendo is already one of the safest martial art. So getting some bruises is part of the "fun"...(not that getting bruises is actually fun!)

[stakenaka]

Just rebutting a point that Lewis made about head blows. Head injuries are not a significant factor in kendo, unless you fall backwards and hit the back of your head against the floor.
I fully agree that the men blow should not even reach the point of KOing you. Again, I was illustrating the point that head injuries is something we shouldn't worry about, and we won't be eating through a straw in 35 years.

About Oyoroi, it is not condusive to fencing. The Oyoroi was developed for the mounted archer, not for fencing since the battlefield was dominated by the mounted archer rather than the footsolder at that time. It was also heavy (as Ian pointed out, 25-30 kg), and the weight was placed on the shoulders, not the waist like later armor designs. Also, the kuwagata and shikoro would get into the way of swinging for men. The later armors (domaru, haramaki, etc...), corrected for some of these flaws and changes in warfare.
However, the bogu was developed to simulate the human body rather than a armored body. No one would go for shomen on a Kabuto. If we wanted to go for kenjutsu targets, we would be hitting the knees, ankles, wrists, waist, armpits, elbows, hamstrings, achilles tendon, and thumbs (being that these targets were areas were not heavily armored). If these points were legal, keiko would be an extremely hazardous activity.

[lewis]

However, there is no relation between normal head blows and brain damage.

Scott, the next time you see your local neurosurgeon, ask him if he agrees with that statement. But make sure you don't try to describe a kendo practice as being in any way 'normal'. I know exactly what my father (a neurosurgeon, in fact) thinks, and it does not bear repeating in public. Suffice it to say that he would disagree with your assessment.

[Achilles]

I'm with the Brazilian (for once). This topic has been done to death.

[kendokamax]

my head hurts

[Kuri]

Originally posted by mingshi
[B]Reasons I don't like bogu:-
Men
Another thing is that the Men limits your vision to, at most, 160 degrees. Which means when ever you're in a small dojo or a crowded one, you're likely to crash into your fellow Kendoka.

Yes, your vision is limited, but that should only serve to highten your other senses. You should be aware of the location of fixed objects without the need to look at them (that goes without saying). You can also hear the people around you from their voice right down to the sound of their feet moving, and any other interaction they have with their opponent.

You can even use your 6th sense to feel those around you.

This is a good method of teaching you to have a total awareness of your environment (me thinks :D )

[Aoi]

Hello, this is my first time writing in this forum.
The evolution of kendo is a topic everybody goes through when they first start, and we still sometimes have talks about this at our own dojo.
According to our sensei, kendo has already evolved enough as it is, and is full of the "japanese heart" as he says it. There is a reason to every single movement in kendo, and a reason to every single string and thread in the bogu and the keikogi. He often tells us to see and understand all this before we ask the question of "a change".
Personally, I believe this is true, and if talking of kendo evolution, there are many forms of these already. Iaido, "kenjutsu" (I don't agree with how people call this as kendo/iaido/etc all categorise as a type of kenjutsu) and chambara, etc.
It may not be a bad idea trying all these other martial arts to find what you may like, or to reinforce the value of your own kendo.
(Chambara was fun!! but yes, doesn't have the depth of kendo^^;)

[David J]

Originally posted by Achilles
I'm with the Brazilian (for once). This topic has been done to death.

Yep, to a degree (though I could ask why you're both reading the thread if you're not interested....? :D )

I think the bogu discussion is valid though - the first time I wore Kote and received a strike to it, I was quite surprised that it hurt. I wasnt about to quit Kendo as a result, and its rarely that painful, but my thinking was that its protective gear, therefore it protects....

I dont want to see us lose the style of bogu, with its vague link to samurai armour, but I'm sure it could do its job better, as Mingshi says...

<rei>

Dave

[JSchmidt]

David. there's a huge difference between wearing worn out, floppy club armor and what you will most likely get when you get your own armor..it's like night and day.
Sure, a whole session of just kote-waza can be felt through any armor, but they don't happen that often :).

Jakob

[Justy]

I could see perhaps minor changes in bogu materials. Maybe. Bogu materials have already evolved... most people I see use plastic do because a bamboo do costs so much more, and someone's already mentioned titanium gamen. I wish kote were a bit lighter, but that's about the only other change I'd make. I mean, what other changes need to be made?

But then, there have been "evolutions" that I don't agree with. Part of getting myself ready for kendo involves tying the himo on my hakama. When I tie my hakama, that's when I start to get serious. No more joking around with my friends, forget about how crappy my work day was, it's time for kendo.

I can't imagine getting the same feeling by plastering a strip of Velcro across my gut. Slap-slap-go. Kendo's over? RRRRRRRRIP. No, that's just not right!

Or maybe it's just me.

I feel that there is no non-essential ettiquette (sonkyo included; sensei's sensei once said, "you're practicing to kill a man, how dare you do that without respect!"), zekken are fine as they are (a zekken is a name tag, what more do you want, bumper stickers? taunts? Starbucks logo?) , and the idea of using electric targets just seems silly.

[David J]

Just wanted to point out that I am not personally advocating any of the changes I listed, they are things that have been mentioned in other threads. I'm in the "keep it as it is" camp, though I have nothing against the development of new waza - if that is in fact possible...

<rei>

Dave

[kendokamax]

sure new waza are possible.

[Kendoka]

Kendo as you know it has evolved and will cotinue to.

But not trivial stuff like even more do colours than the many that already exist ! I hope.

The use of different technologies to make equipment is inevitable as the past has shown.

New wazas may be developed, but research in that area is fairly comprehensive.

Phew - too late. Goodnight.

Richard

[mingshi]

To Kuri:

Yes, your vision is limited, but that should only serve to highten your other senses.
Great! I'm not a Jedi!
My theory of "Limited Vision" not only apply to jikeiko, but also when Sensei is speaking at the other end of the dojo. If it isn't of the bulky design of Bogu, I don't think you've to twist your whole body to see your Sensei's, "Now, you shouldn't cut Men like this...*bang*".

To Aoi:

According to our sensei, kendo has already evolved enough as it is, and is full of the "japanese heart" as he says it.
I suppose other Sensei like Takahashi Danjozaemon of Jikishinkage-ryu in the 18th Century would have said the same thing.
BTW, here we're used to call Modern Kendo as Kendo, and Koryu Kenjutsu as Kenjutsu, to avoid confusion.

To Justy:

When I tie my hakama, that's when I start to get serious. No more joking around with my friends, forget about how crappy my work day was, it's time for kendo.
A-re? I thought you've to "start to get serious" when you pick up your bogu-bag at home/from your locker?

To Kendoka:

New wazas may be developed, but research in that area is fairly comprehensive.
Yes. You may call Hiki-waza a new waza already. It does not exist in Koryu Kenjutsu.

[Kendoka]

Re: mortally wounded........... not me, kenshin!

No thanks to Kenshin for starting the rubbish that got the over 40s thread closed.

Richard

[lewis]

As I've said in similar prior threads, I wouldn't change anything that might change the essence of kendo. But I don't think that changes to bogu technology necessarily has to do that. (And I am tired of coming home looking like I crashed hard in a mountain bike race because of the beginner students.)

However, nobody has said it yet, so I'll say it. If kendo becomes an olympic sport, hold on to your zekken. I have seen it happen in my other sports (rock climbing and mountain biking). Things are going to change fast as it 'sportifies' around the world and even the ZNKR isn't going to be able to stop it. It will be very sad.

[KATSUJIN]

i think that the present design of bogu can be considered pretty good...and also using technology to supposedly improve it into more lightweight or more colourful or such things....well honestly....i think not a good idea.....it might give a wrong impression that kendo is more of a sport.......than a martial art.....so technology should not be used too much...

as for new waza..i think more should be brought in because from my personal experience( which is not much since i have only trained for 3 and 1/2 years) there are many ways of cutting the other person....it only depends on the opponent and situation......so the waza we learn now may not be usable in those situations....so maybe new waza maybe required....

[jfluh9]

Well,

I'm pretty much a newbie, but I'm quite happy with Kendo the way it is.

I think some of Dave's suggestions are pretty much cosmetic (Hakama Color, Bogu color etc) and as such, I've already seen a variation in Do colors. I think any significant changes, such as stripes/spots/huge great sponsorship logos, may prove to be visually distracting to people.

I'm suffering from Lousy footwork at the moment, and didn't train at the last session our dojo had, but did go and watch. I realised that I'm of the opinion that Kendo can look fantastic on its own, and doesn't need visual 'enhancement'. Let the kendo speak for itself.

As far as etiquette goes, I'm not sure there's really any 'non-essential' etiquette. I like bowing into and out of the dojo, and the mokuso (spelling?) and the rei. It makes a nice demarcation point between my crappy real life, and my training, and it's a good point at which I can metaphorically hang my life up along side my trousers, and get on with trying to improve my Kendo without worrying about work/money/state of the world/whatever. Generally a level of politeness/awareness of others is essential, particularly when it gets crowded.

Electric targets? How's that going to work? There's generally a noise to make it obvious when you've hit someone, and as far as the other point scoring techniques go (fumikomi, Zanshin, Kiai etc) they are largely subjective. I can't see the Zanshin-o-meter replacing a couple of real life human beings in the near future.

Kendo strikes me as pretty well evolved already. By all means let it evolve, but make sure it's for good reasons, eg safety/health, not simply to improve it cosmetically.

Great post for a newbie! You just gotta love the "Zanshin-o-meter"

Keep it up...I'm a newbie too.

[elfboy]

I do realize that this is an old topic but I was wondering, in some anime and some pictures of Japanese life I've seen a white gi and a red hakama used in martial arts or something like that - but I see thatthe white gi and red hakama combination is (to what I see) exclusive to women. Can anybody tell me in what martial arts/traditions/situations this white gi/red hakama combination is used in? thanks.

[nodachi]

The only time I saw white gi and colored hakama worn were by the women working at shrines/temples, particularly during festival time when I saw them, but I don't know if this is a usual thing.

[samurai999]

My 0.02(US) for all it is worth.

I voted for bogu technology. Why? All the stuff incorporated right now is great! As an engineer that loves tech stuff something like titanium mengane and fiberglass dou are great ideas! I agree that going overboard is out of the question, but if there is some compromise between technology and tradition in Kendo, I'm all for it!! Unfortunately, there usually is no compromise in the end, only one thing or another.

The titanium mengane isn't light at all. In fact, I heard that it weighs the same as a regular duralumin mengane. But, IBB put the CG of the mengane back towards the spine so that it feels lighter.

The Fiberglass dou is cheaper compared to a more traditional bamboo dou and is very durable. A lot of people would not be able to afford this martial art/sport if fiberglass were not used. In the past bamboo was abundant, but now how much does a bamboo do go for? 2000 at least? No way I'm paying that much for a dou!

The Hasegawa men is very untraditional in terms of looks (huge polycarb lens), but it is MUCH safer for young kids when they play. You'd hate to see somebody's kendo experience ruined by a bamboo sliver in their eye.

As for the waza, I'm all for new waza. The waza that we use right now was invented by someone great in the past, so I go about it like this. Why not invent new ones and improvise? We all go about learning and polishing our basics all the time. But whenever I have free time I like to go out and experiment a lot. It makes you feel less restricted in a way and gives you a lot of insight into new ideas and thinking.

Tradition must be in there to give kendo some base/foundation. The foundation is very strong already. I believe that you can add stuff on as long as it doesn't break the foundation.

I wrote this pretty quickly so my thoughts are all over the place but i hope that i sent out the message i wanted to send.

Tim

[dorkusxmaximus]

I'm for any new changes that makes Men strikes less painful ^_^.

[JSchmidt]

"The titanium mengane isn't light at all. In fact, I heard that it weighs the same as a regular duralumin mengane. But, IBB put the CG of the mengane back towards the spine so that it feels lighter. "

I believe that titanium also absorbs the hits better than duralumin (which I presume contains aluminium). I know this is certainly the case with bicycles.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

My 0.02(US) for all it is worth.

The titanium mengane isn't light at all. In fact, I heard that it weighs the same as a regular duralumin mengane. But, IBB put the CG of the mengane back towards the spine so that it feels lighter.
Titanium mengane are actually about a 1/3 heavier. IBB are quite expensive, most people's titanium mengane are not IBB.

The Fiberglass dou is cheaper compared to a more traditional bamboo dou and is very durable.
I agree they're cheap and durable. They don't protect as well though.

In the past bamboo was abundant, but now how much does a bamboo do go for? 2000 at least?
The cheapest one I can find on bogubag.com is $310.

You forgot to mention carbon fibre shinai - mine has been very convenient and a cost saving over the years. Too bad it plays like a noodle. You'd think with all the technology around Hasegawa could replicate the feel of a good bamboo shinai but they just can't seem to do it. I don't know anybody over 2 dan who likes how they feel.

[aru-ma]

[B]You forgot to mention carbon fibre shinai - mine has been very convenient and a cost saving over the years. Too bad it plays like a noodle. You'd think with all the technology around Hasegawa could replicate the feel of a good bamboo shinai but they just can't seem to do it. I don't know anybody over 2 dan who likes how they feel.

I just want to confirm something, I've heard that carbon shinais can cause some bone injury due to the higher vibration rate it has over a bamboo shinai. Is this true or just a myth? what I know for a fact is it doesn't feel as good as a bamboo shinai :) to me at least.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I just want to confirm something, I've heard that carbon shinais can cause some bone injury due to the higher vibration rate it has over a bamboo shinai. Is this true or just a myth? what I know for a fact is it doesn't feel as good as a bamboo shinai :) to me at least.
We have very few injuries in our club, certainly none we can trace to carbon/bamboo. I think overall they are safer as there is no danger of splinters.

[Goomba]

Well I'll throw my two cents in as well,

I voted for waza. Mainly for selfish reasons. I like to watch (and participate) in keiko and shiai. I love to see the matches where people try new and interesting things. It gives variety to kendo and keeps it from stagnating.

I would like to see some minor changes in the equipment like improving field of vision. But everyone has already talked about this and I will not wear one of the hasagawa men. I already have a windshield on my car, I don't need one on my men. So it looks like my only option is to go back to school and take Using the Force 101 and being psychic.

I think the main difference between the do's isn't the materials in the construction, but the construction and craftsmanship. Physically, there isn't a real big difference in the weight or stopping power between plastic, fibre, and bamboo. They all are solid enough to stop a strike from doing real damage to you and light enough to wear through a 2-3 hour pratice and keep fighting. I think the big different is price is due to the protection that comes from properly fitted bogu. When you have bogu that fits well, moves with you, and protects where it is supposed to, you fight better because you do not worry about getting hit (i.e. do cut to the ribs/armpit). When I went from a plastic do to a bamboo do, the difference was like night and day. It was very expensive but I feel it was well worth it.

[samurai999]

[B]The Fiberglass dou is cheaper compared to a more traditional bamboo dou and is very durable.
I agree they're cheap and durable. They don't protect as well though.

In the past bamboo was abundant, but now how much does a bamboo do go for? 2000 at least?
The cheapest one I can find on bogubag.com is $310.

You forgot to mention carbon fibre shinai - mine has been very convenient and a cost saving over the years. Too bad it plays like a noodle. You'd think with all the technology around Hasegawa could replicate the feel of a good bamboo shinai but they just can't seem to do it. I don't know anybody over 2 dan who likes how they feel.

300 bucks for a bamboo dou? wow! never thought i'd see soemthing like that.

How does a fiberglass dou protect less than a traditional bamboo dou? Is it that the construction of the bamboo dou absorbs the stirkes better? I know that sometimes, dou is hit so hard that i can feel my skin and muscle being pinched against my ribcage with a shock going through my whole chest.

Yup.. Totally forgot about the graphite shinai. The balance is very odd and I just don't feel right with it in my hands. But with 2-3 years of school coming up and my budget shrinking, I might invest in one for keiko. In terms of feel, bamboo is selected by feel. Hasegawa's shinai are selected by science so to me, it feels decent but not quite right..

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

300 bucks for a bamboo dou? wow! never thought i'd see soemthing like that.
They've never been as expensive as what you think. My original set was $CDN 800 including 43 take doh, mind you that was 18 years ago. bogubag's cheaper hand-stitched sets include 60 or 62 take doh for under $500, and in their most expensive set the doh is $1225 or something like that. Now if you want to add custom finishes like cherrywood or same then we're talking major moolah.


How does a fiberglass dou protect less than a traditional bamboo dou? Is it that the construction of the bamboo dou absorbs the stirkes better?
Better absorption mostly. One of the senior students in our class recently switched and he couldn't believe how much better it was.

Fit can also be an issue - especially for bigger people, it's hard to get the right size in fibreglass as they just come in stock sizes.

[swrdply400mrela]

I'm all for Do being made from carbon fiber. Not only the looks, but the weight as well.

Example
http://www.macqc.com/raceplates/newProducts.htm

[JSchmidt]

I'm all for Do being made from carbon fiber. Not only the looks, but the weight as well.

Example
http://www.macqc.com/raceplates/newProducts.htm

Heh, it would probably end up more expensive than a custom made bamboo do :)

Jakob

[frederico]

and thats just beautifull, i wish i had one of those.
anyways.. i agree that the bogu could get better, if it facilitates the training, since we are not using it as old times.. is not tradition .. is just a thing that can be done better with time.. /useless post