"closing distance" zanshin type after do

[Raffa]

Hello to everyone!
Some days ago i was discussing on do-zanshin with some dojomates, we usually execute it passing sideways the aite and regaining chudan.
But i remembered that once i hear Chiba sensei discussing of executining it closing distance (i usually do this type of zanshin after a kote cut).
The problem was that none of us rember the correct position of the shinai/hands/arms during it, nobody have any ideas/opinion?
(somehow i feel the position used for kote as not good....but maybe i am wrong..)

[skilled]

you mean releasing the left hand ?

[hugo]

I am a bit confused as to the question. I can't recall ever really seeing anyone intentionally staying in close after a regular "do." The only times that I've ever seen someone end up close after a "do" strike was on accident. Even when the left hand is removed during the follow-through, wouldn't you still maintain distance in case they retaliate?

On the other hand, some people like to close the distance going FORWARD after gyaku-do, so I suppose it's possible to perform some variation of that with standard "do" as well.

Anyone else?

[atgm]

I thought zanshin was defined as taking proper maai (when possible) and maintaining the center and correct state of mind...

[Hisham]

I am a bit confused as to the question. I can't recall ever really seeing anyone intentionally staying in close after a regular "do." The only times that I've ever seen someone end up close after a "do" strike was on accident. Even when the left hand is removed during the follow-through, wouldn't you still maintain distance in case they retaliate?


I agree, what i've been thought and it's still the case with my current sensei, there's of course kikentaichi, the sound of a solid do being hit and getting back to chudan .


On the other hand, some people like to close the distance going FORWARD after gyaku-do, so I suppose it's possible to perform some variation of that with standard "do" as well.
Anyone else?

The way i learned it (i'll have to review it with my new sensei though he's not a fan) when it comes to gyaku do, you'd have to be at a closer range to perform it than normal do uchi, so IMHO i don't think that you'd need to close the range after executing the cut to show zanshin.

[Halcyon]

The way i learned it (i'll have to review it with my new sensei though he's not a fan) when it comes to gyaku do, you'd have to be at a closer range to perform it than normal do uchi, so IMHO i don't think that you'd need to close the range after executing the cut to show zanshin.
It's a pretty common way to show zanshin after hidari-do (aka gyaku-do), as in the following clip, at about the 2:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKkHE_zfVaI

The other way is to strike hidari-do and then move backward (usually diagonally) quickly to get out of range of the opponent.

[Hisham]

It's a pretty common way to show zanshin after hidari-do (aka gyaku-do), as in the following clip, at about the 2:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKkHE_zfVaI

The other way is to strike hidari-do and then move backward (usually diagonally) quickly to get out of range of the opponent.

I see, thank you for the video. About the moving bakward way, is it the hidari do hiki waza or something else?

[Halcyon]

I see, thank you for the video. About the moving bakward way, is it the hidari do hiki waza or something else?
It's not a hiki waza because you're not starting from tsuba-zeriai. You're actually moving in, striking do and then moving back. Hidari-do is by its nature a "pull" cut, so one way to do it is to strike hidari-do and use that backward momentum to get out of range.

[Hisham]

I'll have to see it to fully grasp how it's done. Thanks for the explanation.

[Halcyon]

I'll have to see it to fully grasp how it's done. Thanks for the explanation.
Here's s clip that kinda shows it, except this one is hiki-hidari-do. But you get the idea. Around the 1:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR4hKDHIX5w&feature=related

[Raffa]

Well, maybe this is the occasion to discuss some general theory on zanshin.
From my little nidan point of view, generally speaking we have two main cases:
Case A - After the attack your movement and that of the aite are such that there is no collision. So you can pass through.
Case B - After the attack your movement and that of the aite are such that both of you are on the same path and there is a collision. So you cannot going through and the distance between you and your aite is closing.

And let's discuss the general ways to express zanshin, i think that they can be summarized in the following:
1- Express fullness of spirit.
2- Express control over the aite putting him in a condition where he cannot cut you while mantaining a straight posture.
3-Regaining kamae after action.

In case A,point 1 is obtained with kiai, points 2 and 3 are fullfilled passing the aite and turning while regaining toma maai (where he cannot hit you, so you are controlling this aspect) and assuming chudan no kamae again, ready for the next action.

In case B i think that obviously all the three points are harder to express (this is why motodachi let always pass beginners during training i think), but not impossible.
The kiai, point 1, had to be very strong as somehow you must demonstrate that you had win even if you are face to face.
Closing distance works for point 2, as at short distance the aite cannot effectively cut you. I see that some sensei say that if motodachi dosn't move you must "crush" in him. What mean crush in this case? let's take a men cut as example, after hitting men you go toward the aite with the arms still straigh. If he doesn't move and you don't change nothing you will hit him in the men-gane with a punch. Although not wrong (surely you had gone straight!) is my opinion that this don't express true control, as you hit him without absolute necessity. Personally i will lift a little my hands, slightly touching the upper part of his men while doing a big kiai almost face to face, and so stopping before crushing in a literally sense. "Bouncing" and hitting hiki waza ara an alternative dimostration of control. If i cut kote i will close distance mantaining the hands at the hara level with the kensen pointed upward. For the do i don't know exactly in which position is better to put arms&shinai.....(from here the question)
I think that two example of "closing distance" zanshin are the kodachi kata 2 and 3.
Point 3 in case B is fullfilled simply going in tsuba zeriai, ready for another action.

Very personal points of view, please don't esitate to correct me if you feel something wrong in what i wrote...

[Bokushingu]

Here's s clip that kinda shows it, except this one is hiki-hidari-do. But you get the idea. Around the 1:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR4hKDHIX5w&feature=related

At the 2 min mark there is another Gyaku DO scored where the zanshin/Followthrough is crashing into the oppose.

I'm still confused. does have anything to do with bringing the shinai through? I noticed on both the videos they brought their shinai through even though they crashed into theri oppose.

[Hisham]

Here's s clip that kinda shows it, except this one is hiki-hidari-do. But you get the idea. Around the 1:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR4hKDHIX5w&feature=related

It's clearer, thanks again.

[Raffa]

Something (vaguely) related at http://www.kendo-guide.com/:
http://www.kendo-guide.com/shall-we-always-go-through-the-opponent-after-strike.html

[Raffa]

I've found some interesting video on this argument....by chance they all regard Musashikai nito, very beautyfull do in my opinion:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=it&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://musashikai.jp/content01/page04_01002.html&prev=hp&rurl=translate.google.it&usg=ALkJrhhGNW4Cp_pMvQjNpMmpVKeHHhQatQ

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=it&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://musashikai.jp/content01/page04_01005.html&prev=hp&rurl=translate.google.it&usg=ALkJrhik6sks2WJpw5QTSVvn-K8u04ojMQ

http://translate.google.it/translate?prev=hp&hl=it&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmusashikai.jp%2Fcontent01%2Fpage04_ 01001.html&sl=ja&tl=en

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=it&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://musashikai.jp/content01/page04_01007.html&prev=hp&rurl=translate.google.it&usg=ALkJrhhvfFVdluY02mS2FhQ-3J_AQc26Zg