How to deal with "dirty players"?

[Raindrop]

I'm posting this in the women's forum cause I think maybe women have a different approach to this, however any input from guys is greatly appreciated as well!

ok, so I'm having trouble dealing with people who, by my own definition "play dirty". By that I mean, people who hurt or even injure you in shiai on purpose so they get an advantage.

In my short time in kendo I have come across several individuals who make no secret of that being their "tactics" and eventhough my pain threshold has gotten pretty high through kendo it's starting to really get to me.

As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening), I've been hit on the upper legs many times (??!) and even on my upper arm. I'm not talking about beginner's mistakes or the occasional misplaced strike. All the people in question have done kendo for many years and you can tell that in kakarigeiko for example every strike is placed perfectly so it's not like they don't know what they're doing. When confronted I was even told that the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.

I know people like that will always exist and I'll just have to deal with that and try to just do my own kendo. My main issue isn't the pain actually, I can take a lot. My big problem is that I get angry. I get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo. My footwork get's sloppy, my tenouchi dissapears and my mind is totally unfocused. I try to be all zen-like and not let it get to me, but it's really starting to become a problem. I hate injustice, and in my mind they're not doing "proper kendo" (feel free to discuss this as well, maybe I can learn a bit more about why those individuals do their kendo in this way)

I know I'm still a noob when it comes to kendo so maybe over the years it'll go away by itself and it's easier to deal with, but in the meantime, does anyone, women in particular, have advice for me about how to deal with situations like that?

I don't want to avoid shiai with these people, I love all shiai, I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.

[skilled]

if those people do DO on you to hurt you , do DO KAESHI MEN to score agaisnt them , etc etc .

You have to make proper Kendo stand over anything else . =)

[ahmed61086]

While that situation is a pretty nasty one. I realy dont see how someone, who is trying to hurt his/her opponenet, could defeat someone who is only trying to score a point. Because as they are trying to do something dirty, they are not focused on a real scoring attack or real defensive tactic, so they should, theoreticaly be at a big disadvantage. Their logic is all messed up.

[Raindrop]

While that situation is a pretty nasty one. I realy dont see how someone, who is trying to hurt his/her opponenet, could defeat someone who is only trying to score a point. Because as they are trying to do something dirty, they are not focused on a real scoring attack or real defensive tactic, so they should, theoreticaly be at a big disadvantage. Their logic is all messed up.

Maybe you're right, but if the skill level is so very different (mine being low :tongue: ) they still have enough time to "harai-waza" into my thigh and go for men while I haven't even moved my right foot yet. :dead:

I also get quite a few random hits on my thumb joints which, after repeated hitting, hurts so much I can't hold the shinai properly so I have less control. (btw, my nice leather tsuba dome is also totally mangled :mad: )

Yes, I think this "tactic" won't work on anyone who is their own level cause they're basically wasting time striking to hurt instead to score.

You know, I also get mad at myself for the fact I can't handle people like that. I wish I was fast enough to strike them before they even start all that hanky-panky, but I'm working on that. It's not happening from one day to the next, though so I'm still stuck with this problem of not being able to let go.

I want to go all "Blade Braver" on their asses, "For Justice"! ^_^ But whereas normally in shiai/shiai-geiko I've more and more found this peace of mind that helps you feel your kendo better, in these kind of matches, I just can't seem to let go :3

[ScottUK]

As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening)I have blocked many a good and accurate do strike with my elbow (just instinctive to move my arms down when a do cut is en-route) but that doesn't mean you're as stupid as me.

Tragically my advice probably won't sit well amongst the serious budoka of KW.

If this happened to me and I was unhapy about it (and to be honest, I enjoy the rougher elements of kendo as I am padded enough to take it), I would try and maintain good kendo in the dojo (or on the shiaijo, whatever) but have a subtle word afterwards - and if no joy then pin them up the changing room wall by their throat.

I don't handle bullies well. Let's see how they like it.

[bobdonny]

lots of tsuki!

[JasonC]

If it's intentional then it's pretty poor behaviour IMO. If it gets too serious, my suggestion would be to (politely) decline to practice with them when they come up in the jigeiko rotation. If necessary, a quiet word with sensei/sempai afterwards giving your reasons.

[ArcticBlizzard]

Maybe you're right, but if the skill level is so very different (mine being low :tongue: ) they still have enough time to "harai-waza" into my thigh and go for men while I haven't even moved my right foot yet. :dead:

I also get quite a few random hits on my thumb joints which, after repeated hitting, hurts so much I can't hold the shinai properly so I have less control. (btw, my nice leather tsuba dome is also totally mangled :mad: )

Yes, I think this "tactic" won't work on anyone who is their own level cause they're basically wasting time striking to hurt instead to score.

You know, I also get mad at myself for the fact I can't handle people like that. I wish I was fast enough to strike them before they even start all that hanky-panky, but I'm working on that. It's not happening from one day to the next, though so I'm still stuck with this problem of not being able to let go.

I want to go all "Blade Braver" on their asses, "For Justice"! ^_^ But whereas normally in shiai/shiai-geiko I've more and more found this peace of mind that helps you feel your kendo better, in these kind of matches, I just can't seem to let go :3

Just go all out, MiyaMiya style :wink:

Just thinking out loud, if there level is really that much higher then yours, why would they need to resort to those kind of tricks/tactics? They would probably score anyway.
Also I often get weird or difficult techniques tried on me, because I'm a great practice target, I'm like a sitting duck out there (they have plenty of time to execute a technique). So maybe this could also be a reason of their inaccuracy.

[rfoxmich]

She's talking about shiai not keiko I think. The tactic is used by people who otherwise are not able to score and decide to intimidate the opponent into submission. Me I come from a family with roots in show business. If it was really really bad I might prime the shinpan to be aware of it by falling to the floor and writhing in pain.. oh wait, that might not involve acting.

Intentional strikes that are not in correct and valid targets, when repeated can and should earn hansoku. The problem as shinpan is always gauging intent...especially at the lower levels of competition where control and accuracy may just be lacking.



We had a guy like that in our dojo that did that for jigeiko. After a strike he'd go into tsuba zeria with a knee up carefully placed to ram us males in the gonads. I solved that problem within a single jigeiko with him. Every time he came in I choked up on my shinai with my left and careully placed it so that his thigh would run into it when he executed his 'tokui waza' [specialty technique]. After a couple of times ramming his thigh into my tsuka gashira, he stopped doing this. This is not a tactic I'd recommend for shiai. But in the dojo, under the right circumstances, pain can be a great motivator for learning.

[Raindrop]

Just go all out, MiyaMiya style :wink:BLACK! :jaguar: lol xD


Just thinking out loud, if there level is really that much higher then yours, why would they need to resort to those kind of tricks/tactics? They would probably score anyway.

yep, that's what I'm wondering, but in the end it's really about me and how I deal with that. And you know ultimately the dojo situation can be solved, but in a national taikai I will still meet people like that in the shiaijo so I still want to know how to handle this.

I know I still lack lots of experience when it comes to shiai (I think I've been in national 3 taikai altogether) but maybe someone has some tips on how to approach this on a mental level. Btw my female sempai feel the exact same way about this as me. We talk about it a lot and just end up getting collectively angry, so that's basically why I'm now asking on KW.

[Pizzamancer]

I had a loser do that in shiai once. He went straight for my bicep. I was in chudan and there was no opening whatsoever. Hurt like hell. The next time he did men, I stepped aside, let him follow through, and hit him with tai atari as hard as I could knocking him out of bounds.

the guy was wearing one of those cheap raw hide rimmed mens (that no one outside of a high school gym class should be wearing), and testing for his 3day. He should have known better.

One thing I can see though is that you are not holding your shinai correctly if your thumbs are getting hit regularly. It is a common problem, even up through shodan kendo-ka. Have someone (sensei/senpai) take a look at the way you hold your shinai, and try to improve your grip. I say that is probably the root of sore thumbs because you mentioned your tsuba was all beat up. That only comes from bad form.

And that is not just the grip either. Have them evaluate the whole swing, from chudan all the way through suburi. It is much harder to explain in writing, but many people have likened it to wringing out a towel. Holding it lightly then a snapping/gripping motion like you are wringing water out of it, ending with your thumbs pointing toward the floor.

[atgm]

I just try to do my own kendo as correctly as possible. It sounds stupid, but it's all I can really do, especially at my level.

The kids often unintentionally repeatedly hit me on the arms/elbow in shiai-geiko because they're trying to find/make openings where there really aren't any. I don't get mad and I don't go nuts on them, I just keep doing my own kendo. I think that that's something the shinpan will recognize and appreciate. It won't make you feel much better physically, but... yeah.

The other thing is, if it's actual shiai and you continue doing correct kendo while they hit your elbows/arms, then that would help increase the contrast and hopefully the shinpan would call them on it.

[dwez]

If their plan is


the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.

And you


get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo.

Then you're doing exactly what they want and as you've confronted them with it they now know it's having an effect on you. Cultivating that 'zen-like' state is clearly you're best option. I'd also get an elbow pad, that's the target that can become the most annoying. Slaps to the leg and arm can be shrugged off but a crack right on the elbow can really break the concentration.

Good luck with it, I think you already know how to rise above this form of dirty play, just keeping working at it.


the guy was wearing one of those cheap raw hide rimmed mens (that no one outside of a high school gym class should be wearing.

HEY! Cheap shot. Some of us have no option but to practice with what we've got. It may not be pretty, mine may not even fit correctly but it allows me to take part [although my body doesn't at the moment, so diss that all you want].

[MiddleEarthNet]

I'm posting this in the women's forum cause I think maybe women have a different approach to this, however any input from guys is greatly appreciated as well!

ok, so I'm having trouble dealing with people who, by my own definition "play dirty". By that I mean, people who hurt or even injure you in shiai on purpose so they get an advantage.

In my short time in kendo I have come across several individuals who make no secret of that being their "tactics" and eventhough my pain threshold has gotten pretty high through kendo it's starting to really get to me.

As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening), I've been hit on the upper legs many times (??!) and even on my upper arm. I'm not talking about beginner's mistakes or the occasional misplaced strike. All the people in question have done kendo for many years and you can tell that in kakarigeiko for example every strike is placed perfectly so it's not like they don't know what they're doing. When confronted I was even told that the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.

I know people like that will always exist and I'll just have to deal with that and try to just do my own kendo. My main issue isn't the pain actually, I can take a lot. My big problem is that I get angry. I get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo. My footwork get's sloppy, my tenouchi dissapears and my mind is totally unfocused. I try to be all zen-like and not let it get to me, but it's really starting to become a problem. I hate injustice, and in my mind they're not doing "proper kendo" (feel free to discuss this as well, maybe I can learn a bit more about why those individuals do their kendo in this way)

I know I'm still a noob when it comes to kendo so maybe over the years it'll go away by itself and it's easier to deal with, but in the meantime, does anyone, women in particular, have advice for me about how to deal with situations like that?

I don't want to avoid shiai with these people, I love all shiai, I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.

I haven't got time to read all the posts (lunch break at work) so apploges if this is already mentioned or unsporting.
In my other sports nd martial arts, I've had similar tatics used against me. Fencing was a classic - being hit hard to collar bone, inside of elbow, soft area near the hip and knee in that order by the same few people each time. It is horrible and I regard the individuals doing it as bullies. To me it also means, that they don't trust their own techniques to score in their own right and don't want to loose to a beginner, so they try to make themselves look good.

Personally, I found a few well placed hard hits back soon sorted the problem. I'll let you decide where to hit. Once they get the idea, never hit them like again (unless they restart at some future date).

[ReKru]

... I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.

*plonk* huh? *plonk*plonk*
http://www.titus.de/binary,325965,.jpg

There's others around - need to find a pair that fits well and doesn't hinder your Kendo.

(funny enough it's usually the worst elbow-do hitters who wear that stuff themselves)

[Toecutter]

I'm curious as to why someone with a much higher skill level would try using those tactics when they could most likely just go straight in? Anyway I'm with Scott, if someone is going to use unsavory tactics then its gloves off, a good tsuki might make them think twice.

[ScottUK]

Gloves off indeed (but outside the dojo) - no point in looking as big an arse as them in front of shimpan.

[Budo Angel]

from my experience, and at the time an English 7 dan Kendo teacher... dirty, assuming (and apologies if its not) its girl to guy ??

Don't use this too often, if someone is piling in to you, on top of you - what ever... being the women, you are normally the 'shorter' player...drop your kissaki/kensen...and basically point your shinai into their nuts...ie. point at their tare level, this is not gedan, its not chudan.

The feeling guys have, is if they pile in and start whacking about, their nuts get it first, and that is an uneasy feeling :hurt:

They will soon stop, men will preserve their jewels over an above belting you about :sleeping:

Ask decent guy Kendo players/your friends, and they will confirm, its a hell of an uneasy feeling having a shinai pointing at your nuts...after a while if they haven't impaled themselves, they soon get the message.

Other tricks, buy the smaller size roller blade, elbow pads (some have plastic) they fit neatly under your kendo gi and don't restrict movement, I always wore one for keiko & shiai, on my right elbow...don't wear the soft ones, they're too cumbersome and restrict your arm free movement.

If this doesn't help, knock the player sideways as he attempts to follow though with a men cut. The energy of him going forwards, means he doesn't regain balance quickly enough being hit sideways.

And lastly my final trick...put in some resistance, and then take it away, they fall over on their own. All the above, are not fowls or hansoku, if done correctly and discretely :smiley: he looks like a big bully, and you keep your dignity ! Best of all, keep mates with the girls in the locker room, you'll soon suss who people think are the animals, and what their tactics are for dealing with morons.... really though, I hope you meet decent Kendo players, they outnumber the idiots (in my experience)...

[ender84567]

This advice doesn't apply to girls likely, but i'm a big guy (250lbs and every bit other than my hara is muscle) and I often have people that try to wrestle with me in tsuba zeriai, people that I outweigh by a factor of 2 often. I give them the 'are you sure you want to play this way' look then I wait for them to push forward, spin off to the side (they were relying on me to push back for balance). The usually fly forward, and i've even had one fella go down straight on his face. I've never had to teach someone the error of their ways more than once. Also for pushers you can just turn and let them push you sideways, if you just keep rotating on your left foot they will literally push you in circles tiring themselves out.

If they are hitting non targets (like elbows) they will have to give up the center to do so, while not everyone of any level can do so, take advantage of the suki.

[Orophil]

from my experience, and at the time an English 7 dan Kendo teacher... dirty, assuming (and apologies if its not) its girl to guy ??

Don't use this too often, if someone is piling in to you, on top of you - what ever... being the women, you are normally the 'shorter' player...drop your kissaki/kensen...and basically point your shinai into their nuts...ie. point at their tare level, this is not gedan, its not chudan.

The feeling guys have, is if they pile in and start whacking about, their nuts get it first, and that is an uneasy feeling :hurt:

They will soon stop, men will preserve their jewels over an above belting you about :sleeping:

Ask decent guy Kendo players/your friends, and they will confirm, its a hell of an uneasy feeling having a shinai pointing at your nuts...after a while if they haven't impaled themselves, they soon get the message.



like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMbTHgnXudI

[Neil Gendzwill]

If these guys are your dojo-mates, and they are truly much more experienced than you, than this tactic is even more reprehensible. You should raise this concern privately with your sensei.

[b8amack]

I would recommend against retaliating. That's a can of worms I am ashamed to say I have opened up in the past, and nothing good ever comes of it. Kendo works above all on a foundation of trust. If they ARE deliberately breaking that (elbow and other off target hits are unfortunately a fact of kendo; the elbow hit by someone going for a do strike to me sounds like you're possibly misinterpreting some things) then you need to wake those shimpan the fuck up. I personally get more pissed about this in jigeiko than in shiai; I'm HAPPY when I receive a sloppy hit in shiai... it means I'm still in the fight!

[Karaken]

BLACK! :jaguar: lol xD



yep, that's what I'm wondering, but in the end it's really about me and how I deal with that. And you know ultimately the dojo situation can be solved, but in a national taikai I will still meet people like that in the shiaijo so I still want to know how to handle this.

I know I still lack lots of experience when it comes to shiai (I think I've been in national 3 taikai altogether) but maybe someone has some tips on how to approach this on a mental level. Btw my female sempai feel the exact same way about this as me. We talk about it a lot and just end up getting collectively angry, so that's basically why I'm now asking on KW. To me, mental aspect of training is more important part of kendo than the technique part. You should treat this as such. In shiai, if I feel any bullying going on, I try to be more flexible all over my body than usual. My specialty with forceful Tai-Atari is Hiki Men when he's concentrating on pushing me away.Anyway, the best medicine against bully is Ippon. Don't worry about getting hit ( It's MA afterall not dancing ) and concentrate on scoring. Once you have successfully done this, you'd not only Not get mad but start looking for bullies to score on.

[Toecutter]

I would recommend against retaliating. That's a can of worms I am ashamed to say I have opened up in the past, and nothing good ever comes of it. Kendo works above all on a foundation of trust.
I would agree with you but there are some times its necessary, I guess its up to you to decide when that is and it's not something I would ever treat lightly but there have been times it was necessary and after it was done and said the other person for what ever reason never did it again. Sometimes it's necessary to take them out of there comfort zone as much as they're doing it to you, while most of my experience is during jigeiko I've had some people try it in shiai as well but much less so, but if it's a higher level person doing it to a lower lever person then you really have to wonder what's going on and in that situation I would 100% agree not to retaliate, just ippon shobu, lower your head and sonkyo, if it is a recurring problem then as stated above I would take it up with your sensei.

[Halcyon]

Anyway, the best medicine against bully is Ippon.
So true. Great advice.

[Raindrop]

Thanks for all the replies guys!! I'm feeling a lot better about that situation now. I don't think I want to retalliate. That would be the easy way out xD And I don't actually want to hurt anyone. Maybe I should really just train harder, and become faster so that I'm simply much harder to bully around. And yes. As Karaken said, ippon. Will work on that. Haven't had too many of those jumping from my hands yet but I'm getting there! :D

Thanks for the advice with the elbow pads, will definately get one! I bruise rather easy so sometimes it looks like I have two elbow-bones sticking out, but one is just a giant bruise-bump.

Oh and btw, it's not my thumbnail that gets hit but my thumb joint, at the place where it meets the wrist. I have pretty bad RSI so any hit there is hell for me.

Anyhoo, read a lot here to contemplate on and talk to my dojo mates about as well! :)

[turboyoshi]

If these guys are your dojo-mates, and they are truly much more experienced than you, than this tactic is even more reprehensible. You should raise this concern privately with your sensei.

I'd second this motion. I am reminded of a saying that goes something like "to tolerate a small offense, is to invite a larger one."

Certainly it is admirable for you to be doing your best to improve yourself as a person and kendoka, but I think you should consider what kind of things you won't allow.

[MartialArtsGirl]

Are you really sure it's on purpose?

Anyway, this is an interesting thread.

[JSchmidt]

All the bullies I've encountered all stopped their crap once I started hitting them...until then, it can be a tricky issue to deal with.
One solution is simply, as advised in other threads, just to say 'ippon onegaishimasu', open up for the men and then say thank you very much and walk away (bow first).
Or, more confrontational, once they start their crap, is just to sonkyo, bow and walk away.

You can try to tough it out, but if the size/strength/ability gap is too big, then that is also kinda tricky.

The key is to not lose your temper and start retaliating. It's just playing into their hands, because they are most likely much better at that game.

[skilled]

All the bullies I've encountered all stopped their crap once I started hitting them...until then, it can be a tricky issue to deal with.
One solution is simply, as advised in other threads, just to say 'ippon onegaishimasu', open up for the men and then say thank you very much and walk away (bow first).
Or, more confrontational, once they start their crap, is just to sonkyo, bow and walk away.

You can try to tough it out, but if the size/strength/ability gap is too big, then that is also kinda tricky.

The key is to not lose your temper and start retaliating. It's just playing into their hands, because they are most likely much better at that game.

The problem is that in shiai you can't do that

[hl1978]

I've seen people kicked out of the dojo (in various martial arts) for hurting people, but stuff like this is more a result of point fighting rules combined with ego.

order of escalation:

talk to the person
Talk to the instructor
refuse to practice with that person
take a more physical response
get the legal system involved

I have to say that I am a fan of "rough" kendo, but I only will do that with someone when it is consentual.

[Raindrop]

Are you really sure it's on purpose?

Anyway, this is an interesting thread.

Yep as I said in the first post, I was told to my face it's on purpose.

I will try to simply get better with my kendo. I'm not the kind of person to actually retalliate, it's just not what I do (I might want to, though lol, watched too much bamboo blade...) and since this is a thing that can apparently happen anywhere and with different people I just need to find a way to deal with it and not lose my kendo, especially in shiai situations.

With all these comments I feel I'm confident enough to make the right choices and well I now have extra motivation to do my 200 suburi each day ^_^.

[ScottUK]

I will try to simply get better with my kendo.Just remember that someone will need to do something or this pillock will carry on with this unacceptable behaviour.

It probably isn't just you taking this kind of battering.

[Karaken]

Just remember that someone will need to do something or this pillock will carry on with this unacceptable behaviour.

It probably isn't just you taking this kind of battering. If we all start scoring on them, they might chnage their mind.

[ghostdancer]

Sooner or later this prat will do it to the wrong person and get his arse handed to him on a plate......it will happen

[ScottUK]

Let us all pray to the Gods of Youtube.

Dear Omnipotent Ones,
Please ensure one of Your subjects is in the audience
When this inbred cracker gets his spleen eaten
By a powerhouse in the guise of a delicate flower
Who delivers in Your mercy
TSUKI MEN TAIATARI ME... oh where'd he go? Get up off the floor and come back into the shiaijo please
And it gets uploadeth onto Your mighty server
For us all to LMAO and ROFL at
For ever and ever

Amen.

[Agricola]

I'm posting this in the women's forum cause I think maybe women have a different approach to this, however any input from guys is greatly appreciated as well!

ok, so I'm having trouble dealing with people who, by my own definition "play dirty". By that I mean, people who hurt or even injure you in shiai on purpose so they get an advantage.

In my short time in kendo I have come across several individuals who make no secret of that being their "tactics" and eventhough my pain threshold has gotten pretty high through kendo it's starting to really get to me.

As an example, these kind of people will repeatedly hit your elbow (like going for do eventhough there's no opening), I've been hit on the upper legs many times (??!) and even on my upper arm. I'm not talking about beginner's mistakes or the occasional misplaced strike. All the people in question have done kendo for many years and you can tell that in kakarigeiko for example every strike is placed perfectly so it's not like they don't know what they're doing. When confronted I was even told that the whole purpose is to injure or hurt your opponent so they lose concentration.

I know people like that will always exist and I'll just have to deal with that and try to just do my own kendo. My main issue isn't the pain actually, I can take a lot. My big problem is that I get angry. I get really pissed off and that in return makes me totally lose control over my kendo. My footwork get's sloppy, my tenouchi dissapears and my mind is totally unfocused. I try to be all zen-like and not let it get to me, but it's really starting to become a problem. I hate injustice, and in my mind they're not doing "proper kendo" (feel free to discuss this as well, maybe I can learn a bit more about why those individuals do their kendo in this way)

I know I'm still a noob when it comes to kendo so maybe over the years it'll go away by itself and it's easier to deal with, but in the meantime, does anyone, women in particular, have advice for me about how to deal with situations like that?

I don't want to avoid shiai with these people, I love all shiai, I simply want to get to a point in my mind where I can be unaffected by what they're doing and just do my own kendo.

I am not a Kendoka/Kendoist (not sure on the correct word) but as a fencer and an avid student of Nietzsche I'd say the obvious,

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger"

but better

"Love your enemy as your friend"

You may ask why? But look at it this way, your enemy is what forces you to improve, what keeps you on your toes and motivates you to victory. Victory being the ability to impose your will upon others. I'm certain that Musashi or Tszu said something similar (has been along time since I read their works), but don't let your enemy anger or frustrate you as he is the one that forces you to improve. Thank your enemy for that and treat him with respect for he is far more valubale than 100 friends.

Be like this and your enemy will teach you well, otherwise you will complain to the instructor/Sensi and learn nothing. Remeber,

"I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage."

If it is your will to defeat this person it seems you must endure first and turn that to your advantage. Wether what this fellow is doing is legal or not use some of these philosophys and turn his behaviour to your advantage and ultimately your will must conquer his and never forget to thank him for he is your friend.

Sorry about the deep philosophy but it worked for me in boxing/muay thai and now fencing and hell this is a Kendo forum after all!

[ender84567]

I have another story to relate in terms of bullying. I was in line for Yamanaka Shigeki sensei one MWKF summer camp and there was a 'bully' that tried to pull some crap on him (bad move in general on any hachidan...) he basically took him all the way across the dojo (thru seme and tai atari) and lined him up with the door and 'boom' knocked the guy a good 20 feet out the door, he then ran back in side with his hand up looking for a new partner, so in this case justice was served, these types (if its shiai) often dont have anyone in their dojo that beats the penguin snot out of them for pulling this kind of bs, but you can take comfort in the fact that it A. hinders their kendo growth and B. hinders their learning opportunities because some sensei just wont practice with them.

[nykroth]

Hey Raindrop,

I see you're from Kendo Kai Suzuki. If you train on saturday, feel free to ask me about people and tactics if you want. I'd be happy to help if I can.

Daniel

[jjcruiser]

Wow. This is insane. I can't believe your sempai are trying to injure you on purpose. I'm grateful I don't practice with or compete against people like that. I'm sorry you do.

Anyway, if this happens enough specific times that you're positive it's on purpose, I think I would...


...raise this concern privately with your sensei.

[LarsCW]

I have practised at Kendo Kai and i have had always good experiances with them.

Sensei Odinot always taught us : "The best defence is offence"

When you are too busy defending yourself you aren't attacking and basicly allowing your oponent to win.

If they hit you on your elbow on purpouse you are far ahead of these people as a good kendoka doesn't have to use these tricks to score their points.

When they are busy trying to hit you on your legs or elbow you should have the time to place tsuki or men as they are all open for it.

Practise some more on your debana waza:-)

[MartialArtsGirl]

I will try to simply get better with my kendo. I'm not the kind of person to actually retalliate, it's just not what I do (I might want to, though lol, watched too much bamboo blade...)

Just learn how to do a killer tsuki! And FIGHT for JUSTICE! BLADE BRAVER!


:laugh:

[Raindrop]

It's not really such a big deal! I don't want to make it seem like I only come across bullies xD It's maybe one out of 100 or so people, you know. like 99% of the people I have met in shiai or jigeiko are super awesome and they would never do something like that anyways.

I just really want to be mentally strong against such an opponent, and reading all those comments really helped me. Furthermore, be it in the dojo or in taikai I'll just work on my waza to take advantage of those wasted seconds where someone will try to injure or hurt me on purpose. I prefer the approach of bettering myself and my kendo instead of making a big deal of it. ^_^;

I really was just looking for advice on how to mentally deal with this kind of anger you feel in situations like that, you know how to get your focus back and find "mushin". Now I kind of feel like I made a complain topic instead. That wasn't really what I was going for... ^_^;

So anyhoo, all the replies really helped me out and I'll bother my other sempai about dealing with it through technique and I'll be more zen next time I'll face an opponent like that :)

[hyuna]

I really was just looking for advice on how to mentally deal with this kind of anger you feel in situations like that, you know how to get your focus back and find "mushin"
I read a sport psychology book that suggested that it is helpful to give yourself a physical trigger that you use to settle down. Something like squeezing the hilt of your weapon, or tightening up some muscle, or something like that. What you do is to use your trigger when you put your mind in a good state, and eventually you get conditioned to associate the trigger and that mental state. So then when you use your trigger, your body and mind automatically go to the corresponding state. Then after losing a point or otherwise recognize that your mental state is going down the tubes, you evoke your trigger and try to come back to your good mental state. For our purposes, you might use your trigger during mokuso or in sonkyo, trying to come back to a centered feeling. This kind of thing has to be practiced diligently to work, but many pro athletes seem to use this kind of thing with good success. That might help you in the specific situation.

Assuming that there isn't a risk of serious injury, I think there is a deeper thing to work on. Being upset by my opponent's intention, means I already lost focus before that, because my mind has asked "They just hit my arm. Why did they do that?" That means that I was upset by getting hit in the first place -- I wouldn't be thinking about "why" unless my focus was first broken by being struck. But why should I be upset by being hit? That is a lesson to learn from. It doesn't matter if they missed the target on purpose, since there is no real difference to us between missing the target on purpose or missing by accident. If they were going for my kote and accidentally hit my elbow, it is my reaction that was faulty. If they just go for my elbow and they hit it, it is still my reaction that was faulty. In both cases it is a lesson to learn from, and I should be thankful to my opponent, not bitter, for teaching me. Does it matter if they are teaching me out of love or spite? I don't think so. Instead of asking "why" and then getting upset at the answer we get, we should simply consider what happened, learn from it, and then move on.

There is, of course, a difference to the person who is choosing to play dirty or not, but that is something for them to deal with. We can't take responsibility for the behavior of everyone else.

If, on the other hand, there is a risk of serious injury, then that has to be handled differently, for everyone's sake. People cannot be allowed to be dangerous. I would hope in shiai that the shimpan and coaches would be actively monitoring that kind of situation, though.

[Inner_Silence]

ok Im gonna give my two cents on something that happened yesterday (october the 34th) yesterday there was the anual internal tournament. every year there is this tournament remembering the anniversary of the foundation of the dojo. last year was my first time in participate and I got second place in dan division. this year I got nothig but bruises.

we were divided in groups of 3 people from wich only one passed to second round, so that means that you have to beat the two of them to get to second round. in my group I had the good luck that the other two guys were in my group national selected (both attended for the WKC in brazil, I didnt get in the national team even thou I got close).

so I won one match and I lost the other one. but damn! the guy that beated me, and I say literally beated me is a 1,95m tall almost 120kg of pure muscle humanoid beast that uses jodan no kamae (im 1,75, and weight about 73kilos but dont get me wrong, maybe Im not heavy but Im the muscular kind too). the guy is shodan and he got his shodan only a couple of months ago in WKC he has been in kendo lots of years but he didnt went to examinations. Ive been in nidan for more than a year now. so, tecnically Im higher grade, and been more time practicing than him, and at least in my dojo lower grades have to respect higher grades wether they like it or not.

well the thing is that right in the "hayime" word he inmediately went for men, I deflected it and as he passed by he hitted me with the fist in my mengane and then pushed me with his shoulder against the concrete wall. it was a direct hit and I really felt it becouse I recieved the hit in the wall with my shoulder in wich I have a injury that has taken me years to heal. at first I tought that it was my fault becouse I did get in the way of the train instead of moving to the sides so the first time it never even crossed my mind that it was bad intended. then as the shiai kept going I started to feel the hits in the elbow, the hits in the mengane, and he trowed me over the wall two more times wich in one I felt over sensei and in the second one I almost felt over a little kid that was one of the dojo girls son. so, I ended in the wall lots of times and the shiai had to be stopped lots of times becouse of it.

that made my blood to boil so much that I ended trusting my shinai under his men in to his neck. and the referees almost gave ME a hansoku for that and I didnt get it only becouse that Shioiri stopped it and they went to gogi and decided that (they told me later) maybe what I did was a hansoku, but in that case the other guy would have already lost becouse of hansoku and none of his dirty tricks where actually scored as hansoku. after that I got SO pissed off! I heard sensei shouting "move to the sides!!! mive to the sides!!!" and I know that is what I had to do but I simply didnt want to, at some point I really felt like "overwhelmed" I felt like even thou my kendo and my tecnique is WAY better that that guy I really didnt know what else to do and my only feeling was that I had to kill that asshole.

so I hardly held on the 3 minutes and when it ended my hands where shaking and I was so damn nervous, I ve never felt like that in kendo, I didnt felt like I was in a kendo tournament. I felt like I was being under agression and I had to defend myself by all mean like a caveman when they saw a tiger. and I felt exactly like that when I was flying in the air and being trowed against the wall.

after my beating I talked to sensei and first he gave me some tecnical advices, an then a "ok, Ill talk to him".

at the end, it was very obvious that he was agressive like that with me and he didnt get like that with anyone else, with everyone else he just had a normal shiai. I think that he and some other two in that dojo feel their place in the "power pyramid" threatened becouse, as you know Im from another dojo and Ive been in this bigger dojo only for about a year in a half now and I still use my older dojo name on the zekken (and I wont change it). I feel that Ive made a couple of friends in the dojo and both sensei holds me in good esteem, I also had good placed in a couple of tournaments local and nationals and all that stuff. and I feel like I had won my place with my new dojo mates. in the other hand, that small group and specially that big guy they are only respected becouse they are the "older" ones but not becouse people give a damn about them or becouse they think of them as "friends".

anyway, doesnt matter. only becouse the sempai hate me is not a reason not to go there, specially if the sensei hold me in good esteem.

[chainz]

lots of tsuki!
tsuki the guy eveytime!!
thats how i deal with those kind of guys

[skilled]

ok Im gonna give my two cents on something that happened yesterday (october the 34th) yesterday there was the anual internal tournament. every year there is this tournament remembering the anniversary of the foundation of the dojo. last year was my first time in participate and I got second place in dan division. this year I got nothig but bruises.

we were divided in groups of 3 people from wich only one passed to second round, so that means that you have to beat the two of them to get to second round. in my group I had the good luck that the other two guys were in my group national selected (both attended for the WKC in brazil, I didnt get in the national team even thou I got close).

so I won one match and I lost the other one. but damn! the guy that beated me, and I say literally beated me is a 1,95m tall almost 120kg of pure muscle humanoid beast that uses jodan no kamae (im 1,75, and weight about 73kilos but dont get me wrong, maybe Im not heavy but Im the muscular kind too). the guy is shodan and he got his shodan only a couple of months ago in WKC he has been in kendo lots of years but he didnt went to examinations. Ive been in nidan for more than a year now. so, tecnically Im higher grade, and been more time practicing than him, and at least in my dojo lower grades have to respect higher grades wether they like it or not.

well the thing is that right in the "hayime" word he inmediately went for men, I deflected it and as he passed by he hitted me with the fist in my mengane and then pushed me with his shoulder against the concrete wall. it was a direct hit and I really felt it becouse I recieved the hit in the wall with my shoulder in wich I have a injury that has taken me years to heal. at first I tought that it was my fault becouse I did get in the way of the train instead of moving to the sides so the first time it never even crossed my mind that it was bad intended. then as the shiai kept going I started to feel the hits in the elbow, the hits in the mengane, and he trowed me over the wall two more times wich in one I felt over sensei and in the second one I almost felt over a little kid that was one of the dojo girls son. so, I ended in the wall lots of times and the shiai had to be stopped lots of times becouse of it.

that made my blood to boil so much that I ended trusting my shinai under his men in to his neck. and the referees almost gave ME a hansoku for that and I didnt get it only becouse that Shioiri stopped it and they went to gogi and decided that (they told me later) maybe what I did was a hansoku, but in that case the other guy would have already lost becouse of hansoku and none of his dirty tricks where actually scored as hansoku. after that I got SO pissed off! I heard sensei shouting "move to the sides!!! mive to the sides!!!" and I know that is what I had to do but I simply didnt want to, at some point I really felt like "overwhelmed" I felt like even thou my kendo and my tecnique is WAY better that that guy I really didnt know what else to do and my only feeling was that I had to kill that asshole.

so I hardly held on the 3 minutes and when it ended my hands where shaking and I was so damn nervous, I ve never felt like that in kendo, I didnt felt like I was in a kendo tournament. I felt like I was being under agression and I had to defend myself by all mean like a caveman when they saw a tiger. and I felt exactly like that when I was flying in the air and being trowed against the wall.

after my beating I talked to sensei and first he gave me some tecnical advices, an then a "ok, Ill talk to him".

at the end, it was very obvious that he was agressive like that with me and he didnt get like that with anyone else, with everyone else he just had a normal shiai. I think that he and some other two in that dojo feel their place in the "power pyramid" threatened becouse, as you know Im from another dojo and Ive been in this bigger dojo only for about a year in a half now and I still use my older dojo name on the zekken (and I wont change it). I feel that Ive made a couple of friends in the dojo and both sensei holds me in good esteem, I also had good placed in a couple of tournaments local and nationals and all that stuff. and I feel like I had won my place with my new dojo mates. in the other hand, that small group and specially that big guy they are only respected becouse they are the "older" ones but not becouse people give a damn about them or becouse they think of them as "friends".

anyway, doesnt matter. only becouse the sempai hate me is not a reason not to go there, specially if the sensei hold me in good esteem.

How many bad hits ( do to the elbow , men to the ear , tsuki to the neck etc ) you have to receive in order for the opponent to get hansoku ? XD

[G-CHAN]

ok Im gonna give my two cents on something that happened yesterday (october the 34th) yesterday there was the anual internal tournament. every year there is this tournament remembering the anniversary of the foundation of the dojo. last year was my first time in participate and I got second place in dan division. this year I got nothig but bruises.

we were divided in groups of 3 people from wich only one passed to second round, so that means that you have to beat the two of them to get to second round. in my group I had the good luck that the other two guys were in my group national selected (both attended for the WKC in brazil, I didnt get in the national team even thou I got close).

so I won one match and I lost the other one. but damn! the guy that beated me, and I say literally beated me is a 1,95m tall almost 120kg of pure muscle humanoid beast that uses jodan no kamae (im 1,75, and weight about 73kilos but dont get me wrong, maybe Im not heavy but Im the muscular kind too). the guy is shodan and he got his shodan only a couple of months ago in WKC he has been in kendo lots of years but he didnt went to examinations. Ive been in nidan for more than a year now. so, tecnically Im higher grade, and been more time practicing than him, and at least in my dojo lower grades have to respect higher grades wether they like it or not.

well the thing is that right in the "hayime" word he inmediately went for men, I deflected it and as he passed by he hitted me with the fist in my mengane and then pushed me with his shoulder against the concrete wall. it was a direct hit and I really felt it becouse I recieved the hit in the wall with my shoulder in wich I have a injury that has taken me years to heal. at first I tought that it was my fault becouse I did get in the way of the train instead of moving to the sides so the first time it never even crossed my mind that it was bad intended. then as the shiai kept going I started to feel the hits in the elbow, the hits in the mengane, and he trowed me over the wall two more times wich in one I felt over sensei and in the second one I almost felt over a little kid that was one of the dojo girls son. so, I ended in the wall lots of times and the shiai had to be stopped lots of times becouse of it.

that made my blood to boil so much that I ended trusting my shinai under his men in to his neck. and the referees almost gave ME a hansoku for that and I didnt get it only becouse that Shioiri stopped it and they went to gogi and decided that (they told me later) maybe what I did was a hansoku, but in that case the other guy would have already lost becouse of hansoku and none of his dirty tricks where actually scored as hansoku. after that I got SO pissed off! I heard sensei shouting "move to the sides!!! mive to the sides!!!" and I know that is what I had to do but I simply didnt want to, at some point I really felt like "overwhelmed" I felt like even thou my kendo and my tecnique is WAY better that that guy I really didnt know what else to do and my only feeling was that I had to kill that asshole.

so I hardly held on the 3 minutes and when it ended my hands where shaking and I was so damn nervous, I ve never felt like that in kendo, I didnt felt like I was in a kendo tournament. I felt like I was being under agression and I had to defend myself by all mean like a caveman when they saw a tiger. and I felt exactly like that when I was flying in the air and being trowed against the wall.

after my beating I talked to sensei and first he gave me some tecnical advices, an then a "ok, Ill talk to him".

at the end, it was very obvious that he was agressive like that with me and he didnt get like that with anyone else, with everyone else he just had a normal shiai. I think that he and some other two in that dojo feel their place in the "power pyramid" threatened becouse, as you know Im from another dojo and Ive been in this bigger dojo only for about a year in a half now and I still use my older dojo name on the zekken (and I wont change it). I feel that Ive made a couple of friends in the dojo and both sensei holds me in good esteem, I also had good placed in a couple of tournaments local and nationals and all that stuff. and I feel like I had won my place with my new dojo mates. in the other hand, that small group and specially that big guy they are only respected becouse they are the "older" ones but not becouse people give a damn about them or becouse they think of them as "friends".

anyway, doesnt matter. only becouse the sempai hate me is not a reason not to go there, specially if the sensei hold me in good esteem.

I'm sorry about your experience. Inner silence, guys who fight like that
lack experience, technique, knowledge of wazas and they don't understand how to seme. The only thing they know how to do is attack attack attack and taiatari you to death.

You need to practice more oji wazas. The truth is, guys who attack randomly are easy to fight, because they do all the work for you.

Think about this..... the guys in jodan correct? There are several wazas you
can do...

1) dekote
2) men nuki doh
3) men kaeshi doh
4) men nuki men

There's no need for you to strike first. Let him come, guys like that are easy pickins. So ask sensei to practice oji waza more in kihon.

Good luck dude.

[Raindrop]

I read a sport psychology book that suggested that it is helpful to give yourself a physical trigger that you use to settle down. Something like squeezing the hilt of your weapon, or tightening up some muscle, or something like that. What you do is to use your trigger when you put your mind in a good state, and eventually you get conditioned to associate the trigger and that mental state. So then when you use your trigger, your body and mind automatically go to the corresponding state. Then after losing a point or otherwise recognize that your mental state is going down the tubes, you evoke your trigger and try to come back to your good mental state. For our purposes, you might use your trigger during mokuso or in sonkyo, trying to come back to a centered feeling. This kind of thing has to be practiced diligently to work, but many pro athletes seem to use this kind of thing with good success. That might help you in the specific situation.

Assuming that there isn't a risk of serious injury, I think there is a deeper thing to work on. Being upset by my opponent's intention, means I already lost focus before that, because my mind has asked "They just hit my arm. Why did they do that?" That means that I was upset by getting hit in the first place -- I wouldn't be thinking about "why" unless my focus was first broken by being struck. But why should I be upset by being hit? That is a lesson to learn from. It doesn't matter if they missed the target on purpose, since there is no real difference to us between missing the target on purpose or missing by accident. If they were going for my kote and accidentally hit my elbow, it is my reaction that was faulty. If they just go for my elbow and they hit it, it is still my reaction that was faulty. In both cases it is a lesson to learn from, and I should be thankful to my opponent, not bitter, for teaching me. Does it matter if they are teaching me out of love or spite? I don't think so. Instead of asking "why" and then getting upset at the answer we get, we should simply consider what happened, learn from it, and then move on.

There is, of course, a difference to the person who is choosing to play dirty or not, but that is something for them to deal with. We can't take responsibility for the behavior of everyone else.


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

Yes, that's what I was looking for! I will definately look into that!

It's strange because usually when I do Kendo I forget everything else. Once I'm in kamae my usually scatter-brained self is totally focused. So I need to get back to that in situations where I "lose that control" because of random stuff someone else does.

I think focusing on proper kamae, even as little as making sure my back is all the way straight, might already help! Focusing on the shinai in my hands, being one with the sword... that seems like stuff that would really help me get my mental focus back. I will practice that as well as focus on some countering techniques (which we do learn in practice, I'm just not very good at using them in jigeiko/shiai yet).

Thanks again!

[b8amack]

ok Im gonna give my two cents on something that happened yesterday (october the 34th) yesterday there was the anual internal tournament. every year there is this tournament remembering the anniversary of the foundation of the dojo. last year was my first time in participate and I got second place in dan division. this year I got nothig but bruises.

we were divided in groups of 3 people from wich only one passed to second round, so that means that you have to beat the two of them to get to second round. in my group I had the good luck that the other two guys were in my group national selected (both attended for the WKC in brazil, I didnt get in the national team even thou I got close).

so I won one match and I lost the other one. but damn! the guy that beated me, and I say literally beated me is a 1,95m tall almost 120kg of pure muscle humanoid beast that uses jodan no kamae (im 1,75, and weight about 73kilos but dont get me wrong, maybe Im not heavy but Im the muscular kind too). the guy is shodan and he got his shodan only a couple of months ago in WKC he has been in kendo lots of years but he didnt went to examinations. Ive been in nidan for more than a year now. so, tecnically Im higher grade, and been more time practicing than him, and at least in my dojo lower grades have to respect higher grades wether they like it or not.

well the thing is that right in the "hayime" word he inmediately went for men, I deflected it and as he passed by he hitted me with the fist in my mengane and then pushed me with his shoulder against the concrete wall. it was a direct hit and I really felt it becouse I recieved the hit in the wall with my shoulder in wich I have a injury that has taken me years to heal. at first I tought that it was my fault becouse I did get in the way of the train instead of moving to the sides so the first time it never even crossed my mind that it was bad intended. then as the shiai kept going I started to feel the hits in the elbow, the hits in the mengane, and he trowed me over the wall two more times wich in one I felt over sensei and in the second one I almost felt over a little kid that was one of the dojo girls son. so, I ended in the wall lots of times and the shiai had to be stopped lots of times becouse of it.

that made my blood to boil so much that I ended trusting my shinai under his men in to his neck. and the referees almost gave ME a hansoku for that and I didnt get it only becouse that Shioiri stopped it and they went to gogi and decided that (they told me later) maybe what I did was a hansoku, but in that case the other guy would have already lost becouse of hansoku and none of his dirty tricks where actually scored as hansoku. after that I got SO pissed off! I heard sensei shouting "move to the sides!!! mive to the sides!!!" and I know that is what I had to do but I simply didnt want to, at some point I really felt like "overwhelmed" I felt like even thou my kendo and my tecnique is WAY better that that guy I really didnt know what else to do and my only feeling was that I had to kill that asshole.

so I hardly held on the 3 minutes and when it ended my hands where shaking and I was so damn nervous, I ve never felt like that in kendo, I didnt felt like I was in a kendo tournament. I felt like I was being under agression and I had to defend myself by all mean like a caveman when they saw a tiger. and I felt exactly like that when I was flying in the air and being trowed against the wall.

after my beating I talked to sensei and first he gave me some tecnical advices, an then a "ok, Ill talk to him".

at the end, it was very obvious that he was agressive like that with me and he didnt get like that with anyone else, with everyone else he just had a normal shiai. I think that he and some other two in that dojo feel their place in the "power pyramid" threatened becouse, as you know Im from another dojo and Ive been in this bigger dojo only for about a year in a half now and I still use my older dojo name on the zekken (and I wont change it). I feel that Ive made a couple of friends in the dojo and both sensei holds me in good esteem, I also had good placed in a couple of tournaments local and nationals and all that stuff. and I feel like I had won my place with my new dojo mates. in the other hand, that small group and specially that big guy they are only respected becouse they are the "older" ones but not becouse people give a damn about them or becouse they think of them as "friends".

anyway, doesnt matter. only becouse the sempai hate me is not a reason not to go there, specially if the sensei hold me in good esteem.

Am I reading this right, and you deliberately thrust your shinai under the tsuki-dare, because of tai-atari?

[Inner_Silence]

Am I reading this right, and you deliberately thrust your shinai under the tsuki-dare, because of tai-atari?

no. that was becouse I was getting trowed over a 4 years old kid. I know thats wrong but that was the only thing that crossed my mind instead of falling over that kid. it was obvious that the other guy couldnt care less about it triyng to make me fall off the shiaijo. besides I didnt "hit" him, it was more kind of a push.

[JSchmidt]

Sounds like you got physically overwhelmed and lost your composure. Unless you claim that he was deliberately trying to hit your elbows,etc and not actually going for a target, then he did nothing wrong.

As for the grade issue, it's a shiai and grades don't count. He most certainly does not have to show you more respect just because you're a higher grade.

[Inner_Silence]

well then I guess in taiatari being punched in the mengane with the lower part of the tsuka many times and aeverything else is just a coincidence.

[JSchmidt]

well then I guess in taiatari being punched in the mengane with the lower part of the tsuka many times and aeverything else is just a coincidence.

Was that a direct result of him following through or straight up punches?

[Martino]

that made my blood to boil so much that I ended trusting my shinai under his men in to his neck. and the referees almost gave ME a hansoku for that and I didnt get it only becouse that Shioiri stopped it and they went to gogi and decided that (they told me later) maybe what I did was a hansoku, but in that case the other guy would have already lost becouse of hansoku and none of his dirty tricks where actually scored as hansoku.

To me the shimpan consider they had lost control of the match. IE, they had not pulled up his rough play so you were left with few options.

I have noted when people play this rough they tend also to start close making it harder for you to scored good clean cuts. Compounded by the fact that in the back of you mind your trying to make sure your not in a position to get injured or bounced out.

My annoyance from this kind of thuggery is not that I get injured (I think my body is pretty resilient) but that is inhibits my ability t preform good clean kendo.

P.S. I am (was) no saint, I have some video footage where I have been less than kind t my opponents. Not my proudest moments, I am however still on good terms with them though.

[Inner_Silence]

Was that a direct result of him following through or straight up punches?

straight punches man!it was like: 1) attack 2)follow trough 3)taiatari 4) punch with the lower part of the tsuka (left hand). man Ive been in kendo long enough to differenciate between a hard hit and a bad intended hit maybe Im just nidan but Im not THAT newbie

[b8amack]

I also don't understand how you found yourself knocked into the wall from the shiai-jo. That sounds more like inadequate space/ poor layout than any fault of your opponent. It also sounds like you should have been penalized for being out of bounds, but weren't.

[Tort-Speed]

Shioiri Sensei was there? My impression is that he will stand up against bully-style Kendo. When he was still based in Japan, I found his advice calm and useful.

[Inner_Silence]

I also don't understand how you found yourself knocked into the wall from the shiai-jo. That sounds more like inadequate space/ poor layout than any fault of your opponent. It also sounds like you should have been penalized for being out of bounds, but weren't.

yeah it was a small space. about 7,5m from wall to wall (barely the minimum standard), and yes probably I should have get penalized, but since it was a thing only from between mates generally noone gets hurt and everyone plays fair so generally noone steps out of the bounds or when someone are too close to the wall the other player generally steps back a bit in order not to injure a friend. dont get me wrong anyway, many of the guys where selected for the WKC and stuff, myself I almost got in to the team and besides the dojo I also train in a high performance center for elite athletes. so the tournament is hard and the top guys are very strong and in shape and thats the way it should be, but I think that there is not relation between a hardcore match and intentionally trying to injure someone else. you can play hard but that doesnt excludes that you can also play fair.

I think that if someone generally end up with his partner injured somehow or if people generally complains about that person hitting too hard or whatever thats not becouse that person is strong, thats becouse that person have bad kendo and an awfull tecnique and also means that he is a selfish asshole.

do you get complains about your kendo??

[Inner_Silence]

Shioiri Sensei was there? My impression is that he will stand up against bully-style Kendo. When he was still based in Japan, I found his advice calm and useful.

yeah he hates that, in fact, about a month ago that same guy tackled Shioiri and send him to the ground. we are talking a 30 years old man about 1,95m tall and weighing about 120kg pushing a 1,60m weighing about 55kg and 67 years old senior. anyway, it seems that Im in a period of test somehow

[ScottUK]

about a month ago that same guy tackled Shioiri and send him to the groundWhy would anyone feel the urge to get uber-physical with a senior (both grade and age) teacher? I reckon I outweigh my boss by about 110lbs but I would never do this.

[b8amack]

yeah he hates that, in fact, about a month ago that same guy tackled Shioiri and send him to the ground. we are talking a 30 years old man about 1,95m tall and weighing about 120kg pushing a 1,60m weighing about 55kg and 67 years old senior.

That's just horribly out of line. I'm surprised that guy wasn't taken care of in the parking lot.

[skilled]

:chinese::chinese:With a steel mind , the mirror inside you reflects the opponent mind:chinese::chinese:

[ScottUK]

...but a steel shinai would get the point across quicker.

[Neil Gendzwill]

yeah it was a small space. about 7,5m from wall to wall (barely the minimum standard)The minimum size for a shiai-jo is 9 m per side, plus you need some space around for safety. 7.5 is very very small, we'd be calling jogai all day long in a space that size.

[JSchmidt]

The minimum size for a shiai-jo is 9 m per side, plus you need some space around for safety. 7.5 is very very small, we'd be calling jogai all day long in a space that size.

At the annual ABKF Winter seminar & goodwill taikai, the courts are very small and jogai is not called unless it's repeatedly abused to escape potentially compromising situations.

[mikeingeorgia]

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me to try to intentionally hurt someone you're practicing with. There aren't that many people around to practice with, so trying to injure 1 of the few people I could practice with sounds counter-productive and immature.

Just my .02

[ScottUK]

In this life, the two ways to get yourself noticed are to either do good things or make everyone else look bad. Some people think that humiliating others is a good thing.

[Budo Angel]

the two ways to get yourself noticed are to either do good things or make everyone else look bad. Some people think that humiliating others is a good thing
...sadly those low life morons are still in Budo - good news, is I think well pray/hope, the good spirited genuine Budo players out number the said morons who inflict misery for no good reason other than vindictiveness and to humiliate. Spend time bettering yourself & enjoying like minded Budo folk, don't waste energy on cunning revenge, its never sweet in Budo...morons will never throw themselves on their sword (metaphorically) but fate will find them in other ways...

(my dark thoughts in prep for Halloween)

[ScottUK]

Spend time bettering yourself, not wasted on cunning revenge, its never sweet in Budo...That may be true, but revenge tastes like raspberry ripple ice cream.

[Mihoshi]

I don't really think there's a quick-fix for this issue, and any suggestions would likely have to be for specific situations. GIVEN THAT, however, I have two things I'd like to leave here for passerbys -- if they haven't already been beaten to death over the course of five pages. :D

Personally, I believe the best thing to do in this situation is find a sempai (or if you are a sempai, perhaps a sensei) who is at a similar physical disadvantage (smaller build, shorter, etc.) -- if you can -- or at the very least, that detests so-called "dirty tactics" as much as you do. Ask them how they deal with these kinds of things when they crop-up in shiai. They may have a whole bag of tricks specifically for elbow-smashers, while managing a separate set just for the pushers. More than likely, if they've had more shiai experience than you, they'll know a thing or two about tackling things case-by-case.

The second is a story and (hopefully?) a lesson that I learned as a fairly short girl with the bad luck of fighting more than my fair share of 6 foot + male giants.

I had one really bad experience with excessive force during shiai when the dude I was fighting decided to "punch" me in my face during his follow-through of a men that I successfully managed to block. I'm not exactly a light little lady, but standing at something close to 6'5" and visibly weighing well over 200 lbs, his shitty follow-through lifted me off my feet and landed me (after a bit of sliding) outside the court. I cracked a rib.

Also -- as someone who was previously notably aggressive -- I became startlingly hesitant when fighting people that had such disparate heights/weights. Albeit the change was somewhat understandable, it was incredibly frustrating to me. Excessive force and repeatedly misplaced strikes are often ignored although there are provisions in federation rules that make them illegal. The only way I could deal with it was to create reactions geared towards neutralizing that sort of behavior. Anti-dirty waza, if you will. Have I perfected them? Hell no. But instead of letting my fear of getting hurt prevent me from fighting at my best, and to avoid the uselessness of my anger urging me to fight fire with fire, I've tried to build myself a bucket of cold water to throw on jerks who feel it necessary to use that kind of shit to get a leg up.

For example: I was later fighting someone again well beyond 6' in height, and he was having a ball running into me and pushing against me trying to elbow me out of the ring. Smartly, he was only doing it right after striking so that it could be considered part of his follow-through. My serious disadvantage (my height) was also my one advantage. The effort he was putting into using his upper body to shove me around was leaving him really off-balance. I calmly waited for him to back-off and set-up for another flurry of too-close men strikes and kote getting shoved in my face, and right as he went in, I delivered a pretty decent gyaku-do (not a point by any means, but on the target area) and stepped out of his way. Because he'd been leaning in to get his hands in my face, he completely lost his balance and fell down and out of the ring. When our match resumed, he was a lot more hesitant to spend so much time shoving me around, which I'll gladly admit was deeply satisfying. :D

[Raindrop]

For example: I was later fighting someone again well beyond 6' in height, and he was having a ball running into me and pushing against me trying to elbow me out of the ring. Smartly, he was only doing it right after striking so that it could be considered part of his follow-through. My serious disadvantage (my height) was also my one advantage. The effort he was putting into using his upper body to shove me around was leaving him really off-balance. I calmly waited for him to back-off and set-up for another flurry of too-close men strikes and kote getting shoved in my face, and right as he went in, I delivered a pretty decent gyaku-do (not a point by any means, but on the target area) and stepped out of his way. Because he'd been leaning in to get his hands in my face, he completely lost his balance and fell down and out of the ring. When our match resumed, he was a lot more hesitant to spend so much time shoving me around, which I'll gladly admit was deeply satisfying. :D

That's like the kind of Kendo Mr.Miyagi would teach, ne? xD Thanks for the tip! Yes working on my balance and being nimble and fast is something I'm working on at the moment, so I can react better in such situations. Side-stepping out of the way of a high speed pusher is like a wonderful dream. ^_^

I'm not having any trouble with the anger issue anymore so far. I found my zen/focus point in a way I can't really describe it and everyone seems to have their own method but it works for me.

Extensive talking with the right group of sempai works wonders as well :D

[Toecutter]

I had one really bad experience with excessive force during shiai when the dude I was fighting decided to "punch" me in my face during his follow-through of a men that I successfully managed to block.
I know this has been talked about in the previous pages but aren't you supposed to "punch the mengane" in a follow through? Almost everyone of my teachers is constantly on me about that because I tend to lift my hands up so i don't make contact with the mengane. I'm not trying to say what happened in Mihoshi's experience was acceptable just that when you hit men or what ever aren't you supposed to have your left hand about sternum-throat level and right about lower mengane to mid face? I know I personally have trouble doing this because I worry about hurting the other person but it seems to be a consensus among my teachers at least to go through with hands at the above height. I’m not trying to say that I’m being told to hurt someone just that the proper technique is to follow through like the above, can anyone clarify that?

[hyuna]

I’m not trying to say that I’m being told to hurt someone just that the proper technique is to follow through like the above, can anyone clarify that?
The way teach it in our dojo, after hitting men, your left fist should be at sternum height and your right fist should be about 1 fist below the level of your shoulder.

There should be no power or tension in your arms after you strike. This means if your opponent moves, your hands should stay as they are. If your opponent does not move, then, since your arms have no power, your hands will fold directly back to your body for tai-atari.

Note that because your right hand is below shoulder height, you will be no contact with mengane.

I have seen some dojo say to keep your hands still after you cut, and some say to push forward, but even so it is stretching forward, as though to slice the forehead, and not up, as though to lift the shinai off of the top of the head.

I have seen some dojo teach that as your arms fold back to your body they will drop so that your right hand is about sternum height for taiatari and you will make taiatari with your hands between you and your opponent. Others teach that your hands fold directly back to your chest and then taiatari is dou-to-dou.

[Neil Gendzwill]

As Arthur said, keep the arms extended at the same height of the hit until just before the crash, then bring them in and make taiatari. In addition to being dangerous for your opponent, coming in with your arms high and stiff is dangerous for you. Somebody is eventually going to come under you with a clean taiatari and knock you on your butt.

[Mihoshi]

I know this has been talked about in the previous pages but aren't you supposed to "punch the mengane" in a follow through?

As Hyun-sensei and Niel both pointed out, there are alternate ways of being taught. In fact, in both dojos I've trained it, our members tend to be severely reprimanded if you lift your hands up after striking men instead of holding them at the sternum level. I wasn't aware that any other way of doing it was considered correct (although plenty aware that people have bad habits, myself fully included), but I sure as hell don't purport to know everything.

[Raindrop]

As Arthur said, keep the arms extended at the same height of the hit until just before the crash, then bring them in and make taiatari. In addition to being dangerous for your opponent, coming in with your arms high and stiff is dangerous for you. Somebody is eventually going to come under you with a clean taiatari and knock you on your butt.

Just because it's one of my faves: youtube link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UmJ0F0c-YQ)

[JByrd]

Note that because your right hand is below shoulder height, you will be no contact with mengane.


... unless your opponent is significantly shorter than you are.

[hyuna]

... unless your opponent is significantly shorter than you are.
If your opponent is significantly shorter than you are and you stop your fist there, then you won't be hitting their men since you'll be stopping the shinai before hitting them :)

[JByrd]

If your opponent is significantly shorter than you are and you stop your fist there, then you won't be hitting their men since you'll be stopping the shinai before hitting them :)

It's not been my experience that the height of my hands corresponds so closely to the height of my opponent's head. I don't feel like my finishing position after men uchi is a whole lot different when my opponent is within 6 inches or so of my height. I'm 5'11'' and I can hit my 5'2'' wife's men just fine without bringing my hands down so low that they would be below her men gane. I keiko with her a lot, and I have learned to be very careful not to impact her head with my hands after a strike.

[hyuna]

It's not been my experience that the height of my hands corresponds so closely to the height of my opponent's head. I don't feel like my finishing position after men uchi is a whole lot different when my opponent is within 6 inches or so of my height. I'm 5'11'' and I can hit my 5'2'' wife's men just fine without bringing my hands down so low that they would be below her men gane. I keiko with her a lot, and I have learned to be very careful not to impact her head with my hands after a strike.
I was being a bit flippant with my answer before.

It's a matter of angles, of course. Your arms can only go so low, so, clearly, the shorter the person you are practicing with the higher your hands are likely to be relative to their body. In extreme situations, maybe your hands will not even be able to go below the top of their men. My usual rule of thumb is to finish with my right arm pointed at my opponent's mune, but, because of the distance, sometimes that does mean that my fist is at the height of their face.

I think the key to not punching your opponent has more to do with relaxing your arms after the hit than the height of your hands. I was only calling out the height because toecutter said he thought that the right hand should be at the height of the mengane.

[Wesley Myers]

anyway, it seems that Im in a period of test somehow

As hard as it is now, you know you are the better person and in a short period of time (before you know it) the other quy will have quit Kendo and you will still be part of Kendo.

[foundinsea]

Too much to read, but I think I get the point...that being said I can only add this, for what it's worth...

Kendo, like in life, some people mature faster than others, whilst some people just like acting their shoe size for life.

Generally speaking, those that feel the "need" to fight dirty during shiai only prove one thing - they have no skill. With enough practice anyone can hit straight and accurate during kihon. It's takes a different skill to be able to fight well in shiai and being accurate during jikeiko is no indication of someone's shiai skill. So if anyone is being dirty on purpose, then it goes to their state of mind during shiai - meaning that they are neither calm nor focused, ergo they are probably more worried about you than you are of them.

So stick to your kendo and as much as possible ignore what they do. When they find that they can't distract your focus, they'll have nothing left to turn to but their insecure kendo...which plays into your game. And, as you get better and stronger, they get left behind because all they got is dirty tricks that don't work.

And one last thing...if someone hits you with a "low blow do", raise your shinai real quick and hammer down hard on theirs near the tsuba - chances are you may knock the shinai out of their hands. OR go for their men for the point - it's all timing.