If the shinai were to be replaced with a shinken..

[Tokidoki]

how deep would the wounds inflicted to one's opponent be?
Assuming that one is using small waza.
I've been practicing kendo for about a year and I've always wondered about this. With enough force, how deep would you be able to cut/slice someone if you use small waza?

[Martino]

It dosn't work that way.

To me kendo has evolved away from practicing how to kill people and more to a philosophy of style of grace.

During that time small cut has evolved due to the killing aspect been removed and the concept of striking the target area with set conditions has been added.

I believe this is why kendo is packaged with Jodo and Iaido.
Kendo: trains people to feel comfortable striking other and been struck yourself.
Iaido: Gives and understanding of of handling a blade and respecting it.
Jodo: Gives a understanding of forces and momentum

Naturally there are crossovers and other blade arts like tamasuguri would also assist in an individuals understanding.

If you are keen though break out your maths books, get some scales that measure forces and do the sums. Local college most probably the best place to look (for books and measuring equipment)

[stealth_monkey]

With shinken, much of the cutting power comes from withdrawing the blade more than the cut itself. Given this, I'd suggest it would be extremely difficult to penetrate bone with a seme men, but you'd easily cut down to it. When it comes to killing someone, the top of the skull/forehead is actually an extremely inefficient location to strike (The most efficient I would assume being kesa to the shoulder or neck). I've had instructors tell me that the reason men is practised is because it is far more difficult than any other cut.

If you're set on penetrating skull though, I'd suggest it depends on the strength of the person. The idea that cutting requires no physical strength tends to be idealised in JSA, but when you're cutting through bone it's ludicrous you'd be able to do that without significant strength to back it up. I'd say a large, strong kendoka might be able to cut through a significant way, but a smaller practitioner wouldn't be able to do it using a small cut

[hl1978]

how deep would the wounds inflicted to one's opponent be?
Assuming that one is using small waza.
I've been practicing kendo for about a year and I've always wondered about this. With enough force, how deep would you be able to cut/slice someone if you use small waza?

Search for posts by SangWoooKim.

He holds ranking in kendo as well as toyama-ryu I believe and posted about using kendo style cuts while preforming tamishigiri as well as cutting like you would with a shinken during kendo.

[Tokidoki]

I see..
Thanks for the responses.

[Maro]

You don't have to use massive arcing cuts with a shinken. A Kote style strike will effectivaly cut a Wara in two. It's handy to be able to do both (And all the other stuff as well).

[Peter West]

I don't think comparing old-style iaido kirioroshi (kiritsuke) with Kendo (eg sashi men) is the issue here. I think the question is if you used a shinken but made the kendo style cut, how deep would it go.
Let me turn the question around, how deep would it need to go? 2cm? 5cm? Don't forget that although a shinai bounces off the men gane, a real sword wouldn't do that.
Do uchi for example would cut into the wakibara, maybe taking floating ribs. This will cut through intestines, possibly through the liver and if you were a little closer possibly a kidney too. It would stop the enemy. Whether you cut left or right side might make some difference, but do uchi is not a long way apart from MSR Ryuto.
You only have to cut a few tree branches to know that a kote cut will remove a hand easily.
So, to men uchi. If your tenouchi is timed to stop the sword at about the centre of the face, then with the sword in the wound you continue pressing forward with okuri ashi as prescribed in standard basic kendo, pressing the sword through until the tsuba hits the enemy's face, then as you pass beside him twists his head, breaks his neck and removes one side of his head. Do you think that would be enough?

[ScottUK]

If the shinai were to be replaced with a shinken..I reckon it would hurt quite a bit.

[xvikingx]

I'm not really interesting in this subject but I thought I might as well add...

I have seen tameshigiri done with "small kendo-like cuts" on wara and bamboo. chop chop chop chop chop... they cut through just as easily as someone making large cuts.

How would that work on human? Hmmm.... You could probably ruin someone's shit big time.

[C.Redgate]

It wouldn't take much force to open an artery and cause your opponent to rapidly bleed out...

Here's a link to a pretty well done BBC documentary which has some awesome footage of Otake Risuke Sensei of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. He mentions (I think in part 2?) that the strikes in TSKSR are meant to target the arteries and the weak points in the armor used during the warring states period... Most of the strikes in kendo are not to the same targets, though do uchi placed slightly lower, or kote uchi aimed at the inside rather than the top of the wrist/forearm would qualify... Small waza, IMHO would work just as well as large waza if striking vital areas is your aim.

This doesn't really answer your question, but I thought it was at least somewhat related. Otake Sensei seems to be quite accomodating when it comes to talking with the media and even allowing demonstrations of some TSKSR kata to be recorded on video... I think there's another BBC program about him on YouTube.

Just so it's been said, I've never practiced TSKSR or any other koryu. I just have an interest and thought I'd pass along this documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9HR7TTOReE

[jhk]

I might be in the wrong here. But I thought that some of the point with the small Men attack is that it is not so much of a cut as knife slice. You place your sword in the forehead of your opponent, then you lock your hands with tenouchi, whereupon you have your whole body weight behind your sword and is fast moving forward using it as a knife. Not nice.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In practical terms, you use tenouchi to make a nice "pop" sound as it strikes the men-buton and then comes back up. There's not much slicing going on. You don't "lock" your hands with tenouchi.

[Anonymous]

Regardless of how the guy is swinging the sword, I don't want to get hit by it anyway.

[ender84567]

you dont need to cut someone in half to lobotomize them, a half inch deep into the skull and they are a drooling infant.

[ScottUK]

you dont need to cut someone in half to lobotomize them, a half inch deep into the skull and they are a drooling infant.Looks like 90% of the KW membership have been motodachi for shinken then.

[pgsmith]

If the shinai were to be replaced with a shinken ...
Then there would be very few people to practice with.

Looks like 90% of the KW membership have been motodachi for shinken then.
Darn it!!! I never get to be part of the popular crowd! :(

[Wesley Myers]

There's not much slicing going on.

Unless you're Jim Wilson in his "official guide to Kendo and Iaido" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSHti0yOIY). :)

[hyuna]

I'm dubious that someone could do small men with a shinken without a lot of specific practice, since a shinken weighs maybe around 4x as much as a shinai. Unless, of course, there is some koryu that does a small men like we do in kendo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm dubious that someone could do small men with a shinken without a lot of specific practice, since a shinken weighs maybe around 4x as much as a shinai.Not that much. Maybe 2 to 3 X. A shinai is 500-600 g, a shinken 1200-1500 or so. I've seen swordstore steel iaito at under 1000g. That's very light, but the point is shinken aren't as heavy as people think they are.

[hyuna]

Not that much. Maybe 2 to 3 X. A shinai is 500-600 g, a shinken 1200-1500 or so. I've seen swordstore steel iaito at under 1000g. That's very light, but the point is shinken aren't as heavy as people think they are.
Hmm. I could've sworn typical weight was around 1 lb = 2200g. Maybe I am thinking of gunto? Or maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Iaito are lighter but they're alloy and so I don't think that applies.

Anyway, even at a mere 2-3x the weight, I still think that you can't just pick it up and handle it the same as the shinai.

[ScottUK]

1lb is 450g.

Glad I don't follow your method of conversion. I would weigh the same as an orca.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Anyway, even at a mere 2-3x the weight, I still think that you can't just pick it up and handle it the same as the shinai.Of course not, I was just being persnickety.

But I did see Haga-sensei demonstrate an effortless kote-style cut on newspaper years ago. Think he was using his iaito though...

[hl1978]

Hmm. I could've sworn typical weight was around 1 lb = 2200g. Maybe I am thinking of gunto? Or maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Iaito are lighter but they're alloy and so I don't think that applies.

Anyway, even at a mere 2-3x the weight, I still think that you can't just pick it up and handle it the same as the shinai.

You have it reversed, its 2.2lbs to 1 kg.

I would agree, shinken and iaido hae different balances etc. if I took up someone elses set of golf clubs of a different length, materials etc I could likely use them, but not be as comfortable as with my own equipment.

[hyuna]

1lb is 450g.

Glad I don't follow your method of conversion. I would weigh the same as an orca.
Hrm. 1 kg = 2.2 pounds, not 1 pound = 2.2 kg.
details, details... Good thing I'm not a rocket scientist

[Wesley Myers]

Hrm. 1 kg = 2.2 pounds, not 1 pound = 2.2 kg.
details, details... Good thing I'm not a rocket scientist

Are you sure you don't work for NASA? :)

[Maro]

Most of the people who train with shinken would be used to the weight. You might find it heavy but they wouldn't.

[still learning]

I [would ?] weigh the same as an orca.

Given your dimensions - - don't EVER wear White Gi - Black Hakama combo....

No doubt someone would yell 'Free Willie.....'

There would be people killed in the rush [...for the exit]

[ScottUK]

Bugger. Can't neg-rep you. Will have to settle with kin-geri when I see you in just over a week.

[Josh Reyer]

Bugger. Can't neg-rep you. Will have to settle with kin-geri when I see you in just over a week.You're going to splash him with golden diarrhea? Or were you thinking "tama-keri"?

[ScottUK]

Always known this technique (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbcN3PWzNV4) as kingeri.

[pgsmith]

No doubt someone would yell 'Free Willie.....'
I thought that's why the Scots wear kilts? ...

[Bailemor]

1lb is 450g.

Glad I don't follow your method of conversion. I would weigh the same as an orca.


Must resist the urge to comment, but it looks toooo easy :laugh: