Nitou in tournaments and my wrist hertz (;_;)

[Musha]

For a few months I have been trying to learn Nito ryuu from a book. I don't know why, but Musashi said it is good to touch on all the martial arts and I think Nito looks interesting.

First I wanted to know, if in some miracle I get really good at Nito or just feel like doing it. Could I ask to do it in a normal kendo Shiai? I read that people do Jodan in normal shiai and even tournaments.

Now I am learning about cutting with one hand. The book says that you should find the centre of gravity of the shinai or a bokken or Niten ichi ryu bokken and then practice swinging not from the tsuka (Handle) but from that centre of gravity. This is a little confusing, it works a little but really makes my wrist heart after a wile. There seems to be no power or speed at all but I don't want to use my wrist too much because it says not too and I find in kendo you can swing a lot faster and better with no use of energy.

[Eldritch Knight]

Coudln't tell you about nito, but you can do joudan in shiai

[Inouye02]

first of all , I don't think its a good ideal to learn nito from a book, it would be more helpful to learn from a good instructor, he can point things that you are doing wrong , 2nd before you even start to use one arm , i would suggest training your arm , do as moocow did , alot of one handed suburi , weights, i did it and it help especialy when you have to hold the shinai over your head for extended periods of time ..

but i would ask moocow for help ..

[Musha]

Hi Inouye02, Thanks for your reply. If I was in Japan maybe I could find a Nito dojyo. But I don't actually think there are any in the UK. If there were I don't think I could get there and kendo at the same time. Maybe in future, but for now I am finding it interesting to understand the basics by my self :D. Maybe if I am ever faced with a Nito senshuu it would know what do...

It also says about training your arms in the book, I can also use my right arm and even left pretty well even with my big dobari shinai. It is just hard work to get good cuts out of it :(. Maybe I just need a little more practice... :cool:

[litige]

I don't think there dojos that specialize in Nito, ask your Sensei for teaching. Maybe he can give you some hints.

[Inouye02]

hey Musha, your welcome , you can also send for the Nito Video from E-Bogu, but then again it doesn't have the moocow waza's in it ..gotta come to So Cal for those..

[Musha]

There was an English sensei that came to my dojyo when I first started learning that could do Nito and tried it against another sensei but I have not seen him since that time. But if I did see him again I think he would be too busy to teach me :(.

[JSchmidt]

There's a couple of guys doing nito in the UK. (Their names escapes me), one is up north, the other I *think* is at Nenriki in London.
Regardless, I wouldnt start doing it unless you got the support from your seniors.

Jakob

[sjp]

Hi Inouye02, But I don't actually think there are any in the UK. :


As I recall I've only seen 2 Uk guys doing nito.
Gavin Thriepland in Newcastle
Clive Sinclaire in London



At one time the chairman John Howell did Nito

[GMason]

Hi Steve,

Eric is talking about Steve Harwood, as he fences Nito from time to time. He started whilst he was out in Japan, I don't know much about Nito but he struck me as being pretty good at it..... Struck me get it... did you see what I did there..... sorry bad joke :redface: :redface: :redface:

[Musha]

Thanks again Gareth :D,

I remember that he had been to Japan and some one said he could speak Japanese but I knew almost nothing about Kendo at that time. I think I was just starting to use bogu borrowed from my Sensei.
I thought every one could do Nito at that time hehe.
He used the two shinai like some one fighting with one though.

[ralphy]

Musha,

which language is the book are you using written in? Everything I found was in Japanese.

Regards,
Ralph

[Musha]

Ralph, this book is in Japanese too and quite hard Japanese at that . I have read some parts twice because I did not understand it the first time. I got it from Amazon Japan but you can also get it from E-bogu http://www.e-bogu.com/nitoryu.html

I think people out side Japan are really missing out with the lack of text that is sold about kendo. It is good learning from your sensei but, unless this is just me I find some of the harder techniques a little hard to follow. So really love a book by 6th dan Inoue sensei that includes lots of photos step by step of very basic to harder techniques like Uchi otoshi men and diagrams in full colour!! . I wish I could translate them but don't know how.. never mind where to send it when finished :(.

[Hokushin]

Hi Musha nice to meet you

I live in The UK and nito fighter which is based on Musashi-Kai. although I can not teach you nito, because I am still learning it, but I can heip you some basic Kihon. Please e-mail me.

in one advise, Do not use 39 or 38 shinai for keiko. this has nothing to do with weight. I want you to get used to nito Ma a i (distance).

[Kirin]

[QUOTE=Hokushin]I live in The UK and nito fighter which is based on Musashi-Kai.QUOTE]
Musashi kai of Japan, lead by Nakamura sensei and Hakudo sensei?

[Hokushin]

Hi Kirin thank you for asking me. I am so gland that you know two big names.

yes Nakamura shihandai is 17th Ni ten ryu master. now surprisingly there is a head dojo in my region (Tochigi). as I live in the UK at the moment, through internet, I keep in touch with them. this is like learning disataice.

when I go back to Japan for a holidy, I try to attend thier Keiko kai in Tokyo or Aichi area as many as possbile I can.

[Hokushin]

[QUOTE=Hokushin]I live in The UK and nito fighter which is based on Musashi-Kai.QUOTE]
Musashi kai of Japan, lead by Nakamura sensei and Hakudo sensei?Hi Kirin thank you for asking me. I am so gland that you know two big names.

yes Nakamura shihandai is 17th Ni ten ryu master. now surprisingly there is a head dojo in my region (Tochigi). as I live in the UK at the moment, through internet, I keep in touch with them. this is like learning disataice.

when I go back to Japan for a holidy, I try to attend thier Keiko kai in Tokyo or Aichi area as many as possbile I can.

[Musha]

Hi Hokushin nice to meet you!

I still have my home made nito shinai but I'm concentraiting on Itto kendo at the moment. Emit at my dojyo does nito, i'm not sure if he is interested.

[Hyaku]

Hi Kirin thank you for asking me. I am so gland that you know two big names.

Yes Nakamura shihandai is 17th Ni ten ryu master. now surprisingly there is a head dojo in my region (Tochigi). as I live in the UK at the moment, through internet, I keep in touch with them. this is like learning disataice.

when I go back to Japan for a holidy, I try to attend thier Keiko kai in Tokyo or Aichi area as many as possbile I can.

Ni ten ryu master, shihandai?

[Hokushin]

Hi I am sorry my poor english
Ni ten ichi ryu １７ｔｈ　shihan (musashi no ken、２００３ p2)

[Hyaku]

Hi I am sorry my poor english
Ni ten ichi ryu ?????shihan (musashi no ken????? p2)

You still have me lost. Who on earth is the 17th shihan of the Niten Ichiryu?
Since when did the Niten Ichiryu even use the term Shihan?

[Musha]

Hokushin is talking about nito kendo, I think you know that Hyaku :wink:. I tried to explain a long... time ago well the start of this year :).

[Hyaku]

Hokushin is talking about nito kendo, I think you know that Hyaku :wink:. I tried to explain a long... time ago well the start of this year :).

But he said Niten Ichiryu? There is no connection. When will people get the message? Maybe they want to be connected with us but we really don't want to be connected with them!

[Musha]

Poor Hyaku :down:...
Talking about Niten ichi ryu do you know why you must be at Dan level to go to the Niten ichi ryu seminar in France? And a Dan in which field? How many Niten ichi ryu dan are there in Europe I wonder...

I think it is way to late for me to go along any way but..

[Hyaku]

Poor Hyaku :down:...
Talking about Niten ichi ryu do you know why you must be at Dan level to go to the Niten ichi ryu seminar in France? And a Dan in which field? How many Niten ichi ryu dan are there in Europe I wonder...

I think it is way to late for me to go along any way but..

I did say we! The thing is Soke has very little idea of the worlds present extent of electronic media as a means of promoting things. Or put it this way he "had" no idea, has been enlightened and is not too happy to say the least. Some people have certainly taken a few libertys in using what is his intellectual copyright as present head of the ryu.

I did here the word "solicitor" mentioned a few weeks ago. An old but very respected man in the Budo world in Japan with well meaning students around him to take care of things.

There are no Dan requirements in Koryu. There is no Keppan either. As far as I know our person that is organizing things is France has not expressed any requirements. If this is the case please tell me and I will chase it up asap. Also anyone can take part regardless of associations. We do not have and have no need of political ties.

[Hokushin]

To Hyakyu
Hi hi I am getting.... what you wand to say is that niten ichi ryu is connected with your kobudo as well as Mushikai. therefore I must not say my sensei is shihan of niten ichi ryu.

is it right? Ok, I aplosise to you because you did not say niten ichi ryu (Musashi-kai)

can I tell one thing? Are you really doing budo ? what is your attitude?? hey do you think I am a young boy? if you are a budouka, why don't you introduce yourself first.

anyway I do not really want to argue this anymore. I feel sick of this.

PS as you know, there are some ryu-ha in niten-chi ryu. (Terao-ha... etc) Of course I respect your ryuha (hyoho niten ich ryu) as a kobudo.

but remember we are talking about Kendo not Kobudo.

[Hyaku]

To Hyakyu
Hi hi I am getting.... what you wand to say is that niten ichi ryu is connected with your kobudo as well as Mushikai. therefore I must not say my sensei is shihan of niten ichi ryu.

is it right? Ok, I aplosise to you because you did not say niten ichi ryu (Musashi-kai)

Are you honestly saying you did not know that the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu
is a Japanese Koryu? It is not "connected" as you put it. The ryu is "The
Ryu with no connections with anything else.


Can I tell one thing? Are you really doing budo ? what is your attitude?? hey do you think I am a young boy? if you are a budouka, why don't you introduce yourself first.

Well what you did say sounded a bit infantile. In Japan we say Kora (hey) to the dog. Not trying to pull a bit of nenko joretsu are you. But sure I can introduce myself: A Kendo, Iaido, Battojutsu Yudansha, a Koryu Menkyo Kaiden at 42. Now I am 57 and represent two old Koryu both nationaly and internationally. No big deal and I am not trying to pull rank. Just state a few obvious facts.

Anyway I do not really want to argue this anymore. I feel sick of this. I had no wish to argue in the first place and still do not. I merely wished to point out a matter of misrepresentation that was clearly made if you read back over what "you" said.

PS as you know, there are some ryu-ha in niten-chi ryu. (Terao-ha... etc) Of course I respect your ryuha (hyoho niten ich ryu) as a kobudo. but remember we are talking about Kendo not Kobudo.

If you read the front page of my homepage you will see that we have no interest whatsoever in Ha. They can do as they please. The evidence lies in dojo practice and demonstrations. We have national recognition of who we are, buts that no big deal either. To the trained eye its not to difficult to see who is who.

My apologies if you think I was angry. But I do get a bit p???ed off with people who keep publicising Nito Kendo as Niten Ichiryu. I do both and clearly know they have no connection The Soke of the ryu also teaches Kendo but has never picked up "two shinai"

PS And its Hyaku (as in Bushi) a name abbreviation, not Hyakyu. Did you think I was eighth kyu?

My apologies to anyone else that may have read the thread. But as long as people keep saying and have the delusion Nito Kendo is Niten Ichiryu I will respond. The Gorin no Sho has a lot of very grey areas and like kendo we can't learn from a book.

Back to practice! I have a demonstration in the French Senate in a few weeks.

[Musha]

On the nitenryu is asks :How many years have you practised? Then at the bottom (Minimum level required 5 years to black belt level).

I haven't got enough money to go to France any way :(.

Hokushin, Hayaku is a sensei and I know he knows what he is talking about.

About ryuha, I think not name or rank reprensents a ryuha or sensei. If you were to meet a man with the same name as you. That man could not say he was you.
If the Hyoho niten ichi ryu same gets copy-righted.. that will be sad :silly:.

[Hokushin]

I am appreciated that you pointed out many things. I am sorry for my rudeness.



>But I do get a bit p???ed off with people who keep publicising Nito Kendo as Niten Ichiryu. I do both and clearly know they have no connection



>But as long as people keep saying and have the delusion Nito Kendo is Niten Ichiryu I will respond.



I am very impressed at your strong belief toward Niten ichi ryu. However, as you said, The Gorin no Sho has a lot of very grey areas and like kendo we can't learn from a book. It means that a lot of his students (es terao brothers) have developed musashi’ idea



You also don’t need to be a good western Christian missionary.

Don’t worry ! If nito kendo was not good, naturally, Japanese would get rid of it

If it still survives in 100 years later, it may be categorised as Ko budo.

present is past (imawa mukashi)


>Back to practice! I have a demonstration in the French Senate in a few weeks



Thank you for your advise. You too, back to practice, we are all learner until died

I do my best, you do my best. That’s it

I wish the demonstration will be successful



PS> And its Hyaku (as in Bushi) a name abbreviation, not Hyakyu. Did you think I was eighth kyu?

I like this, you have got a good sense of humour.

oh if you do not mind, could you tell me why The Soke of the ryu also teaches Kendo but has never picked up "two shinai" ?

because shinai is never associtated with swords??

[Hyaku]

You also don’t need to be a good western Christian missionary.

Thanks for replying. I work for Jodo Shinshu here in Japan.

Oh if you do not mind, could you tell me why The Soke of the ryu also teaches Kendo but has never picked up "two shinai" because shinai is never associtated with swords??

That's because he considers Hyoho Niten Ichiryu and Kendo to be seperate. They have little resemblance in any way. In Kamae, Tenouchi, Seme to name but a few.

Of course some of the mental side comes over if you do "sen" only. Go sen no sen etc is what you should study in others. The thing is when Musashi says about lots of things in Gorin no Sho, "You should research this well" he does not mean we should actually do it. Doing Hyoho Niten Ichiryu helps us seperate what we actually do and what we research. I suppose when others read it they thing we should do whats written down in its entirety.

Niten Ichiryu is not associated with swords either. As you know in Musashi's later life he had favoured a bokuto to a sword. On the other hand you can kill people with bokuto if need be. Not with a shinai. Its his philosophy in later life we try to emulate.

Regards

[kanyil]

Perhaps some of the misunderstanding arose out of the book "Musashi no Ken" (not the comic), which is a book on the use of nito-ryu written by the soke of Musashi-Kai.

In the very first few pages of that book a lineage chart of provided for the readers, in which it was stated that Miyamoto Musashi's art branched off into a number of different lines (hyoho niten ichi-ryu; musashi-kai niten-ichi ryu; Shinmen(?) niten-ichi-ryu etc).

And from the book it appeared that Musashi-kai niten-ichi ryu is closely related to nito-ryu as used in kendo, and hence the misunderstanding.

[crabbi]

A very interesting and humbling thread!!!

...But going back to the question in the very first posting... Can Nito be used in Kendo Shiai?

crabbi

[crabbi]

I am learning a lot from following your posts Hyaku ... on various threads...!

Now you have sent me off to look at Jodo Shinshu... also fascinating!

Thanks

crabbi

[crabbi]

Also... an additional question...

When I have seen Nitto style demonstrated, or in books... the Kendoka using Nitto is always fighting a Kendoka using the Itto Shinai style...

Is this always the case, or do Nitto style Kendoka fight each other in Shiai using both shinai?

crabbi

(Please excuse any incorrect terms... I am a Kendo noob and eager to learn so would welcome any correction!)

[Chusan]

Here`s a photograph from a recent taikai in Germany, showing Thorsten using Nito in tournament:
http://www.pds-recklinghausen.de/pix/image6901.JPG

[crabbi]

Nice photo Chusan...

Also ... in the book 'Nito-Ryu no Waza to Riron' there is a photo of two Kendoka using Nitto... but not sure if this is in a standard Kendo Shiai... I don't read Japanese...

crabbi

[Kaoru]

Ok... Sigh. Nito and Niten are TWO different words with two different meanings. This is one major reason WHY Nito Kendo is NOT (Hyoho)Niten Ichi Ryu.

Nito: means two swords.
Niten: means two Heavens

The reason Nito Kendo is NOT HNIR(also shortened to NIR sometimes.) is because shinai did not exist in Musashi's time, and neither did Kendo. This person claiming to be a soke of some "branch" of HNIR is forgetting this. It is a huge mistake, too.

How hard is it to understand they are NOT the same thing? :confused: I can't understand why it is so difficult.

That book you bought, is not real Nito waza. That's stuff made up by this Musashi kai person. A person would be much better off meeting and learning from a real Nito Kendo player that is a member of the BKA.

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Perhaps some of the misunderstanding arose out of the book "Musashi no Ken" (not the comic), which is a book on the use of nito-ryu written by the soke of Musashi-Kai.

In the very first few pages of that book a lineage chart of provided for the readers, in which it was stated that Miyamoto Musashi's art branched off into a number of different lines (hyoho niten ichi-ryu; musashi-kai niten-ichi ryu; Shinmen(?) niten-ichi-ryu etc).

There ARE no various branches. None whatsoever. Hyaku-sensei talked about this somewhere else, but I forget now, which thread. He's going to have to explain it again, I guess.


And from the book it appeared that Musashi-kai niten-ichi ryu is closely related to nito-ryu as used in kendo, and hence the misunderstanding.
This Musashi kai stuff isn't (H)NIR in any form. So, no misunderstanding. People always think HNIR Kenjutsu is Nito Kendo for some odd reason.

Let me put it this way. If you used the HNIR in Kendo, somebody would end up in the hospital. That's what Hyaku-sensei said.

Kaoru

[crabbi]

Ok... Sigh. Nito and Niten are TWO different words with two different meanings. This is one major reason WHY Nito Kendo is NOT (Hyoho)Niten Ichi Ryu.

Nito: means two swords.
Niten: means two Heavens

The reason Nito Kendo is NOT HNIR(also shortened to NIR sometimes.) is because shinai did not exist in Musashi's time, and neither did Kendo. This person claiming to be a soke of some "branch" of HNIR is forgetting this. It is a huge mistake, too.

How hard is it to understand they are NOT the same thing? :confused: I can't understand why it is so difficult.

That book you bought, is not real Nito waza. That's stuff made up by this Musashi kai person. A person would be much better off meeting and learning from a real Nito Kendo player that is a member of the BKA.

Kaoru
ROFL.... Kaoru... you have expended a lot of energy explaining the difference before... and believe me that this humble participant in the Forum has understood the disctinction!!! (..and I have the battle scars to prove it!!!).

My question has nothing to do with Niten Ichi Ryu... I only want to know if two sword (Nitto?) style Kendo is commonly used in Shiai?

Simple question... No trying to go over old ground... No answer so far...

crabbi

[Kaoru]

ROFL.... Kaoru... you have expended a lot of energy explaining the difference before... and believe me that this humble participant in the Forum has understood the disctinction!!! (..and I have the battle scars to prove it!!!).

My question has nothing to do with Niten Ichi Ryu... I only want to know if two sword (Nitto?) style Kendo is commonly used in Shiai?

Simple question... No trying to go over old ground... No answer so far...

crabbi
Hi Crabbi-san,

hehehe, Sorry, my reply actually, was for Musha and the other guy. I knew you got it. :) Musha has trouble understanding the difference. He still seems to think Hyaku-sensei is wrong for some odd reason. At least, that is the impression I just got from his really impolite replies to Hyaku-sensei. Somehow, I missed this thread until now. Just as well... :D

To answer, well attempt to answer, your question, I think it is not common. Nobody in my dojo has ever used it. And, when I went to the AUSKF National Summer camp this year and last, I never saw it used once, and each time, we had about 100 kenshi there. Most were Yudansha. So, I think it isn't very common. Maybe it might be more so in Japan, but I really couldn't tell you.

Well, I hope that was of some help. :)

Kaoru

[DCPan]

That book you bought, is not real Nito waza. That's stuff made up by this Musashi kai person.

OK, some FACTUAL errors here.

1. This Musashi Kai person didn't make it up. His teacher, Arazeki Nitosai, made up the style...actually.

Out of Print Book (http://www.budogu.com/html/nito_index.htm)

2. His teacher, Arazeki Nitosai, actually calls it Shin Niten Ichi Ryu...because his dream was to formalize a set of nito kata that would work with the structure of modern kendo.

3. Saying that the book isn't HNIR is one thing, and I'll leave that for the HNIR folks to say. That being said, I'm not so sure saying that they are not "real" Nito waza is entirely appropriate. It's one thing for someone with the experience and affiliation of Hyakutake sensei to say so. It's quite another to have other people jump on the bandwagon.

The book in question by Mr. Nakamura is actually the second book regarding their style of Shin Niten Ichi Ryu.

A person would be much better off meeting and learning from a [b]real Nito Kendo player that is a member of the BKA.

BTW, Mr. Nakamura is a REAL nito kendo player. He does "nito kendo".

Whether he is a legit HNIR person is a different issue from whether or not there is anything unsound in the nito techniques he presented in his book.

Mr. Nakamura was a high school champion or something like that before a back injury forced him to stop practicing. His exposure to nito kendo allowed him to move in a different way that allowed him to compete and practice again (or so it says in the prologue).

I have no vested interest in determing whether he's legit or not, or defending the guy. I am writing because it does bother me to hear people say things like "so and so isn't doing nito kendo" when they probably haven't seen nito kendo in action.

FWIW.

[kensin]

Question to ask is really, how many times in duel has Mr. Musashi used his Nitou technique as histroy recall?

Most of the times Musashi sun was just battling with his single katana just like what we folks usually do.

Recall correctly if I did, he only invented this Nitenryu as he finally became a 60 nen ojiisan, as he said that himself.

ojiisan never really applied nitenryu. //

Has seen some one applying Nitou technique last week. Not very impressive. What u simply do agaisnt him is to change chudan-waza to jodan, so he cannot block u and get ur ken-sen aside. And u hit his men from side. So if he holds his longer shinai with his left hand, u hit him from the right. And he has no tsuki. That's all. Easy.

Another thing u can do is to exhaust him, becuase it is very tiresome to hold the shinai with one hand all up there. You have an advantage in this sense, becuase u are holding ur shinai with two hands. So get him tired, use ur advantage.

3rd thing, hem? Don't worry about the shorter shinai. It is only a bait, a dummy, something to confuse u. It never counts in shiai.

4th, his kote is all up there, widely open. What do u do? Get it. It has no protection.
But when u go for No.4, u better be careful. Most of the Nitou kendoka know u r going for that. They practice hard to counterattack this strategy. So it might be a trap for u.

5th, use ur hiki-waza.

So the sequence to apply my humble advice would be, if u ever waan to give a try

1. Hold jodan, so avoid him push ur ken-sen aside

2. Get him tired on his hand and arm which hold the long one.

3*. Ignore the shorter shinai, confuse his mai. He has no chudan, it is more difficult for him to measure distance. But at the same time, it is the same for u. So control ur distance.

4. Randomise between his kote and his men side.

5. Do hiki. It's easier for u to do hiki than him.

Most of the nitou kendoka, u will meet will be advanced kendokas. So not somebody u can easily handle if u r still kyu.

The things I said above only works if u keep on practicing. Because the nitoukas know allm these. Even if they don't know, they will learn it after they read my post.








For a few months I have been trying to learn Nito ryu from a book. I don't know why, but Musashi said it is good to touch on all the martial arts and I think Nito looks interesting.

First I wanted to know, if in some miracle I get really good at Nito or just feel like doing it. Could I ask to do it in a normal kendo Shiai? I read that people do Jodan in normal shiai and even tournaments.

Now I am learning about cutting with one hand. The book says that you should find the centre of gravity of the shinai or a bokken or Niten ichi ryu bokken and then practice swinging not from the tsuka (Handle) but from that centre of gravity. This is a little confusing, it works a little but really makes my wrist heart after a wile. There seems to be no power or speed at all but I don't want to use my wrist too much because it says not too and I find in kendo you can swing a lot faster and better with no use of energy.

[DCPan]

The book says that you should find the centre of gravity of the shinai or a bokken or Niten ichi ryu bokken and then practice swinging not from the tsuka (Handle) but from that centre of gravity. This is a little confusing...

That's actually not quite what is said....

This very same concept is actually discussed in this book: Here (http://www.e-bogu.com/Kendo_Semminar_for_Advanced_Japanese_p/kni-pub-boo-4-7899-2079-8--.htm)

Basically, it tells you to pay attention to the path that the center of mass is travelling...less wobbly - more efficient...what's efficient? Moving the center of mass in a straight line, forward and down....

Now, the line for sashi-men is another matter entirely....

FWIW.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Has seen some one applying Nitou technique last week. Not very impressive. What u simply do agaisnt him is to change chudan-waza to jodan, so he cannot block u and get ur ken-sen aside. And u hit his men from side.Doesn't work well against a good nito player unless you've got good jodan, and maybe not even then. If you're normally a chudan player, forget it.
Another thing u can do is to exhaust him, becuase it is very tiresome to hold the shinai with one hand all up there.Again, good nito players - likely in better shape than you. Have to be.
3rd thing, hem? Don't worry about the shorter shinai. It is only a bait, a dummy, something to confuse u. It never counts in shiai. Yeah, nothing to worry about - until you forget the maai and find your shinai tied up by the shoto and your men wide open.
4th, his kote is all up there, widely open. What do u do? Get it. It has no protection.Except that because his arms move independantly, he has more freedom to avoid your strike than a chudan player. Which makes the very inviting kote good bait. While you're missing kote, he's hitting men.
The things I said above only works if u keep on practicing. Because the nitoukas know allm these. Even if they don't know, they will learn it after they read my post.All I can say is, just wait until you finally get a chance to meet someone who knows what they're doing. There's a lot of nito shmoes out there that some of this stuff may work on - but the good ones will give you a whole lot of trouble.

[JSchmidt]

Jodan is virtually useless against nito, as the nito player can cover both his kotes and men. This leaves you with do (hah!) and tsuki (year, right).

Jakob

[DCPan]

Jodan is virtually useless against nito, as the nito player can cover both his kotes and men. This leaves you with do (hah!) and tsuki (year, right).

Jakob

I was waiting for someone to say that! :wink:

One of the local PNKF sensei that also use Jodan comes to our club to practice from time to time. When he practices with our Nito user, he uses chudan as well.

When I asked him why, he said, "Jodan is practically useless against nito".

But personally, I don't agree.

A group of visitors from Kanagawa came earlier this year. I watched one of the sensei use jodan to take several nito users apart. Granted, there is a skill disparity to begin with, but that's not the point.

The point is this: For the kamae of fire, you should never abandon your confidence in it... (Or so I was taught).

I don't think using Jodan against nito is really that different than fighting someone using katate-jodan or ai-jodan.... So he has an extra-stick...you have more reach.

I didn't see Tenken take chudan just because he was fighting Moocow either.

Nor did I see the visiting sensei abandon his Jodan against the various weird kamaes his opponents took....

I'm not saying I'm good at jodan...I'm just surprised that committed jodan users would abandon the kamae on something so easily.

FWIW.

[JSchmidt]

I'm not saying I'm good at jodan...I'm just surprised that committed jodan users would abandon the kamae on something so easily.

Oh, I do try (Unfortunatly, godan who used to do nito has now gone back to Japan)
He would grab further up the tsuka, so that the bottom of the tsuka would cover his kote and have both hands in jodan position...so when he cut with the daito, the men (and remaining kote) were still covered.
Much much harder than fighting against ai-jodan, as you had to make him move his hands before any target was open.

Jakob

[DCPan]

Oh, I do try (Unfortunatly, godan who used to do nito has now gone back to Japan)
He would grab further up the tsuka, so that the bottom of the tsuka would cover his kote and have both hands in jodan position...so when he cut with the daito, the men (and remaining kote) were still covered.

What kind of nito did the godan do? Tadashii or gyaku?

[JSchmidt]

What kind of nito did the godan do? Tadashii or gyaku?
Heh..I can't honest remember:)...probably gyaku, as he always complained about his weak left hand :)
In 'normal' nito, he would practice both.

Jakob

[DCPan]

Heh..I can't honest remember:)...probably gyaku, as he always complained about his weak left hand :)
In 'normal' nito, he would practice both.

Jakob

Hi Batman :wink: ,

I’m glad you didn’t take any offense to what I said, as I believe you are a jodan kenshi.

I didn’t think it was humanly possible, but during an ai-gyaku-nito match, Moocow actually did a katate-kote off the opponent’s leading migi-kote holding the shoto and scored with it…was last year’s PNKF in fact.

So, in gyaku-nito, I would tend to believe that you could try to attack the leading kote, migi-men, or hidari-kote-semete-hidari men.

In tadashii-nito, I had some luck pressing along the line by moving to my left. You can do a migi-kote-semete-migi men. If you move along the line enough, the leading hidari-kote may also be open.

Of course, the nito guy could just do double-jodan…but then, you can always tai-atari him to break his kamae.

Another trick that worked for me was shadow-kote-men. When the guy is in double-jodan, do a regular-two-handed kote men as if the guy is in itto-chudan. The kote-uchi against air makes the guy flinch enough for the men to be open…but this trick only works once though! (For you reference buffs, where did I borrow this technique from? What was it originally designed to work against?)

Besides, at some level, I thought we were suppose to make the guy move before we attack them anyway?

FWIW ^_^

[crabbi]

Thanks as always for the info Kaoru-san....

I think that in the National Geographic (?) documentary about the Hachi-Dan exams there is one person using Nitto in one of the exam stages... I might be wrong...

crabbi

[kensin]

Two more things u may like to mind.

If u r really determined to fight well aginst a Nitou kenshi one day in shiai and don't let them gain any unfair advantage, (though urself may not want to become a Nitou kenshi), a good way is to pratice nito urself, if ur sensei is willing to teach u that (u got to be lucky), or a sensei from a nearby dojo is willing to teach u.

Nitoukas has (usually) a lot of advantage in shiai against u if u happens to be a chudan lover. (They go through the pain to practice that difficult style to gain this advantage of course, this deserves at least some respect. )

The thing really matters, I humbly presume, is not that they have two shinai while u only got 1. No, not really.

The crux of their magic is that, they know ur chudan better than u know their nito, which is a way of combining chudan and jodan and incorproates flexiblity(like Gendzwill san) correctly said about nitoka's left hand).

They understand ur timing and distance better. U understand much less.

So u have to figure something out to counterbalance their advantage against u, by either take away their familarity on timing or their familarity on distance control.

So in a nut shell, it is not than the number of weapons that matters, it is timing and distance that matters.

Second thing still, I think to myself the main reason I often lost in shiai(many times) to nitokas before is really that, because I know nothing about their style every attack they were launch against me is a surprise.

Surprise almost always works in any combat, because by definition it is out of ur anticipation. Even owrth, if one is not too much mentally undisciplined like kensin, this will give rise to confusion and deterrence effect on oneself.

So u have to learn to fight and do nito urself to eventually go against nitokas.

P.S. Please don't mistaken me by saying u can learn about that from a book. Maybe u really could. Better to have ur sensei trach u about it and practice under supervision.

[kensin]

Well said DCPan,

clear reasoning.

Me was never a jodan lover. 98% percent of times I stick to chudan waza as that's still my favorite. Only when I do keiko with sensei, I try a bit jodan.

Hem... I am not even sure if I should start this speech. Because what I said may give rise to misleading incentives.

But anyway, just for everyone's reference. looking forward to critics.

Why a kendoka may ever consider to do jodan?

1. In kyu shiai, it is very difficult to get points with tsuki and doh, much more difficult than men and kote. So ur jodan is safe though in shiai relatively speaking. And u gain advantage in a sense that u can just focus on one strike with zanshin. U strike take shorter time than chudanka.

I know this piece will welcome a lot of critics probably.

2. Practice jodan help u to understand distance and timing better. It helps u to understand chudan. Know some elderly kenshi go from chudan to jodan and eventually return to chudan. It starts from where it ends, but on ur journey u do soemthing different to better understand the start and the ending.








I don't think using Jodan against nito is really that different than fighting someone using katate-jodan or ai-jodan.... So he has an extra-stick...you have more reach.

Nor did I see the visiting sensei abandon his Jodan against the various weird kamaes his opponents took....

[kensin]

After I finished my few lines, I immediately realized that my careless words will for sure welcome some well structured critics.

Just did not expect them so soon.

Thank u for ur careful reading of my lines.

Doesn't work well against a good nito player unless you've got good jodan, and maybe not even then. If you're normally a chudan player, forget it.
Again, good nito players - likely in better shape than you. Have to be.
Yeah, nothing to worry about - until you forget the maai and find your shinai tied up by the shoto and your men wide open.
Except that because his arms move independantly, he has more freedom to avoid your strike than a chudan player. Which makes the very inviting kote good bait. While you're missing kote, he's hitting men.
All I can say is, just wait until you finally get a chance to meet someone who knows what they're doing. There's a lot of nito shmoes out there that some of this stuff may work on - but the good ones will give you a whole lot of trouble.

[JSchmidt]

Hi Batman :wink: ,

I’m glad you didn’t take any offense to what I said, as I believe you are a jodan kenshi.
[/QOUTE]

A mediocre one at that, but no offense taken :). (Although the jodan is on vacation due to upcoming grading)

[QOUTE]
Besides, at some level, I thought we were suppose to make the guy move before we attack them anyway?

FWIW ^_^
True enough D , but in order to make anyone move, you need to apply pressue..and if the only targets you can put pressure on are tsuki and do, it gets a little tricky!.
Granted, if I were to fight someone at my own level, it might be a different situation.

Jakob

[crabbi]

...Just read through this thread again... head spinning... only understood half of it... but extremely interesting!

Learning all the time!!!

crabbi

[kensin]

Forgive me to be a bit fuzzy, Gendzwill san.

No technique will really ever work against a really good kenshi. Because by definition, he is really good. Unless one is better than good.

Sorry for being fuzzy. :)


Doesn't work well against a good nito player unless you've got good jodan, and maybe not even then. If you're normally a chudan player, forget it.
Again, good nito players - likely in better shape than you. Have to be.
Yeah, nothing to worry about - until you forget the maai and find your shinai tied up by the shoto and your men wide open.
Except that because his arms move independantly, he has more freedom to avoid your strike than a chudan player. Which makes the very inviting kote good bait. While you're missing kote, he's hitting men.
All I can say is, just wait until you finally get a chance to meet someone who knows what they're doing. There's a lot of nito shmoes out there that some of this stuff may work on - but the good ones will give you a whole lot of trouble.

[crabbi]

Today I attended (as a spectator) the Mumeishi 3's Kendo Tournament in Hounslow UK...

This was my first Kendo event and I found it amazingly impressive!!!

What an atmosphere!!! There were teams from all over Europe... Italy, France, Ireland and several from Poland to name a few...

Anyway... that aside, there were 2 Kendoka using Nitto. One was from Poland and the other was one of my Teachers in the UK.

What was most noticeable in their matches against Itto Kendoka was that it was obvious that they were regarded as unusual (no surprises there!!) and it really messed up the Itto Kendoka's sense of Ma'ai (if thisis the right term for correct distance...).

When I talked to my teacher about this he said taht the Nitto player has a much shorter fighting distance (He uses a 36 long shinai as opposed to his usual 39), which is an added consideration to the scissor-like moves that can be used to trap / block / parry the opponents Itto techniques...

Although I would dearly love to try Nitto techniques I can now see that it is a very long way off for me... but it was still a great thing to watch...

...and one of our teams got through to the quarter-finals which was great too!!!

What an excellent day!!!

crabbi

[Mr.Tvola]

He uses a 36 long shinai as opposed to his usual 39

Actualy it is 37, I think...

[Paburo]

Actualy it is 37, I think...

yes, its a 37. which makes it 5-6cms shorter than a regular male 39 shinai... BUT, whenever you hold shinai katate, you will have a longer reach, so... (this is an open question)

is the reach really THAT different for an ittou kenshi than for a nitou? (granted, if the foot forward is the same as the hand holding the daitou there's even more reach, and obviously, it also depends on how close to the tsuba you grab the tsuka)

btw, do you practice jodan, DCPan?

[crabbi]

Sorry guys... he uses a 36... I asked him and he showed me...

cheers

crabbi

[Paburo]

umm why use 36 if you can use a longer reach 37 for about the same weight?

[KhawMengLee]

Today I attended (as a spectator) the Mumeishi 3's Kendo Tournament in Hounslow UK...

This was my first Kendo event and I found it amazingly impressive!!!

What an atmosphere!!! There were teams from all over Europe... Italy, France, Ireland and several from Poland to name a few...

Anyway... that aside, there were 2 Kendoka using Nitto. One was from Poland and the other was one of my Teachers in the UK.

What was most noticeable in their matches against Itto Kendoka was that it was obvious that they were regarded as unusual (no surprises there!!) and it really messed up the Itto Kendoka's sense of Ma'ai (if thisis the right term for correct distance...).

When I talked to my teacher about this he said taht the Nitto player has a much shorter fighting distance (He uses a 36 long shinai as opposed to his usual 39), which is an added consideration to the scissor-like moves that can be used to trap / block / parry the opponents Itto techniques...

Although I would dearly love to try Nitto techniques I can now see that it is a very long way off for me... but it was still a great thing to watch...



A lot of people who fight against Nito pay too much attention to the shoto(short one) and not the daito. In chudan vs chudan most kote hits can be struck as soon as the shinai tips touch and men cuts can be achieved as soon as the tips cross.

In nito can strike a men or kote (depending on the opponent) 6inches to a foot away from our shinai tips. Most inexperienced chudan players wait for the shinai tips to touch as a judgement of maai. Fighting against nito try to watch more the reach of the daito and also the fact that the kote arm with the shoto is a valid target.

[Old Warrior]

A lot of people who fight against Nito pay too much attention to the shoto(short one) and not the daito. In chudan vs chudan most kote hits can be struck as soon as the shinai tips touch and men cuts can be achieved as soon as the tips cross.

In nito can strike a men or kote (depending on the opponent) 6inches to a foot away from our shinai tips. Most inexperienced chudan players wait for the shinai tips to touch as a judgement of maai. Fighting against nito try to watch more the reach of the daito and also the fact that the kote arm with the shoto is a valid target.
Excellent advice. Distance must be judged between the bodies of the opponents, not the sword tips. I always start out with the shoto arm extended and then, I inch in, taking up the distance with the bend in my elbow, keeping the sword tip distance the same. Once I get to the point where I can hit men without having to move my feet, the opponent is usually toast. Even my slow old hands are faster than most people imagine. The distance is also confusing, because with only 1 hand on the sword, at the far end of the tsuka, the effective striking distance is substantially farther than most people expect. Lastly, it is very hard to score an attack of the first intention against nito because the extra distance makes it easier to see the attack setting up. So, the nito kenshi needs to be distracted with a multiple attack or you need to get to tsubzerai where any nito advantage is neutralized.

[crabbi]

Thanks KhawMengLee + Old Warrior... excellent insight... much appreciated!


crabbi

[D'Artagnan]

...the other was one of my Teachers in the UK.

...and one of our teams got through to the quarter-finals which was great too!!!



Do you mean the guy who was in white hakama & keikogi from Bushi Budo Kai??

If so, he was an excellent Nito player !

I very much enjoyed my match with him, it tought me loads, as I had never fenced somebody (especially in a taikai) who is clearly well schooled in Nito!!!

As for tactics vs. Nito, personally I prefer not to have any particular tactics, just as with any other fence vs. a chudan or jyodan player. The best you can do is go out and deal with what is presented to you, when I try and get too technical it just messes up my fencing. Just try and achieve datotsu, thats all you can do.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth...

[crabbi]

Hi D'Artagnan... yes that's him!!!

In that case I must have seen you fight him... all his matches were against excellent opponents so that must include you!!!

Thanks for the comments ... I'll let him know on Saturday when I see him next...

cheers

crabbi

[D'Artagnan]

In that case I must have seen you fight him...



I was the guy with the half blue dou (Doshinkenyukai no.2).

We had a really wicked long fence!! best fun I've had in ages!

[Hokushin]

Actualy it is 37, I think...Hi all

According to the All Japan Kendo Federation’s regulation, nitto fighters are only allowed to use daito within the length of 114cm. it means that 36 or 37, may be 34 too??

The reason why I use 36 shinai in nitto is that there is not big reason. Simply my friend gave me 4 free 36 shinais. I also have 1 37 shinai.

In my opinion, I feel no difference between 36 and 37 in terms of Ma-a-i. Sometime I use it during keiko.Namamura sensei (musashi-kai) also say to me “whichever you like”


Anyway, I really enjoyed taking part in the mumeishi championship. After I had very bad injury with my knee and back (hernia), I thought I never ever take part in Shiai as well as doing kendo. I took up nitto, and then Now I am just so pleased that I could take part in the championship.

Thank you very much D'Artagnan- san, it was nice to meet you and I very enjoyed fencing with you, see you again let do a return match without voting!!


Crabbi-san Thank you very very much for taking the other people to home!! See you on Saturday,

[crabbi]

My pleasure Hokushin-San!!!

See you on Saturday!

crabbi

[moocow65]

Hi all

According to the All Japan Kendo Federation’s regulation, nitto fighters are only allowed to use daito within the length of 114cm. it means that 36 or 37, may be 34 too??

The reason why I use 36 shinai in nitto is that there is not big reason. Simply my friend gave me 4 free 36 shinais. I also have 1 37 shinai.

In my opinion, I feel no difference between 36 and 37 in terms of Ma-a-i. Sometime I use it during keiko.Namamura sensei (musashi-kai) also say to me “whichever you like”
The daito has to weigh at least 440 grams, which is the weight for the standard male 37 shinai, and I believe it can only be 114cm. Nothing longer and nothing shorter. The rules changed in between tournaments for me, and the 37 I used at the first tournament, did not meet the weight requirements at the second tournament because the weight increased from 420 or something like that to 440. So I am pretty sure that only the 37 shinai may be used.

[Hokushin]

The daito has to weigh at least 440 grams, which is the weight for the standard male 37 shinai, and I believe it can only be 114cm. Nothing longer and nothing shorter. The rules changed in between tournaments for me, and the 37 I used at the first tournament, did not meet the weight requirements at the second tournament because the weight increased from 420 or something like that to 440. So I am pretty sure that only the 37 shinai may be used.Hi moocow65,

Good point!! As you mention about the weight, the rule of the weight has been changed from 420 to 440g few years ago. Thickness also has been changed. Therefore, most of 37 shiai should meet the rule in official tournaments. some of my friend cut up 39 to make the shinai to keep heavy weight.

However, my 37 does not meet this standard (only 430g) on the other hand, my 36 (460g).
In the future, like Toda-sansei (when I met Toda-sensei, he told me that he uses 600g datio) I would like to be able to use such a heavy shinai.

Regarding the length of daito, the rule is still same. here is AJKF rule (Japanese); it says 114cm i na i
http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/rule/rule_hyou.html (http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/rule/rule_hyou.html)

Although I mentioned about general rule of nitto in Japan, unfortunately, there are still many problems with attitude of Kendo people toward Nitto. for instnace, one of my friends who is nitto fighter could pass the check of the weight despite only 425g, on the other hand, another friend who live in a different region could not pass it (this is correnct). many people do not know about the rule of nitto.


How is attitude toward Nitto in USA ?

[Hokushin]

[QUOTE=Hokushin]Hi moocow65,

Good point!! As you mention about the weight, the rule of the weight has been changed from 420 to 440g few years ago.


sorry from over 440g

[DCPan]

btw, do you practice jodan, DCPan?

Tried it a couple of times.

Sometimes, during long practices, my left leg would give out. So, when that happens, I would do jodan because I can't fumikomi from chudan anymore.

I have used jodan in one tournament in Taiwan as well.

But really, I dabble in Jodan at best. Need to develop better te-no-uchi before I can really "practice" jodan.

Why do you ask?

[moocow65]

How is attitude toward Nitto in USA ?

Some sensei like it, some hate it, and ALOT have no clue how to judge it. But it is getting better.

[misterkurukuru]

David,
give up the jodan and start doing the kuru kuru kendo...minus all the pointing and smiling at the other person during tsubazeriai.

[misterkurukuru]

sorry about the repost my editing time ran out due to my bowl of fruity pebbles calling me from the kitchen..oh and Happy Thanksgiving!

David,
give up the jodan and start doing the kuru kuru side...minus all the pointing and smiling at the other person through the men gane during tsubazeriai and getting a billion hansoku for taunting. :smoker:

oh and i beat moocow at the last covina dojo shiai with a kote to the finger nails;therefore i am the best!!!! people like nito, but they dont know how to judge it, and i find that chudan people who dont are close minded hate it. Most Sensei hold the nito players up to expectations that even they themselvs can not match( with kikentai ichi, zanshin, and basic kendo in general).

[DCPan]

give up the jodan and start doing the kuru kuru side...minus all the pointing and smiling at the other person through the men gane during tsubazeriai and getting a billion hansoku for taunting. :smoker:
.

Hmm...sounds like J. Murosako-Ha Mugen Ryu....when opponent kiai at the beginning of the match...point and laugh.... :confused2 :evolved:

:rolleyes:

[crabbi]

Hey Misterkurukuru... like your Avatar!!!

"Stewie for Emperor of this Planet!!!"
crabbi