Starting a new style

[Onitora]

A friend of mine moved to Japan a few years ago to study Kage-ryu. he tells me he wants to one day propagate his own ryu with Kage-ryu as an antecedenet. what do you all think of this. by the way, he is not of japanese descent.

[nodachi]

Trouble ahead... me thinks...

Not of Japanese descent is not the issue... something is not more legitimate or good because it is Japanese or not... it is the studying of something that has been tested and refined and has tradition and history and such built into it that make something really interesting and worth learning... randomly making something up, even if it is based on something else nowadays doesn't quite work as it is rare to get into a modern sword fight so the relevance or usefullness or tradition just ain't there... unless you are seeking youtube fame... :)

<now ducking my head in my trench before the storm arrives>

[pgsmith]

A friend of mine moved to Japan a few years ago to study Kage-ryu.
Did he? I wasn't aware of any non-Japanese other than Colin Watkin sensei that were studying Kage ryu, and he is now retired. How long did you say he has been with the ryu? Does the soke know that he is not planning on propogating the ryu?

[Are2]

Well, if he manages to make something of it, good for him. Yeah, it might be extremely pointless, but as long as he'll be honest about the backgrounds and such there I don't really see a huge problem. Kage-ryu's head honcho might, though, if that's what he's really studying. I hope he's being honest with him, too.

However, it won't be koryu and it won't be kobudo (I'm not sure if I'd even call it budo).

[Abramo]

Cool, I also have my own RPG setting spin-off! Will his katanas deal d10 or d12 damage?

[Fred27]

A friend of mine moved to Japan a few years ago to study Kage-ryu. he tells me he wants to one day propagate his own ryu with Kage-ryu as an antecedenet. what do you all think of this. by the way, he is not of japanese descent.


<rolleyes> (http://smiliesftw.com/x/glock836_roll_eyes.gif)

[Wesley Myers]

Cool, I also have my own RPG setting spin-off! Will his katanas deal d10 or d12 damage?

My shinai only does d4 damage, bokken is d6 but I'm planning on getting another katana that will do d20!

[nodachi]

Cool, I also have my own RPG setting spin-off! Will his katanas deal d10 or d12 damage?

It could be like the bastard sword thing.... one handed the katana could do the d10 but two handed could be the d20...

<ducking back into my trench with my dorkiness>

[rjhartu]

Does he hold a Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent, then no problems?

[pgsmith]

Does he hold a Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent, then no problems?
Watkins sensei has been studying Kage ryu for decades and, as far as I know, was not granted menkyo kaiden. In fact, I don't think that the Kage ryu issues menkyo at all.

Personally, I think somebody in this mix is dreaming ..... :D


Will his katanas deal d10 or d12 damage?
Have you ever seen the size of swords they use in the Kage ryu? Those puppies would be good for a d20 for sure! ... http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html

[ScottUK]

I will drop CGW an email, but I am fairly sure there is no rank at all in Kage-ryu.
Personally, I think somebody in this mix is dreaming ..... :DI think you might be right.

[ScottUK]

Sorry about the double post, but Onitora - you practice kendo, naginata, Nami-ryu battojutsu and koryu (and you plan to travel around the US and Japan for other arts to practice) - and now your 'friend' is going to get the DNA of Kage-ryu and splice it with something else he has made up.

Can you tell me a little more about your current practice? Location, groups, rank etc? I am specifically interested in your kendo and naginata practice. You say you don't have anyone to do isshu-jiai with. Do you practice kendo and/or naginata on your own then?

[Abramo]

According to what I read around the web, the Kage-ryu of the Tachibana fief (http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage1.html) only has two "ranks": kaiin (member) and shihan (teacher?). Watkin sensei seems to be acting as shihan for some time now, even though without a menkyo kaiden...

Anyway, this is a very small ryu, and I think there is a much larger and more popular Kage-ryu in Japan. I'd bet that's the one referred here.

Also, and much more importantly: it's bad to set a weapon do deal 1d20 damage. It's better to start increasing the number of dice after the d12, so 2d10, 2d6 etc. I'd say a Kage-ryu choken should yield 3d6 damage, but of course you'd need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat (if we're talking D&D 3, 3.5) else you'd incur in a penalty of -4 on attack rolls and damage for using such a cumbersome weapon untrained.

Geek out.

[Hyaku]

Must be another Kageryu. Or an offshoot of someone that dabbled in the ryu for time. Wonder what the kanji is?

The last teacher was reffered to as "Shihan'. I have menkyo kaiden issued by the Todo Renmei in association of the ryu being a member of it. What a select few of us do have is literature of the waza handed down froma shihan in tyhe early 1700's It must have been the hardest ryu I have ever been given permission to practice. Two interviews, a guarantor and a practical test before they would even consider me.

[bullet08]

see.. since my right shoulder problem, i have been working on other options, and i realized that chopstick is a great weapon on dead animals. i can pick them up and all after they have been cooked properly. i think i'll be the first soke of waribashi ryu. it's amazing how much tenouchi is needed when properly picking up a piece of meat.

pete

[pgsmith]

Two interviews, a guarantor and a practical test before they would even consider me.
I remember you mentioning that their entry requirements were pretty stiff, which is why I didn't think that the original poster was there. I had not heard of any other group currently doing Kage ryu in Japan. I too would be interested in seeing the kanji.

Thanks for the input Hyaku!

[Jonathan]

Nothing wrong with it, do whatever makes you guys happy. As others have said, as long as the guy is honest about his background no issues whatsoever. It is when someone either embellishes their previous training or uses deceptive language to make what they did seem more important that it becomes trouble.

[Jonathan]

Sorry about the double post, but Onitora - you practice kendo, naginata, Nami-ryu battojutsu and ...

I glossed over the part where the guy said he did Nami Ryu. I did that for something like two and a half years and hit a few of the PA seminars.
Are you one of Mike Bray Sensei's students?

[Hyaku]

To start a new style/waza you would have to kill/injure people to find out if it worked!

[xvikingx]

Must be another Kageryu. Or an offshoot of someone that dabbled in the ryu for time. Wonder what the kanji is?
There is another Kage-ryu (影流) I have seen that is very questionable. I think they were based in Fukuoka but I could be mistaken (I don’t have the program handy).

[rjhartu]

To start a new style/waza you would have to kill/injure people to find out if it worked!


I think history might disagree with you.

[ScottUK]

You're gonna need to elaborate on that a bit...

[Josh Reyer]

You're gonna need to elaborate on that a bit...The veritable plethora of styles that were created in the Pax Tokugawa?

[pgsmith]

The veritable plethora of styles that were created in the Pax Tokugawa?
While there were very few wars during the Tokugawa shogunate, swords were still used the way they mostly always had been. If anything, I would put forth that they were probably used more during the Tokugawa reign because of the great number of under-employed samurai that were wandering around. We can't lose sight of the fact that the Japanese sword was primarily a dueling weapon and sidearm, not a primary weapon or war.

[Josh Reyer]

While there were very few wars during the Tokugawa shogunate, swords were still used the way they mostly always had been. If anything, I would put forth that they were probably used more during the Tokugawa reign because of the great number of under-employed samurai that were wandering around. We can't lose sight of the fact that the Japanese sword was primarily a dueling weapon and sidearm, not a primary weapon or war.This makes sense only if one believes in the Zatoichi/Sanjuro theory of Japanese history. The Edo period was not some lawless, Wild West frontier filled with bandits, bad-guys, and plenty of opportunity to duel. 90% of police officers in the permissive, high crime United States go their whole careers without firing their weapon. Edo period samurai were bureaucrats, not police officers, and laws and punishments were a heck of a lot stricter than in the modern U.S. For one, there's no self-defense or justifiable homicide. It was kenka ryouseibai -- in the event of an altercation all participants are punished equally. Add to this ryuuzai: your family is punished for the crime you committed. Add to this the obsessive record keeping of the Tokugawa period. Samurai weren't under-employed -- they were 10% of the population and did 100% of the administration work! This extended peace and totalitarian law enforcement were the primary reason why shiai with shinai became so popular in the Edo period. There was really no other way to "test your skill".

So, personally, I highly doubt that many of the many men in the Edo period who started their own styles had to "kill/injure people" as Hyaku suggests. They started them much like men of the post-Meiji era have started theirs: based on their understanding from studying one or more ryuha, and/or experience in non-lethal matches using shinai or bokuto.

[rjhartu]

You're gonna need to elaborate on that a bit...

Aikido, Judo, the beginning of shaolin Kung Fu I'll give you names of other people that haven't had to kill or injure people to create a new martial art later when I can give you page numbers and make sure I'm not confusing them.

Unless you think you injure people doing kendo and judo or injuries are in the same lines as killing.

[C.Redgate]

This makes sense only if one believes in the Zatoichi/Sanjuro theory of Japanese history. The Edo period was not some lawless, Wild West frontier filled with bandits, bad-guys, and plenty of opportunity to duel. 90% of police officers in the permissive, high crime United States go their whole careers without firing their weapon. Edo period samurai were bureaucrats, not police officers, and laws and punishments were a heck of a lot stricter than in the modern U.S. For one, there's no self-defense or justifiable homicide. It was kenka ryouseibai -- in the event of an altercation all participants are punished equally. Add to this ryuuzai: your family is punished for the crime you committed. Add to this the obsessive record keeping of the Tokugawa period. Samurai weren't under-employed -- they were 10% of the population and did 100% of the administration work! This extended peace and totalitarian law enforcement were the primary reason why shiai with shinai became so popular in the Edo period. There was really no other way to "test your skill".

So, personally, I highly doubt that many of the many men in the Edo period who started their own styles had to "kill/injure people" as Hyaku suggests. They started them much like men of the post-Meiji era have started theirs: based on their understanding from studying one or more ryuha, and/or experience in non-lethal matches using shinai or bokuto.

I would agree with you with the exception that toward the end of the Tokugawa period, many samurai were in fact unemployed or underemployed... look at what happened to Kyoto, (and, to some extent, Edo,) just before the Boshin War, it was a hotbed of angry, unemployed ronin basically wreaking havoc. There were frequent sword fights in the streets, and political assassination was common practice. Also, AFAIK, those holding samurai status always had the right of kirisute gomen to cut down those of lower status with little fear of reprecussions from the law, (I'm not suggesting this was something that happened with great frequency during the Edo period, but the threat was always there,) though kenka ryouseibai was the rule among equals, it offered little protection for those of non-Bushi status...
Or so I have learned... I certainly could be wrong.

[C.Redgate]

(Sorry to double post... Edit not working etc etc)

Just wanted to add that I would tend to agree with Hyakutake Sensei that to test REAL combat efficacy, one must engage in REAL combat... as I understand it, that is a point often brought up by those who question the efficacy of schools of bujutsu founded during the relatively peaceful Tokugawa period.

...Just the two cents of one who knows fairly little....

[Rennis]

This makes sense only if one believes in the Zatoichi/Sanjuro theory of Japanese history. The Edo period was not some lawless, Wild West frontier filled with bandits, bad-guys, and plenty of opportunity to duel.

While I very much agree with you in spirit, many Edo period researchers in Japan do disagree to some degree on just how peaceful Edo as a city was. Due to sankin kotai and other issues it has been stated that for much of the Edo period, the city itself was between 70% to 80% male in population and that it was by most accounts a fairly rowdy place (especially in the first and last thirds of the Edo period). I think the overall trend of Edo period swordsmanship shifting towards suhada-kenpo and more dueling like situations is evidence that there was enough potential for one to face such a situation that focus on it was deemed desirable if not necessary. The eventual Edo period trend in developing and eventual explosion of jujutsu based ryuha might also reflect that "rowdiness" to a certain degree in more non-lethal direction. In the writings of our own ryu there is a fairly in depth section on the proper way to go about doing musha shugyo, specifically to avoid such "issues from developing" as well as ways to conduct any number of daily life activites to lessen the chances and impact of surprise attacks. With that said, I agree that it was by no means the Zatoichi/Yojimbo lifestyle with tons of dueling and hidden ninja villages either.

Rennis Buchner

[Josh Reyer]

Also, AFAIK, those holding samurai status always had the right of kirisute gomen to cut down those of lower status with little fear of reprecussions from the law, (I'm not suggesting this was something that happened with great frequency during the Edo period, but the threat was always there,) though kenka ryouseibai was the rule among equals, it offered little protection for those of non-Bushi status...
Or so I have learned... I certainly could be wrong.
Kirisute-gomen is a fine example of what I'm talking about. People imagine some samurai and peasant bumping into each other, and then the imperious samurai cuts down the poor peasant and continues on his way. It never happened.

A samurai who did burei-uchi was required to immediately go to the local authorities and report his action in writing. His sword would then be confiscated as evidence. He would be under house arrest for at least 20 days while the matter was investigated. He required one witness to attest that the matter was grave enough to merit burei-uchi. If he did not fulfill the above conditions, he was beheaded. He was not given the honorable execution of seppuku, but beheaded as a criminal. His property would be confiscated and his family would lose buke status. Even if he did fulfill all the conditions, if the investigation found that burei-uchi was not warranted (because the samurai instigated the altercation, or because it was felt the offense could have been beared, etc), he still faced punishment ranging from demotion from rank, to stripping of buke status, to being ordered to commit seppuku.

If the samurai drew his sword for burei-uchi, but his intended target escaped, he could be charged and punished for needlessly drawing his sword and causing a disturbance. Further, the commoner in question had an absolute right of self-defence, and if he in turn killed the samurai he would not be punished. And in the event that the burei-uchi was successful, and found justified, there was even a chance that the samurai in question would find himself in hot water with the domain in which it happened, and while he might not be punished, there would be non-legal repercussions.

As a result, there are very, very few, if any, records of samurai using the kirisute-gomen. Rather, you have, as Rennis points out, domains and ryuha urging their samurai to not let themselves get involved in any kind of trouble. This was how tight and ordered Edo period society was.

[C.Redgate]

Kirisute-gomen is a fine example of what I'm talking about. People imagine some samurai and peasant bumping into each other, and then the imperious samurai cuts down the poor peasant and continues on his way. It never happened.

A samurai who did burei-uchi was required to immediately go to the local authorities and report his action in writing. His sword would then be confiscated as evidence. He would be under house arrest for at least 20 days while the matter was investigated. He required one witness to attest that the matter was grave enough to merit burei-uchi. If he did not fulfill the above conditions, he was beheaded. He was not given the honorable execution of seppuku, but beheaded as a criminal. His property would be confiscated and his family would lose buke status. Even if he did fulfill all the conditions, if the investigation found that burei-uchi was not warranted (because the samurai instigated the altercation, or because it was felt the offense could have been beared, etc), he still faced punishment ranging from demotion from rank, to stripping of buke status, to being ordered to commit seppuku.

If the samurai drew his sword for burei-uchi, but his intended target escaped, he could be charged and punished for needlessly drawing his sword and causing a disturbance. Further, the commoner in question had an absolute right of self-defence, and if he in turn killed the samurai he would not be punished. And in the event that the burei-uchi was successful, and found justified, there was even a chance that the samurai in question would find himself in hot water with the domain in which it happened, and while he might not be punished, there would be non-legal repercussions.

As a result, there are very, very few, if any, records of samurai using the kirisute-gomen. Rather, you have, as Rennis points out, domains and ryuha urging their samurai to not let themselves get involved in any kind of trouble. This was how tight and ordered Edo period society was.

Interesting. Thanks for the information! I was aware that the Tokugawa Bakufu, (as well as the domainal governments,) were quite meticulous in their record keeping. Alas, my ability to read Japanese is still not good enough to read anything not translated into english or written by western scholars. Strange how different reality sometimes was as compared to the picture we in the west sometimes have of feudal Japanese society.

[Josh Reyer]

Strange how different reality sometimes was as compared to the picture we in the west sometimes have of feudal Japanese society.Oh, the more I've studied Japanese history, the more I've found that everything I thought I knew was wrong, or at least requiring heavy qualification.

For example, the four castes: Samurai-Farmer-Artisan-Merchant. As a matter of fact, these weren't strict castes at all. Farmers could engage in craftsmanship or mercantile. Anybody could farm (the Bakufu liked people farming). Merchants and Artisans were less distinct castes than just different categories of townspeople. There was a lot of fluidity in the system, particularly as the Edo period went on. While the upper levels of bushi rank were pretty much closed off, farmers or merchants, etc, could reach the lower levels of bushi class via marriage or special dispensation.

I long thought that only the samurai were allowed to wear the daisho. And certainly, that was a distinction their class had. But wealthy and influential farmers, merchants, and craftsmen, even actors, could carry short swords and even earn the "myoji-taito" (right to a last name and carrying a katana) and the kirisute-gomen. They wouldn't be considered official "bushi", but they could still earn many of the special rights of the buke class.

Further, while they might not be recognized by the Bakufu as applying all over Japan, the lower classes could receive various dispensations, such as last names, swords, etc, at a local domain level.

[pgsmith]

This makes sense only if one believes in the Zatoichi/Sanjuro theory of Japanese history.
I know a lot more about life than to believe that movies are real, and I know quite a bit about Japanese history thank you very much. The lawless abandon of samurai movies is no more real than the lawless abandon of cowboy movies. However, to believe that life was all accounted for and everything was recorded in public records is just as silly as believing in Zatoichi. The reign of the Tokugawas lasted 265 years, and there was quite a bit of variance in the life of all the people, not just the samurai, depending upon what part of the country they were in, and when they were living.

To attempt to throw your single blanket over all of it is hubris in the extreme.

[ScottUK]

Are you telling me that there is no unmarked grave next to the one marked Arch Stanton?

[Josh Reyer]

I know a lot more about life than to believe that movies are real, and I know quite a bit about Japanese history thank you very much. The lawless abandon of samurai movies is no more real than the lawless abandon of cowboy movies. However, to believe that life was all accounted for and everything was recorded in public records is just as silly as believing in Zatoichi. The reign of the Tokugawas lasted 265 years, and there was quite a bit of variance in the life of all the people, not just the samurai, depending upon what part of the country they were in, and when they were living.

To attempt to throw your single blanket over all of it is hubris in the extreme.None of that addresses a single point I made. I never suggested that everything was recorded in the public records. What I did suggest was that the strict laws, bureaucracy, and control over public life characteristic of the Edo period make it highly unlikely that that swords were used in actual fights more in that period than in the 260-some years of the Sengoku period. And it is also highly unlikely that many of the founders of the multitude of ryuha that sprung up in the Edo period had the opportunity to base their newly formed ryuha on their own combat experiences with a real sword. The records may not cover everything, but surely that would show up.

Look at sword history. In the Kamakura period you have the finest of the Japanese swords made, both functional and beautiful. In the Muromachi period you have a lot of low-grade mass-produced swords. In the Edo period you have swords not at the level of the Kamakura period, because the skills to make those swords had been abandoned for techniques of mass-production, and the trend to more and more ornamentation and consideration of aesthetics -- the sword as a status symbol and piece of art. That is hardly consistent with the idea that the sword was actually used in combat more in the Edo period than the Sengoku period.

It is true that the Edo period is when the sword became thought of as the primary weapon of the samurai, instead of the bow and naginata of the Heian and Kamakura periods and the spears of the Sengoku periods. But that by no means means that swords were used in combat more in the period of sustained peace (and totalitarian rule) than in those times of unrest. The sword was trained more in the Edo Period, but I do not believe it was actually used more than in those times of war, due to A) no wars, and B) strict laws prohibiting dueling and vendettas.

Now, the Bakumatsu period has been brought up, and fair point, there was a lot more sword action and some ryu founders probably used that experience to form their schools. But of course, that period would perforce fall outside my original suggestion of the Pax Tokugawa.

Finally, you seem to have taken my Zatoichi comment quite personally, and for that I am sorry. I do find your argument highly unlikely, one might say, uh, ridiculous. And my comments were meant to address that argument. But I have always enjoyed your posts, and would welcome discussion and the opportunity to be persuaded. The problem is, you've provided no support for your side, other than to say not everything was accounted for in the records (which I never said it was) and that there was a lot of variance in the lives of the people (which was pretty much the thrust of my post immediately preceding yours), neither of which address the issue of evidence that swords saw more use in combat in the Pax Tokugawa than in the Sengoku period, to the degree that hundreds of kenjutsu ryuha sprung up based on those combat experiences, in comparison to the relatively few that came out of the Sengoku period.

[pgsmith]

What I did suggest was that the strict laws, bureaucracy, and control over public life characteristic of the Edo period make it highly unlikely that that swords were used in actual fights more in that period than in the 260-some years of the Sengoku period.
That's not at all what you originally started out with. Your original statement was that the large number of sword styles that had their start in the Tokugawa era were formed without the benefit of the founders actually killing people. Colin sensei said that was the only way to know if a new style worked, and you refuted it stating ...
So, personally, I highly doubt that many of the many men in the Edo period who started their own styles had to "kill/injure people" as Hyaku suggests.
If you'll look at when the majority of existing Tokugawa era sword schools began, you'll find that most of them were started early on, in the early to mid 1600's. The reason so many schools began was because you suddenly had a great many under-employed samurai. The wars were over, and they needed gainful employ. Many of them established dojo and taught what they had learned in their own training, as well as things they had picked up during the Sengoku Jidai. Late in the Tokugawa era, in large cities such as Edo, many samurai had no idea how to use their swords. However, a great many of them did and, when you got outside of the urban centers, there were quite a number of opportunities for them to do so. Early in the Tokugawa era, there were so many duels that it caused the shogunate to devise the complex laws governing them to which you alluded in an earlier post.

In my mind, based upon what I have read of Japanese history, there would be more opportunity for sword duels in the Tokugawa era than during the Sengoku Jidai. When everyone is at war, there are more than enough outlets for aggression that were lacking during the Tokugawa reign. This was my reasoning for making the statement that I did. I seriously doubt that there's anything you can say to convince me that my outlook is incorrect, so I'll leave the historical arguing to those that are more interested in citations and page numbers than me.

[Onitora]

Sorry about the double post, but Onitora - you practice kendo, naginata, Nami-ryu battojutsu and koryu (and you plan to travel around the US and Japan for other arts to practice) - and now your 'friend' is going to get the DNA of Kage-ryu and splice it with something else he has made up.

Can you tell me a little more about your current practice? Location, groups, rank etc? I am specifically interested in your kendo and naginata practice. You say you don't have anyone to do isshu-jiai with. Do you practice kendo and/or naginata on your own then?

I do practice on my own using instrctional books and videos. however i do have a actual teacher when it comes to Nami-ryu

[ScottUK]

Sorry bud, but you need a partner (not to mention a sensei) to study kendo and/or atarashii naginata. Who do you hit if no-one practices with you? :rolleyes:

[Anonymous]

Sorry bud, but you need a partner (not to mention a sensei) to study kendo and/or atarashii naginata. Who do you hit if no-one practices with you? :rolleyes:

More importantly, who is beating the crap out of you for all those stupid mistakes you'll make? :p

[Rennis]

However, to believe that life was all accounted for and everything was recorded in public records is just as silly as believing in Zatoichi.


While obviously not "everything" was perfectly recorded, I think those who have not really studied Japanese history seriously in Japan often have a hard time understanding just how strongly the Tokugawa bakufu tried to "record everything" in an effort to maintain order and control. In terms of available land and usage, pretty much every inch of Japan had been clearly known and recorded several centuries before the Edo-period because in a rice based economy it was very much in the interest of the people running each specific area to know exactly how much they could grow and the resources (man power) available to grow it. It was also very much in the interest of the government to know the same information so they could know just how much to tax the local officials.

If anything the Edo period brought this kind of practice to even higher levels. Temples served the function of "city hall" in Japan today, and everyone was required to list pretty much every change in their family and life in general with the temple. The Edo period encouraged a culture where pretty much all areas of life were "over-seen". For example in the cities neighborhoods were broken down into areas over-seen by one person, whose area was broke down into smaller parts over-seen by more individuals, which was further broken down into even smaller groups of a few households who were all held responsible for keeping each other in line. More over all groups were highly encouraged to report any observed transgressions by other groups to their superiors, basically leading to a culture where everyone is watching what everyone else is doing. (Basically it's the well known Tokugawa policy of making every domain spy on each other brought down to the neighborhood level). While this example was given in the cities, the system pretty much was applied everywhere (I live in one of the most rural areas during the Edo period, and it was the same up here). Anyways, my point was not that the Tokugawa bakufu successfully recorded every single thing that happened during the Edo period, but rather that they very much made an attempt to, and were much more successful at it than many people realize.

None of this is to say that everything was properly recorded and no duel ever happened, as I very well know that even the city of Edo had a lot of problems with violence for a fair chunk of time in the early Edo period. The numerous proclamations against dueling issued by both the central government and the individual domains also serves as evidence that such events happened (on the other hand they also issued plenty of proclamations reminding the warrior class to actually keep practicing martial arts too, proof that lots of them were just "not interested"). However the idea that duels were very common, easy to come by and that most of the founders of Edo period ryuha had experience in killing people (and getting such experience was even easier than in the Sengoku period no less!) just doesn't fit for me. As was rightly pointed out, the founders of very early Edo period ryuha often did have some experience in actual battlefield combat (although I would argue as to how much as the last generation of Sengoku warriors who were of an age to survive into the Edo period and found ryuha were both very young then and in a period of relative calm with just a few shake ups to solidify things now and then. Battles were becoming few and far between compared to the rest of the Sengoku period), however the vast majority of Edo period ryuha were founded later by people who just weren't alive then (and the bulk of said ryu have not survived to us today either.)

While the claim that martial ryuha were created by under-employed warriors looking for work is often made (and sometimes true), the fact is that this was a culture were packing information into "traditions" was happening across the board and this packaging of the martial tradition was simply what everyone else was doing. Interestingly in the Edo period being a martial arts teacher was culturally considered a pretty crappy job and most avoided it if at all possible (for those interested, Dore's "Education in Tokugawa Japan" discusses this briefly in English). This comes as a surprise to many as we are used to the image of the "well respected and highly influential sword teacher", but the case seems to be that these people were very few and far between.

Anyways, the end result is that pretty much the majority of sources I come across in my studies in Japan (including my time in uni) have said that dueling was more of a problem at the very beginning and very end of the Edo period, but that for the bulk of it, it was not nearly as common as one would think and that every attempt was made life during the Edo period to strictly control just about every aspect of life.


Rennis

[Hyaku]

"You would have to kill or injure someone to create a new waza" are not my words. They were the response to a student asking Iwata Norikazu, Menkyo Kaiden x 2 MJER.

Waza is waza!

[Jonathan]

"You would have to kill or injure someone to create a new waza" are not my words. They were the response to a student asking Iwata Norikazu, Menkyo Kaiden x 2 MJER.

Waza is waza!

Once everyone who was present when the original guy(s) who killed whoever have died off, how do you differentiate old real stuff from new made up stuff? Or new real stuff from old made up stuff?

[Billy Bob]

Who decides when a new style is legitimate? In this time, how could the founder prove it's worth and credibility without inflicting serious injury?

[rjhartu]

Who decides when a new style is legitimate? In this time, how could the founder prove it's worth and credibility without inflicting serious injury?

How do you think new martial arts were created?

Consider those created before the Edo period and those created after.

Experience goes into the creation of a new style, it's not the inflicting of injury or killing others.

Bokuden created the Kashima shinto line of kenjutsu through his experiences and 1000 days holed up in Kashima jingu thinking and meditating on kenjutsu.

How many people do you think got killed off the battle field versus on the battle field when educating themselves about kenjutsu?

>>> Consider the following: I can know that this new poison can people people based on the knowledge of the human body and the nature of the poison without testing it or killing someone in the process. I can also be fairly certain of its properties and how quickly it might kill, without using it in a study. <<<

But, even with the above a blind study would be worth while to test it, however if you did test it many people would die as a result.

Jikeiko would be a means to test a new technique, (but I don't think there really is such a thing anymore - when you have only about 5 basic kamae in kenjutsu with varitions of those five. And only certain ways of moving the sword alone lines that can cut and off balance your aite, everything is based on the basic concepts that make up kendo and kenjutsu.) Any new kata or style would be (and would have to be) based on these basic concepts. It would only be stylistic differences and not anything fundamentally different.

The training methods of schools are what differ greatly and the focus on certain concepts over others seperate the styles... it has nothing to do with the amount of kills the resulted in the styles that leads to credibility. Duels were used to test schools as the power of the schools, where no one really died as a result. Sometimes people died but this has less to do with the technique and more to do with a possible mistake or accident by the person dealing with a certain technique.

Consider the following video clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn-p19C8MAQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hqYwZgNbDs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLNExI_uK4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jScJxtLdIBU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVuGDcggm44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1B0MBNqYwc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2YbZIEI5Gg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFjbxa6YsUc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWzdIpayeFk

There really aren't new kata but new variations of the same basic prinicples of kenjutsu. Everything else is stylized differences based on these principles. These principles work because they have helped killed people through wars using real swords. The kata are merely used to teach proper body movement and the use of these prinicples.

[rjhartu]

Sorry for the typos:-(

[Hyaku]

Once everyone who was present when the original guy(s) who killed whoever have died off, how do you differentiate old real stuff from new made up stuff? Or new real stuff from old made up stuff?

If you have practiced Kobudo in Japan for some year i dont think you would be asking this question. Of course a certain amount of variation come with each succeeding headmaster. We also know how previous headmasters interpreted certain things. We have to decide which interpretation we want to go with. tis does not alter the fundamentals of a waza. Specific fundamentals are they key to all waza withina ryu a found has handed down. The rule we have to observe is "without adaptation".

As a beginer we tend to throw in things we do know from perhaps another sword school/style because we are still not adept at what we are learning. Putting in 'your own stuff' simply shows a lack of understanding of the concept and philosophy of Budo. It's not a smart thing to do and is usually linked with some kind of financial gain. If you want to learn something new, learn something old!

[Hyaku]

How do you think new martial arts were created?

Consider those created before the Edo period and those created after.

Experience goes into the creation of a new style, it's not the inflicting of injury or killing others.

Bokuden created the Kashima shinto line of kenjutsu through his experiences and 1000 days holed up in Kashima jingu thinking and meditating on kenjutsu.

How many people do you think got killed off the battle field versus on the battle field when educating themselves about kenjutsu?

>>> Consider the following: I can know that this new poison can people people based on the knowledge of the human body and the nature of the poison without testing it or killing someone in the process. I can also be fairly certain of its properties and how quickly it might kill, without using it in a study. <<<

But, even with the above a blind study would be worth while to test it, however if you did test it many people would die as a result.

Jikeiko would be a means to test a new technique, (but I don't think there really is such a thing anymore - when you have only about 5 basic kamae in kenjutsu with varitions of those five. And only certain ways of moving the sword alone lines that can cut and off balance your aite, everything is based on the basic concepts that make up kendo and kenjutsu.) Any new kata or style would be (and would have to be) based on these basic concepts. It would only be stylistic differences and not anything fundamentally different.

The training methods of schools are what differ greatly and the focus on certain concepts over others seperate the styles... it has nothing to do with the amount of kills the resulted in the styles that leads to credibility. Duels were used to test schools as the power of the schools, where no one really died as a result. Sometimes people died but this has less to do with the technique and more to do with a possible mistake or accident by the person dealing with a certain technique.

Consider the following video clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn-p19C8MAQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hqYwZgNbDs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLNExI_uK4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jScJxtLdIBU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVuGDcggm44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1B0MBNqYwc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2YbZIEI5Gg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFjbxa6YsUc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWzdIpayeFk

There really aren't new kata but new variations of the same basic prinicples of kenjutsu. Everything else is stylized differences based on these principles. These principles work because they have helped killed people through wars using real swords. The kata are merely used to teach proper body movement and the use of these prinicples.

Thanks.. you just put one of my videos up.

I dont think you should include kendo kata. Kata is kata, waza is waza. The fundamentals of ryu date back from times of war, of duels to the death. Maybe some were holed up thinking and meditatating. Others like Musashi used his waza, killed lots of people to the extent that he didnt even need a real sword anymore, then after his killing period he lived in a hole and meditated. Its the ones that didnt get killed that handed down tried and tested methods, not the dead ones.

[rjhartu]

I think the kendo kata share something in common with the others shown in the videos. Because, most those kata shown were from the Edo period. The kata themselves were passed on as teaching something important about the nature of kenjutsu. The kata simply were never done in a real fight as shown, however something like them may have been done.

The kendo kata are as important and related to killing as those other videos. I included it to make a point.
The principles of swordsmanship are contained via the kata as a training method.
Actual sword fighting isn't the same, the kata are the presentation of the principles of movement and swordsmanship.
Almost all schools of kenjutsu are derived off of other schools leading as far back as the original eight schools of Kyoto. From these schools gave rise to all the rest but the basic underlining principles remain the same. The main principle being to deliver a blow that kills or incompacitates the other. Kendo is in line with that tradition without having to kill anyone, but it could if two people used real blades.

The videos were meant to show the similar aspects of kenjutsu across schools.

By the way which video was yours.

:-)

[Hyaku]

I think the kendo kata share something in common with the others shown in the videos. Because, most those kata shown were from the Edo period. The kata themselves were passed on as teaching something important about the nature of kenjutsu. The kata simply were never done in a real fight as shown, however something like them may have been done.

The kendo kata are as important and related to killing as those other videos. I included it to make a point.
The principles of swordsmanship are contained via the kata as a training method.
Actual sword fighting isn't the same, the kata are the presentation of the principles of movement and swordsmanship.
Almost all schools of kenjutsu are derived off of other schools leading as far back as the original eight schools of Kyoto. From these schools gave rise to all the rest but the basic underlining principles remain the same. The main principle being to deliver a blow that kills or incompacitates the other. Kendo is in line with that tradition without having to kill anyone, but it could if two people used real blades.

The videos were meant to show the similar aspects of kenjutsu across schools.

By the way which video was yours.

:-)


Yes I am perfectly aware of the principles and study of Japanese swordsmanship. Kendo offers a way of learning by attacking protected areas. One of the main differences you will find is that kenjutsu teaches to attack unprotected areas. With us its move out of the way or end up in hospital. This does add a certain amount of realism to practice. The broken fingers and a snapped ironwood bokuto were entirely my fualt for noe moving quick enough.

I have also enjoyed Kendo and Iaido for many years but tried to get down to more older basics rather than the derivatives.

As I said we call it waza not kata. Kata is merely form or shape of it. People can make up Kata but they cant make up Waza. So to me and to get back to what was the start of this thread, forming your own style is rather pointless. What do I do? I think it's in the profile

[rjhartu]

In the Edo period there weren't many wars and armour if worn got lighter and less protective. Kendo as a sport still attack targets associated along the same lines as Itto ryu. Waza and kata as you say is a mere difference in the how, but you ought to know the terms are interchangeable.

The principles still are the same the targets of the kata are still about the same with variation.
I included the kendo kata because of that, look at Itto ryu and look at kendo.

Most edo period koryu don't attack the same targets say Katori Shinto ryu do or your Kage ryu does, they aren't from the same period. Most edo period kenjutsu doesn't involve armor as much as older arts.

On the battle field swords were secondary to spears and naginata and the like. Swords have primarily been a dueling and back up weapon.



As far as this guy wanting to create his own art I think it's a waste of time when learning one art is hard enough, let alone creating something that doesn't suck would be harder still.

I also do koryu kenjutsu and the like but you won't find that in my profile.

[rjhartu]

I meant to include the targets in the same way not that the targets differ the greatly. My iPhone is seriously difficult to type on.

But, I'm not really disagreeing with you in any meaningful way, I included kendo as a comparrison and how the principles are similar. Each schools has their own methodology for teaching and putting the principles in motion.

Kendo is a sport, that uses kenjutsu principles in it's application and practice but kendo as a practice is also a type of training method for kenjutsu. Kendo had been in development as a non-lethal training method that happened to turn into a sport.

[rjhartu]

Oops sorry I'm thinking about a different kage ryu.

陰流 剣術 and not this version minus the sui ben 影之流 居合.

My mistake: there Also appears to be one with the Sui ben 影之流 as well.

[ZealUK]

Oops sorry I'm thinking about a different kage ryu.

陰流 剣術 and not this version minus the sui ben 影之流 居合.

My mistake: there Also appears to be one with the Sui ben 影之流 as well.

Do you mean 三水編？ 影 Doesn't contain that radical.

That's さんづくり.

[rjhartu]

Yeah, I forget and mess up the names of the radicals sometimes. Thanks for the correction.

[Jonathan]

If you have practiced Kobudo in Japan for some year i dont think you would be asking this question. Of course a certain amount of variation come with each succeeding headmaster. We also know how previous headmasters interpreted certain things. We have to decide which interpretation we want to go with. tis does not alter the fundamentals of a waza. Specific fundamentals are they key to all waza withina ryu a found has handed down. The rule we have to observe is "without adaptation".

As a beginer we tend to throw in things we do know from perhaps another sword school/style because we are still not adept at what we are learning. Putting in 'your own stuff' simply shows a lack of understanding of the concept and philosophy of Budo. It's not a smart thing to do and is usually linked with some kind of financial gain. If you want to learn something new, learn something old!

The last year or so has been a time of challenging a lot of assumptions I've held. That being the case, asking questions has only ever helped me out. Hopefully I don't cause offense with them, I'm not trying to be a wise-assy devil's advocate and if I come across that way let's blame it on my poor writing style as I strive for improvement.

When in doubt, I tend to run back to Musashi. Even he had some things to say about "the flower being more than the nut" or something along those lines depending on translation, so there's got to be more to it than geography and time spent. I know around here, and in many places, legitimacy / authenticity / whatever term personally appeals means "I can look it up on koryu.com", but that isn't necessarily the only way for everyone ever.

There are older extant koryu martial arts from, oh say, Heiho Niten Ichi Ryu, right? If they had forums in feudal Japan, would we be telling Musashi to just stick with the curriculum of the older, more established ryu-ha had to offer and not worrying about making stuff up?

[pgsmith]

If they had forums in feudal Japan, would we be telling Musashi to just stick with the curriculum of the older, more established ryu-ha had to offer and not worrying about making stuff up?
Musashi was born into the samurai caste. This means that he was taught weaponry as part of his education from a very young age. He also killed quite a number of people. He never "made stuff up" as you put it, he simply refined the various things he had been taught according to what he had learned from both fighting other people, as well as his own contemplations.
I can't personally think of anyone that has invented their own style in today's society that I'd equate with Musashi, without having to laugh out loud about the comparison.

[rjhartu]

The last year or so has been a time of challenging a lot of assumptions I've held. That being the case, asking questions has only ever helped me out. Hopefully I don't cause offense with them, I'm not trying to be a wise-assy devil's advocate and if I come across that way let's blame it on my poor writing style as I strive for improvement.

When in doubt, I tend to run back to Musashi. Even he had some things to say about "the flower being more than the nut" or something along those lines depending on translation, so there's got to be more to it than geography and time spent. I know around here, and in many places, legitimacy / authenticity / whatever term personally appeals means "I can look it up on koryu.com", but that isn't necessarily the only way for everyone ever.

There are older extant koryu martial arts from, oh say, Heiho Niten Ichi Ryu, right? If they had forums in feudal Japan, would we be telling Musashi to just stick with the curriculum of the older, more established ryu-ha had to offer and not worrying about making stuff up?


No, they would have killed him, if he didn't train in the older forms first and mastered them first, we would never have heard of Musashi.
Musashi learned a family art first.

No Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent, No creating your own ryu-ha. Unless you are some type of sword genius, or you want to flat out suck - train a lot and for a long time in a real koryu before even thinking about founding your own school or art.

[Jonathan]

Fair enough, but then again in today's society you wouldn't really have to be on a Musashi-esque level to be a better than average swordsman. There's a lot of mediocrity that gets air time.

Even then, ok so Musashi studied from a young age, cool. So did the guys who's asses he kicked. Depending on what reference you want to use, some of the guys he sent off to the great sushi bar in the sky may have had years, or even decades, of experience on him. Didn't seem to have helped them out very much.

If you want to take the position that Musashi mastered existing arts before starting his rampage of ass-kicking and name-taking, thats cool but I have a hard time envisioning a kid of fifteen or so mastering(!) a martial art form (let alone several), even if he had nothing better to do at the time than train and eat fish.

[rjhartu]

He didn't found the ryu-ha until he was well advanced in age, and experience... the difference is he didn't pull bits and pieces from other arts at random, he had a framework to build on i.e. his family style. He made improvements and changes in addition to adding his own philosophical outlook that warranted a new style. He didn't just walk around and collect kata for the sake up creating a new style.

[Jonathan]

I don't think anybody here is advocating taking random stuff and throwing it together to call it a system.

I don't necessarily buy that Musashi got along on family style arts, and then for some reason when it came time for him to start teaching it decided to just go ahead and come up with a new name and talk about his personal experiences as opposed to the glorious history of his ancestor's martial prowess. The impression I get from the guy is he found stuff that worked and ran with it. If someone is willing to direct me to material that has a compelling argument to the contrary I'm willing to revisit my perceptions of Musashi.

Anyway, I was just throwing out an example that I feel is historical precedent that some guy can pick up a bokken / sword and become proficient with it outside of the confines of a formal traditional ryu ha as most people understand it.

It's putting a piece of steel / wood on some dude and not getting cut down in the process. There is more than one way to get the job done.

[rjhartu]

You could start here...
http://www.miyamotomusashi.com/gorin.htm

The OP of this thread pretty much said his friend was going to do just that...

Are you looking to create your own style?

[rjhartu]

http://www.toronto-nitenkai.org/moremusashi.htm　

I have a few books, but I'm not at home right this second. I'll get you sources and page numbers if you like if I have time.

[Jonathan]

There is a difference between throwing random stuff and haphazardly mixing it together into some kind of ryu paste, and drawing from various sources and taking the time to understand what is happening where and why.

I don't have much interest in creating a style, the original poster's buddy might. I just disagree with the general consensus that the human ability to develop a martial system involving katana disappeared from the face of the earth around the time of the Meiji Restoration, never to return. I just don't think it works that way.

Ultimately, somebody "creating their own style" is a pretty simple thing. Pick up a sword, and do something with it that makes some other person want to do it too and you're pretty much there. Now you can talk effectiveness or historical accuracy or cultural legitimacy, or any other hair you wanna split, but that is kind of a different conversation altogether.

[ScottUK]

It's putting a piece of steel / wood on some dude and not getting cut down in the process....but why would you want to create an art that focuses on this in this day and age?

[Jonathan]

I study because I think it's neat. I think swording is cool on its own merits, and there's all kinds of crazy things that seem to come along with it - having made awesome friends, getting opportunities to have interesting conversations like this, all of a sudden having an interest in studying human anatomy and physiology, learning about freaking metallurgy... I've become exposed to areas of study I never would have even thought about, simply by picking up a sword and wanting to learn more about it.

I really don't think there's anything wrong with taking the traditional paths, obviously they have something to offer. I'm getting ready to set up some summer seminars with guys I respect the hell out of for our Boston / NH group. In fact, I'm grateful for the people who put in the hard work to have kept 'em alive long enough for me to check it out.

But getting back to the "why would you want to be able to do somebody in" conversation... It's an interesting theoretical intellectual and physical challenge, I guess is the way to put it. I don't want to get in a shouting match, let alone a violent confrontation with anybody if it can be helped. I'm a pretty mellow dude, even if I sometimes come across strong on the Internets.

Isn't one of the supposed big selling points of classical koryu the idea that it was "battlefield tested", and that the stuff you get to learn comes from some guy who was out there lopping up bad dudes? I mean, why would anyone seek that out in this day and age? Are the koryu guys just violent people who want to be able to kill?

[ScottUK]

I mean, why would anyone seek that out in this day and age? Are the koryu guys just violent people who want to be able to kill?Heritage? History?

Basically the opposite reasons from those who want to learn self defence/how to fight with a sword.

[Jonathan]

Fair enough, but it isn't necessarily an either / or proposition. It is entirely possible to be interested in the cultural significance and history, and appreciating and cultivating the combative aspect. Otherwise, I'd be spending more time with a shakuhachi or working on my shodo or playing go or something than working on waza.

There are non-martial ways to get there, so why take up a sword at all?

[ScottUK]

It is entirely possible to be interested in the cultural significance and history, and appreciating and cultivating the combative aspect.I agree completely.

However, what are the reasons why someone would create a modern sword style? What can they create that is needed today that isn't contained within koryu JSA? Self-improvement? You have kendo and seitei iai. Self defence? Nope, not with swords...

[pgsmith]

My biggest problem with the "just wanting to learn how to mess with swords" people such as Jonathan is that they are parasites on the JSA world. I'm really not trying to be nasty or anything, but that is simply how I see it.
The Japanese sword arts have been handed down over generations through the hard work and dedication of individuals willing to learn enough to be able to pass it on to the next generation. Now you have a veritable plethora of folks who just want to study an art long enough to learn a little bit, then go study something else. They'll attend a few seminars, read a bit about it, and that's that. They are not at all interested in helping pass these arts to the next generation, and don't want to bother putting the sweat equity into a particular ryuha to help it survive. They simply take what they can and run. In short ... a parasite.

Now there's nothing inherently wrong with that, and I'm sure the same thing has been done as long as swords schools have been in existence. I am simply pointing it out so that Jonathan can understand why there will always be animosity between those of us that are working hard in our chosen koryu, and those that are content to glean from our harvest.

[Fred27]

My biggest problem with the "just wanting to learn how to mess with swords" people such as Jonathan is that they are parasites on the JSA world. I'm really not trying to be nasty or anything, but that is simply how I see it.
The Japanese sword arts have been handed down over generations through the hard work and dedication of individuals willing to learn enough to be able to pass it on to the next generation. Now you have a veritable plethora of folks who just want to study an art long enough to learn a little bit, then go study something else. They'll attend a few seminars, read a bit about it, and that's that. They are not at all interested in helping pass these arts to the next generation, and don't want to bother putting the sweat equity into a particular ryuha to help it survive. They simply take what they can and run. In short ... a parasite.

Now there's nothing inherently wrong with that, and I'm sure the same thing has been done as long as swords schools have been in existence. I am simply pointing it out so that Jonathan can understand why there will always be animosity between those of us that are working hard in our chosen koryu, and those that are content to glean from our harvest.

Hear hear!! :)

I'd tatoo that on my skin if I had the space.

[Jonathan]

It's got to be an artistic expression kind of thing. I can't for the life of me think of a "need" for doing sword-based combat at all.

It's a hobby, I guess. Like there is no need for a model ship in a bottle to be done to scale, it isn't like anyone is going to take it sailing. Why bother with the attention to detail? It's just how some people choose to spend their time, I get why even if I might not agree with their particular approach.

Why would anyone bother trying to find an individual spiritual outlook? There are all kinds of established organized religions, and they supposedly have great things to offer. I've checked a few out, and like bits and pieces but haven't found The One, so I guess the next best thing is to try to figure it out on my own and occasionally check in with people that are willing to talk about what works for them. Not intending to go all esoteric here, but maybe that answers in some way?

Or I guess it could be an ego thing where someone comes up with a style so they can have a room full of dudes bow to them and call them sensei. There's a lot of different reasons.

[Jonathan]

My biggest problem with the "just wanting to learn how to mess with swords" people such as Jonathan is that they are parasites on the JSA world. I'm really not trying to be nasty or anything, but that is simply how I see it.
The Japanese sword arts have been handed down over generations through the hard work and dedication of individuals willing to learn enough to be able to pass it on to the next generation. Now you have a veritable plethora of folks who just want to study an art long enough to learn a little bit, then go study something else. They'll attend a few seminars, read a bit about it, and that's that. They are not at all interested in helping pass these arts to the next generation, and don't want to bother putting the sweat equity into a particular ryuha to help it survive. They simply take what they can and run. In short ... a parasite.

Now there's nothing inherently wrong with that, and I'm sure the same thing has been done as long as swords schools have been in existence. I am simply pointing it out so that Jonathan can understand why there will always be animosity between those of us that are working hard in our chosen koryu, and those that are content to glean from our harvest.

If you feel that spending a little time with someone that isn't going to make a life-long commitment to your ryuha is a waste of time, I am not going agree but hey thats cool there are other people out there that won't turn me down. I'm sure we'll both get along fine.

I'm not interested in being somebody's disciple, so if that's what you are looking for then chances are good that I'm not your ideal student and you aren't my ideal teacher. It's ok, there's a reason there's more than one dojo. If you wanna keep it in the family that is your prerogative.

I do disagree that it a parasitic relationship. It takes a significant investment in effort to arrange a seminar, work on the material given, and show what you've been working on when you have the guys back the following year. If I was being sneaky in some way, pretending to sign on to a ryu only to get some material and then pass it off as though I were some genius sword prodigy who just stumbled on to it while twirling a stick I could maybe see a case there, as that behavior is pretty contemptible. When I pick up new things, I make sure anyone who asks knows where it came from and how.

There is no reason whatsoever for animosity. If I ask you to show me something, and you say no, well, the conversations pretty much done and there's no reason for either of us to get all huffy about it.

[Kim Taylor]

With what is likely an 80 to 90 percent dropout rate in the martial arts classes (of all types) I've participated in over the last 30 years, I'd say it's a pretty high ratio of parasites to nerds (which is what you have to call someone who does this stuff for 30 years or more).

While I might get a bit frustrated with teaching the introductory classes over and over again, I've never resented the students who pass through the dojo any more than I would resent someone who comes to a photography workshop out of interest, or who takes a few guitar lessons.

Or someone who reads for fun as opposed to searching for the meaning of life in the most ancient of texts known to humanity.

A bit of perspective is always a good thing. I have been doing this stuff for a very long time and know lots of teachers in several koryu and I even teach the occasional class in koryu myself, but all that gets me is the right to say what I just said.

I may regularly think "talk to me in ten years kid" but I try not to say it too often, it just makes me sound like a cranky old man. It doesn't mean I think the kid is a parasite, it just means he's talking like a beginner.... really enthusiastically like a puppy or later, stuffily authoritatively like someone with just enough knowledge to think he knows a lot more than he does. Both are cured with time in training.

Kim.

[rjhartu]

Kenjutsu otaku.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, screw enjoying your hobbies. That's totally lame.

People who do things they like are totally selfish, they're just in it for themselves.

[Are2]

... nerds (which is what you have to call someone who does this stuff for 30 years or more).


Kenjutsu otaku.

I'm not sure if the latter was supposed to be a negative comment, because it's exactly the same thing as the former.

[Jonathan]

A gentleman who currently has his location information as specifying that he is in Japan would most likely be aware of the negative associations of the term he was throwing about. Particularly one who had an interest in linguistics.

[Jonathan]

*time limit on edits :mad:*

Unless I am misreading something, Kim Taylor was self-indentifying as a nerd and in a semi good-natured way. rjhartu's comment seemed a little less well intentioned, unless I am missing something and he was actually directing his comment to Mr. Taylor and not myself.

In any event, the Flames section is elsewhere, so please feel invited to call me names there if you like. It is kind of not required here.

[Kim Taylor]

*time limit on edits :mad:*

Unless I am misreading something, Kim Taylor was self-indentifying as a nerd and in a semi good-natured way. rjhartu's comment seemed a little less well intentioned, unless I am missing something and he was actually directing his comment to Mr. Taylor and not myself.

In any event, the Flames section is elsewhere, so please feel invited to call me names there if you like. It is kind of not required here.

Good lord folks, lighten up. I'm as much kenjutsu otaku / sword nerd as you could possibly get. There is no insult in stating the truth.... despite what the professional victims du jour might insist.

Regardless, the post Rhartu made should be taken as a joke, translating (and extending?) sword nerd to kenjutsu otaku, I wouldn't have assumed he was aiming at anyone at all.

Kim.

[Jonathan]

Good call, mellowing out. Not that I was all that animated (haha get it?) to begin with, just kind of pointing out what I was seeing there.

I'd just like to keep this thread on point.

Appreciate your contributions, and hope you're having a good holiday if you celebrate such.

[rjhartu]

Otaku isn't such a negative term anymore in it's usage.

I'm not interested in liguistics either, not even sure where you got that one from.

The moment you start teaching is the moment that a collector of half-understood kata and half-trained techniques from the "back-cover" of koryu ceases to be a hobbiest.

[Jonathan]

The moment you start teaching is the moment that a collector of half-understood kata and half-trained techniques from the "back-cover" of koryu ceases to be a hobbiest.

How do you determine half-understanding, or half-training?

Do you believe that as a martial artist it is possible to reach some plateau where you're no longer learning anything new about your waza / kata?

If guys in their 60's and 70's are still pushing the boundaries of what they understand and are discovering new subtleties, wouldn't pretty much everyone else be working off the "back cover" by way of comparison?

[turboyoshi]

How do you determine half-understanding, or half-training?

If guys in their 60's and 70's are still pushing the boundaries of what they understand and are discovering new subtleties, wouldn't pretty much everyone else be working off the "back cover" by way of comparison?

The answer to question #2 is:
No, because they are constantly checking in with the sensei to ensure they stay on track.

This automatically makes clear the answer to #1:
Understanding is determined through deep intensive study under the guidance of sensei, which by definition, rules out hobbyists.

[Jonathan]

I'm not sure simply having a sensei is all it takes. If you show up to class for a few hours once a week and the rest of the time toss your equipment in the corner of the room and sit around waiting for the next time for them to spoonfeed you, all you've really got is a spot on the attendance rolls and maybe a mon on your chest.

Moreso than the time in a dojo, I believe what you do on your own has a far greater impact on your development. Instructors are great, I have a few I get together with. They can't do anything for me unless I put in the sweat equity to pull off what they're trying to convey.

Anyway, the hobbyist / pro distinction is kind of weak. Unless martial arts are your primary source of income, I'm pretty sure you're like me, a hobbyist.

[rjhartu]

I'm fairly certain it doesn't concern me much. If you are the friend of the OP or thinking aboun creating your own sword art.

Please put it up on YouTube with all the rest. You'll fit right in.

[Jonathan]

At this point I am absolutely content to refine the material I've already got to work with, and will do my best with whatever the people good enough to show me more have to offer.

You got me wrong dude, I'm not interested in starting a style, a new dance craze, or anything along those lines. I just look at posts earlier in this thread that make absurd statements that people are somehow magically unable to create sword arts after Meiji said no more samurai. It just doesn't freaking compute.

Again, you can debate the merits of it on historical or practical (whatever that might mean in today's world) grounds, but whether it sucks or not on whatever criteria you choose to base your critique on is kind of irrelevant to whether it can exist.

And thanks for the high praise on youtube. I've got two tabs open looking at Otake Sensei and Kuroda Sensei on there right now. I'm not sure I'm really at a place where I'd fit in with guys like them, but your vote of confidence is really touching.

[Allan Yee]

I just look at posts earlier in this thread that make absurd statements that people are somehow magically unable to create sword arts after Meiji said no more samurai. It just doesn't freaking compute.

Well, you probably could create your own sword style; there are plenty of stunt directors and theatrical fight choreographers who do so for a living in Hollywood. But if you're not teaching Tom Cruise how to look like a samurai, why would you want to? And why use all the trappings of Japanese swordsmanship? Why insist on martial efficacy?

I've seen enough free-rider ego-boo to be skeptical and dismayed whenever someone comes out with a new "modern combat kenjutsu" or whatever. It reminds me of the distinction between genuine professional astronomers and the astrology/UFO/astral-travel pseudo-science crowd. The latter try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability properly belonging to the former but get things so massively wrong it's mind-boggling.

Allan

[Jonathan]

Well, you probably could create your own sword style; there are plenty of stunt directors and theatrical fight choreographers who do so for a living in Hollywood. But if you're not teaching Tom Cruise how to look like a samurai, why would you want to? And why use all the trappings of Japanese swordsmanship? Why insist on martial efficacy?

I've seen enough free-rider ego-boo to be skeptical and dismayed whenever someone comes out with a new "modern combat kenjutsu" or whatever. It reminds me of the distinction between genuine professional astronomers and the astrology/UFO/astral-travel pseudo-science crowd. The latter try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability properly belonging to the former but get things so massively wrong it's mind-boggling.

Allan

People do things for all kinds of silly reasons. Personally speaking, I've always been into swords. Being able to actually use one is fun and makes me happy. Maybe that isn't nearly as good a reason as claiming some kind of moral obligation to a family I was never related to and that wouldn't know me from any other gaijin, but there ya go. I'm apparently a selfish parasite, so take that for what it is worth.

As far as the trappings go... a better martial artist than me said something along the lines of "You wouldn't go horseback riding in scuba gear, and it doesn't make sense to go deep sea diving in blue jeans and leather boots." Maybe it's something about dressing for the occasion? I don't particularly like hakama and kimono, they're kind of a hassle. But then again I have a similar feeling towards neckties, but there's a time and a place where you're supposed to wear 'em for whatever reason. And if nothing else, I picked up a few Japanese terms and got some dojo etiquette so when I meet with real koryu dudes I can work with them to some extent on the mat without embarrassing myself too much. Failing to see the negative there.

On the martial efficacy, well these are supposedly martial arts, right? I mean, if you take the martial out of it you might still have something pretty, but I'm interested in the sword and learning how to use it in the most optimal manner possible.

I've come across some questionable things already in my short career, so I can understand being skeptical. On the other hand I've been fortunate enough to work with some really top shelf individuals. Learning how to discern good and not good is an important skill.

[ScottUK]

Hmmmm, some strange opinions there. Still, we all know what opinions are worth so I won't hold them against you.

How do you enjoy your practice when you have to dress in a manner that you don't enjoy?


For classes, a student should wear a kimono or gi top, a kaku obi, and a solid colored hakama. Advanced students may wear a striped hakama with the instructor's approval.

Other than a requirement for a beginning student to wear a solid colored hakama, there are no other hard and fast requirements for class attire. Any tasteful gi top may be worn, and obi color is left to the students discretion.

[rjhartu]

At this point I am absolutely content to refine the material I've already got to work with, and will do my best with whatever the people good enough to show me more have to offer.

You got me wrong dude, I'm not interested in starting a style, a new dance craze, or anything along those lines. I just look at posts earlier in this thread that make absurd statements that people are somehow magically unable to create sword arts after Meiji said no more samurai. It just doesn't freaking compute.

Again, you can debate the merits of it on historical or practical (whatever that might mean in today's world) grounds, but whether it sucks or not on whatever criteria you choose to base your critique on is kind of irrelevant to whether it can exist.

And thanks for the high praise on youtube. I've got two tabs open looking at Otake Sensei and Kuroda Sensei on there right now. I'm not sure I'm really at a place where I'd fit in with guys like them, but your vote of confidence is really touching.


What you create or don't or whatever won't be a Japanese sword art. It will be a mere fiction art. You can create an art, but that art won't have any merit unless you have mastered at least one other art and tested it, (you don't have to kill or injure people) doing jigeiko at the least.

How do you refine in a vaccum when you haven't received the kuden, or the gokui? This isn't something that a visitor is likely to ever hear. Who do you check your training with to see if you are doing something completely wrong or worse?

Personal refinement is fine, but if your merely creating stuff and building things from a collection you'll be left with some sort of odd looking chimera.

I'm fairly certain you won't impress people in koryu, people who have been teaching and training for along time can kind of read people. Your intentions will probably be read easily enough.

You might be able to fool the newer ones, but it's unlikely you'll recieve anything likely more that the dust jacket of koryu.

Do you do kendo at the very least?

[b8amack]

I've come across some questionable things already in my short career, so I can understand being skeptical. On the other hand I've been fortunate enough to work with some really top shelf individuals. Learning how to discern good and not good is an important skill.

Only if it continues when you look in the mirror.

[Jonathan]

ScottUK:
I have fun going to the firing range with my friend even though I'm not crazy about the way ear and eye protection feels. It's just part of the experience (and undoubtedly an important piece of safety gear, but that aside...). I've done tameshigiri with hakama and kimono as well as in jeans and a tshirt, and didn't notice it particularly alter the experience.

rjhartu:
Well it is an art, and it is using a Japanese sword, so I'm ok with calling what I do a Japanese sword art.

I'm working with guys that have multiple decades of background in martial arts, and were part of the Nami Ryu system for several years. I'd hardly call it a vacuum. From my experiences there, I have met some extremely talented and dedicated individuals.

I'm not looking to impress anyone, really. I mean, I like it when my sensei tells me I am the right track, and there's a pair of individuals in the Orange County who's opinions I hold in extremely high regards, but I'm not really looking to put on a show.

As far as testing technique goes, I verify that the same way I imagine most people do: does uchidachi get me? I'm not sure how else you would be able to gauge efficacy.

Kendo doesn't really seem to offer what I am interested in. No slight against those of you that do it, but I've yet to see a shinai that approximated the handling characteristics of the types of swords I use. The shape is wrong, and there's no saya. Most of what I have observed in videos of matches consist of quick taps for a point that would have little to no kiriotoshi whatsoever. I'm sure there are exceptions, but those are my impressions.

b8amack: I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't think I'm terribly skilled, and there's a lot to learn. I have given everyone that has been kind enough to help me along my complete respect and gratitude. I've yet to work with someone that regretted the experience, so I think in that sense I am doing something right. I'm perfectly ok with looking in the mirror.

[Hyaku]

Well, you probably could create your own sword style; there are plenty of stunt directors and theatrical fight choreographers who do so for a living in Hollywood. But if you're not teaching Tom Cruise how to look like a samurai, why would you want to? And why use all the trappings of Japanese swordsmanship? Why insist on martial efficacy?

I've seen enough free-rider ego-boo to be skeptical and dismayed whenever someone comes out with a new "modern combat kenjutsu" or whatever. It reminds me of the distinction between genuine professional astronomers and the astrology/UFO/astral-travel pseudo-science crowd. The latter try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability properly belonging to the former but get things so massively wrong it's mind-boggling.

Allan

An interesting comment because one of the top fight arrangment men in the business is Hayashi Kunishiro of Wakakoma Pro. Having competed in national tameshigiri taikai with some of his guys, I can assue you they are among some of the most competant Budo experts I have ever met. Luckily a little bit of it rubs off on actors after a few months hard training.

To others:
Sorry if I sound a bit severe but founders teachings are deep rooted within me. After many years of more modern well made up stuff adapted to indoor practice I found a home in Musashi's way. I do my damdest to hand ir all down without adaptation. I only hope others have taught and practiced with the same ferver. We do see pussy footed adaptations and could do it that way to, but have to ask ourselves do we really want to do it that way. There are succinct, very subtle differences between koryu and new reformed kata. Especially the use of Koshi, Kiken tai. etc. I was once criticized by sensei bacause I had to win prefectural Iaido takai by having to do a representation of being nearest to what was written in a book. Now at least I can do things with a bit of danger and realism involved and with a lot of flavour added.

Lets not forget what makes us good is our perfection of fundamentals with that added flavour. If you are going to make it up I fail to see any fundamantal basis. I did one waza for nearly seven years before be allowing to progress to the second. If possible. if you have the time meaning the reat of your life? Thats the way it is and the way it should be.

Times are changing. Iwata Sensei once told me some taikai were bad not because of the participants but the judges who could not recognize who did what from which succeeding great teacher. We rell have to try to avoid a mish mash of movements that someone 'thinks' might be right.

[ScottUK]

Jonathan, I think (like many people) you are missing the point of kendo. You might as well say fencing isn't real 'cos there aren't chandeliers to swing off.
I've done tameshigiri with hakama and kimono as well as in jeans and a tshirt, and didn't notice it particularly alter the experience.What do you wear for general training then?


I'm not sure how else you would be able to gauge efficacy.Your sensei. He/she will be able to pick holes in your technique - and in reality take you apart in combat.

[willszenith]

Jonathan, I think (like many people) you are missing the point of kendo. You might as well say fencing isn't real 'cos there aren't chandeliers to swing off.What do you wear for general training then?

Your sensei. He/she will be able to pick holes in your technique - and in reality take you apart in combat.


You forgot candle cutting, you cant be a fencer if you havent cut candles...

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, I think (like many people) you are missing the point of kendo. You might as well say fencing isn't real 'cos there aren't chandeliers to swing off.What do you wear for general training then?

Your sensei. He/she will be able to pick holes in your technique - and in reality take you apart in combat.

In the dojo, I'm doing hakama, obi, and either a gi or modified kimono top. When I am working on things at home, I might just grab the bokken or my swords and work through some things, or actually get changed into my gear. I try to keep that to a minimum, at least one reason being we have a lot of fuzzy pets. When we get together for tameshigiri, we nearly always go in our dojo regalia. I think I've only done one day's worth of cutting in "street clothes", more out of morbid curiosity than anything else. It usually depends on the situation, a more formal occasion calls for more formal attire.

I'm really not slighting kendo for the abstraction that has to take place. I am sure it is a great pursuit and I'd never try to convince anyone who enjoys it to do something else. I don't want to say "kendo isn't real" per se, its obviously real because you fellows do it, right? I just think there are things I'm looking for that I won't find in it - if nothing else I can't see it ever improving my noto or nukitsuke. I think anyone doing kendo would agree that stuff like that falls outside of the spectrum and just isn't part of the curriculum.

[ender84567]

I just think there are things I'm looking for that I won't find in it - if nothing else I can't see it ever improving my noto or nukitsuke. I think anyone doing kendo would agree that stuff like that falls outside of the spectrum and just isn't part of the curriculum.

You are still missing scotts point, and the point of kendo, as well as the point of most of the people who study koryu, which is the reason for the animosity. Its not because of what you do, its the attitude you bring, without really understanding whats going on.

[Jonathan]

You are still missing scotts point, and the point of kendo, as well as the point of most of the people who study koryu, which is the reason for the animosity. Its not because of what you do, its the attitude you bring, without really understanding whats going on.

Yeah, but I don't do kendo, so what difference does it make?

How does what I do, or the way I look at what I do, affect your practice whatsoever?

I would hope that most people study their art because they enjoy it and find it interesting to do. Why else do anything?

[ender84567]

It doesn't, necessarily, but there is a reason you continue to post and a reason people continue to answer... Within that is the answer.

[Jonathan]

Sheer amusement?

The funny thing is, I looked at the meaning of kendo on numerous sites, for exampe kendo-usa.org/creed.htm and nowhere did I see "looking down or casting aspersions on the practitioners of other arts" as one of the tenets.

Maybe this is an ura part of koryu etiquette that I do not properly appreciate as a result of my non-traditional background.

[ScottUK]

No, that comes as extra.

Jonathan, for a long time I didn't understand the purpose of kendo, being a iai & koryu kind of guy. When I took up kendo (albeit as a secondary art) it dawned on me how much of a pillock I was to throw it away as pointless exercise. Like other (similar) arts, the sheer difficulty and complexity of the practice of kendo genuinely surprised me. I now see its place in the JSA world.

These days I don't criticise other arts even if they are utter horseshit. I make exceptions for fake histories though.

You practice what you want as long it makes you happy. That's cool with us. We may not agree but that is personal taste. However, when you come on here and make ridiculous comments, please don't throw your toys out of your pram when you get shot down.

[Jonathan]

No, that comes as extra.

Jonathan, for a long time I didn't understand the purpose of kendo, being a iai & koryu kind of guy. When I took up kendo (albeit as a secondary art) it dawned on me how much of a pillock I was to throw it away as pointless exercise. Like other (similar) arts, the sheer difficulty and complexity of the practice of kendo genuinely surprised me. I now see its place in the JSA world.

These days I don't criticise other arts even if they are utter horseshit. I make exceptions for fake histories though.

You practice what you want as long it makes you happy. That's cool with us. We may not agree but that is personal taste. However, when you come on here and make ridiculous comments, please don't throw your toys out of your pram when you get shot down.

I likewise try to refrain from criticizing arts. If I see something that I don't understand or that confuses me I'll ask about it, because I do think about the things I see, but I draw the line at "trash-talking", I just think it is in exceedingly poor taste. I agree with your position on fake histories, and have done quite a bit of research on my own time. There's a reason I am studying what I'm studying and with the guys I associate with and not currently associated with a previous art. I don't really want to get into that on a public forum, but there it is.

I'm trying not to make ridiculous statements, if I do I genuinely do apologize for them and make an effort to clarify my thoughts as best as I am able to.

I still believe that the only way to really gage effectiveness with a given technique / waza / principle is to actually test it, I've had an opportunity to informally try some things with a skilled individual that really changed my perception of what works and what doesn't.

For what it's worth even if we don't agree on many things I respect a lot of you guys enough to read your responses and seriously respond.

[Kenzan]

This discussion is irrelevant.
Mainly because NONE of your arts or training shall save your pitiful existences from
the Squirrelly Armageddon which I shall unleash soon upon your wretched human world.

My minions will wash over your civilizations and the furry waves of fury shall devour
both the just and the unjust.

[pgsmith]

Sorry Kenzan, but my dog just ate one of your minions yesterday.

[Kenzan]

Sorry Kenzan, but my dog just ate one of your minions yesterday.

Yes..well.. naturally I assumed that Texas would be a bit of a problem at that....
any chance you'll all just be good sports and lay down and die?
No?

Very well, we'll do this the hard way.

We with our razor sharp buckened-teeth,
and you with your delicious but intestine-ally deadly B-B-Q. sauce.

Have at you then.

[Jonathan]

This discussion is irrelevant.
Mainly because NONE of your arts or training shall save your pitiful existences from
the Squirrelly Armageddon which I shall unleash soon upon your wretched human world.

My minions will wash over your civilizations and the furry waves of fury shall devour
both the just and the unjust.

While I personally have very little experience in addressing the threats of small furry animals, I think between my cat and pgsmith's dog, you may have to revise your approach.

[Kenzan]

While I personally have very little experience in addressing the threats of small furry animals, I think between my cat and pgsmith's dog, you may have to revise your approach.

Precisely why we shall be victorious.
You see, the first waves of your demise will see my battle-hardened rodentry
riding gloriously into the front lines on the backs of exactly the creatures you have descibed.

You'd simply be amazed how easy it was to bribe your species' pets into revolt.
The Dogs were promised unlimited Potato-chip droppings, with an extra allowance of testicle licking.

-and your cats?

Hell, they did it just for the piss of it.

-That, and all the catnip they can smoke.

No, my misguided backyard tameshirgirian, I'm afraid the your days of ruling the Earth are quite numbered, and the streets will run red with the jello of the infidels.
RASBERRY JELLO, NO LESS.
(insert maniacal tittering here.)

[bravo22]

The Dogs were promised unlimited Potato-chip droppings, with an extra allowance of testicle licking.



If all you wanted was your balls licked, why did you not ask?

ps. How is the furry fandom now that Yiffchat has closed down?

[Gishin]

The issue here is that the good folks on this forum are dealing with a kid that obviously has NO idea of what he is talking about. When your reference is Nami-Ryu and their made up folklore it will surely end up in this fashion.

You get someone that either knows what he does is a fake made up school but by going around the way he does is trying to use this to convince himself that his fantasy ryu is the real deal.

Or someone that is very naive or stupid that sees this kind of bullshit as real and will argue against any proper rational because he has no idea how far away he is from truly ubderstanding what he is talking about. An yet out of sheer pride or stupidity will continue to argue and try to make apoint when in fact he has none.

In any case here is something that at least is real and will make you laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY0omvbDEY4

[Jonathan]

The issue here is that the good folks on this forum are dealing with a kid that obviously has NO idea of what he is talking about. When your reference is Nami-Ryu and their made up folklore it will surely end up in this fashion.

You get someone that either knows what he does is a fake made up school but by going around the way he does is trying to use this to convince himself that his fantasy ryu is the real deal.

Or someone that is very naive or stupid that sees this kind of bullshit as real and will argue against any proper rational because he has no idea how far away he is from truly ubderstanding what he is talking about. An yet out of sheer pride or stupidity will continue to argue and try to make apoint when in fact he has none.

In any case here is something that at least is real and will make you laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY0omvbDEY4

With all due respect, you have never met me, trained with me, and really have no idea whatsoever what my study habits are like. I am not part of the Nami Ryu system, so your apparent outrage is woefully misplaced.

Do you study a sword art, that involves an actual sword?

What are your credentials, since you feel so compelled to comment on mine?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Jonathan, just take a few seconds to look at his profile. Most of the people here list their credentials.

[Jonathan]

My apologies, the content of the recent posting made me wonder if there might have been some sort of server error.

[ScottUK]

Jonathan,

While quite a few on here disagee with you, there are more that disagree with Mr Cyr.

Neil,

My Cyr does not list anything either on his profile or website (and I can't be arsed to read his blog). How about making it compulsory? ;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

My Cyr does not list anything either on his profile or website (and I can't be arsed to read his blog). How about making it compulsory? ;)His profile lists him as sandan iaido and gives the dojo as shunpukan in St. Jerome, Quebec.

[ScottUK]

Hmmm, I only get his 'statistics' tab.

[Jonathan]

Jonathan,

While quite a few on here disagee with you, there are more that disagree with Mr Cyr.

Neil,

My Cyr does not list anything either on his profile or website (and I can't be arsed to read his blog). How about making it compulsory? ;)

I don't particularly mind people that disagree with me. In fact I appreciate it in a lot of ways. It's an insecure person that needs the validation of everyone around him.

There's a difference between disagreeing, and being insulting. I try very hard to keep my statements from insulting anyone here even if they aren't terribly popular.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hmmm, I only get his 'statistics' tab.He's probably configured it for privacy but I get to see it due to being an admin. Oddly enough, vBulletin doesn't let me see those settings from the admin tools.

[Saitama Steve]

In the Edo period there weren't many wars and armour if worn got lighter and less protective. Kendo as a sport still attack targets associated along the same lines as Itto ryu. Waza and kata as you say is a mere difference in the how, but you ought to know the terms are interchangeable.

The Shimabara Ran in 1637-1638 was the last battle of the Edo period where bushi were mobilized in armour. It was mainly fought with firearms, but yari and swordplay did play a part in the battle. The swordplay was manifested mainly by the execution of the dissenting Christians.

[ScottUK]

This was the problem of Japan having no lions.

[Fred27]

This was the problem of Japan having no lions.

They did cruicify though, which is a bit ironic slash fitting in this case.