Making tsukagawa longer and the effect on balance

[Raindrop]

Ok, I think I just figured out my tsuka is way too short for me (will check in the dojo tomorrow to make sure) so I did some research on here & through google about changing the length of the tsukagawa and all topics I found were about shortening it on a 39 shinai.

I'm a girl and usually use a 38, but I also just recently started using 39 length women's shinais (same weight as 38). Their tsuka is the same length as a standard 38er one.

I read that making a 39er shinai tsuka shorter alters the balance putting the pivot point more toward the kendoka, does that mean if I put a 39er tsukagawa on my 38er shinai my shinai would get "slower" (by moving the pivot point away from me)?

Sorry, I'm still new to the balance of a shinai and feeling that kind if stuff because I don't think as a noob you can even truly feel any difference in shinais. I mean, it took me 2 years to notice that my tsuka is way too short for me. ^_^;

I did the measuring thing where you hold your arm up at 90 degrees and put the shinai in the crook of your arm and my right index finger is a bit more than an inch above where the tsukagawa ends. I never noticed this because the noob that is me always did this measuring bit with the tsuba on... -__- Plus I always thought that 38 tsukagawa is the right size for all women, it didn't sink in that everyone basicly has their own size in a way.

So now I did some suburi and some slow, controlled menuchi without tsuba and holding my right hand in the longer position and it feels so incredibly different. I feel like I can finally stretch out my right arm properly and now there's a proper fist space between my two hands at the point of tenouchi.

Of course I will ask sensei tomorrow but if I this means I need to alter the tsukagawa length on all my shinais (need to buy new, longer ones) I need to know what the effect is on the balance and feel of the shinai, specifically on the 38er ones, if you make the tsuka longer. I might need to switch to women's 39ers for good?. :confused:

Is there even anyone else here who uses 38ers with a longer tsuka who can tell me of their experience? I knew I had freakishly long arms and fingers (in the davinci model my fingertip to fingertip measurement is 2 inches longer than my height, which gives me 1 inch extra per arm), but I can't imagine it would make such a difference. :3

Is it even possible to put a longer (regular 39er) tsukagawa on a 38er shinai or would it actually be too lose?

I know, I know... can ask all that tomorrow as well, but my mind is racing because I think I just discovered something that might actually really help my Kendo. I also really like to hear KW's opinions on equipment related issues. :P

[JByrd]

My wife and I have done a bit of experimenting with tsuka lengths. In general, a shorter tsuka makes you grip closer to the hilt, which makes the shinai seem heavier, and harder to wield. Having the hands closer together makes it easier to control hasuji (ensuring that the cutting edge is aligned with the swing path). A longer tsuka has the opposite effect, making it easier to handle the shinai, but harder to control hasuji.

Shortening a tsukagawa is easy, but lengthening one is a problem. You might be able to stretch a wet tsukagawa a bit, but the best bet is to start with a longer one.

Once you get the length of the handle dialed in, you can still find a significant amount of variation among shinai. Fat handles, skinny handles, heavy tip, light tip, etc. It's worth trying some different ones. My preferences have changed over the years. Right now I use a koto shinai with a heavy tip for kihon. At nearly 600g it's very hard to control, so it forces me to be careful. I sometimes switch to a shinai with a lighter tip for free sparring.

[Roberto]

From my opinion, you might need even to get it shorter. No think about longer, it just puts more stress on the right arm.

[skilled]

I used to think the same ,

" Omg is this shinai going to affect my kendo ? oh no ! I have to resize the tsuka !! oh no ! "

Don't worry too much about it .

[Raindrop]

My wife and I have done a bit of experimenting with tsuka lengths. In general, a shorter tsuka makes you grip closer to the hilt, which makes the shinai seem heavier, and harder to wield. Having the hands closer together makes it easier to control hasuji (ensuring that the cutting edge is aligned with the swing path). A longer tsuka has the opposite effect, making it easier to handle the shinai, but harder to control hasuji.

Shortening a tsukagawa is easy, but lengthening one is a problem. You might be able to stretch a wet tsukagawa a bit, but the best bet is to start with a longer one.

Once you get the length of the handle dialed in, you can still find a significant amount of variation among shinai. Fat handles, skinny handles, heavy tip, light tip, etc. It's worth trying some different ones. My preferences have changed over the years. Right now I use a koto shinai with a heavy tip for kihon. At nearly 600g it's very hard to control, so it forces me to be careful. I sometimes switch to a shinai with a lighter tip for free sparring.

Thank you! I'm still a beginner so I'm only just now starting to feel the shinai properly. It's actually a big fail on my part cause I just bought a new shinai in Japan and I should have had them look at the tsukalength properly instead of just saying "give me normal 38". I mean I was right there... -___- I was too overwhelmed
by being in a real kendo shop and my Japanese is really bad. I just stood there grinning... not thinking about anything important apparently...

This morning before I left for work I did 100 suburi without tsuba and gripping higher and it feels so much easier and I feel like I have so much more control. I will wait what my sensei and sempai say tonight but then I'll order a few longer tsukagawas right away in hopes they'll be here on time.

In my two years of Kendo I always struggled with certain techniques that require subtle, yet quick hand movements. Harai waza being one of them. Now when I grip the tsuka higher I feel like it's so much easier...

I guess I will need to make some tests once I have a longer tsuka, and compare.

Thanks for the advice!

[ReKru]

In my two years of Kendo I always struggled with certain techniques that require subtle, yet quick hand movements. Harai waza being one of them. Now when I grip the tsuka higher I feel like it's so much easier...


hmmm ...

"Too much right hand".

(best to ask sensei - or "Mr. Sneaky Kote Fonsz San", but if waza feel easier when using the right hand more or differently, I guess you're still doing them with too much of the right hand)

Personally, I prefer the longer tsuka for suburi and to have more oomph when needed and because it's easier to make swings look 'controlled', but it's basically just because I'm lazy.

[Raindrop]

hmmm ...

"Too much right hand".

(best to ask sensei - or "Mr. Sneaky Kote Fonsz San", but if waza feel easier when using the right hand more or differently, I guess you're still doing them with too much of the right hand)

Personally, I prefer the longer tsuka for suburi and to have more oomph when needed and because it's easier to make swings look 'controlled', but it's basically just because I'm lazy.

Oh yes, lazy! I like that option :D

I don't think I'm using my right hand (although I will check!),... when I do controlled men uchi at home I usually just hold the right hand losely until tenouchi.

I dunno, it just feels less "constricted" in a way. Just really like that's where my right hand is supposed to go but normally can't because the tsuba is in the way.

Will definately ask "Mr. Sneaky Kote Fonsz San". lol

[Halcyon]

It's not a bad thing to experiment, whether it's different tsuka length or different types of shinai. God knows I've done my fair share. But I've come to the realization that certain dimensions of the shinai are that way for a reason. It's a kind of "happy median," if you will.

Having said that, I don't know how tall your are (or how long your arms are), but as a previous poster mentioned, you might actually want to shorten the tsuka a little bit. Many people find that it helps with tenouchi because it's easier to keep your left arm straight without your right hand slipping down from the tsuba at the moment of impact.

[Raindrop]

It's not a bad thing to experiment, whether it's different tsuka length or different types of shinai. God knows I've done my fair share. But I've come to the realization that certain dimensions of the shinai are that way for a reason. It's a kind of "happy median," if you will.

Having said that, I don't know how tall your are (or how long your arms are), but as a previous poster mentioned, you might actually want to shorten the tsuka a little bit. Many people find that it helps with tenouchi because it's easier to keep your left arm straight without your right hand slipping down from the tsuba at the moment of impact.

I'm 168cm (66.1 in) and my arms are (when standing in a T form, measured from fingertip to fingertip) 172.5 cm (67.9 in). Yes, it appears I'm a monkey girl... I blame the East-German proximity to Tchernobyl! :tongue:

I defy DaVinci:

"the length of a man's outspread arms (arm span) is equal to his height "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvian_Man

[ReKru]

Oh yes, lazy! I like that option :D

Well, it's not really an option. :p



I don't think I'm using my right hand (although I will check!),... when I do controlled men uchi at home I usually just hold the right hand losely until tenouchi.

Hard to judge over the internet (you still owe us a visit to Mayence - there's a seminar in December .. don't force me to involve "Mr. Sneaky Kote Fonsz San" .. that will not end well!), but I always think my right hand is loose enough and I always hear the "too much right hand" comments from several sensei - then I focus again and it gets better, then I forget it and get kicked again. One day my right hand shall be limp as a biscuit in a pool of milk, but until then, I guess I overuse it.



I dunno, it just feels less "constricted" in a way. Just really like that's where my right hand is supposed to go but normally can't because the tsuba is in the way.


That arm thing is just one 'test' - been shown different ones from different sensei and the results do vary. On the other hand it's neither very difficult nor very expensive getting a replacement tsukagawa.

[Raindrop]

Hard to judge over the internet (you still owe us a visit to Mayence - there's a seminar in December .. don't force me to involve "Mr. Sneaky Kote Fonsz San" .. that will not end well!), but I always think my right hand is loose enough and I always hear the "too much right hand" comments from several sensei - then I focus again and it gets better, then I forget it and get kicked again. One day my right hand shall be limp as a biscuit in a pool of milk, but until then, I guess I overuse it.

I plan to come, unless it's on the 20th!! (is there a set date yet?)

I will pay extra attention to my right hand tonight and see what I can alter before I change the tsuka.



That arm thing is just one 'test' - been shown different ones from different sensei and the results do vary. On the other hand it's neither very difficult nor very expensive getting a replacement tsukagawa.

Ok. I must ask about different tests as well!

[hyuna]

I am not sure why people are so hostile to the idea of some people needing a longer tsuka when shortening tsuka is so common.

I believe that the common wisdom is that shorter tsuka is good for attacking waza, specifically things like tobikomi waza, and longer tsuka favors ooji-waza and fighting closer in. This makes intuitive sense. Shorter tsuka means longer blade and narrower distance between the hands, which makes it easier to re-e-e-a-ch without slipping your right hand. Longer tsuka moves your right hand closer to the center of mass of the shinai, which makes maneuvering the shinai for things like kaeshi-waza easier and shortens the blade which makes the timing on things like debana-waza more forgiving.

I am not sure what was meant in what you read about "moving the pivot point closer," but to me the effective result sounds backwards. Because longer tsuka moves the center of mass of the shinai closer to your hands, I would expect it to make the shinai feel lighter, which matches what Byrd sensei said.

[Halcyon]

I'm 168cm (66.1 in) and my arms are (when standing in a T form, measured from fingertip to fingertip) 172.5 cm (67.9 in). Yes, it appears I'm a monkey girl... I blame the East-German proximity to Tchernobyl! :tongue:
Hahaha. Well, monkey girl or not, I don't think your arms are so long that you should need to lengthen your tsuka. Usually these things tend to work themselves out as your technique gets better. Doesn't mean you can't experiment with different types of shinai or tsuka lengths, of course.

[JByrd]

One other thing to consider when changing your grip is that moving the hands farther apart makes it easier (and more tempting) to use a push-pull technique with the hands. What I mean is that the strike finishes with the right hand pushing forward, and the left hand pulling back. My understanding of fundamentals is that the hands should be moving together, not in opposition. Both hands should move downward, and outward toward the opponent, for maximum effect.

[Raindrop]

One other thing to consider when changing your grip is that moving the hands farther apart makes it easier (and more tempting) to use a push-pull technique with the hands. What I mean is that the strike finishes with the right hand pushing forward, and the left hand pulling back. My understanding of fundamentals is that the hands should be moving together, not in opposition. Both hands should move downward, and outward toward the opponent, for maximum effect.

Yes I will keep that in mind! I realized yesterday that it's probably my tsuba, it's one of those really thick leather ones. When I put on a regular plastic one it's already better. Also the two 39er shinai I have do have a bit of a longer tsuka than just 38 so I'll stick with those for now until I can get my hands on a 39er length tsuka I will experiment with that. :)