MUSASHI - THE DREAM OF THE LAST SAMURAI to premiere at Waterloo Festival

[Aeoran]

The 2009 Waterloo Festival for Animated Cinema in Kitchener-Waterloo, Canada will be featuring a powerful lineup including the premiere of the critically-acclaimed 2009 anime film MUSASHI - THE DREAM OF THE LAST SAMURAI, from Mamoru Oshii (Ghost In The Shell) and the fantastic anime studio Production I.G.

Miyamoto Musashi (c. 1584-1645) was a Japanese master swordsman who developed the niten-ichi ryu technique, and forged the idea of bushido. He fought countless battles during the traumatic years of the Tokugawa-Toyotomi conflict, which marked the course of Japanese history. In his final years, he would write his masterpiece on military strategy, The Book of Five Rings.

Other premieres and notables include the premiere of Studio Khara's REBUILD OF EVANGELION 2.0: YOU SHALL (NOT) ADVANCE and Studio 4C's FIRST SQUAD - THE MOMENT OF TRUTH, as well as other incredible films from all around the world.

The Festival runs Nov. 19-22, 2009. Full details and ticketing are at http://www.wfac.ca.

[pgsmith]

Hey Scott, you should try to make it. You might actually learn something about Musashi! :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Musashi was single-handedly responsible for bushido? Cool beans!

I'm guessing "countless battles" if you can't count to 60 or so...

[Bokushingu]

just a few weeks ago I watched those three movies about him. they were really good. About how accurate were the movies?

[b8amack]

I thought he barely fought in any battles. Mostly duels... and even many of those are suspect.

[ScottUK]

He fought in a number of major campaigns.

Please supply details of suspect duels, Mr Time Traveller... :rolleyes:


Hey Scott, you should try to make it. You might actually learn something about Musashi! Hehe go away.

[willszenith]

I thought he barely fought in any battles. Mostly duels... and even many of those are suspect.

Yeah the winter and summer campaigns in Osaka , yup they barely battles eh?


please list the barely fought battles?

[ScottUK]

please list the barely fought battles?Sekigahara was a pissy little fracas.

Just Tokugawa, Musashi and a handful of others having a bit of a Queensbury Rules melee in the park, between the swings and the roundabout.

[willszenith]

Sekigahara was a pissy little fracas.

Just Tokugawa, Musashi and a handful of others having a bit of a Queensbury Rules melee in the park, between the swings and the roundabout.

yup, and he was supposed to be at the shimabara revolt, which turns out to be some kid who kicked his football over the neighbours fence, and the neighbour wouldnt give it back...

yup barely battles up there with waterloo, when napoleon played mahjong with wellington before tea...

[ScottUK]

...whereas Hitler should have played more Risk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpcxfsjIIbM).

[ender84567]

without even looking at the youtube i think I can safetly say 'oooh its a bit cold'

[b8amack]

Please supply details of suspect duels, Mr Time Traveller... :rolleyes:

Hehe go away.

Because I implied that I was a time traveller.... :rolleyes:

So, you're saying there isn't doubt about the details of his duels? Interesting. I'm not trying to pass myself off as a Musashi scholar, and so may well be wrong, but I was under the impression that the ambush where he defeated the Yoshioka school... that it had become a certain amount of truth wrapped in the whole cloth of legend over the years. Since you are such a stickler for facts, please point me to the indisputable evidence of exactly what happened.

Likewise there's his supposed defeat (referenced in that Warriors tv show, most recently that I've seen) by the jo fighter, whose name I could google, but why deny a keener the chance to bust it out later? Did it happen? I don't know. I just know that there are people who dispute that it happened.

I would consider these issues alone enough to warrant my earlier comment about his duels being suspect.


Yeah the winter and summer campaigns in Osaka , yup they barely battles eh?


please list the barely fought battles?


I said, and I quote "I thought"... before you do a fanboy attack on me, what part of that sentence

A) Implies that I am an expert, or without doubt about the way things unfolded?

B) Implies that he "barely fought" in the battles he did take part in, or that those battles "barely" qualify as battles? I was responding to the "countless" battles claimed. I thought he really didn't fight in that many, compared to some. Certainly could be wrong.

[ScottUK]

So, you're saying there isn't doubt about the details of his duels?No, I am requesting you tell me which duels (of which there are apparently many) you consider suspect - and why...

[willszenith]

Because I implied that I was a time traveller.... :rolleyes:

So, you're saying there isn't doubt about the details of his duels? Interesting. I'm not trying to pass myself off as a Musashi scholar, and so may well be wrong, but I was under the impression that the ambush where he defeated the Yoshioka school... that it had become a certain amount of truth wrapped in the whole cloth of legend over the years. Since you are such a stickler for facts, please point me to the indisputable evidence of exactly what happened.

Likewise there's his supposed defeat (referenced in that Warriors tv show, most recently that I've seen) by the jo fighter, whose name I could google, but why deny a keener the chance to bust it out later? Did it happen? I don't know. I just know that there are people who dispute that it happened.

I would consider these issues alone enough to warrant my earlier comment about his duels being suspect.




I said, and I quote "I thought"... before you do a fanboy attack on me, what part of that sentence

A) Implies that I am an expert, or without doubt about the way things unfolded?

B) Implies that he "barely fought" in the battles he did take part in, or that those battles "barely" qualify as battles? I was responding to the "countless" battles claimed. I thought he really didn't fight in that many, compared to some. Certainly could be wrong.


Im no fan boy of musashi, there is far to much myth around him , and all sorts of stories to wade through before any sort of truth reveals itself.

But you were simply corrected if you want to get pissy , thats your choice.

but you are right in one respect he didnt fight in that many battles it certainly wasnt double figures, but the battles he did he played an active role and they were huge battles in terms of size.

I recently did a talk on Ishida Mitsunari for museum research, and the japanese student before me did a seminar on understanding the myths of musashi, and all he drew was its fact, covered in myth ,sugared in legend.

Lets agree to disagree, and a budo nod of respect to each other ok?

[b8amack]

No, I am requesting you tell me which duels (of which there are apparently many) you consider suspect - and why...

No, you're mocking me over a fairly mild statement. But whatever.

[ScottUK]

I guess the show's over.

Off to keiko - seeya later y'all...

[SanguineKendoka]

I watched an anime once...It was called Akira and was mad as a goose on stilts.










TETSUOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[pgsmith]

No, you're mocking me over a fairly mild statement. But whatever
While I don't want to try and answer for Scott (he hates it when I move his mouth like a Jeff Dunham dummy!), I would venture to say that he is simply pointing out that you spouted off stuff that you had no idea about. Since you only had minimal information about the subject of the original post, it would have been better if you had not said anything. However, there are several people on here that are members of the Niten Ichi ryu, the school that Musashi started. I'm sure they would be willing to answer questions about his life and philosophies if you're curious.

[Usagi San]

don't know any japanese,:cool2: but could these (http://musashi-souken.com/trailer.html) be the trailer(s)?
Anyone?

[xvikingx]

Many "facts" about Musashi's life are disputed especially his involvement in Sekigahara or either of the Osaka castle sieges. Not to mention his lineage, DOB, and place of birth. I don't understand what all the ruckus over what b8mack "thought" he heard is all about. He was not too far off.
Relax sword cultists.

I thought he barely fought in any battles. Mostly duels... and even many of those are suspect.

[Anonymous]

tetsuoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

kaaaneedaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[xvikingx]

Spoooooooooooooon!

Oops. Wrong cartoon. Albiet a better one.

[Rennis]

Spoooooooooooooon!

Oops. Wrong cartoon. Albiet a better one.

The comic was even better "Hey look, ninjas" "Go away kid, we aren't ninjas, we are bushes"

[Ron Beaubien]

Many "facts" about Musashi's life are disputed especially his involvement in Sekigahara or either of the Osaka castle sieges. Not to mention his lineage, DOB, and place of birth. I don't understand what all the ruckus over what b8mack "thought" he heard is all about. He was not too far off. Relax sword cultists.

I would have to agree.

Even most Japanese people cannot separate the historical Miyamoto Musashi from the one portrayed in Eiji Yoshikawa's well-known novel.

The last time I checked there were at least three different grave sites (two in Kumamoto and one in Okayama) that claim Miyamoto Musashi is buried there:

http://www.geocities.jp/sizen_junnosuke/bangai_musasi2.html

http://www.hakaishi.jp/tomb/tomb/04-3.html

http://park16.wakwak.com/~tk1/33_634_haka.html

It is quite clear that even the latter part Miyamoto Musashi's life is disputed.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[Roberto]

I would have to agree.

Even most Japanese people cannot separate the historical Miyamoto Musashi from the one portrayed in Eiji Yoshikawa's well-known novel.

The last time I checked there were at least three different grave sites (two in Kumamoto and one in Okayama) that claim Miyamoto Musashi is buried there:

http://www.geocities.jp/sizen_junnosuke/bangai_musasi2.html

http://www.hakaishi.jp/tomb/tomb/04-3.html

http://park16.wakwak.com/~tk1/33_634_haka.html

It is quite clear that even the latter part Miyamoto Musashi's life is disputed.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

That's interesting, but could it be possible that part of his corpse was buried in those places?
What I knew is that his main grave is in Kumamoto, and that about an hour from Munakata (Fukuoka) is another grave that has part of Musashi's corpse, which were given to a student of Miyamoto Musashi from his son Iori. (There is something about in a Kendo World magazine).

[Wesley Myers]

Has anyone in Japan seen this movie yet? (I'm presuming it has been out there for a while.)

[tyler]

oh man, I can't believe this is going down in my hometown of Whoatown and I'm half a world away and can't peep it. Hells bells.

[Ron Beaubien]

That's interesting, but could it be possible that part of his corpse was buried in those places?

It is possible, but no one really knows. That is the whole problem and my point.

Just a quick look at The Book of Five Rings as translated by William Scott Wilson (and I'm looking at the bilingual Japanese/English edition here), from the first part of the introduction on page 15 reads:

"We have very few reliable facts about Musashi's life. His own words on the subject fill less than a page at the beginning of The Book of Five Rings, and later accounts such as the Nitenki, or the Tamba Hokin Hikki, were all written eighty to a hundred and thirty years after his death."

Most of what was written about Musashi was written down long after his death by people who didn't actually interact with him. Even at that time, his life story had made had been fictionalized in bunraku and kodan, further confusing matters. (See pages 197-199 of The Lone Samurai: The Life of Miyamoto Musashi, William Scott Wilson.)


What I knew is that his main grave is in Kumamoto, and that about an hour from Munakata (Fukuoka) is another grave that has part of Musashi's corpse, which were given to a student of Miyamoto Musashi from his son Iori. (There is something about in a Kendo World magazine).

Then we may have another grave site as well.

Two of the grave sites I provided links to earlier are both in the Kumamoto city area. The third I mentioned was in Okayama, Musashi's birthplace.

In The Lone Samurai: The Life of Miyamoto Musashi, William Scott Wilson wrote on the topic of the grave sites on page 267:

"There are two official burial sites for Musashi in Kumamoto today: the Eastern Burial Mound, which is situated in the suburbs and is considered to hold his remains; and the Western Burial Mound, which is closer to the center of the city and may simply be a simply be a marker to the great man. But there are uncertainties with the Eastern Burial Mound as well: some say that Musashi's body was eventually dug up and cremated, and that his ashes were then re-interred at the site; others say that his ashes were spread elsewhere. Still others declare that his body was not buried there at all, but was taken by his disciples to a secret grave still unknown to anyone."

Unfotunately, I've never seen a version of The Lone Samurai in Japanese and the English description is vague because Wilson didn't use the actual names of the burial sites. I believe he is referring to Musashizuka (武蔵塚) as the Eastern Burial Mound and the ruins of Taishoji (泰勝寺), the temple that has the other grave site for Musash in Kumamoto city, as the Western Burial Mound. However, I'm not certain. Wilson makes no mention of the third site in Okayama or of a possible fourth burial site near the city of Fukuoka.

I have a lot of Japanese sources as well, but I'm supposed to be spending time with my family at the moment and not on the computer, so I don't really have time to translate them at the moment.

I still don't understand why b8amack, whoever he is, got such a rude reception here. Every paper on the life of Miyamoto Musashi by modern historians that I have seen confirms that there is a lot of doubt about the duels and battles that Musashi was said to have taken part in.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[absenteekendoka]

...whereas Hitler should have played more Risk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpcxfsjIIbM).

You mean he wasn't? :)

[ScottUK]

I have to agree about much of MM's birth/life/burial etc - but as for his battles/duels, we have to go on the writings of the day (even the Nitenki is waaay too late for us to take as complete truth) and oral/written history from schools such as Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, Hozoin-ryu, Ogasawara-ryu etc.

My criticism of b8amack was his comment about 'many suspect duels' whereas, to be honest, duels where we know the facts (or as close as we can know them) are few and far between. Of his 60 matches, he only recounts half a dozen or so of any real worth in the development of his hyoho. I just can't see how 'many' of this handful that are recorded works out. Maybe he just threw a flippant comment out there?

There's nowt cultish or fanboy about it - we have a connection to Musashi and where facts are facts (and also where there are unknowns), I would like to see these made clear to all - rather than relying upon Yoshikawa's novelised version of events. I have started to do this on the HNIR-UK site.

[still learning]

, Hozoin-ryu, ....

Any relation to Hoisin Sauce....?

VERY good on crispy duck!

[b8amack]

whereas, to be honest, duels where we know the facts (or as close as we can know them) are few and far between. Of his 60 matches, he only recounts half a dozen or so of any real worth in the development of his hyoho.

How does this disagree in any way with what I said? How are you not agreeing with me?

[Wraith]

Any relation to Hoisin Sauce....?

VERY good on crispy duck!

Hmmmmm, tasty!

[ScottUK]

How does this disagree in any way with what I said? How are you not agreeing with me?I just don't see how many of his duels can be considered suspect when only a handful are known about by anyone alive today.

[b8amack]

I just don't see how many of his duels can be considered suspect when only a handful are known about by anyone alive today.

If only a handful of his duels are even known about, then how are many of his duels not suspect? I'm not trying to be an asshole, here. It just really seems to me that we're arguing over whether a tomato is tasty, or just tastes good.

[ScottUK]

I feel like I am starring in Rain Man.

[b8amack]

But are you Cruise or Hoffman?

[ScottUK]

Hahahaha I tried to rep you for that...! Brilliant comeback.

[still learning]

But are you Cruise or Hoffman?

NEITHER.........

Scott is the fart in the 'phone-box.............

[Aeoran]

Gratifying to see all of the intelligent discussion going on about Musashi's real life - because it hits on exactly why Mamoru Oshii (Patlabor 2 / Ghost In The Shell / The Sky Crawlers) wanted to create this film:

"I have been interested in Musashi for a while. Nobody is less known than a famous man. He's a hugely popular figure, everybody knows him, even outside of Japan. But I'd rather say, people believe they know about him. In fact, most of what people "know" about Musashi comes from novels and movies. Musashi’s image has been interpreted, modified and fabricated in different ways and for different purposes during three centuries. He was a multi-talented man who lived in a very particular period. But Japanese people tend to admire those who achieve perfection in one craft or discipline, and are strangely indifferent if not suspicious toward universal men. That’s why I wanted to portray a Japanese who was very different from contemporary Japanese people. A man whose effectiveness is not confined to a specific country or era."

This film is an attempt to consider who this man is, the man who became a legend.

[Kim Taylor]

This film is an attempt to consider who this man is, the man who became a legend.

If we had perfect knowledge of everything Musashi ever did, to the minute, for his entire life we would still not know who the man was.

We can't read minds and we can't know why or how anyone does what they do, we can only know the results of what they did.

There are stories about Musashi and there is a school of sword still existing which we can only assume relates back to the man. We get from those what we can and use them as we can for our own purposes.

This is the same for all the arts. I have spent 20 plus years with my sensei but I can't say I know who he is. I can know what I have learned from him over the years, and I can act on what I've learned. By my actions my own students may have a bit of a hint at what I've learned, but they won't know who I am or who my sensei is.

What I'm trying to say here is that arguments about what is fact in any teacher's life is largely irrelevant. What matters is what lesson the stories give, what lesson the martial art teaches now, today, to the student.

Kim.

[ScottUK]

Nice post, and I agree.

However, even though we cannot really know/understand the fellow or really seperate mush of the fact from fiction, I would be happy if we can just address the nonsense that surrounds him that was created by popular literature.

[still learning]

...seperate mush...

Were you attempting sepArate and muCh.......?

What a time of day to be totally bladdered.........

[ScottUK]

Accessing KWF through a PDA + fat fingers = occasional slipups and FUBARs.

[The great I AM]

Gratifying to see all of the intelligent discussion going on about Musashi's real life.Sarcasm will get you nowhere.

[Aeoran]

No sarcasm intended! Honestly intended.

[Kokoro777]

So this film is an 'animentary' on Musashi? That sounds interesting. Since I can't read Japanese can anyone tell me when the DVD/Blu-Ray will be available in the Europe and if it is likely to have English subtitles?

http://musashi-souken.com/index2.html

[atgm]

depends on who licenses it in Europe. If someone licenses it, it will probably get subtitles as well as a dub. As it is, I don't see anything about English subtitles. The Japanese release date was February 3.

[Des]

I have to agree about much of MM's birth/life/burial etc - but as for his battles/duels, we have to go on the writings of the day (even the Nitenki is waaay too late for us to take as complete truth) and oral/written history from schools such as Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, Hozoin-ryu, Ogasawara-ryu etc.

My criticism of b8amack was his comment about 'many suspect duels' whereas, to be honest, duels where we know the facts (or as close as we can know them) are few and far between. Of his 60 matches, he only recounts half a dozen or so of any real worth in the development of his hyoho. I just can't see how 'many' of this handful that are recorded works out. Maybe he just threw a flippant comment out there?

There's nowt cultish or fanboy about it - we have a connection to Musashi and where facts are facts (and also where there are unknowns), I would like to see these made clear to all - rather than relying upon Yoshikawa's novelised version of events. I have started to do this on the HNIR-UK site.

It may also be worth while for folks to read the Kenji Tokitsu book, regarding the myths and historical accuracies revolving around Musashi's life as well.

[Kokoro777]

depends on who licenses it in Europe. If someone licenses it, it will probably get subtitles as well as a dub. As it is, I don't see anything about English subtitles. The Japanese release date was February 3.I assume there won't be much of a market for it Europe so its unlikely to be distributed over here. Shame...