Interested in Kendo or Wannabe Samurai? [Archive]

Musha

21-01-2004, 06:46 AM

I was already like that a year before I started Kendo :D,
I really love Japan and my aim is to be 100% fluent in Japanese and live there. But I love the new Japan as much as the old.

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting to be a samurai. I think of a samurai as some one that tries hard in every thing he does with no fear, samurai also have other skills like art and literature they are also kind and polite smart and diligent. I was watching a documentary about Miyamoto musashi and a young Japanese girl of 14 doing kendo said "I admire Miyamoto musashi because he tried very hard with what he did I and want to be like that".

Although this view could be as unrealistic as the samurai in some comics. The seven samurai was even partly about washing away the myth of the samurai. In one part, one samurai said on another question about a battle "I survived hiding in a ditch". But I think some part of the myth are still worth thinking about.

The people that you are talking about are thinking of the fantasy badly viewed point of view of the samurai from comics and badly translated anime. If you fight in an aggressive arrogant and showy way and are unwilling to learn it is bad for kendo. You will be a slow fighter and it will be hard for you to get far probably get bored and start Ninjitsu :D.

Please don't class every one that likes traditional Japan in the same way.

John W

21-01-2004, 06:53 AM

I am very interested in Japanese culture simply because it is far removed from my own.

Kendo gives you an insight into Japanese culture but that is about it. To truly appreciate another culture you have to be there in person.

Shazzanzzz

23-01-2004, 03:14 AM

not talking about people who wants to be a samurai, if you just think about people who wants to learn kendo or iaido because they want to beat people up on the street, there's something wrong with them. Kendo doesn't really apply in the real world anymore, in the physical sense, because doesn't matter how strong you get, if someone has a gun, you can't win, that is especially true in America, where guns are so easy to get. I really don't like it when i see people who think like that.

ALI G

23-01-2004, 03:17 AM

mingshi

23-01-2004, 09:58 AM

With 37 beginners registering in my London dojo last Tuesday, this Last Samurai + Kill Bill phenomenon is far more amazing then the movies themselves. (18 more on Friday, as I have been told --Ouch!)

I said to my kohai, "Can you tell who is going to stay?" I don't know whether a bigger group will affect the 90% drop-out rate.

There is a starting point for everyone when it comes to taking up a martial art. From wanting to keep fit, self-defence, to books and the mass media, there is something you want to get out of it in the first place. At the first few months people are just trying to find what they want. Some realizes it may not be as what they expect kendo to be like. I would say it is rather stupid to start jumping into the dojo right away without watching a class. :confused2

Do they have the commitment? Are they going to see beyond the obvious? There are also plenty of reasons why people want to leave. Can you stay as a Samurai-wannabe forever? Probably those who take Samurai as their training goal will later find that there is no such thing, and then they left. But if they instead discover the true beauty of what kendo is, and the hard work behind it, then they'll probably stay for longer.

There are a lot of people out there who trains in martial arts, who are so engaged into the "self" part of the training, and forget about how their training would mean in a larger picture. Would a 1000 suburi help you understand more about kendo, or would you rather spend the time reading about the Japanese culture? Afterall it is swinging bamboo sticks, yelling and hitting people. You may be doing the "to mold the mind and spirit" bit, but what about "to contribute to the development of culture"? You simply can't detach the training from its principles.

Samurai -blah, blah, blah... Just how many of them beginners, besides the movies, actually read an article or two about Japanese history? (I m not even talking about a book) Seriously too much philosophy on military glory, loyality and honour can sometimes leads to Rape of Nanjing, Kamikaze and all the nasty parts. If you say "I love the Japanese culture", you cannot escape from knowing and be aware of the opposite side of the coin.

It's like wearing some Nike trainers without knowing the sweatshop in SE Asia. :rolleyes:

My 2 pence.

xvikingx

23-01-2004, 12:21 PM

With 37 beginners registering in my London dojo last Tuesday, this Last Samurai + Kill Bill phenomenon is far more amazing then the movies themselves......
My 2 pence.
Yeah, preach it sister!
Wait, I just had a break through. Tell all the samurai newbies that if they want out, they have to face West and commit seppuku.
:wink:

JimB

24-01-2004, 02:30 PM

I would say it depends on the individual and their state of mind.

Using myself as an example: I eat Japanese food, drink sake, and practice Kendo. I am also learning to speak the Japanese language and write in hiragana and katakana, and read extensively about feudal Japan. I wouldn't even think of comparing myself to a samurai or even a native Japanese person though, I just love the culture and the many wonderful Japanese people I have met. It takes a total separation from reality to occur for a person to want to emulate another culture's antiquated social class in a present day society.

I feel this separation can begin for some people when they lack a logical reason to emulate that culture's social customs and values. Personally, I hope to spend a year in Japan just soaking up the culture, meeting new and interesting people and if possible practicing Kendo. If I lacked this solid, logical reason to be learning all this stuff (attending Kendo classes, preparing for my September trip, etc.) then I could see these things being viewed as more of an obsession than a healthy interest in another culture. IMHO thats where you have to draw the line or a person could be on the slippery slope towards becoming the wish-fulfillment saddo you mentioned.

Katsuya

24-01-2004, 04:10 PM

Its mainly about the need to learn. Part of the reason is also i am kind of influenced by the culture of japan. I don't practice kendo just to go out and beat up people and boast crap. If i wanted to beat people up why not just pull a strap out and pop someone and send them to the high heavens? Or just hide in the shadows and shank some homeboyz with a carving knife?
learning kendo is to chill myself out and let it guide me with my mental and physical self.

--it is hard to determine a silent person whether they are stupid or smart. But when that persons speaks to give an opinion. It is easy to determine.--

Kenshin Himura

26-01-2004, 05:35 AM

*shrugs* I'm only 14.. and I'm interested in this stuff.. After my little agrgument with another member, xvikingx, I thought to myself "Am I really following a fantasy, or do I really want to do this?" and so far... I could care less about "swinging a big sword around". I wouldnt mind if the best I could work with would be a tonto (although I do own 2 katana and a bo-staff). But I'm not mainly interested in swinging big swords around and invading places and being all "big". I like the Japanese culture. It interests me much, including Bushido and such. Well.. anyways.. I need to learn Japanese too, since I'm going to try and get into an exchange program to Japan to learn about thier culture and such. *shrugs*

Seta

29-05-2004, 08:17 AM

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to be like a samurai either. Being a samurai doesn't only mean you practice kenjutsu , which by the way wasn't the only martial art they practiced. They were skilled in various martial arts (e.g. Kyudo - The Way of the Bow). And what about the seven tenets of Bushido.

Gi: The concept of honesty and justice, a samurai believes in justice not in others but himself. A true samurai knows no shades of grey in the question of honesty and justice. There is only right and wrong.

Rei: The concept of polite curiosity. Samurai have no reason to be cruel. A samurai is courteous even to his enemies, without this outward show of respect we are no better than animals. A samurai is not only respected by his strength in battle but also in their treatment of other men.

Yu: The concept of heroic courage. Considered one of the main reasons samurai have such a place in the celestial order. Always remember that heroic courage is not blind, it is intelligent and strong. Replace fear with respect and caution.

Meyo: The concept of honor. After all is said and done there is only one judge of a samurai's honor, himself. Always remember you cannot run from yourself.

Jin: The concept of compassion. Through training a samurai becomes a mighty warrior. A samurai must use that gift for the good of all. He helps his fellow men at every opportunity, if the chance does not come up he will actively seek an opportunity.

Makoto: The concept of complete sincerity. When a samurai says he will perform an action it is as good as done, nothing can keep him from his duty. There is no promise or swearing only the fact that speaking and doing are the same action.

Chugo: The concept of duty and loyalty. This all breaks down in to responsibility, responsibility for the clan, responsibility for ones actions and responsibility to those in his care.

trainedkilla

29-05-2004, 09:59 AM

You mean I can't be a real samurai????

:)

Wout

29-05-2004, 06:07 PM

Gi: The concept of honesty and justice, a samurai believes in justice not in others but himself. A true samurai knows no shades of grey in the question of honesty and justice. There is only right and wrong.

Rei: The concept of polite curiosity. Samurai have no reason to be cruel. A samurai is courteous even to his enemies, without this outward show of respect we are no better than animals. A samurai is not only respected by his strength in battle but also in their treatment of other men.

Yu: The concept of heroic courage. Considered one of the main reasons samurai have such a place in the celestial order. Always remember that heroic courage is not blind, it is intelligent and strong. Replace fear with respect and caution.

Meyo: The concept of honor. After all is said and done there is only one judge of a samurai's honor, himself. Always remember you cannot run from yourself.

Jin: The concept of compassion. Through training a samurai becomes a mighty warrior. A samurai must use that gift for the good of all. He helps his fellow men at every opportunity, if the chance does not come up he will actively seek an opportunity.

Makoto: The concept of complete sincerity. When a samurai says he will perform an action it is as good as done, nothing can keep him from his duty. There is no promise or swearing only the fact that speaking and doing are the same action.

Chugo: The concept of duty and loyalty. This all breaks down in to responsibility, responsibility for the clan, responsibility for ones actions and responsibility to those in his care.
Gi: yeah the stuff what fundamentalism is made of.

Rei: you might call it two-faced to be courtious to your enemy

yu: courage is something for those who wanna die young, no matter how intelligent

meyo: selfrightiousness at it's best

Jin: Do you mean all ppl or just the ones who aren't evil, cause a samurai doesn't know a shade of grey between black and white

Well I have to admit this might be a bit harsch but you might also interpret what you said this way, not that I believe they were ment that way offcourse, I hope so :)

Principles are no good things to live by if you only know what they do mean, as important is to know what they do not mean. (e.i. the principle of freedom doesn't give you the freedom to just take what you want from other ppl)

D'Artagnan

01-06-2004, 08:34 PM

It's not just the wannabe samurai that are so irritating, but all the wannabe nihonjin as well.

It really bugs me when you see westerners pretty much pretending to be japanese.

saying they 'prefer' sushi, that they 'prefer' J-music, and when they have somebody else's mon on thier dou.

don't get me wrong, i don't think there is a problem with having an interest in japanese culture. but when you do something, just because it is japanese, that sucks!

Personally, as well as my native culture, i find japanese culture incredibly interesting, however, i find sushi repusive and sake is even worse, and who 'prefers' green tea, nobody. I also like wearing my shoes in the house, and speaking English whilst in England. And yes I also like the idea of wearing a familiy crest on the dou, so i have MY shield shaped family crest on my dou.

This is not intended to be derogatory to japanese culture, just to those gaijin who would 'prefer' to be japanese.

p.s. WHO ARE YOU SETA?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LNGUYEN

01-06-2004, 10:53 PM

Many people look into Japanese culture and find wonderful. However, they forget other cultures are fascinating as well. Chinese culture are equal or even exceed in sophisticate so that many Japanese cultures were copied from Chinese. Talking about honor, good service, and many other things, don't you think other cultures like Western, Middle East, and many other countries have them too. Do you understand your own culture completely so that you ignore it and try to learn other culture? Japanese culture like many other culture, it had positive and negative points as well. Today people all over the world include Japanese forget about honor in their own lives doesn't mean that you can be honor with your own culture. I know some people who were fascinated about Japanese culture and they wanted to come to live in Japan. After they had been in Japan for sometime, they found Japanese society as today is not what they expect before and it left a huge disappoinment in them. So why Japanese culture is popular in Western hemmisphere? better communication, easy access to Western media comparing to, let say Chinese. Kendo is a good thing in Japanese culture, so I love it but it doesn't mean I want to become Japanese as well. If your culture have something good, I will learn it too. By the way, I find American, English, Dannish, French, Arab, Israel, and the rest of the world cultures are fascinating too.

mingshi

01-06-2004, 10:53 PM

And what about the seven tenets of Bushido.

You got the same "codes" from those saying of Confucius (around 500 BC). The main idea is for everyone to consider less for their personal benefits, but to contribute to the great commonwealth.

From there to around 1100 AD where neo-Confucianism flourished, ChuTsi did a lot of writings making the concepts into orthodoxy /code. Needless to say the codes are for gentlemen/intellectuals, who study and write, rather than anyone who picks up the sword and become a "Samurai"...

The lesson is, only quote after you've really done some readings.

Hotei

02-06-2004, 12:21 AM

Mingshi - With respect, the tennets that Seta quoted were correct for the situation. He (or she) did not make any claim that these were the original or the only tennets, but instead (I believe) was trying to point out that, while one does not have to be Japanese to practice Kendo, one must try to follow the rules of the game. The game is Japanese, and the rules are Japanese; at least in their contemporary form.

When we sign on, regardless of our national origin, we are obligated to follow the tennets that were set out by the people that were actually the founders of the art, by "art" I mean Kendo. I'm sure you would agree that, even though his writings have immeasurably molded and improved the vision (for all people, not only kendoka) the Venerable Confuscious was not a kenshi. I don't believe that Seta was intentionally attempting to exclude his writings. I would point out that he did not mention the Buddha, or even Musashi Myamoto, two figures equally (if not more) prevalent in the teachings put forth by Kendo practice.

Unfortunately, many people (speaking internationally, not specifically) simply have not been taught even the basics of respect (which, again, I believe was the point of the post you quoted.) If they had we would not have any use, whatsoever for a "flames" section. I am certain that, while I have not posted anything inflamatory, someone will be angered by it and will lash out in some manner - This is where mutual respect should take place. I blame this lack of education on the poorly trained Senseis that do not teach respect before even teaching a new student how to hold a shinai. Specifically, those that put competition above historical relavance.

As all of our ascended Masters have tried to teach us for thousands of years, the more respect we show for one another, the more we will receive.

<gassho>

Hotei

02-06-2004, 02:45 AM

D'Artagnan - Putting your own crest on a do?!? I think that's the best idea I've heard in some time. You are epitomizing the ideals of family loyalty by putting your own family crest on your do! I wish more people would take that path instead of trying to "morph" themselves into being Japanese, because guess what? If you're not born there, you're not from there!

It is so easy (it's a relative term) to follow the tennets of bushido without having to artificially create Japan in your home. Does that mean that people should not live a Japanese lifestyle if they want to? Absolutely not. It means that you should take what you like, if you can do it respectfully (as you have,) and integrate it into your own practice.

I'm off to find a Sparks family crest to put on my do! Thank you very much for the idea!

<gassho>

D'Artagnan

02-06-2004, 06:01 AM

I'm off to find a Sparks family crest to put on my do! Thank you very much for the idea!

<gassho>

not a problem!

finally i have befeited someone for once...

good luck mate!!

Musha

02-06-2004, 09:27 AM

I am really interested in Japan and Japanese language/culture too with a lot of things in my house related to Japan :silly:. I don't want to be Japanese because you should be happy with who you are.

I don't believe you can say that Japan just fits into the world with other cultures like ones in the middle east or parts of Europe. And you can't say Japan is copied from China! :D. I am interested in the similarities with Japan and England that seem quite alike.

Both similar sized islands with the same type of climate
One/two similar religions (That I don't want to go into hehe :))
Both with civil wars and many many other things..

China is very different and you also have to remember Japan was also inspired by Korea. Who wears Hakama in China? :)..

JSchmidt

02-06-2004, 09:56 AM

[QUOTE=Musha]

Both similar sized islands with the same type of climate
[/QOUTE]

Huh?..well, they both got 4 seasons at roughly the same time, but that's about it.

kenshin13

02-06-2004, 10:04 AM

I was already like that a year before I started Kendo :D,
I really love Japan and my aim is to be 100% fluent in Japanese and live there. But I love the new Japan as much as the old.
Same here Musha! :D

Musha

02-06-2004, 05:29 PM

I forgot about that post Kenshin :D.

JSchmidt, I mean Japan is not like Russia or a tropical country with harsh cold or extreme heat. It is very hot! in summer but seems to be a mild climate like England around Kanto.

mingshi

03-06-2004, 12:35 AM

Mingshi - With respect, blah blah blah...
On re-reading Seta's original post, the things he said has little to do with kendo.

China is very different blah blah blah...
I limit my typing time to 10 minutes, listing similar things I spotted from the Japanese culture to the Chinese:-

1. Government departments in modern Japan are still using the names from Tang Dynasty (600-800 AD, roughly).
2. Entrance exam to work for the Japanese government is similar to how exam was like in China from Han to Ching Dynasty (around 30 BC - 1911AD). It's called "Ke-juu" or something like that.
3. Influences in Architecture (check out all the great temples)
4. Language (in particular, writing / calligraphy)
5. Food (eating a lot of rice, using chopsticks, ramen...)
6. Fashion: check out hairdos of Geisha. They are the same type from women in Tang Dynasty.
7. Philosophy of Confucianism is still being studied.
8. Buddist monks sail to/from both Japan and China to seek enlightenment (and thus spreading / branching out the religion)
9. ....hmm run out of time

I am not a particularly nationalistic person, just historically more aware. ;)

not-I

03-06-2004, 01:09 AM

[...] things I spotted from the Japanese culture to the Chinese: [...] I am not a particularly nationalistic person, just historically more aware. ;)
Actually, i venture to guess that most educated Japanese would have no problem admitting that their culture was heavily influenced by China. The "myth of Japanese uniqueness" has long been shattered by historians. However, they also point out that Japanese culture adapted and assimilated a number of foreign ideas and practices to fit its idiosynchrosies (similar to the Chinese).

Take the history of Zen Buddhism. Introduced to China from India in the 6th century, it gradually became popular over other forms of Buddhism, because the Chinese preferred a practical approach over Sanskrit scholasticism. Also, many of the concepts were similar to home-grown philosophical Daoism. Thus the Chinese mixed Dhyana Buddhism with Daoism to form and develop Ch'an. This was later exported to Japan, where it became known as Zen (the Japanese pronounciation of the "Ch'an" ideogram) and was subjected to more formalization and development and exercised a great influence on Japanese culture. Ch'an is very Chinese and Zen is very Japanese, but the source in this case is India.

Cultural interactions and cross-fertilization are common everywhere. In the case of China-Japan it was mostly been a one-way street, though not always.

not-I

03-06-2004, 05:40 AM

Returning to the original question...

I suppose what I'm really asking is, at what point does a person stop having a (fairly) healthy interest in another culture, and become just another wish-fulfillment saddo?
I suppose the objective answer is when they begin dwelling in a fantasy world and lose touch with social reality, i.e. start showing neurotic symptoms.

The subjective answer is when they get on the rest of our nerves. As kendoka in the West, we are part of a sub-culture and can be quite geeky ourselves, and thus get worked up about our "thing" going superficially mainstream and about "wannabes" who don't want to put all the hard work in. Hence the popularity of threads with "wannabe" in the title, such as this one.

It's ok for people to be a little eccentric. The world needs more freaks!
But make kendo your reality, not your fantasy.

Musha

03-06-2004, 06:29 AM

No need to read some peoples posts because you know what they are going to say>Mingshi :).

Tang Dynasty (600-800 AD, roughly).

Han to Ching Dynasty (around 30 BC - 1911AD).

They are the same type from women in Tang Dynasty.

Tell me some thing that did not happen round 1000 years ago.. I don't think one country in the world is unique and hey, i heard that the human race started in Africa then spread..

I have not been to China but have been to China towns in both Manchester and Japan and they were both the same. And not the same as Japan! Other nice things but, No sushi, no udon, no Kendo, no bonzai, calligraphy is different, Kanji is different, no Hiragana no katakana... Lol.

What is England is unique by the way?

Neil Gendzwill

03-06-2004, 06:59 AM

What is England is unique by the way?
They like mushy peas.

mingshi

03-06-2004, 07:12 AM

no bonzai
Bonzai is known as Penjing since Tang Dynasty.
calligraphy is different
You haven't seen the different styles/ schools of Chinese Calligraphy then.
I have not been to China but have been to China towns in both Manchester and Japan and they were both the same.
I have been to both Disneyland in Paris and Tokyo. Yes they are also the same.
Tell me some thing that did not happen round 1000 years ago...
I am not sure what you meant when you compare the UK to Japan then, if climate was also in consideration.

Things I can think of (also a 10-minute time limit) on the interaction between China and Japan in a more comtemporary period:-

1. WWII and everything around it (e.g. Rape of Nanking)
2. Sino-Japanese War 1890s
3. Some time after the 1911 Revolution against Qing/Manchurian's monarch rule (led by Sun Yat-sin, who was educated in Japan as a medical doctor btw), the last emperor, Pu-Er, was restored in the 1930s as a puppet-emperor by the Imperial Japanese Army in the NE of China.
4. The biggest groups of "foreign residents" in Japan is from Korea/China.
....etc etc etc.
...Kendo in Taiwan is on the upper world league because of Japanese occupation as well.

JSchmidt

03-06-2004, 08:20 AM

Musha, Chinatowns are very similar all over the world:)...I think they might get their inspiration from China.

Jakob

dorkusxmaximus

03-06-2004, 09:26 AM

You sure are stubborn aren't you, Musha hahahah?

Shazzanzzz

03-06-2004, 11:33 AM

Who wears Hakama in China? :)..

Actually, Chinese did wear hakama like skirts in and a bit before Tang dynasty. It's not exactaly like hakama, but, they're cleated like hakama. But, it's more of a style that a person choose to wear, instead of just one type like japan. Also, they usually wear pants inside.
The traditional japanese clothing are close to ancient chinese clothing, especially close to tang dynasty, because that's when japan sent peoeple into china to learn chinese culture.
If you go to china town right now or china, our traditional clothing right now is very different from the ones they used to wear around tang dynasty, because of outside influence mostly, since china was partly or totally conqured by outside races (all of them part of china now) in between tang dynasty and now. What we condisder 'traditional clothing' right now is from ching dynasty.

Shazzanzzz

03-06-2004, 12:05 PM

musha
If you studied japanese language AT ALL, they would tell you from the start that they made hirugana and katakana because the monks were too lazy to write out all those chinese. Japanese kanji is not different at all from chinese. Kanji MEANS Chinese(Han) word if you want to translate it directly.

Kendo? Chinese do have kendo, they've been using the term since the war periods before han, chin dynasty. But it's not kendo as YOU, know it. The way of the sword apply to any sword use, not just katana. Anyways, katana isn't even considered a sword, it's a one sided blade, it's not a 劍, it's a 刀. That's what Japanese call it too. So, saying kendo is kinda strange actually, can anyone tell me why?

Seiza too, chinese used to sit like that before they discovered a thing called chair, which japanese people chose to ignore for some reason.

Udon, 烏龍, pronounced (oolong) in chinese, yep, same as that tea you drink. I don't think it has anything to do with the tea, but, same words. It means dark, black dragon. Anyways, it's just a type of noodle. You know how many kinds there are in China? You probably only know lomein/ramen.

Guess what, if you didn't know, go (the board game) is chinese too, purely chinese, it's the most ancient borad game in chinese history, been playing that for like 3000+ years. Some people think it's Japanese, which I find a little insulting.

Just to be clear, I really like Japanese culture too, and I do think it is somewhat different from chinese culture. But, I don't like how you make comments about something you don't understand at all. I mean, just look at the bad examples you've written.

The only thing you got right is Chinese people never made any sushi.

Hotei

04-06-2004, 11:49 AM

They like mushy peas.And yet, after tens of thousands of years they are still not sophisticated enough to eat them off a knife.

Hotei

04-06-2004, 01:11 PM

Mingshi - If you would do me the courtesy of not adding your own text to the parts of my posts that you quote ("blah blah blah") I'd really appreciate it. It's kind of impolite. When I said "with respect" I meant it. I was ackowledging that you had a fair concern, but that maybe you had misunderstood Seta's intention. To belittle that was borderline rude even if that was not your intention.

Now, feel free to disagree with me, but please don't assume that it means that you're right. The fact that you have an opinion doesn't mean that you are correct. Do you honestly believe that the tenets of Bushido (the subject of the post in question) have "nothing to do with kendo" (your words). That's, well, not what I've come to expect from reading some of your other posts.

No, Seta was not terribly articulate in his post, but again, his post had nothing to do directly with China or Confuscious, which was your main bone of contention. . . He tried to present a very common set of values that have been prominent in Japan (AND China, AND Korea, et cetera, et cetera) and should be prevalent in the lives of ALL kendoka and you took it as an afront to all pre-feudal-Japan literature and philosophy. Lighten up; his intention was not to spit on Confuscious' grave.

I've lived in China. I've lived in Japan. They both fascinate me for the same reasons, and If you want to give us a history lecture, I'm all for it. But please don't change the meaning of a post in order to make an example out of it.

I have no problem with you slamming musha about his serious historical inacuracies, but at this point it looks like he's just trying to goad you into a sparring match. Spend your 10 minutes on something more productive, like this:

Musha, you lack sight
China has mothered Nippon
accept stick to head

Your head full of rice
Your ears stuffed with warm udon
Chinatowns, indeed

Bonsai is Chinese
Noodles are Chinese, as well
Manchester is not

Please pull your head out
So Mingsha can yell "MEN, MEN!"
And thus offer blows

mero

04-06-2004, 02:54 PM

Certainly China was the center of civilization in for Asia regardless of whether you were in Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Formosa, etc.. But China birthed Japan???? Ugh. God that kind of ethnocentrism, or China-centrism is difficult to stomach. It's a mistake to view obscure historical topics such as origins of nations with modern notions of national identity and motives stemming from therein. What we know as "china" was made up of thousands of different ethnicities and cultures, each with its own customs and language. Even now, ethnic minorities exist in abundance whereever you go in China and people look vastly different from those who live in the northeast and those who live inthe south(mind you there are outright nonasian ethnic minorites too). Same stew of culture and languages existed to a lesser degree in Japan and Korea, so to figure what came from where and who gets to claim credit for it is indeed an exercise in futility. Who knows what mix of conquered nations and ethnicities make up Chinese, Korean, Japanese identity in this perspective? For purpose of discussion at hand, I think this point falls heaviest on China since it's vastly by far the most diverse of the three.

mingshi

04-06-2004, 09:29 PM

The fact that you have an opinion doesn't mean that you are correct.
Same to you.

I was only pointing out that barely any samurai wannabe has no historical knowledge of what it meant to be Bushido, rather they take things from the surface of the context, in this case, "code of the samurai", and acknowledged that Samurai has very noble believes... but in fact this "code" is shared amount the intellectuals in various oriental culture.

China birthed Japan????
No. It was probably Izanagi-no-Mikoto and Izanami-no-Mikoto. If in doubt go check under the History bookshelfs in the library.

Shazzanzzz

04-06-2004, 09:43 PM

For purpose of discussion at hand, I think this point falls heaviest on China since it's vastly by far the most diverse of the three.

Obviously... Look at the size of China and size of Japan and Korea.

There's 5 main ethnic groups in China. Han (the chinese chinese), Manchurians, mongolians, the muslims out in the west, Tibetans.

Fomosa... Haven't heard anyone call Taiwan that ever outside Taiwan. People from Taiwan are Chinese anyways.

Who cares about how many ethnic groups there are in China anyways. HOw many are ther in the US? Or old Soviet?

The fact is, Japan sent people to China to learn and imitate Chinese culture. After 1000+ years, of course it's going to be different from China, since China changed, and Japan changed also.

Also, I don't think Japan was ever conqured by another nation, except american occupation.

mingshi

04-06-2004, 10:15 PM

I was only pointing out that barely any samurai wannabe has enough historical knowledge of what it meant to be Bushido, rather they take things from the surface of the context, in this case, "code of the samurai", and acknowledged that Samurai has very noble believes... but in fact this "code" is shared amount the intellectuals in various oriental culture....
(typo correction)

LNGUYEN

04-06-2004, 10:39 PM

And again, even though Japanese sent people to learn Chinese in the ancient time but not everything Japanese was Chinese. Shinto was one example, very Japanese. Like other countries around China, it was influented from the Chinese but Japanese had their own distintive culture too. I am Vietnamese by birth and if anyone told me that my culture was combine from Chinese and French, I will kick his A..

Did I mention Sushi is very Japanese Too as same as Sony, Panasonics, Toyota, Mitsubishi but not Radio Shack :smiley:

D'Artagnan

04-06-2004, 10:46 PM

Bonzai is known as Penjing since Tang Dynasty.

I recently heard, from a good authority, a very interesting theory that Bonsai/Penjing (althougth there are subtle differences between the two) actually originated in Egypt...

Hotei

04-06-2004, 11:09 PM

Mero - Sorry to have stated it so briefly, but it's difficult to put as much detail as you did into 5 syllables. :rolleyes:

No, I don't believe that every ethnic group from the mainland came together to magically birth a male and a female to go forth and populate Japan. But we do know 2 things for sure 1) Geologically speaking, China is older than Japan and has been populated longer. 2) the ancient inhabitants of Japan (and their modern descendants) came from the sino-asiatic mainland that we know today as "China". See, it just doesn't flow as well for haiku.

I'm sure someone has at least tried to discredit it by now, but the opening line I used was borrowed directly from the title of an IGJ (International Genetics Journal) from about 1987. When genetic testing was first coming into it's own, someone submitted an article to the IGJ and they published it. The article caused quite a stir, as it showed a direct genetic decendancy of Japan from Mainland China. (*GASP*)

Were they more specific than that? I couldn't tell you; I was supposed to read it for class, but the article simply wasn't interesting enough to hold my attention. The most shocking part of it to me was that someone actually took the time to write down that they had proof of a link between China and Japan. In my opinion, that's like "proving" a connection between cooked green beans and raw green beans. But again, that is only my opinion, and I'm not a great historian like some.

Mingshi- Did you really say "Same to you"?!? Okay, let's see. . . How do I counter such an attack? Ahh, here we go -

"I know you are, but what am I?" :wink:

not-I

05-06-2004, 08:12 AM

So, saying kendo is kinda strange actually, can anyone tell me why?
Check out this thread: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=43248#post43248 especially Neil Gendzwill's first reply. The very term "kendo" tips its hat to China in a way.

Hotei

05-06-2004, 12:26 PM

Yeah, I've heard them used interchangably for years. My sister used to manage a Century M.A. (It's all crap - you've been warned) and in her wholesale catalogs they were listed as "boken/bokuto".

At first I thought it was like the plural, or the group name (kenshi / kendoka) but my Sensei says bokuto when speaking in the singular, and that's really all I need. Well, that and a small sack of 50's.

mero

06-06-2004, 11:08 AM

Who cares? You answer your own question by restating original point of my contention which I clearly explained in my previous post. Following the illogic of using modern notions of nationality such as your use of "chinese culture" may in fact be Jurchen(via the Manchus) or Mongolian or Hun, Turkish, etc.. All the China-centric talk in this thread suffer from this. To say that all of Asian culture was heavily influenced by China in appreciation of dynamic of claimed influence is one thing BUT to ignorantly claim China as progenitor of other nations with egocentric comments like China birthed Japan is quite another!

btw. Practically Japan didn't have to be conquered or another way of putting it is that Japan was conquered ad hoc since many Japanese kingdoms in their glory days gladly and happily sent emmissaries offering themselves as vassals to China. Of course such higher pursuits went down the drain post Heian era at around 1100's as Japan was overrun by country bumpkin warlords that birthed militaristic culture(away from cultured, confuscius scholar society) until Hideyoshi.

(Your Question)Who cares about how many ethnic groups there are in China anyways. HOw many are ther in the US? Or old Soviet?

(Answer to Your Question)The fact is, Japan sent people to China to learn and imitate Chinese culture. After 1000+ years, of course it's going to be different from China, since China changed, and Japan changed also.

mero

06-06-2004, 11:21 AM

I doubt that and I'd be happy to check out any source material if you can provide any. If anything genetic descendency was probably from Northeast Asia i.e. Manchuria, Northeast China and Korea which were distinct from China throughout history.

The article caused quite a stir, as it showed a direct genetic decendancy of Japan from Mainland China. (*GASP*)

mero

06-06-2004, 11:30 AM

...as well as micronesian, ainu, korean immigrants from 4th century when paekje fell, etc.. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/052155067X/qid=1086488673/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-5832202-7905548?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Hotei

06-06-2004, 11:52 AM

MERU- The first reply I intended for this space was snipent, cold and rude. Your arrogance is annoying, but certainly not cause for attack. Any problem you have with me is just that; yours.

I am sorry that I have offended you with my humorous haiku, and I hope that you will one day understand that it was neither meant as an attack on the genetic purity of the Japanese people, nor an affront to your delicate sense of historical correctness.

If you would like to do a little reading on the subject of genetic decendancy, you may walk into any state-owned medical school library and ask to be shown to the journal department. They will even be happy to show you how to use the codex-medica and numerous other medical journal indices and search engines. As a tax payer, access to medical libraries is one of the priveledges afforded you.

Shazzanzzz

06-06-2004, 12:51 PM

(Your Question)Who cares about how many ethnic groups there are in China anyways. HOw many are ther in the US? Or old Soviet?

Well, for China and US and USSR, they are ONE nation. It does not matter how many ethnic groups are in ONE nation does it? or in the world? If they can live peacefully together, no one would care how many there are. It's only a problem when they fight against each other.

(Answer to Your Question)The fact is, Japan sent people to China to learn and imitate Chinese culture. After 1000+ years, of course it's going to be different from China, since China changed, and Japan changed also.

What does this have anythign to do with 'my question?' That 'question' is more of a statement anyways. This 'answer' is also just a statement stating that Japanese people DID go to china to learn chinese culture. I don't really care that they did that. Actually, I think it speaks very highly of Chinese culture for them to do that. The only time you would copy something is when you can't think of something better.

And you know what, I still don't care about how many different ethnic groups there are in the world. The more the better, makes the world a more interesting place. The fact that Japanese culture derived very heavily on Chinese culture has nothing to do with the fact how much i care about how many different ethnic groups there are.

I said in previous post, I really do like Japanese culture, else i wouldn't be doing kendo. I am pretty sure I've liked every culture that i have had the privilige to learn anything about.

Shazzanzzz

06-06-2004, 12:58 PM

Check out this thread: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=43248#post43248 especially Neil Gendzwill's first reply. The very term "kendo" tips its hat to China in a way.

yea... that's pretty much i thought was the reason. Just thought there could be a better reason.

Twobitmage

06-06-2004, 01:22 PM

well im japanese...and my family descends mostly from monks but SOME were samurai

I think that justifies my japanness :cool:

mero

06-06-2004, 02:04 PM

You seem to be confused. Other than my last response, I was never responding to your post. In fact, I've never even read your haiku. It's unfortunate that you find it necessary to resort to sarcastic rips. I'll refrain from responding in kind.

p.s. 1. "delicate sense of historical correctness"? Hardly. Informed, educated understanding dispells ignorance. 2. I could care less about biology behind genetic descendency. You should remember that you who made claims about a published study. I'd love to get a citation to check it out.

MERU- The first reply I intended for this space was snipent, cold and rude. Your arrogance is annoying, but certainly not cause for attack. Any problem you have with me is just that; yours.

I am sorry that I have offended you with my humorous haiku, and I hope that you will one day understand that it was neither meant as an attack on the genetic purity of the Japanese people, nor an affront to your delicate sense of historical correctness.

If you would like to do a little reading on the subject of genetic decendancy, you may walk into any state-owned medical school library and ask to be shown to the journal department. They will even be happy to show you how to use the codex-medica and numerous other medical journal indices and search engines. As a tax payer, access to medical libraries is one of the priveledges afforded you.

mero

06-06-2004, 02:20 PM

Hotei

07-06-2004, 12:37 AM

MERU- How can you claim to know anything about history when you can't remember what you did day-before-yesterday?

"Musha, you lack sight
China has mothered Nippon
accept stick to head"

This was the haiku (that you did, indeed read) that got you on your little soapbox in the first place. What a strange, argumentative little person you are. Feel free to rant until you're blue in the face, I'll not respond to you again.

I wanted to know a little more about you, so I read some of your other posts. You obviously just like to fight; how tiresome.

I'll not go back and do the research for you, as I'm not the one that wants the information. Again, you can go to any state-owned medical library and use it for free. They'll even be happy to look it up for you. Enjoy, and goodbye.

<ignored>

Hotei

07-06-2004, 12:53 AM

Shazzanzzz -Give it up, bro. If you read some of his other messages you'll see that any kind of response will just turn into a new fight. You can't win.

He'd probably argue that dinosaurs were the invention of evolutionists. Save your breath.

mero

07-06-2004, 06:06 AM

Hotei, you really dig yourself deeper in a hole of ignorance with every post.

And if you really believe China is progenitor of Japan with such passion give me historical fact and intelligently support your opinion rather than cowardly hiding behind immature personal insults and rips that have nothing to do with topic of discussion at hand.

In fact, why don't you enlighten us all and tell us some more about published studies that you know nothing about. THose are always convincing...

MERU- How can you claim to know anything about history when you can't remember what you did day-before-yesterday?

"Musha, you lack sight
China has mothered Nippon
accept stick to head"

This was the haiku (that you did, indeed read) that got you on your little soapbox in the first place. What a strange, argumentative little person you are. Feel free to rant until you're blue in the face, I'll not respond to you again.

I wanted to know a little more about you, so I read some of your other posts. You obviously just like to fight; how tiresome.

I'll not go back and do the research for you, as I'm not the one that wants the information. Again, you can go to any state-owned medical library and use it for free. They'll even be happy to look it up for you. Enjoy, and goodbye.

<ignored>

mero

07-06-2004, 06:18 AM

LOL. actually dinosaurs fossils were shabbily slapped together and in effect "created" by early paeleontologists. Such obviously fake "dinosaurs" have long been dispelled although traditional understanding of dinosaurs are indeed being exposed as being "creations". T.Rex is not the king anymore and is now a lowly, slow, head to the ground scavenger and birds have become descendents of dinosaurs rather than reptiles. Go figure!

He'd probably argue that dinosaurs were the invention of evolutionists. Save your breath.

Shazzanzzz

07-06-2004, 03:34 PM

I'm not sure how helpful it is for you to respond to your own post while entirely ignoring my post. Where's the responsiveness in that?

In any case, if you're claiming that Japan "copied" Chinese culture, what cultures indeed make up "China" is a very relevant question. E.g. It's like England rudely claiming to be progenitor of legal system in all english speaking nations when in fact, it was the conquerors from France responsible for English law and most english legal terms have french origins.

As for USSR being ONE nation... Well... I'll be civil and just leave that one to you...

It is a relevant question that what 'makes up' chinese culture. But, if you look through out Chinese history, because of the desert to the north, siberia to the far north, sea to the east, himalayans to the west... China had been relatively isolated from outside influence. The only influences they have had are from those clans around what WAS china (sometimes conqured and included in the map), but where mostly are part of China now. So, you can say they were part of Chinese culture if you really wanted to, even though you probably would say it doesn't. Also, when those clans conquered part or even all of china, only Mongolians being an exception i can think of, all pretty much learned Chinese culture, teachings, and philosophies to rule the chinese people, and thus eventually become Chinese themselves.
For most parts, instead of other cultures influencing Chinese culture, Chinese culture has influenced and included those people as part of Chinese cutlure.

What Chinese culture is based on right now is still confuciousm and daoism written around 2500 years ago. Nothing has changed unless you want to bring the government system and modernization into it, but, that has happened to every country in the world.

Buddhism did effect Chinese culture a great deal. But this is different what you're saying about what English-french, because, Chinese people have nevered claimed Buddhism as their own. And Buddhism doesn't stirr away at all from confucious and laozi teachings anyways, they are similar in many ways in fact.

Anyways, Japanese say they have their own culture, but, i don't think they would deny that their culture is derived from chinese culture. So, why are we even arguing about this anyways. Your english french example isn't the same situation as Chinese -- Japanese. And Japanese legal system do have chinese origins. I think someone posted already about this.

USSR... They don't exist anymore, i meant they were under one central rule, kinda. I don't really know about it well at all, so, i'm not going to get into it. If you want to you can, i don't care. I would like to hear something about it.

As for new fights, doesn't matter. I'm bored from doing all thses stuipd school work anyways. why am i taking summer classes...

nonamehandle

08-06-2004, 04:25 PM

You got the same "codes" from those saying of Confucius (around 500 BC). The main idea is for everyone to consider less for their personal benefits, but to contribute to the great commonwealth.

From there to around 1100 AD where neo-Confucianism flourished, ChuTsi did a lot of writings making the concepts into orthodoxy /code. Needless to say the codes are for gentlemen/intellectuals, who study and write, rather than anyone who picks up the sword and become a "Samurai"...

The lesson is, only quote after you've really done some readings.

mingshi,

i would like to find out where these are quoted by confucius.
reply with some references if you would.
thanks

nonamehandle

08-06-2004, 04:51 PM

nonamehandle

08-06-2004, 05:05 PM

Same to you.

I was only pointing out that barely any samurai wannabe has no historical knowledge of what it meant to be Bushido, rather they take things from the surface of the context, in this case, "code of the samurai", and acknowledged that Samurai has very noble believes... but in fact this "code" is shared amount the intellectuals in various oriental culture...snip...

hmmm...your last comment as to the codes being for the intellectuals in the various cultures and together with your prior post that the codes are from confucius...
it would seem that confucius did practice the sword art, at least to some degree, as would be the case with most of the nobles during his time. as i remember it, it was customary for the people of this class to carry a sword around-though this became more and more ceremonial.
infact, as you i'm sure already know, the "shi" of kenshi, is also what is the same chracter that refers to scholars(though the etymology of the word is widely thought to refer to a class of warriors, as opposed to scholars, infact much like the samurai)

just haring my 2 cents

mingshi

08-06-2004, 10:09 PM

infact, as you i'm sure already know, the "shi" of kenshi, is also what is the same chracter that refers to scholars(though the etymology of the word is widely thought to refer to a class of warriors, as opposed to scholars, infact much like the samurai)
Not sure how to translate the character " 士 " as it has multiple connotations, so I won't say an intellectual is the same as a samurai, just because the wording is the same.

Confucius at his times still lived in feudalism, long before China was unified under the 1st emperor. He was also a teacher for many things, but mainly Etiquette, Music, Archery, Equestrian, Writing and Maths. It was some of his students got to write his teachings down that made up the very first 4 books on Confucism (the man himself didn't wrote anything down). Nevertheless there are some others were in the military.

Before you think that I am trying to preach Confucism here, I should clarify that I don't favour his philosophy much. A lot of ideas in Confucism are too ideal and not practical. Even leaders in his time won't believe his methods would work. In the end the most suppressive ruler conquered and unified China (in Qin Dynasty to be exact... or you can refer to the new Zhang Yi-miao movie "Hero"). Despite that Confucism was a chosen believe for many Dynasty from Han onwards, and the text was treated as a must read for everyone who was a student.

As for references, I am not sure which language you are looking for. Here's a simple one in Japanese:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~du1t-mrkw/http/toku.htm

... and some overview of Confucism in Chinese:
http://www.jbscentre.com/chinese_culture.htm
http://harmonia.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/~cculture/library/hengyu/002-2.htm
(this is a heavy read)

I am not familiar with English sources, but I am sure there are plently of books on the subject in your library... :smiley:

mero

09-06-2004, 04:56 AM

Shazzanzzz

09-06-2004, 01:57 PM

China was isolated from outside influence??? Do you believe Han Chinese is a real term too? Motivation behind communist creation of a "Chinese" identity was fueled by the fact that China had been conquered since 1600's until modern times and ruled by Manchus who are descendents of Jurchens as I mentioned this before although you seem to be lost on such facts.

http://www.uglychinese.org/indx.htm#ethnicity

Obviously you didn't read my post through. I did mention China getting conqured multiple times by out clans.

Anyways, how many people are there that would say they're Manchurian these days? Why? Because Manchurians basically became Chinese. Manchurians didn't change much if anything of Chinese culture.

Han chinese is a real term. It refers to Chinese people of central china, basically central and southeast china. People wouldn't say that they're 漢人, Han person, anyways. That's a term rarely used these days if at all. The only time i've heard people say it is when they tell me I don't look like a 漢人, more like Mongolian/Manchurian. Which is part true, since 1/4 of my blood is from that region of China.

Hotei

10-06-2004, 04:06 AM

SHAZZANZZZ - I didn't know that, so I looked it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese). Incidentally, what does your screen name mean?

Hotei

10-06-2004, 05:07 AM

Interesting insight into where the name "Japan" may have come from. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan)

mero

10-06-2004, 10:07 AM

Circular highschool reasoning.... You chronically use modern notions of "Chinese" out of context which was the basis of my first post into this forum.

BTW. "Han Chinese" is a communist creation used as propaganda to minimize Manchu rule. Don't believe everything you're told.

Obviously you didn't read my post through. I did mention China getting conqured multiple times by out clans.

Anyways, how many people are there that would say they're Manchurian these days? Why? Because Manchurians basically became Chinese. Manchurians didn't change much if anything of Chinese culture.

Han chinese is a real term. It refers to Chinese people of central china, basically central and southeast china. People wouldn't say that they're 漢人, Han person, anyways. That's a term rarely used these days if at all. The only time i've heard people say it is when they tell me I don't look like a 漢人, more like Mongolian/Manchurian. Which is part true, since 1/4 of my blood is from that region of China.

mingshi

11-06-2004, 12:36 AM

"Han Chinese" is a communist creation used as propaganda to minimize Manchu rule..
WTF?

Han-jin as a Class

Under Mongolian rule during Yun Dynasty (1227 - 1367), Hanjin (or those based north of Changziang River, including the Koreans) were there 3rd class in the ethnic hiearchy system. Mongolians were on top of the list, followed by Xi-Mo (roughly those with different eye colour, ie. Turkish and Europeans). The 4th and the lowest class is called Nam, which included everyone in the south.

Brief History of the People's Revolution against the Mauchurians

Manchurian's rule (1644 - 1911) in Ching Dynasty has little to do with Communism (aka Mao's). The monarch was overthrown in 1911, leaded by Sun Yat-sin, who was from the Canton / Guangdong area, and was educated in Hong Kong and also Japan.

Yuan Shih-kai, a dictator and was networking with the Imperial Japanese, took over the country after the fall of the Manchurians.

Around 1921 Mongolia became a independent country, back by the Russians.

Until then China was still much of a warlord state. Sun Yat-sin established himself in Canton after the death of Yuan. He formed alliance with the Communists.

In 1924 Imperial Japan set up a puppet administration called Manchu-goku in the NE, and the last emperor of Ching, Puyi, was made a fake emperor (aged 12). Imperial Japan still occupied the NE (there were also occupation from the Germans) during the entire revolution period to the WWII.

Chiang Kai-shek was the successor of Sun, and there went the Kuomintang Army (Nationalists). Also there was up rising of Gongchandong (Communists, leaded by Mao), and around 1927 the two "broke up". Chiang's Nationalists were right-wing and had dictatorship ideals. Chiang signed a few treaties with Imperial Japan to let them stay in the Manchu-goku, because his main interest was to control the Red Army who were gaining support from the peasants whilst withdrawing to the hills.

Japan troops started invasion in the NE and Shanghai at the 1930s. Chiang declared war against Imperial Japan in 1936.

Civil wars between the two parties resumed shortly after 1945 (when Allied Forces defeated Imperial Japan). Chiang's Nationalists were weak, despite being backed by the US. The Red Army became offensive and took over many major cities helded by the Nationalists. And in the end Chiang had to flee to Taiwan with the Nationalists in 1949.

(from memory and also online references for dates and spellings)

mero

11-06-2004, 05:45 AM

No need for profanities.

I was surprised that my pointing out ethonocentrism a la sinocentrism in this thread was met with such ugliness. It's unfortunate when that happens and people stoke their egos with sarcasm and highschool oneliners that initiated ugliness in this thread.

"Han Chinese" is a modern term in nominal reference to Han Dynasty. It's term that only goes back a hundered and a half years at most made popular during tumultuous times during turn of 20th century to distinguish Ching dynasty from Chinese and later used in creation of Chinese national identity. Mind you that regardless of its origin "Han Chinese" as an ethnic reference is a total creation of convention given overwhelming diversity of cultures and language that make up the Han "ethnicity".

As for your reference, I haven't come across anything that would suggest etymology of Han in "Han Chinese" is Yuan term "Hanjin". From what I know Mongolian references to "Han" is probably not to Han of Han Dynasty but to various Kingdoms in Northeast Asia(Altaic language) as far north as siberia and throughout Korean peninsula that called themselves various "han" states. E.g. South Korea is called Han Guk(nation) in reference to Han Nation of Northeast asia(ended around 4000BC). Do you have any specific etymology of "Han-Jin"? I'd be happy to hear it.

WTF?

Han-jin as a Class

Under Mongolian rule during Yun Dynasty (1227 - 1367), Hanjin (or those based north of Changziang River, including the Koreans) were there 3rd class in the ethnic hiearchy system. Mongolians were on top of the list, followed by Xi-Mo (roughly those with different eye colour, ie. Turkish and Europeans). The 4th and the lowest class is called Nam, which included everyone in the south.

Brief History of the People's Revolution against the Mauchurians

Manchurian's rule (1644 - 1911) in Ching Dynasty has little to do with Communism (aka Mao's). The monarch was overthrown in 1911, leaded by Sun Yat-sin, who was from the Canton / Guangdong area, and was educated in Hong Kong and also Japan.

Yuan Shih-kai, a dictator and was networking with the Imperial Japanese, took over the country after the fall of the Manchurians.

Around 1921 Mongolia became a independent country, back by the Russians.

Until then China was still much of a warlord state. Sun Yat-sin established himself in Canton after the death of Yuan. He formed alliance with the Communists.

In 1924 Imperial Japan set up a puppet administration called Manchu-goku in the NE, and the last emperor of Ching, Puyi, was made a fake emperor (aged 12). Imperial Japan still occupied the NE (there were also occupation from the Germans) during the entire revolution period to the WWII.

Chiang Kai-shek was the successor of Sun, and there went the Kuomintang Army (Nationalists). Also there was up rising of Gongchandong (Communists, leaded by Mao), and around 1927 the two "broke up". Chiang's Nationalists were right-wing and had dictatorship ideals. Chiang signed a few treaties with Imperial Japan to let them stay in the Manchu-goku, because his main interest was to control the Red Army who were gaining support from the peasants whilst withdrawing to the hills.

Japan troops started invasion in the NE and Shanghai at the 1930s. Chiang declared war against Imperial Japan in 1936.

Civil wars between the two parties resumed shortly after 1945 (when Allied Forces defeated Imperial Japan). Chiang's Nationalists were weak, despite being backed by the US. The Red Army became offensive and took over many major cities helded by the Nationalists. And in the end Chiang had to flee to Taiwan with the Nationalists in 1949.

(from memory and also online references for dates and spellings)

Shazzanzzz

11-06-2004, 07:26 AM

oh my god...

Korean call themselves 韓 (han), chinese han is 漢. It's TOTALLY different words.

No need for profanities.

I was surprised that my pointing out ethonocentrism a la sinocentrism in this thread was met with such ugliness. It's unfortunate when that happens and people stoke their egos with sarcasm and highschool oneliners that initiated ugliness in this thread.

"Han Chinese" is a modern term in nominal reference to Han Dynasty. It's term that only goes back a hundered and a half years at most made popular during tumultuous times during turn of 20th century to distinguish Ching dynasty from Chinese and later used in creation of Chinese national identity. Mind you that regardless of its origin "Han Chinese" as an ethnic reference is a total creation of convention given overwhelming diversity of cultures and language that make up the Han "ethnicity".

As for your reference, I haven't come across anything that would suggest etymology of Han in "Han Chinese" is Yuan term "Hanjin". From what I know Mongolian references to "Han" is probably not to Han of Han Dynasty but to various Kingdoms in Northeast Asia(Altaic language) as far north as siberia and throughout Korean peninsula that called themselves various "han" states. E.g. South Korea is called Han Guk(nation) in reference to Han Nation of Northeast asia(ended around 4000BC). Do you have any specific etymology of "Han-Jin"? I'd be happy to hear it.

Shazzanzzz

11-06-2004, 07:31 AM

My point is, throught out chinese histroy, Chinese culture did not change because of outside influence. The basis are still the same. The only time China was conqured by another and didn't adapt Chinese culture, language, gov system is the Mongolians, Yuan dynasty. They treated Chinese people like 3rd class citizens, that's why their empire in china did not last long. By comparison, Ching dynasty did adapt chinese culture, and thus their empire lasted for hundreds of years. I get your point, i just don't agree with you, mero. You haven't even once pointed out what has effected chinese culture.

You should beg mingshi to give you some history lessons.

Shazzanzzz

11-06-2004, 07:34 AM

SHAZZANZZZ - I didn't know that, so I looked it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese). Incidentally, what does your screen name mean?

my screen name... don't mean anything. Old high school nickname. zzz i just added because i like to sleep. :)

Hotei

11-06-2004, 11:33 AM

"zzz i just added because i like to sleep."

A fine, upstanding past time. I try to do it several hours a week, in between kendo classes. :)

mero

11-06-2004, 12:34 PM

Shazzanzzz

11-06-2004, 02:39 PM

Calm down and think before you "oh my god" and rattle your brains for witty rips. You're supporting my position. Good grief.

How old are you? Try to contextualize discussion rather than trying to come up with rips all the time.

How am i supporting your position. 漢人, han ren, is the class mingshi was refering to, i looked it up. It's not 韓 (han of korea).

How old am i? How old are you. And, you obviously can't read chinese characters, so, what nationality are you?

Swissv2

11-06-2004, 02:47 PM

I always wanted to be a NINJA! :D

I think samurai stuff is kinda cool, but then you gotta worry about having a weapon and scared neighbors seeing you bouncing around like a rabbit in your backyard chopping trees down and yelling.

mingshi

12-06-2004, 01:23 AM

Not sure why I have to give out history lectures about a topic that I didn't even take at school...

Anyway, here we go. I may well mouth-feed you with the Korean history..

About the 4 Classes (for discrimination) in Yuan Dynasty
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/yuan/four-class-system.htm

Jin and Jurchens
Around 1270s, the previous Song Dynasty had moved to south of the River Chang-jiang. The original North Song Dynasty was destroyed by the Jin Dynasty. The Jin Dynasty was set up for only 12 years before they defeated the Liao Dynasty in the east. 2 years later the Jin-ren captured the last two Song Emperors, thus the remaining government moved to the south.

Jin was from the ethnic minority of Jurchens - which, later on in history, changed their name to Manchurians who established the Ching Dynasty.

Han Dynasty
What made the Han Dynasty strong was the fact that they finally defeated the Huns in the west, which was what the Great Wall built to protect the mainland from. Also during the same period of time was the rebirth of Confucism, as the emperors in the Han Dynasty was very keen in spreading the philosophy.

Korea
At around the end of the Qin Dynasty, there was record about people fleeing into "Hai-dong" area because of the chaoic in the mainland. In 194BC, one of the refugees (who was probably a noble/warload decendent) established the Wei's Chao-Hsien.

During the Han Dynasty in the Chao-Hsien Peninsula, there wasn't a unified country, but instead the land was divided into a lot of mini countries with groups like Ku-ku-rye, Wei, Han, etc. Under Han there were divisions like Ma-han, Chin-han, Pin-han, etc. 78 smaller countries.

Later Ma-han became Paik-chei, while Chin-han and Pin-han became Sil-la. When China progressed into the Tang Dynasty (618 AD - 907 AD), Chiao-Hsien Peninsula was at its Age of 3 Kingdom. In the north was the land of Ku-ku-rye, in the southwest was Paik-chei, the southeast Sil-la.

Paik-chei was defeated by Ku-ku-rye in 662 AD. In 668AD, Military forces from Tang Dynasty helped Sil-la to destroy Ku-ku-rye. That's when the Chiao-Hsien Peninsula finally unified into one big country.

During the 900AD the Peninsula was once again divided into 3 countries. But this time in 936 AD the civil war was over, and the country becomes the Kingdom of Corea.

In 1392 the Lee family took over and the country was named Chao-Hsien.
In 1897 Chao-Hsien's name is changed into Dai-han.
In 1910 Imperial Japan invaded the Peninsula and took over the country until after the WWII.
In 1953 the Peninsula was divided into North/South at the 38th parallel. Soth Korea is now known as Dae-han-min-guk.

Translation of names into Chinese Characters

Dynasty
Qin 秦
Han 漢
Tang 唐
Song 宋
Yuan 元
Jin 金
Liao 遼
Ming 明
Ching 清

Ethnics Minorities (some where consider foreign invaders in eariler history, but later on many became kingdoms with diplomatic relationships with the mainland)
The Huns 匈
Jurchen 女真
Manchuria 滿洲

4 Classes under Mongol Yuan Dynasty
Mongolians 蒙古
Colour-eyes 色目人
Han-ren 漢人
Nan-ren 南人
(What the Chinese called the Mongols was actually Ta-tan 韃靼)

Korea
Hai-dong 海東
Wei's Chao-Hsien 衛氏朝鮮
Chao-Hsien Peninsula 朝鮮半島
Ku-ku-rye, Wei, Han 高句麗、濊、韓
Ma-han, Chin-han, Pin-han 馬韓、辰韓、弁韓
Paik-chei 百濟
Sil-la 新羅
Corea 高麗
Dae-han-min-guk 大韓民國

mero

12-06-2004, 06:33 AM

Mingshi, what's up with the snot attitude? Ew. And give me some reasoning instead of pretentiously pasting historic fact. It's interesting stuff but for purposes of discussion at hand, it's mostly irresponsive and only further reveals the fallacy of using historic, modern nationalistic constructions out of context. Of course the repulsiveness comes in when it's used for purpose of patronizing Japanese culture or or any other cultures for that matter. I hope you find such sinocentrism and ethnocentrism in general unacceptable.

As for etymology of "Han Chinese", it would seem to me that Han-ren of Yuan dynasty is also a reference to Han Dynasty which would explain why the term was used at the turn of the century to create a modern Chinese identity while undermining Qing rule which goes back to my original point regarding conventions. Honestly, just giving Chinese character for this earlier would've prevented confusion.

As for Korean history not too sure why you're bringing this up other than as a strawman or to agitage another argument. There were no points of contention regarding Korean history. Only thing I would add is that 韓 of the han nations is not the beginning of Korean history and that much older references to origins of Koreans a different linguistic, cultural, national identity goes back much further. E.g South Korean flag comes from 桓國(7,197BC-3986) who's king was called the "red devil"(that's where korean soccer fans get this from) and built large mounds in Manchuria. Tomb mounds, from little ones that koreans still build to mountain-like royal mound were built for kings existed throughout history in Northeast asia, Korea and are even found in Japan.

Let me know if you have anything more to add. I'd be happy to hear it.

Not sure why I have to give out history lectures about a topic that I didn't even take at school...

Anyway, here we go. I may well mouth-feed you with the Korean history..

About the 4 Classes (for discrimination) in Yuan Dynasty
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/yuan/four-class-system.htm

Jin and Jurchens
Around 1270s, the previous Song Dynasty had moved to south of the River Chang-jiang. The original North Song Dynasty was destroyed by the Jin Dynasty. The Jin Dynasty was set up for only 12 years before they defeated the Liao Dynasty in the east. 2 years later the Jin-ren captured the last two Song Emperors, thus the remaining government moved to the south.

Jin was from the ethnic minority of Jurchens - which, later on in history, changed their name to Manchurians who established the Ching Dynasty.

Han Dynasty
What made the Han Dynasty strong was the fact that they finally defeated the Huns in the west, which was what the Great Wall built to protect the mainland from. Also during the same period of time was the rebirth of Confucism, as the emperors in the Han Dynasty was very keen in spreading the philosophy.

Korea
At around the end of the Qin Dynasty, there was record about people fleeing into "Hai-dong" area because of the chaoic in the mainland. In 194BC, one of the refugees (who was probably a noble/warload decendent) established the Wei's Chao-Hsien.

During the Han Dynasty in the Chao-Hsien Peninsula, there wasn't a unified country, but instead the land was divided into a lot of mini countries with groups like Ku-ku-rye, Wei, Han, etc. Under Han there were divisions like Ma-han, Chin-han, Pin-han, etc. 78 smaller countries.

Later Ma-han became Paik-chei, while Chin-han and Pin-han became Sil-la. When China progressed into the Tang Dynasty (618 AD - 907 AD), Chiao-Hsien Peninsula was at its Age of 3 Kingdom. In the north was the land of Ku-ku-rye, in the southwest was Paik-chei, the southeast Sil-la.

Paik-chei was defeated by Ku-ku-rye in 662 AD. In 668AD, Military forces from Tang Dynasty helped Sil-la to destroy Ku-ku-rye. That's when the Chiao-Hsien Peninsula finally unified into one big country.

During the 900AD the Peninsula was once again divided into 3 countries. But this time in 936 AD the civil war was over, and the country becomes the Kingdom of Corea.

In 1392 the Lee family took over and the country was named Chao-Hsien.
In 1897 Chao-Hsien's name is changed into Dai-han.
In 1910 Imperial Japan invaded the Peninsula and took over the country until after the WWII.
In 1953 the Peninsula was divided into North/South at the 38th parallel. Soth Korea is now known as Dae-han-min-guk.

Translation of names into Chinese Characters

Dynasty
Qin 秦
Han 漢
Tang 唐
Song 宋
Yuan 元
Jin 金
Liao 遼
Ming 明
Ching 清

Ethnics Minorities (some where consider foreign invaders in eariler history, but later on many became kingdoms with diplomatic relationships with the mainland)
The Huns 匈
Jurchen 女真
Manchuria 滿洲

4 Classes under Mongol Yuan Dynasty
Mongolians 蒙古
Colour-eyes 色目人
Han-ren 漢人
Nan-ren 南人
(What the Chinese called the Mongols was actually Ta-tan 韃靼)

Korea
Hai-dong 海東
Wei's Chao-Hsien 衛氏朝鮮
Chao-Hsien Peninsula 朝鮮半島
Ku-ku-rye, Wei, Han 高句麗、濊、韓
Ma-han, Chin-han, Pin-han 馬韓、辰韓、弁韓
Paik-chei 百濟
Sil-la 新羅
Corea 高麗
Dae-han-min-guk 大韓民國

mero

12-06-2004, 06:47 AM

Shazzanzzz

12-06-2004, 07:21 AM

Without chinese characters for Yuan Dynasty use of hanren you can't assume that Yuan Dynasty use of "han" is the Han Dynasty "han" 漢 and not a different "han" like Korean "han" 韓 of Northeast asian nations. That's why I asked Mingshi for to clarify etymology of Yuan Dynasty's use of Hanren a she gave us the Chinese character for it in her last post and now we know. What are you still confused about?

Actually, you said specifically that the Mongolian 'han' was probably referencing korean han 韓, not 漢 dynasty han.

As for your reference, I haven't come across anything that would suggest etymology of Han in "Han Chinese" is Yuan term "Hanjin". From what I know Mongolian references to "Han" is probably not to Han of Han Dynasty but to various Kingdoms in Northeast Asia(Altaic language) as far north as siberia and throughout Korean peninsula that called themselves various "han" states. E.g. South Korea is called Han Guk(nation) in reference to Han Nation of Northeast asia(ended around 4000BC). Do you have any specific etymology of "Han-Jin"? I'd be happy to hear it.

mero

12-06-2004, 10:48 AM

Shazzanzzz

13-06-2004, 12:45 AM

LOL, no actually I specifically and clearly stated that as a possibility since NO chinese characters was given and because of this VERY purpose asked Mingshi to clarify etymology of Mongolian "han". :)

In any case, no matter how you look at it your little outburst about korean han and 漢 still makes no sense which you've neatly ignored and never tried to explain.

Anything else?

If that is really what you meant, you didn't express it good enough on that post.

I don't think i've ignored anything, and i think you haven't given any support to your argument. All you've tried to do is to try to say what i say is not true with, in your words, 'highschool circular reasoning' that has no solid reasoning behind them.

I'm saying Chinese culture did not change because of outside influence, and is most likely the only culture that is still thier own culture in these thousands of years. What outside influence has caused China to change? What kind of changes? I've argued that out clans invade china, they learn chinese culture and become chinese themselves, so, non of them have really effected the basis of chinese culture. Your argument, i think, is that they HAVE effected it. If so, please say HOW they have. Once you have, then we can move on with this little argument, else, it will be going circular.

mero

13-06-2004, 04:20 AM

Good grief~. This is really getting pathetic. You obviously don't even understand my criticisms regarding modern constructions and historical context; you haven't even mentioned it. And your immature, snide attitude makes constructive discussion impossible.

BTW. what you're ignoring: when you put your foot in your mouth with "oh my god... Korean call themselves 韓 (han), chinese han is 漢. It's TOTALLY different words." :confused2

And when did anyone claim outside influence??? Do you even understand my criticism about ?
modern constructions and historical context
If that is really what you meant, you didn't express it good enough on that post.

I don't think i've ignored anything, and i think you haven't given any support to your argument. All you've tried to do is to try to say what i say is not true with, in your words, 'highschool circular reasoning' that has no solid reasoning behind them.

I'm saying Chinese culture did not change because of outside influence, and is most likely the only culture that is still thier own culture in these thousands of years. What outside influence has caused China to change? What kind of changes? I've argued that out clans invade china, they learn chinese culture and become chinese themselves, so, non of them have really effected the basis of chinese culture. Your argument, i think, is that they HAVE effected it. If so, please say HOW they have. Once you have, then we can move on with this little argument, else, it will be going circular.

Shazzanzzz

13-06-2004, 06:40 AM

I know the point of the discussion is very vague and that there are many ways to look at it. But, you still haven't provided anything supporting your point. All you've done is doing personnal attacks on people and contradicting yourself, and also trying to save your face by talking nonsense.

mingshi

13-06-2004, 07:55 AM

As for etymology of "Han Chinese", it would seem to me that Han-ren of Yuan dynasty is also a reference to Han Dynasty which would explain why the term was used at the turn of the century to create a modern Chinese identity while undermining Qing rule which goes back to my original point regarding conventions. Honestly, just giving Chinese character for this earlier would've prevented confusion.
Dunno. Maybe you should read about the 4 classes before telling me that.

Besides, Chinese are also called Tang-ren in the same way as Han-ren in modern language. The best example is how we say Chinatown in Chinese: Tang-ren-Je (where Je means street).

There were no points of contention regarding Korean history. Only thing I would add is that 韓 of the han nations is not the beginning of Korean history and that much older references to origins of Koreans a different linguistic, cultural, national identity goes back much further. E.g South Korean flag comes from 桓國(7,197BC-3986) who's king was called the "red devil"(that's where korean soccer fans get this from) and built large mounds in Manchuria.
Yeah I don't know the point either, apart from that you first mentioned it.

Please further explain the origin of the South Korean flag.

I know the tae-gek part already, so save it for someone else.

By the way 韓 was also one of the seven countries in the Zen-gou-shi-dai (戰國, or era of the warring states) pre-Qin.

mero

13-06-2004, 03:22 PM

Well, if you don't know I'm not sure what you're disagreement is and your snottiness is even more unwarranted. I clearly expressed and explained my opinion on Hanren of Yuan's 4 classes and it's relevance to my original point. Like I said if you have anything to add to discussion I'll be glad to hear it.

As for the Korean stuff, I mentioned "han" nations of Korean peninsula and northeast asia as origin of Korea's "han" in context of topic at hand. You took this and pretentiously pasted a long excerpt about Korean history and here we are. Again, I made my opinion known which you've only corroborated and again, if you have no disagreements your hostility and snottiness is unwarranted.

At the risk of incurring more insults for not meeting your request exactly... as for origin of SK flag, supposedly the oldest yin/yang was found in korea and during Korean independence movement at turn of century, the flag was formally designed. The same or similar yin/yang design and trigrams was also found to have been used by Bai-dal kingdom under a famous king who was called the "red devil".

Dunno. Maybe you should read about the 4 classes before telling me that.

Besides, Chinese are also called Tang-ren in the same way as Han-ren in modern language. The best example is how we say Chinatown in Chinese: Tang-ren-Je (where Je means street).

Yeah I don't know the point either, apart from that you first mentioned it.

Please further explain the origin of the South Korean flag.

I know the tae-gek part already, so save it for someone else.

By the way 韓 was also one of the seven countries in the Zen-gou-shi-dai (戰國, or era of the warring states) pre-Qin.

mero

13-06-2004, 03:26 PM

http://www.uglychinese.org/indx.htm#origin

I know the point of the discussion is very vague and that there are many ways to look at it. But, you still haven't provided anything supporting your point. All you've done is doing personnal attacks on people and contradicting yourself, and also trying to save your face by talking nonsense.

mingshi

14-06-2004, 06:53 AM

....supposedly the oldest yin/yang was found in korea and during Korean independence movement at turn of century, the flag was formally designed. The same or similar yin/yang design and trigrams was also found to have been used by Bai-dal kingdom under a famous king who was called the "red devil"....yada yada...
100 points for ethonocentrism to South Korea!

mero

14-06-2004, 09:04 AM

Ooh, good one there Mingshi :wink: You got me there!

100 points for ethonocentrism to South Korea!

Twobitmage

21-11-2004, 07:39 AM

EzzzE

01-12-2004, 06:55 AM

there are many ways to approach kendo

mine was something like this:

through general interest in japan and japanese culture / society i somehow found out about kendo and it seemed "fitting". i never was a big fan of the other martial arts such as judo etc.
kendo had a certain grace. those were the infos i had before i started (plus i watched an practice hour) so then i entered a beginners class. and in those 2 month i started reading about kendo, about kendo's history, i found this forum started reading etc.
things a appreciate about kendo is what it also stands for. kendo is not so much about beating the other one by no defined rule. kendo is first of all improving my self ( at least until you are alowed in bogu - thats the first time you have an opponent). then kendo has 'rei' , we don't stop our oponent by any means eg. tripping him like in soccer. the whole concept is different. in soccer for example abuse of the rules is so common that there is a large sanction system (yellow/red card)
rei also implies about the way you see yourself and others
mutual respect for everyone, defined rules are things i appreciate.
and there is also a certain japanese part of beauty in it, i actually like folding my hakama. it is nice to do something not 67% but rather 95%. ( I think it is marely impossible for a non japanese to claim 100% =) )

i don't know the reasons for others to join, but from our beginners class not much have survived. and as i was told jesterday the beginners class after last samurai was 40pll O_o.....*GG*

Shiro

01-12-2004, 07:37 AM

i don't know the reasons for others to join, but from our beginners class not much have survived. and as i was told jesterday the beginners class after last samurai was 40pll O_o.....*GG*

We had the same effect..... more newbies than experienced kendoka...... :)

Though I don't mind newcomers at all, but not in such large numbers, plz :)

Vortex

09-12-2004, 02:02 PM

When I read the title of the thread it sounded like something I wanted to comment on, but after reading like six pages of bickering I forgot what the subject was about....

Zaphiel

20-12-2004, 06:29 PM

We had the same effect..... more newbies than experienced kendoka...... :)

Though I don't mind newcomers at all, but not in such large numbers, plz :)
Why not??
the more newcomers there are now the more kendokas there will be in two years time....and I personally think that it is important that many people help kendo to survive...for if they don't ,who will?
It's not like it's dying but they help to keep up the traditions.....
(hard to explain...hope you understood)
<rei>

Paburo

20-12-2004, 11:19 PM

When I read the title of the thread it sounded like something I wanted to comment on, but after reading like six pages of bickering I forgot what the subject was about....
me too.

see, i think all kenshi -japanese or not- are samurai wannabes at some point... i mean, we dress in samurai clothes, put on japanese armours and hit each other screaming and counting in japanese. we are even TAUGHT to have in mind and follow those principles samurai used for daily life, and merge them into ours. that is kendo my friends.

some kenshi also have an indepth knowledge of other cultural aspects of japanese. some just know kendo and sushi. that's ok. anyone should be free to study and like any culture they want to and into the depth they want to. its called free will. and it wont make you a better or worse kenshi, to know a lot about japanese culture, or to just know kendo and something else.

the ONLY distinction i would make here, is that kendo comes from historically accurate samurai roots. call it a sport or martial art. in that aspect is a serious and well rooted activity, with techniques and practice of 'ancient' tradition. thats why you are expected to not forget where it comes from at training.

whilst a manga/anime/american-ninja-movie samurai wannabe, will just not find what he/she wants in kendo. because those characters and techinques were created inside the mind of some artist/writer, not in battles and actual practice. these type of ppl should go instead to an acting school.

Willow

21-12-2004, 09:46 AM

Thanks Paburo - you always have good things to say.

As far as this thread goes, I just read it through for the first time in one go last night. It got me thinking about the whole question of cultures influencing other cultures.

I don't think there is a beginning or an end to this sort of influence. The Japanese were influenced by the Chinese because they admired their culture. In the same way, young Chinese people are now travelling to Japan, admiring and being influenced by Japanese culture, especially pop culture which draws inspiration from traditional Japan and fuses it with many other influences (even Aussie surf culture).

As for westerners 'pretending' to be Japanese, how different is that from the Japanese adopting Chinese ways many centuries ago? It's unhealthy to try and 'shut down' your culture (and your mind) and not leave it open to positive influences from elsewhere.

And D'Artagnon, you haven't lived till you've enjoyed sea urchin sushi... go on, try it! (pure essence of the sea...)

Richiro

01-01-2005, 06:24 AM

i'm part japanese and i did'nt know much about my culture because my dad and mom got devoced. When i went online and started to find out i loved it. I started studying kana and Kanji and then at one time started karate but didnt like it. But i dont think i would be one of those maniacs that act cool or anything i just want to find out more about my culture.

josieposey

03-01-2005, 04:41 PM

To be quite honest, I've been running into more and more "samurai wannabes" and it scares me. It scares me to know that there are kids out there who are convinced that because they read books and own a sword that they are samurai. This is not just something I see in Kendo, but in lots of martial arts. Kids out there (either because they've seen way too many action flicks or something) are have this fanasty notion that kenjutusu is beautiful completely desensitized to the reasons of why it existed in the first place. The samurai were not heroes but soldiers who were ruthless and violent because they had to be. Martial arts are created (mostly, I would venture) for protecting people, because in warfare it is a "kill or be killed" system. I keep running into these punks who think because they've studied martial art X for Y number of years that they are untouchable, and I have to laugh. While yes, skill is valuable and trained martial artists may have better survival rates in fights, it doesn't give one an automatic win. I am scared to hear kids in my iai class talk about how they would take on people in streetfights with swords (i.e. I would beat him with my migi kesa-giri, etc.). Anyways, studying Kenjutsu is great, and there's a lot of lessons to take away from it, but something that few people seem to mention is that the samurai culture is gone. There aren't samurai anymore, not even in Japan, because it's not workable in today's world. Just look what happened during the Meiji restoration. Samurai position was abandoned because no matter how ruthless and cunning one's sword skills were, none of it could stand up to the destructive reality of guns. And so I find it scary and a bit sad when kids go completely off their rockers and proclaim they are "a samurai". Don't get me wrong. Kendo is wonderful, and martial arts is a wonderful thing, for its practicality and its art. I just wish people would take these things out of it and use them to compliment their on life.

Louis X

03-01-2005, 08:25 PM

i think it's normal with the increasing number of practitionners. Even if i'm just a beginner, I understood that this new year so an impressively increasin number of newcomers in my club.

In this lot, you will always find kinda the some proportion of people with the 1% of annoying/stupid/no respect people. The more people, the more you see them even if it's 1 on a hundred. But people with this mentality don't practice for years. They drop or they get it right. No ?

Wout

03-01-2005, 09:04 PM

But people with this mentality don't practice for years. They drop or they get it right. No ?
Or they fix their attitude, which is good, no?

Louis X

03-01-2005, 10:39 PM

That's what I meant :D (excuse my pooor english)

kuzu70

05-01-2005, 04:02 AM

Kendo is wonderful, and martial arts is a wonderful thing, for its practicality and its art. I just wish people would take these things out of it and use them to compliment their on life.[/QUOTE]
Great post josieposey!

[Kensei 剣の聖者]

05-01-2005, 08:19 AM

we had a Census in the UK, and almost a hundred thousand people put their official religion as "Jedi"..... Thats worrying

DarthMaul

05-01-2005, 08:42 AM

Yes that is very disturbing.... no need to worry, they will be eradicated soon (around March).

Muuahahahahhhhaaaaaahhaaaa:devious:

nodaka

21-01-2005, 05:48 AM

I have seen many types in the short time i have been teaching. I've had a guy come in wanting to be Blade, a girl wanting to be the chick from "Kill Bill", and a bunch wanting to be ruronin kenshin or dragon ball z. a girl told me the other day, that her friend is convinced that he is the incarnation of Miyamoto Musashi, all i could do not to laught in her face, was turn around and start practicing ocuri ashi. I hope the kid comes in with her one day.

Kaoru

21-01-2005, 06:26 AM

I have seen many types in the short time i have been teaching. I've had a guy come in wanting to be Blade, a girl wanting to be the chick from "Kill Bill", and a bunch wanting to be ruronin kenshin or dragon ball z. a girl told me the other day, that her friend is convinced that he is the incarnation of Miyamoto Musashi, all i could do not to laught in her face, was turn around and start practicing ocuri ashi. I hope the kid comes in with her one day.
Short time in teaching? Out of curiosity, how old are you? Rank? Where do you yourself, train? You keep mentioning you teach. My apologies, but I never saw a dojo that got so many wannabes. Our dojo rarely gets this sort of person. Please excuse my questions, but am curious... Your profile didn't say.

Kaoru

JByrd

21-01-2005, 08:34 AM

I have seen many types in the short time i have been teaching. I've had a guy come in wanting to be Blade, a girl wanting to be the chick from "Kill Bill", and a bunch wanting to be ruronin kenshin or dragon ball z.
This semester I started teaching a 1-credit Beginning Kendo class at the university where I work, and I braced myself to deal with that situation. Fortunately I didn't have to; all the students are cool and down to earth.

Unlike people in asian and european countries, we in the USA don't have much swordplay in our country's history, and so our cultural literacy in that area is very low. Most of what the average person here knows about swordplay comes from movies, so perhaps it is understandable that we see a widespread inability to distinguish between combat-based swordplay and cinematic stunt choreography.

We may get more Kill Bill wannabes checking out our regular club practices than I am aware of. I require all newbies to watch one complete class before I allow them to sign up. Many never come back, and I can only guess why. I was at first hesitant to implement that policy, fearing it would hinder our little club's growth by discouraging new beginners. Then I reasoned that anyone so easily discouraged would probably quit soon anyway, and I can't afford to waste my time on such people when I could be training with students who have faithfully showed up year after year.

nonamehandle

17-11-2007, 03:26 AM

mmm....this thread has been dead for sometime but had been going over some of my posts and see that i posted here before but did not participate in the conversations that ensued afterwards. so...i sorta feel that i should at least give some of my viewpoints, mainly to the discussion involving Mingshi, Mero, Shaz, etc.

for most of you you will need to go through the whole thread to understand and i in all sincereity do not believe that it is worthwhile for you to do so. i just want to just say that if you want historical information, DO NOT use this forum or take people's posts here, including mine, as the correct view. go to a site dedicated to such things or a better yet go get a good book to read.

(btw, i now see that when i first posted, i was misguided in my understanding of what was being said)

just wanted to say that there has been gross inaccurate history presented all around and since this is a kendo forum and not an academic forum, it is inevitable. however, since people do seem to get their facts and misfacts through reading these forums and seeing that none has taken Mingshi to the task, i will offer some comments.

as to the yuan system of categorizing peoples, the term semu ren refers to miscellaneous peoples and not to colored eyed; but this is understandable since semu was understood as colored eyed even in academia for some time.
as to the hanren class of people. i have not seen the primary source, so cannot be certain, but i am apt to agree that the chinese character for "han" as in han dynasty is what is used for the yuan system. however, it is also evidently clear that though the character is the same, what the mongols were categorizing as hanren is very different from the han ethncity that is being referred to in the present time (and by Mingshi)-certainly if the mongols considered jin dynasty as hanren, they certainly were not referring to only the "chinese" in their usage of this term.

i am familiar with song dynasty (dynasty before yuan) primary texts (as well as pre-chin, i.e. "confucian" texts) and have not come across passages where they talk about themselves as han people. i am only vaguely familiar with ming (dynasty after yuan) texts but i would be willing to bet a buck or two :> that it also is the same case. i am not at all familiar with ching dynasty texts, but i would be very suprised if people were calling themselves as hanren (at least until much later in the dynasty)

though Mero's argument was not completely lucid, perhaps he was referring to this is in saying that the han as a term for "chinese" ethnicity is a modern concept? but this is the case for koreans calling themselves as "han" (different han from han dynasty) as well (btw, north koreans do not refer to themselves as the people of the han). and also for japanese calling themselves as nihonjin; they all seem to be a phenomena as a response to the rise of the modern state.

i am aware that for the past couple of decades china's governmental policy with support from some of its scholars have been trying to incorporate the histories of ethnicities that are living within present day boundary of china as part of china's traditional history, hence tibetan history becomes part of chinese history as well as koguryo (an old state of korea) history. although this might make political sense-these ethnicities are now living inside china and many consider themselves as citizens of the nation called china, just not han chinese, this has very little historical basis. i am commenting on this since in Mingshi's listing of chinese dynasties jin and yiao seemed to be considered as chinese...

as to bushido codes just being ideas having been presented in confucian texts, though some of the characters do show up in confucian texts, they do not describe the same concept (generally) as what is presented in the bushido codes. in this i find Hotei's post well thought out and am in concurrence. of course i do find elements of confucian ideals in the kendo i practice (infact i find kendo of today is more confucian th