Tsuki-dare and do fit for a woman with a large chest

[MartialArtsGirl]

So.. first off, I have to say, I've got a large... chest area, so uhm yeah. Anyway, because of that, I've gotten into the habit of tucking the men's tsuki-dare under my do. I've noticed for awhile now (practically from the first day of wearing bogu) that everyone else wears their tsuki-dare so that it's on top of their do, but when I try that, my uhm, do pushes the tsuki-dare so that my entire men gets slanted (and my chin is pulled up) and I can't line my eyes up with the ...mono-mi is it called? (the large part of the grill on the men). Plus, putting the tsuki-dare over my do makes the men very uncomfortable, as if it's going to fall off, and it makes it so that's impossible to tuck my neck in close to my body. In other words, it feels like the do is pulling on the tsuki-dare and so its as if its caught there. My chin is essentially jutting out a little. I can't move my head as well either-my heads basically stuck there (not that I need to move my head a heck of a lot, but still its nice to be able to)

So my solution has been to tuck the tsuki-dare under my do. As far as I can tell, it doesn't comproise my necks protection (my neck is still covered, at least it looks like it when I look in the mirror), it allows me more movement, and I can keep my head up straight instead of tilted. Also my Sensei(s) have not said anything about it or told me to change it. So overall it seems to really work for me.

However, a few months ago when I was testing, I couldn't help but wonder if I should have put the tuski-dare over the do, at least just for testing. That is, I'd do that to show that I know thats what I'm supposed to do. (but I'm sorry boys, it just doesn't work for me on a regular basis! Not until you design the do for girls with large chests! It'd be so easy, and no, it does not need two large humps for the boobs...all it needs is to have a couple of extra himo on the sides so that it could be pulled in tight...but whatever, apparently girls don't design these things.)

Also, I've thought of putting the do lower, but I don't think it would work because if I put it as low as it would need to be (so that its basically not touching or overlapping the tsuki-dare..i.e. its not under or over it...then I think my Sensei's would say its too low. There are times when I didn't even put it that low and I was told that it was too low.) I've also tried to bend the tsuki-dare a little so that it conforms to how far the do goes out, but it just doesn't bend that far.

So what I was wondering is, could something unconventional like this cost me points when I'm testing for rank, even at the kyu levels? If so, should I just temporarily put the tuski-dare over the do while testing? (If I did, my men would slant up though...and I wouldnt be able to look through the mono-mi even with a chin pad, -and another pad probably wouldn't fit in there. So, would that cost me points as well if I wasn't looking through the mono-mi?)

[Kent Enfield]

Rather than worrying about whether or not it affects ranking, I'd worry about safety. It sounds like your tsukidare is too long and your do is too tall. My understanding is that the two shouldn't really touch. The tsukidare and the flap behind it should fit into the valley at the top of the muneate without interference.

[Raindrop]

Well just last night I did tsuki for the first time and also recieved tsuki for the first time and I learned to actually pull back my jaw so that the tsuki-dare rests on the do-mune, for extra protection. So that means for me they do overlap, albeit it slightly.

Wearing the tsuki-dare under the do poses two questions for me:

1) is it covered up so much that an opponent won't be able to reach it for tsuki?

2) is there not a bigger chance of injury if you receive a hard-pushing tsuki if you cannot distribute the force of impact over your do as well?

I'm just wondering about those things cause tsuki stuff is all new and fresh for me.

The only thing I can think of that might help is to take a look at these topics:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?10047-Do-for-short-torso-ladies

and

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?10249-Female-friendly-bogu-suppliers

I think your only option would be a custom-made do.

[fuukiran]

hi,

I'm well endowed as well, and I had the same problem of finding the good way to wear my do. What I do now, with the approbation an help of my sensei and of various sempais is to wear mo do quite low. That means I wear my tare low as well (not at the waist but more on the hips).
Their only concern is on the protection of my chest in the case of poorly targeted do cuts, but I wear a specially padded bra.

I'm way to inexperienced to have received tsuki and I have passed only a kyu grading so I can't give you more answers

Fuukiran (from france)

[Toecutter]

How can the tsuki-dare be behind your do? Wouldn't that mean you would be unable to look up, or at least the tsuki-dare would get caught on the do so to inhibit free movement of the neck. Anyway as Kent said I've always seen the tsuki dare just miss the touching the do. I do have one teacher in the area though that every time he sees me he tells me to wear my do higher so that my tsuki-dare overlaps on the outside, not the inside. Either way just ask your sensei, I'm sure he'll have an answer to the issue.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well just last night I did tsuki for the first time and also recieved tsuki for the first time and I learned to actually pull back my jaw so that the tsuki-dare rests on the do-mune, for extra protection. So that means for me they do overlap, albeit it slightly.For you. For most, tucking the chin allows you to brace the tsuki-dare against the breastbone. Any overlap is on top of that.

MAG, having it underneath would create problems with movement as others have said. Sounds like your doh is too tall, which is a common problem fitting women. Usually they need a wider doh to accommodate hips, but then they get height they don't want.

[DCPan]

It seems like a good general rule of thumb is that the top edge of the center of the mune where it dips between the loops should be around where you sternal angle is.

http://realmodernman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Sternum1.jpg

Sometimes, the tsuki-dare that comes on bogu is too straight...it should be curved slightly forward so it normally doesn't run into the mune. You can actually bend it yourself if your particular anatomy makes the mune a little more forward than usual. (Some bogu actually advertise the curved tsuki-dare, like the A-1 Men for example....)

The thing is, some of my older sensei actually say it is actually good for the tsuki-dare to be "long enough" to touch the mune so that when you receive a strong tsuki, the tsuki-dare will land on the top edge of the mune and take away some of the shock so your spinal column isn't the only thing that's receiving the tsuki.

But normally, the tsuki-dare is bent/curved forward so it isn't touching the mune.

Hope that helps....

[Curtis]

The tsuki dare should fit with just a slight gap between it and the mune. So this is all fine and dandy if your bogu is fitted to you and you happen to be the ideal shape. For women as is stated now and before this can be a problem. The doh can get pushed out and short of a custom mune and sports bra that compresses you into unconsciousness you just have to work around it. You can wear the doh a little lower which exposes your side to possible injury. The solution I have for that is to sew a pocket inside the keikogi that covers the exposed area and insert some 3mm thick craft foam in it. Foam is cut to about 2.5 to 3" x 5 or 6". No one knows it's there and you can practice without worry.

[Inner_Silence]

MAG
tsuki dare and do shouldnt "overlap", there should be a little gap between those both. you should use your do a little bit lower, but you say its already too low for you, so I think that your do is too big for you, you should buy a smaller one (see on the ladys bogu suppliers thread).

besides that I think you should upload a picture of you, I mean, to see the problem in its whole dimension in order to find a solution from different perspectives... Im just saying...

[MartialArtsGirl]

How can the tsuki-dare be behind your do? Wouldn't that mean you would be unable to look up, or at least the tsuki-dare would get caught on the do so to inhibit free movement of the neck. Anyway as Kent said I've always seen the tsuki dare just miss the touching the do. I do have one teacher in the area though that every time he sees me he tells me to wear my do higher so that my tsuki-dare overlaps on the outside, not the inside. Either way just ask your sensei, I'm sure he'll have an answer to the issue.

Let me put it this way: When I wear my do at the correct height, my boobs push it out ALOT so that there is at least several inches from the top of my do (the mune I guess?) and my body. I mean several inches. If I push the do inward (therby squishing my boobs) the do fits normally. I basically have D sized cup! I'm BIG for a girl (and thats not because I'm extremly overweight. I'm not at my best weight, but even when I was...I've always been BIG.) So, essentially, if you were to make a comparison: putting the tsuki dare over the mune, or under the mune: then I would have more of an ability to move my head if it is under my mune. I've also tried different bras to push my boobs in, but its just not enough. I'd have to basically strap them down like transexuals do, and , well I'm pretty sure that won't either. Short of cutting them off... lol

Also, if I was to push the do in, then my tuski-dare does just barely touch the mune. Barely. It's basically only a small overlap if I squish my boobs in, and I've seen others have the same amount of overlap.





MAG
tsuki dare and do shouldnt "overlap", there should be a little gap between those both. you should use your do a little bit lower, but you say its already too low for you, so I think that your do is too big for you, you should buy a smaller one (see on the ladys bogu suppliers thread).

besides that I think you should upload a picture of you, I mean, to see the problem in its whole dimension in order to find a solution from different perspectives... Im just saying...

There is also very little of a gap when I wear the tsuki-dare under my do in the sense of how my neck is being protected. Actually I think that there is more of a gap if I put the tsuki-dare over my do because of the way it juts out. Sorry, I can't help it that I have big boobs! (can you believe, I'm actually slightly jealous of the small boobed girls?)

I'm pretty sure that my do is the right size. I dont think getting a smaller sized do would solve the problem anyway, because my boobs are literally pushing the do out.

Ok, heres an example: There's a shirt I got as a gift and I really really like it. But it drapes down, (straight down) from the chest area. I can't wear it, because it just hangs and it looks like there's a curtain coming down. It doesn't curve inward towards my stomach, but it just hangs from my boobs. The shirt is the right size (and has an awesome print on it) but I just can't wear it because the cut is wrong. It's similar with the bogu... if I push the do in, I have no problems. But I really can't do that while doing kendo!

The best solution (other than sticking the tsuki-dare under the do that is sticking out) is to have the do altered so that there are extra himos at the sides of the mune. Then I could pull it in tight and squish my boobs. If I did that, then not only would the do be the right size, but my tuski-dare could be over my do without making me unable to move my head, and without a other host of problems. But somehow, I doubt such a design exists. There are very few female kendoka around, and probably even fewer big boobed ones (especially since asian girls tend to be on the small side). (Oh and btw, as Ive said, I've tried sports bras that are a size smaller, I've tried various other things, and it just doesn't squish my boobs in enough)

All in all, the way I wear it isn't a problem for me. I've even been tsuki-ed once or twice and I haven't had a problem. (hah I was shocked to get tsukid though... but, other than the psychological shock, it wasn't an issue). Actually, sometimes the tsuki-dare does get loose (that is, I'm wearing my do low so that there is hardly any overlap) but thats not good either because it will get caught a little bit on the mune, or cause other movement problems.

But it does look weird, and I know it. Its so comfortable for me though! Plus I haven't really had any problems with it! But anyway, nobody has really answered my original question: when I test, how is something like that going to effect things?

Anyway, I've decided to put a pic of myself in bogu after all. But, I'll probably put it in the "me in bogu or whatever" thread first, rather than the "boob" thread. :redface:

hmm anyway, if I were to estimate, I'd say that the gap between the top of the mune and my body/neck area is at least over 5 or 6 inches. So there is plenty of room for the tsuki dare. It's true that I can't look up to the ceiling, (not that you want to anyway) BUT, I can turn my head right or left, which is something I have more trouble doing (almost can't do) if I put the tsuki dare over the mune. So anyway its more comfortable this way (and maybe even safer... or so it feels. It doesnt feel like my men is about to flip off my head...and there is less of a gap near my neck area). But I wonder if I lost (or will lose) points during the promotion exam because of this...

[Kent Enfield]

It sounds like you really need a custom made do. If you're going to stick with kendo, getting bogu that does what its supposed to without getting in your way is well worth it. Until then, have you tried shaping the muneate so that it curves back towards you some? (I don't know how you'd go about doing that without damaging it.)

I'm nowhere near sitting on grading panels, but especially for low ranks, I don't think anyone would fail you for not having a body shape substantially different than the one kendogu evolved for and thus having an ill-fitting do. I'd be more concerned about compromising your posture or technique in a futile attempt to make the bogu look right.

[Pork Floss]

I think you should get a women's dou...those actually accomodate the chest so it feels less awkward, but you might still need to customize the mune height etc.

[MartialArtsGirl]

How can the tsuki-dare be behind your do? Wouldn't that mean you would be unable to look up, or at least the tsuki-dare would get caught on the do so to inhibit free movement of the neck. Anyway as Kent said I've always seen the tsuki dare just miss the touching the do. I do have one teacher in the area though that every time he sees me he tells me to wear my do higher so that my tsuki-dare overlaps on the outside, not the inside. Either way just ask your sensei, I'm sure he'll have an answer to the issue.

How is a custom made do different than a regular one? I mean, how can you custom fit for the boobs, seriously? Other than strapping the do down!
Does anyone have any pics of what such a custom made do would look like? Could it be made with the himo on the side of the mune?

If the mune was any shorter, I don't think it would protect my neck/chest area. The mune is the perfect height...(in my noob opinion anyway.) it just sticks out a lot. ANd I tried to bend the tsuki-dare, but it doesnt really work. It's actually kind of short and inflexible, actually. I think if I tried to force it to bend, I'd probably break it and make it useless for protecting my neck.

Either way, its a mute point. There's no way on earth that I can afford a custom made do right now. Heh, maybe if I move to (and work in) Japan I'll be able to. That is something I might do in the next year or two. But other than that....now... its just not possible.

I just wish I knew if doing what I'm doing is affecting my rank testing, because if it is I can just suck it up for the test, and wear it "properly". If anyone knows, please tell me! I guess I'll also ask my Sensei about this. He probably really would know. >.< I'm just super shy around him, you know. (Errr, cause, er, cause I really want to impress him... heh which probably means I wont)

[Alicia]

I just wish I knew if doing what I'm doing is affecting my rank testing, because if it is I can just suck it up for the test, and wear it "properly".

It won't be affecting your testing, particularly not at your level.The people on the panel are able to make allowances for different people's physical requirements or situations, and if the problem is as you have described then they will not have an issue with this. Just like if a 50 year old goes for their shodan they won't be expected to be so energetic as a 20 year old, so they can consider your circumstances.

Just wear it the way that you are comfortable and able to move the easiest. The benefit from being comfortable and doing your best kendo will outweigh any of your confidence issues about this matter.

[MartialArtsGirl]

It won't be affecting your testing, particularly not at your level.The people on the panel are able to make allowances for different people's physical requirements or situations, and if the problem is as you have described then they will not have an issue with this. Just like if a 50 year old goes for their shodan they won't be expected to be so energetic as a 20 year old, so they can consider your circumstances.

Just wear it the way that you are comfortable and able to move the easiest. The benefit from being comfortable and doing your best kendo will outweigh any of your confidence issues about this matter.


Thanks.
And- do you think they would be able to tell that thats the most comfortable?

Because, assuming I'm right when I say I dont think wearing it like that is compromising my protection... well, it just seems to be the best way to wear it for me. And, I can do without a custom fit do for now.

Then again, from other peoples comments, it sounds like it would be completely impossible for them to put their tsuki-dare under their do. So perhaps people on the testing panel will notice that. ^.^

[Toecutter]

How is a custom made do different than a regular one? I mean, how can you custom fit for the boobs, seriously? Other than strapping the do down!
Does anyone have any pics of what such a custom made do would look like? Could it be made with the himo on the side of the mune?

I just wish I knew if doing what I'm doing is affecting my rank testing, because if it is I can just suck it up for the test, and wear it "properly". If anyone knows, please tell me! I guess I'll also ask my Sensei about this. He probably really would know. >.< I'm just super shy around him, you know. (Errr, cause, er, cause I really want to impress him... heh which probably means I wont)
You could try these guys (http://www.t-shobudo.com/), in their catalog, not on the web site they have a unique type of do. I don't know how to explain it, you kind of have to see a picture of it from the side, but if money is a question they're definitely out of the question.

As for is it affecting your grading the best person to ask would be your sensei, didn't he sit on your panel last test? Having met your sensei he is a very intimidating person but you are his student and I'm sure he would have a wealth of knowledge for you if you just asked. I’ve been told by a few teachers that in general they won’t dispense advice unless you ask for it, asking for it shows that you want to progress, if you just come to practice and leave then in their eyes you don’t really want to learn, or you’re not taking it seriously enough.

[MartialArtsGirl]

You met my Sensei? (So you know who he is and what dojo I go to?)

Anyway, he wasn't on the panel actually. Another one of my Sensei's was on the panel but I dont think he was. I can't remember if he was on the higher ranks panels (I was testing for kyu), but probably.

I actually don't find him intimidating at all. Its not that. I just really really want to impress him, (cause I think hes super awesome and a very inspiring person) and so I get very nervous around him. >.<
There is more to it too, of course... (I mean, I really respect my other Sensei's too but I dont get nervous around them or want to impress them in the same way.) but anyway, thats just the weird stuff in my head. :grin:

[JByrd]

I get very nervous around him. >.<


I take it that making students nervous is one of the most important duties of a sensei.

[Toecutter]

You met my Sensei? (So you know who he is and what dojo I go to?)

Isn't your dojo on thomas st.? I think most people in the New England area and NY have met your sensei.

[MartialArtsGirl]

I take it that making students nervous is one of the most important duties of a sensei.

why is that? >.<
Either way I think he's super cool. I wish I could tell him that but I'd be too embarrassed. Plus he'd probably think I'm weird.


Isn't your dojo on thomas st.? I think most people in the New England area and NY have met your sensei.

How did you figure out where I went? I didn't think I told anyone on KWF.

[b8amack]

There was the whole "That's my sensei!" when someone posted a video interview of him, iirc. Sort of a strong hint.

[Eliza]

Hey MAG,

I know how you feel, it is really hard having DD and properly fitting into bogu. I remember when I first started, I tucked in tsuki dare too. I found that when I improved my posture I was allowed more mobility and was also more comfortable.

Also, I don't think I could do any technique properly until I bought this bra: http://www.figleaves.com/us/product.asp?product=Shock-Absorber-Support-Level-4-D+-sports-bra&product_id=BB-109&size=&colour=White

I am 34DD and have used this same bra for over 5 years. It is still in great condition considering how much I practice.

I hope you can solve the problem, just keep on going and never lose your beginning spirit.

[MartialArtsGirl]

There was the whole "That's my sensei!" when someone posted a video interview of him, iirc. Sort of a strong hint.

oooo. forgot about that.... >.<


Hey MAG,

I know how you feel, it is really hard having DD and properly fitting into bogu. I remember when I first started, I tucked in tsuki dare too. I found that when I improved my posture I was allowed more mobility and was also more comfortable.

Also, I don't think I could do any technique properly until I bought this bra: http://www.figleaves.com/us/product.asp?product=Shock-Absorber-Support-Level-4-D+-sports-bra&product_id=BB-109&size=&colour=White

I am 34DD and have used this same bra for over 5 years. It is still in great condition considering how much I practice.

I hope you can solve the problem, just keep on going and never lose your beginning spirit.

yeah, thats around my size. your a bit bigger than me actually... I'm a D 34.

On a second note, I think I may actually be able to put my do down a bit lower. I noticed that my tsuki-dare overlaps with my do a bit more than other peoples. But, I'm not sure how much protection I'd get if I put it lower either.

Also, I wonder if someone from my dojo reads these things. Someone tried to tsuki me a few times last practice... (failed though. mwhwhaha). Anyway. ;P

[Raindrop]

On a second note, I think I may actually be able to put my do down a bit lower. I noticed that my tsuki-dare overlaps with my do a bit more than other peoples. But, I'm not sure how much protection I'd get if I put it lower either.


Well, since mine also overlapped (but the other way around) I put my do a bit lower this weekend, and erm... OUCH! Now I remember again why I wear it higher o__O. I looked around and more women have it overlap. It's cause we have boobs and hips that make the do not just hang off your shoulders straight. Guys generally don't seem to have those kind of issues (obviously).

But yeah, if you wanna try and wear it lower, make sure you stuff your bra on both sides first!!!

[MartialArtsGirl]

I will try it. BUT, frankly, I'm pretty happy with the way I wear it. I'm just worried if people on the testing panels will think it weird and take points off for it.

I might experiment, and (just for testing?) I might wear the do lower or something just in case. Just so that they know - I know how it's supposed to be worn, it just doesnt work that way for me.
Not sure yet what I will do. I forgot to ask my Sensei last time I went to class. >.<