Existence of Ninja....

[Hattori Hanzo]

Now I hear from mixed sources that there were and were not ninja, which watching the last Samurai I was suprised to see the ninja, just wondering if anybody has any historical proof on their existence?

[Dr. Hellsing]

there are many ninjutsu dojos around the world...if you want history...i guess you can say that there were many ninjas famous for their assasanations like Sasuke Sarutobi,or Saizou kirigakure.
but then no one really nows beacuse ninjas are made to not exist. ^_~

[ALI G]

Now I hear from mixed sources that there were and were not ninja, just wondering if anybody has any historical proof on their existence?

Dey R still in exiztencez.......

Juzt clickz on da linkz 4 moh info.....http://www.kawasaki.com/index2.asp

[Khabbi]

Oh dear god no !

I wouldent tuch this thread with a ten foot clown pole




Khabbi

[Hattori Hanzo]

Haha dude....guess I set myself up for that one.

[ShinobiKenjutsu]

As a ninjutsu practiotioner, I can best explain the history of ninjutsu, perhaps. To answer you question, there were indeed Ninja, though the class is nearly dead now. The last living ninja, in the truist sense, was O'Sensei Takamatsuhttp://www.ninjutsu.com/images/takmtsu.jpgWho is the 33rd Soke of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. He was born in th 23rd year of Meiji, and upon his tragic death in 1972, when he was 82, he was proceeded by Hatsumi Yoshiaki.
Grandmaster Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi has broken the color barrier in ninjutsu, and there are now many books written by him on the history and traditions of ninjutsu. My instructor was Master Von Donk, who is a student of the grandmaster.

While Dr. Hatsumi is not a true ninja, but IS the closest living equivilent. He is the Inheriting Soke of 9 Ninjutsu Traditions and also the founder of the Bujinkan Dojo at which I studied.


To paraphrase, yes, Virginia, there is a ninja-claus

[Eldritch Knight]

Aye. They even have a museum dedicated to the Iga-clan ninja in Nara, just outside Kyoto (right by Ueno castle, in case anyone's interested). A lot of interesting artifacts, techniques, and information. Its quite easy to verify all this because the Iga, like most Japanese organizations, took immaculate records - Musashi even received training from them for a while.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Yeah that Iga I have heard of.

[JSchmidt]

Hehe..I love those McDojo websites:

http://www.ninjutsu.com/BBCourseMain.shtml

"

Black Belt Home Study Course
World's Original Authentic Ninjutsu
Home Study Course
Incredibly, this is the #1 world best-selling
Ninjutsu training method for 14 years straight!

Do not be fooled by non-certified made up Ninja copycat courses! "

Of course everyone knows that there's only one real ultimate
ninja-website!! (http://www.realultimatepower.com)

[Khabbi]

I said i wouldent do it ,but after those ninjutsu posts i cant help my self

Ninja , were Samurai , maybe u can compare it to Special forces , they had regular samurai posts , but they were specialy trained for diffrent jobs ,

monst ninja were spy's , not some "darkninja suit" sneaky basterd ,

If u wanna spy in a fishing villige , u dress like a fisherman not, dressing up in Ninja PJs is a Hollywood fantesy to sell movies and to spice them up

Maybe SWAT would be a better term , SWAT members are regular cops , but when SWAT is needed they do the SWAT job , just take that princible and move it to ancient Japan / war

So basicly a Ninja was a Samurai with special forces training and spy stuff =)
Not some sneeky black PJs wall climbing superman dragon with supa ninjutso skills ,

But how ever , if u run into a ninja , remember , white clothes = nice ninja , Black clothes = evil Ninja

[Hattori Hanzo]

You lie!

Three words....

Real Ultimate Power!!!!!

:devious:

[orayakab]

Hehe..I love those McDojo websites:

http://www.ninjutsu.com/BBCourseMain.shtml

"

Black Belt Home Study Course
World's Original Authentic Ninjutsu
Home Study Course
Incredibly, this is the #1 world best-selling
Ninjutsu training method for 14 years straight!

Do not be fooled by non-certified made up Ninja copycat courses! "

Of course everyone knows that there's only one real ultimate
ninja-website!! (http://www.realultimatepower.com)

The best line I've ever heard from one Ninja "Practitioner" is: "The practice of ninjutsu was part of the Secret Society of the Ninja of which I am a member of....." WTF are you talking about?! If it's a secret society, why are you telling people you are a member?

Orayakab, U.

[IsahoNaginata]

I am surprised you even need to ask this since your online namesake is one of Japan's most famous historical ninja. Likewise the existence of various ninja clans such as the Koga, Iga, and Fuuma have all been proven.

I would not say that true ninja are around today however. Just as people who study kenjitsu and such are not samurai so too are people who study bujinkan (the last true style of ninjutsu) ninja.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Actually the name was one I snagged from Samurai Showdown and I think also in Kill Bill as well.

[IsahoNaginata]

Actually the name was one I snagged from Samurai Showdown and I think also in Kill Bill as well.
Ah. Well, I forget -which- emperor he served but Hattori Hanzo was one of (I believe) the Iga clan and was one of the emperor's personal advisors, protectors, friends and assassin. He is pretty famous as far as much Japanese history goes.

[aru-ma]

about Hattori Hanzo:

Hattori Hanzo (http://www.samurai-archives.com/hanzo.html)

[Khabbi]

Hattori Yasunaga, Hanzo served as a retainer for Tokugawa Ieyasu , retainer aka samurai , Hattori Yasunaga, Hanzo was also a "ninja" which is basicly special forces . no mystical thingamajib .


give it up ppl !

"There were some samurai who specialized in this; two famous examples were the Koga and Iga ninja who sided with Tokugawa Ieyasu. Hattori Hanzo, who was from the ninja, held the title of hatamoto (banner-bearer), the highest rank a samurai (and only a samurai) could have"

read books ! dont get facts from hollywood

[IsahoNaginata]

"There were some samurai who specialized in this; two famous examples were the Koga and Iga ninja who sided with Tokugawa Ieyasu. Hattori Hanzo, who was from the ninja, held the title of hatamoto (banner-bearer), the highest rank a samurai (and only a samurai) could have"

Yes. Some ninja were members of the Samurai caste by virtue of being nobility and bushi simultaneously. Other ninja were also ashigaru soldiers while others still were priests, farmers, and even geisha. Ninja such as Hattori Hanzo were a special breed as they surrendered their own personal honor to preserve the honor of their master.

However, being exposed as ninja was enough to have one automatically expelled from the Samurai caste. Ninja were casteless as far as Japanese society was concerned - they had no place and were dishonorable individuals - ergo any samurai found to be a ninja would have been put to death immediately.

Basically: Some ninja were samurai but if anyone knew they were ninja other than those they served and their fellow ninja they would forfeit all membership in the samurai caste. And many ninja beside were not samurai, merely bushi of some form of another since ANYONE who picked up a weapon in Japan and committed themselves to its use was a bushi by definition. And yeah: nothing mystical or magical about them. They were just assassins and spies with really good (frightening) PR.

I am curious why they refer to the Koga and Iga as samurai however. All of the historical reading I have done indicates that the Koga primarily lived as members of the farming and artisan castes while the Iga lived primarily as ashigaru and other soldier-types. Certainly not as samurai; I suspect it may have something to do with an odd habit of confusing the word bushi with samurai in which all swordsmen of Japan become Samurai. Pretty inaccurate.

[Khabbi]

I cant tell you more then to read better books =) that arent wrong =)

coz your wrong

[IsahoNaginata]

Well you could start by telling me what books to read.

I generally read only books that are suggested to me by the professors at my university. I initially only took books at their suggestion cause I knew they would be in the university bookstore, usually in the text book section. So what books do you recommend, khabbi-senpai?

[Khabbi]

well , hemingway ,shakespear , terry pratchett is gold , AA Milne for the inner child . Michel Jackson books ( the whisky writer not the weird pop dude).
Hiroshi Ozawa's kendo book is damn good , Tom Clancey has some good books . Lama Surya Das has writen some good books .

As for books on Japan , AJ Bryant and Stephen Turnbull is a good start.

as for sites:

start with http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

then www.samurai-archives.com then the forum .

AJ Bryants site is good too

have fun :smiley:

[IsahoNaginata]

Well, Shakespeare is excellent and so is Hemmingway. I'll have to disagree with you about Pratchett though. The other authors you mentioned I have never encountered and I generally do not trust anything I encounter on the internet. I prefer to stick to academic texts, such as those written by Ryusaku Tsunoda, Theodore de Bary, and Donald Keene.

[Shiro]

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm


You mind if I post a thread with this link? :D

[Aden]

I am curious why they refer to the Koga and Iga as samurai however. All of the historical reading I have done indicates that the Koga primarily lived as members of the farming and artisan castes while the Iga lived primarily as ashigaru and other soldier-types. Certainly not as samurai; I suspect it may have something to do with an odd habit of confusing the word bushi with samurai in which all swordsmen of Japan become Samurai. Pretty inaccurate.

This being the lounge I suppose its the right place for it - repeat 100 times - Ashigaru were Samurai - leastwise post 1590 or so. Very much lower class samurai but still samurai class. Anyone who had picked up a weapon and seen combat during the Sengoku was stuck when the samurai were seperated from the farmers.

Aden

[IsahoNaginata]

My understanding is that ashigaru were bushi. Just like samurai were bushi. Many ashigaru were peasant soldiers and a good number of them only fought when they were conscripted to do so. When the four castes were developed ashigaru did not become samurai; it was samurai who had also been farmers that ceased to be farmers. I believe the decision was that samurai could no longer own land (they could only hold it for their lord) and so those 'country samurai' who were also farmers had to choose between being samurai or being farmers.

Ashigaru continued to be conscripted or professional soldiers thereafter but they were not given the same social rights and priviledges as the samurai class; ergo they were not samurai at all. Though many ashigaru did take their history as ashigaru just as seriously as many samurai.

[JimB]

A really good book I have been reading lately regarding the development of martial arts in Japan and the samurai is Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook's Secrets of the Samurai - The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan. The book is an excellent resource for anyone wanting to learn more about feudal Japan. In addition it has an extensive bibliography for anyone who would like to research further into this interesting era of Japanese history. I really highly recommend this book, but sadly I have only found it at Barnes and Noble in the clearance section. I have no idea if it is still available online or not, but it is well worth the $$$ if you find it. In addition to the samurai's role in shaping Japan's history it also mentions the role of samurai women, ronin, heimin (farmers), the militant Buddhist clergy (virtually exterminated by Oda Nobunaga), otokodate (merchant class bushi) and the the ever popular ninja.

One of the points the book makes regarding the ashigaru was that while many were elevated to higher ranks (the Shogun Hideyoshi was one of the most famous) most returned to working the fields or became merchants to supplement their income as their allotment of rice was pretty meager. They were the lowest of the military ranks (besides the chugen or assistants) and were often conscripted.

[Nabeel]

http://www.ninjado.org/index.htm

I guess this would be the first Chinese form on ninja?

[neko kenshi]

I have no good source except that of the history channel and the book shogun, but I was under the impression that ninjas were more like asassins that would pretend to be gardeners or something and were skillful martial artists. I was also under the impression that samurai despised ninjas because they believed they were unhonorable in their methods. Was I mistaken? Tank you for any affirmations and or corrections on this subject.

[Infinity]

You lie!

Three words....

Real Ultimate Power!!!!!

:devious: yes yes!
realultimatepower.com
i am a believer...