Sonkyo "Gesture"?

[PaulK]

Hey guys,

just discovered this clip here:

http://kendo-krefeld.de/video/dem08_m%E4nnerfinale2.wmv

Anyone know what this "gesture" with the hands during the sonkyo means?

[b8amack]

I've never seen it before. Maybe it means "Meh. Let's just practice tsuba-zeriai and hiki-waza for eight minutes."

[rfoxmich]

Never seen it before either.. I suppose it's somewhat more polite than the other possible gesture I'm familiar with: where you remove the kote of your right hand hold your right fist forward and extend the middle finger ;-)

[shred_lord]

I've never seen it before. Maybe it means "Meh. Let's just practice tsuba-zeriai and hiki-waza for eight minutes."
That's a bit disparaging don't you think.

[b8amack]

I guess so, yes. Is that worse than reproachful?

[Legionario]

That's definitely curious. I've never ever seen something of the like.
So I'll wait for someone here in the forum to shed some light on the meaning of this gesture.

And the kote awarded to the red kenshi at the beginning of the match was out of target and full on the elbow...

[Oroshi]

I've watched this twice now and I can't spot what you're all talking about. Could somebody tell me where it occurs in the video?

[b8amack]

Right at the beginning, before they start, when they ground their shinai and extend their open hands to each other.

[Oroshi]

Duh, I was being stupid and downloaded the wrong video (couldn't get it with a direct download so I got what I thought was the right one from the site). Ignore me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Edit: saw the video, agree that I haven't seen that etiquette before. Some koryu stuff maybe? But why in a kendo match? The rest of the site looks OK. They're affiliated with all the right orgs, or at least show the links, and the photos look like standard stuff.

[Hisham]

Curious gesture indeed. As rfoxmich suggested that might be a more polite version of sonkyo or IMHO one of those rare etiquette differences that depend on the original dojo from which the teaching of one's sensei stems from.

[b8amack]

Maybe it's a German thing?

[Czymra]

Definitely not standard German. Maybe they belong to the Masons' foundation of Kendo. ;)

[Legionario]

I have noticed that both have the same patch of the Deutscher Kendo Bund sewn on the left sleeve. So they probably are member of the german national team - of Ulmer I can say for sure - and since they are likely to know each other, that gesture must be some kind of inner thing they use among them.

[Missingno.]

Whatever it is, I suspect it's not something they normally do, because the red kenshi forgets to do it when they are bowing out.

[b8amack]

He may have been pissed about losing. You can sometimes see people "forgetting" to bow, after a big match.

[rfoxmich]

Welll actually I was making fun f it. In the U.S. extending the middle finger vertically to a person is considered insulting. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_(gesture)



Curious gesture indeed. As rfoxmich suggested that might be a more polite version of sonkyo or IMHO one of those rare etiquette differences that depend on the original dojo from which the teaching of one's sensei stems from.

[unworthy]

Well, the other guy Schullcke is the new coach of the German National Team, who was an active member for at least some years now. Both have some kendo-ties to clubs in Kanto region and no koryu affiliation as far as I know.

I have seen before that a 7dan from Hyogo-ken put the tsuka on the floor for sokyo before Jigeiko in similar fashion, but I thought that it was only to keep balance for that moment. There was nothing special about his opponent and he didn't do that before later jigeiko, as far as I remember. That both do it at the same time and this hand movement is something new to me. Frankly it looks a little bit ridiculous, but perhaps I'm an ignorant bastard. I could contact this 7dan by email and ask, but then I know another guy who I might ask before.

Funny is that I did something like that (to keep balance... yeah, I'm getting weak) before Jigeiko about one year ago in Germany and my partner said: "Yeah, haha. I've seen that too!". Finally I understand what he meant, so thanks for posting the vid.

[nebosuke]

It’s called the Bullwinkle, and is accompanied by saying “nothing up my sleeve”.

[still learning]

Hey guys,

Anyone know what this "gesture" with the hands during the sonkyo means?

I started learning Kendo in a group that was UBER traditional [British Kendo Renmei] - and this gesture was employed to ask '...may I enter the floor area......... or ...' shall we begin [bashing one another'.

Essentially - - and sometimes literally - one is saying 'onegaishimasu'..........

[hyuna]

I started learning Kendo in a group that was UBER traditional [British Kendo Renmei] - and this gesture was employed to ask '...may I enter the floor area...
I'm curious as to the origins for the tradition. I can't see any way for it to work with a sword, so I am a bit dubious as to its status as a "traditional" gesture.

[PaulK]

It´s really to bad that no one has more informations about the background of this gesture.


Edit: saw the video, agree that I haven't seen that etiquette before. Some koryu stuff maybe? But why in a kendo match? The rest of the site looks OK. They're affiliated with all the right orgs, or at least show the links, and the photos look like standard stuff.

Nah.. this clip was from the German individual final of 2008, so neither this nor the page it is hosted on is fancy prancy McDojo stuff. That other guy Schullcke can also be seen in the famous "9th dan" keiko clip of the ZNKR anniversary, at the end of the vid he stands ready to bring a towel and some water to Taniguchi Sensei.

Even though it is OT, during a Korea trip a German fellow told me that this Schullcke managed to score 2 kaeshi do against the Japanese taisho Takahashi during the 11. WKC in Santa Clara.

There is also this picture of him (obviously during this incident) existing:
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6136/shapeimage6.jpg

Any suggestions on this one?

[tango]

that's one of the stranger things I've seen in some time. ...

[Nik.Koch]

I think I saw this gesture during a Koryu Kata Demo somewhere on the net. There is certainly no place for this in Kendo especially in shiai. To my understanding of shinpan this could be hansoku also.

[LarsCW]

I've never seen this before. The only reason why I could think this would be done is because someone would have a slight problem moving down into sonkyo