Koryu Budo online vs. real world

[Bruce Mitchell]

I wanted to start a new thread to ask a question of my fellow cyber-world budoka. When reading in this forum (or any other for that matter) there is an abundance of people who seem to be in possession of a lot of information on koryu (and even more opinions). The fascination with koryu seems to cross cultures and borders, and be shared by men and women alike.

Why then, if there is so much interest in koryu, are there so few people studying them? For instance, I live and train in the San Francisco bay area of the United States, which has a population of at least 7 million people. There are 11 kendo dojos in the Northern California Kendo Federation (and two naginata dojos in the Northern California Naginata Federation), and so hundreds of folks practicing JSA. On top of this there are dozens of traditional karate, judo, aikido, and aikijujutsu dojos around the Bay Area, not to mention hundreds, if not over one thousand non-traditional dojos claiming to do Japanese arts. I won't even get into the Chinese martial arts, but there are a lot of them as well.

Yet, in spite of the potential pool of interested folks, the koryu dojo I practice at have on average about five to seven students. The koryu world is fairly small, and when I have had the chance to meet with other koryu students/teachers this number of students stays pretty consistent. Turnover is low, and it's not like a lot of people come and even check things out, in my experience maybe one or two people per year. So where is everyone?

I'm not advocating for bigger classes, nor for popularizing these arts, I'm just curious about the disconnect between the level of interest on-line versus real life. Any thoughts?

[hl1978]

There aren't that many instructors to begin with, even fewer who are "allowed" to teach, and not everyone teaches publicly/to the uninvited. Even then they seem to have their own inside/outside dynamic for what they show their own students or the outside and what they will allow their own students to show.

It makes for good quality control and for preservation of an art and as such, they seem unconcerned for gaining a massively large number of students.

[Tim Atkinson]

Anyone practising a koryu has to have a direct relationship with the licensed teacher. How many meaningful relationships can one teacher sustain over the 15-20 year period required to reach a position where the process can be duplicated?
It has always been, and will remain to be, about quality and not quantity. As almost all koryu have some caveat about not making money from the school, they set themselves up in such a way that a large number of students are not required for the schools financial survival at least. Any full time dojo that comes to mind that teaches a koryu will always have a back bone of Aikido or similar.
A lot of effort is expected from the perspective student even before they entry the dojo. We are talking about a life long relationship, with commitment from both sides. No one wants a casual relationship, if you need to work hard to get in the door then you are less likely to leave after a month or two.

[Kim Taylor]

I think the assumption that there are lots of people online that are interested is not quite justified Bruce. Only a very small percentage of the very small percentage of the population that looks at this forum is interested in koryu. I actually suspect that there are more people practicing koryu than talk about it online.

As to why the koryu don't have more people participating... they are not particularly appealing to the general population to begin with and what discussion they do receive online tends to fetishize them as elite groups who only accept people of the "right type" to do mysterious things involving esoteric buddhism. Further, most groups out there are said to be fakes and frauds, including groups from Japan which are not approved by the net community.

Who would want to bother checking out something like that? It's stuffy and way too serious to be any fun at all, all this preserving of ancient culture and concern about true lines. Not what I would take up as a hobby or a self defence were I looking around now.

And if, by some strange chance, someone actually wants to attend a class they are told they'll be taught some watered down version until they can prove themselves worthy.

Finally, when they do show up they find out that the much discussed and anticipated koryu looks a lot like that damned boring kendo no kata stuff!

Even more interesting if we're talking about internet chatter is that those groups which do have a relatively high percentage of koryu students, the various kendo federations, are regularly revealed as practicing a watered down, de-masculinized version of the true koryu.

However, 25% of the members of the CKF practice either iaido or jodo (and all of them practice a koryu alongside the kendo forms), so I'm not too worried about the survival and popularity of those particular koryu that are practiced here in Canada, I also suspect that well less than ten percent of the koryu students in the CKF even look at martial arts forums... very few of them post that's for sure. Hence my counter proposal that more people practice than post.

Kim.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Hi Kim,
Thanks for the well thought out reply. It makes a lot of sense to me.

[michaelm]

I wonder what the ratio is of gendai budo to koryu budo in Japan?
I would not be surprised if it's astronomically greater than the Bay Area.

[babayaga]

Yet, in spite of the potential pool of interested folks, the koryu dojo I practice at have on average about five to seven students. The koryu world is fairly small, and when I have had the chance to meet with other koryu students/teachers this number of students stays pretty consistent. Turnover is low, and it's not like a lot of people come and even check things out, in my experience maybe one or two people per year. So where is everyone?

I'm not advocating for classes, nor for popularizing these arts, I'm just curious about the disconnect between the level of interest on-line versus real life. Any thoughts?

Emphasis mine.

A couple of thoughts: five to seven is a pretty good number, and I'd say four or five is the maximum number you can have in a session and maintain a really good percentage of one-on-one time with the instructor. This is koryu, with the stream/flow—流—being the operative feature. It's about the transmission, not chiefly about having "x" or "y" skill. How much transmission can go on in a class of twenty?

Been there, done that—it's not much.

And as Kim said, there's really just not a lot of appeal out there for koryu, because it isn't all springing up in the air with a sword instantly deployed ready to smite one's imaginary enemies just like in all those YouTube videos of Otake Sensei. It's a lot of hard work and commitment (oh, the "c" word! You know something of what I'm doing, Bruce, and believe me I thought long and hard before even paying that first visit). Logistically, many people can't sign on to something like that, especially the younger folks with kids and advanced degrees in progress and, in this economy, second careers.

I think also that koryu requires an ability to be honest with oneself and others which is sadly lacking these days. People of my generation (40-something) grew up with role-playing games and fantasies and avatars, and it can be more than a bit threatening to be asked by the training to pare those constructs away. Easier to put on more layers, than to strip off the extraneous. Easier to be an armchair (or computer chair) enthusiast, than to bow in and pick up the weapons and add your sweat to the flow.

Ultimately, though, I don't know why more people don't do koryu. I think it's wonderful, and I really can't comprehend why other people don't think so, though I can accept that they do.

-Beth

[Bruce Mitchell]

Hi Beth,
I agree with what both you and others here have written (for the most part). In the replies to my post, everyone so far has focused on the participation end of things, which is not what I was really asking about. I am talking about people who express interest on-line, versus people who express interest in person. For example, I can think of times where the class I am in has gone two to three years without a single visitor. I still find it curious that more people don't drop by to watch/check out classes.

Actually, re-reading my original post I guess I was also talking about people practicing them...

[babayaga]

I am talking about people who express interest on-line, versus people who express interest in person. For example, I can think of times where the class I am in has gone two to three years without a single visitor. I still find it curious that more people don't drop by to watch/check out classes.

Well, how many koryu make it easy for people to just drop by and watch? How many koryu have sessions on multiple days a week, at varying times, for the convenience of members? How many are housed in a dedicated space rather than relegated to "off" hours of a space primarily used for something else?

You see more "visitors" on-line because, like I said before, it's easy to explore and research on-line. But if someone sticks with it, and does the research, and pursues the links, and finally gets to that in-person visit, then part of the winnowing has already been done. A koryu visit is not a drop-in sort of thing.

I think, once you know what koryu is about, the dojo visit is really there to see if you and the teacher are a good fit. Think about someone visiting a dojo or training session for some of the empty hand stuff like aikido, karate, and tae kwon do. For those situations, it's usually the variety of classes and schedule and fees which are the primary considerations: "What can the art do for me?" Polar opposite to the koryu visit, where the question is, "Is this potential student a good addition to the ryu?"

Again, I think both the numbers of participants and visitors you see reflect those difficulties and differences.

-Beth

[stealth_monkey]

Well, how many koryu make it easy for people to just drop by and watch? How many koryu have sessions on multiple days a week, at varying times, for the convenience of members? How many are housed in a dedicated space rather than relegated to "off" hours of a space primarily used for something else?

Perhaps I've misunderstood what koryu are, but I can count half a dozen koryu dojos in sydney with a web presence, who actively recruit for new members. I'm also not sure where all this commitment and spending your life in pursuit of the art comes from by the same token, maybe our experiences are just different when it comes to koryu.



And as Kim said, there's really just not a lot of appeal out there for koryu, because it isn't all springing up in the air with a sword instantly deployed ready to smite one's imaginary enemies just like in all those YouTube videos of Otake Sensei. It's a lot of hard work and commitment (oh, the "c" word! You know something of what I'm doing, Bruce, and believe me I thought long and hard before even paying that first visit). Logistically, many people can't sign on to something like that, especially the younger folks with kids and advanced degrees in progress and, in this economy, second careers.

I think also that koryu requires an ability to be honest with oneself and others which is sadly lacking these days. People of my generation (40-something) grew up with role-playing games and fantasies and avatars, and it can be more than a bit threatening to be asked by the training to pare those constructs away. Easier to put on more layers, than to strip off the extraneous. Easier to be an armchair (or computer chair) enthusiast, than to bow in and pick up the weapons and add your sweat to the flow.

I'm sure I misunderstood, but while I'm posting anyway, I'm slightly concerned as to your opinion of non-koryu martial artists, do we somehow work less or just want to pretend to be ninjas because of the style we practise? I'm sure it was unintentional, but the way that came across is a bit "people don't study koryu because they can't hack it, so they practise other martial arts"

[Josh Reyer]

Perhaps I've misunderstood what koryu are, but I can count half a dozen koryu dojos in sydney with a web presence, who actively recruit for new members. I'm also not sure where all this commitment and spending your life in pursuit of the art comes from by the same token, maybe our experiences are just different when it comes to koryu.The commitment in koryu is slightly different in that one is not merely responsible for one's own improvement, but implicit in participation is a commitment to pass down the koryu correctly and intact to the next generation. Gendai arts are largely standardized, so this is less of an issue. But in koryu one must make a commitment to fit oneself into the particular mindset and physical paradigm of the ryu, with a minimum of influence from outside sources. That's not something everybody is interested in doing.

Commitment in terms of hard work, blood, sweat, and tears, that's not different at all.


I'm sure I misunderstood, but while I'm posting anyway, I'm slightly concerned as to your opinion of non-koryu martial artists, do we somehow work less or just want to pretend to be ninjas because of the style we practise? I'm sure it was unintentional, but the way that came across is a bit "people don't study koryu because they can't hack it, so they practise other martial arts"I think I can express babayaga's idea with an example from my own life.

Because of their long histories and tendency in general to work from a menkyo/menjo system rather than a dan-i system, koryu can seem very romantic, and that romanticism can draw people in. I, for example, being interested in history, found the idea of koryu to be very romantic, and I had this idea in my head of learning a sogo-bujutsu, steadily advancing through the levels, learning all sorts of medieval weaponry until one day I would be a MENKYO KAIDEN. Upon joining, however, I found that there were no ranks, no menkyo or menjo, not even the multiple weaponry of a sogo-bujutsu. Just a fukuro-shinai and skilled practice partners. And far from the high-speed clack-clack of bokuto smacking together, the kata were at times slow, and stylized to a certain extent. Basically all of my expectations, particularly my romantic preconceptions, were overturned, and I had to ask myself if I really wanted to do this. For me, personally, what was there was actually much more interesting and deeper than my preconceptions, so I stayed. For others, not finding what they wanted, they may prefer something else.

On the whole, I can't imagine babayaga's description of armchair/computer chair enthusiasts being applicable to anyone actually putting the work into a gendai budo, since they are out there sweating in the dojo. One could, in fact, make a similar point about gendai budo: with all the sword-slingers on youtube, why aren't they joining a real kendo or iaido dojo? Because the actual practice of kendo and iaido doesn't match their romantic preconceptions of sword-training, so they'd rather hold on to their preconceptions than put those away and put in the sweat to learn kendo or iaido.

[b8amack]

To be honest, I think Josh has the right of it. All the koryu discussion on this site has made me realize they weren't for me, without ever joining a dojo.

[babayaga]

On the whole, I can't imagine babayaga's description of armchair/computer chair enthusiasts being applicable to anyone actually putting the work into a gendai budo, since they are out there sweating in the dojo. One could, in fact, make a similar point about gendai budo: with all the sword-slingers on youtube, why aren't they joining a real kendo or iaido dojo? Because the actual practice of kendo and iaido doesn't match their romantic preconceptions of sword-training, so they'd rather hold on to their preconceptions than put those away and put in the sweat to learn kendo or iaido.

Thanks, Josh; you expressed the jist of my feelings quite nicely.

-Beth

[Scotty Allen]

... For example, I can think of times where the class I am in has gone two to three years without a single visitor. I still find it curious that more people don't drop by to watch/check out classes. ...

Our dojo is in a fairly busy public fitness facility. There is ample opportunity for people to watch but it is very seldom that anyone does. I have heard the occasional comment such as "damn, that looks boring" I can't speak for Kendo, but Iaido is not much of a spectator sport ... especially if these "spectators" happen to drop by while we are doing Mae 50 times followed by Shohato 50 times.

[chidokan]

I also think it appeals to a particular mindset... If we did a poll on here to work out who does koryu, then examine job/hobbies/what makes them tick, I wouldn't mind betting they are similar people...and would probably do any koryu, they just do the one they happened to bump into is all...
I would class them as 'problem solvers'...they get a 'question' and have to answer it... that seems to be the 'hook' for most of us anyway...

[atgm]

I wonder what the ratio is of gendai budo to koryu budo in Japan?
I would not be surprised if it's astronomically greater than the Bay Area.

Gendai most likely wins, hands down. Consider that basically every junior high, senior high, and any kind of tertiary educational institution will have at the least, a judo club. Probably kendo and kyuudo. Possibly karate. Possibly aikido.

[rjhartu]

My school only has kendo, no judo.

Koryu in Japan is very difficult to find more so than you would think. Every town no matter how small have karate, judo or kendo.
Koryu is unfortunately dying out. If someone tells you they study koryu... there should always be a paper trail that leads directly to Japan. If it doesn't then most likely the person that supposedly trains in Koryu is probably lying.

There aren't that many foreigners that do train in koryu, and most that do, don't have all that much time spent doing it at the source.
Gendai sports are far more accessible for everyone, that's including Japan.

[Josh Reyer]

I live in Nagoya, the fourth largest city in Japan. I can't throw a stick without hitting some koryu. Off the top of my head, there are three (maybe four) separate lines of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Hozoin-ryu and Owari Kan-ryu sojutsu, and Shinto Muso-ryu Jo, all in the city alone. Neighboring Mie has Shingyoto-ryu kenjutsu, neighboring Gifu has Sekiguchi-ryu iai, and neighboring Shizuoka has Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginata. If you live in Aichi, Gifu, or Shizuoka, koryu is easy to find. It could be that the Tokai area, and specifically Aichi, is unique, but I daresay this is true of most areas.

[Kent Enfield]

Even out in the boonies where I was, there was plenty of koryu. Any individual koryu might be hard to find, but within about 45-minute's travel there were two different lines of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, and Muso Shinden Ryu, Ono-ha Itto Ryu, and another line of Itto Ryu that was only taught by that one group. If you expanded travel time to 1.5 hours to get to Sendai (less if you drove on the expressway), you added several more groups of iaido of multiple and rare flavors, two more lines of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, Morishige Ryu hojutsu, Jikishinkage Ryu naginatajutsu, and two separate lines of Shinto Muso Ryu. Then there were koryu-esque gendai budo: Toyama Ryu, Daito Ryu, Hakko Ryu, etc. And that's just the stuff I had seen or heard about.

[Are2]

...and neighboring Shizuoka has Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginata.

And, most importantly, the honbu of Suio-ryu.

[rjhartu]

It's a difference of scale. Tokyo, Kyoto, Nagoya... really big cities will have more dojos. If you pick any given town you aren't going to find that many koryu there. You have to travel a bit, in comparison for Karate, Judo, kendo, aikido, you don't have to travel anywhere.

Shinto muso ryu is everywhere, muso shinden ryu is everywhere, mostly due to kendo and the jo.

Compare a koryu dojo with maybe an average of 4-10 people in it and, then compare it to a kendo or judo dojo with 40-60 people in it give or take the area.

Koryu isn't that popular and is kind of dying out. Everyone I see in the koryu dojos are in the 50s I don't see that many younger students.

[Josh Reyer]

It's a difference of scale. Tokyo, Kyoto, Nagoya... really big cities will have more dojos. If you pick any given town you aren't going to find that many koryu there. You have to travel a bit, in comparison for Karate, Judo, kendo, aikido, you don't have to travel anywhere.
Very true. But that doesn't mean koryu is hard to find. Rather, it's pretty easy to find.


Shinto muso ryu is everywhere, muso shinden ryu is everywhere, mostly due to kendo and the jo.
Which again, points out that it's pretty easy to find.


Compare a koryu dojo with maybe an average of 4-10 people in it and, then compare it to a kendo or judo dojo with 40-60 people in it give or take the area.
My koryu dojo has 30-35 regulars.


Koryu isn't that popular and is kind of dying out. Everyone I see in the koryu dojos are in the 50s I don't see that many younger students.
Any one ryuha is certain in a more precarious position than, say, kendo. But koryu as a whole are doing well enough. Two major organizations representing over 70 ryuha, multiple embukai throughout the year, many ryuha registered as Intangible Cultural Assets... Koryu are doing better now than they were in the Meiji period. The embu taikai I've attended have always featured many younger practitioners in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. Even some kids, depending on the ryuha. Shinto Muso-ryu, Owari-kan-ryu, and Yakumaru Jigen-ryu being three in particular that have children practitioners.

Koryu being small is a desired feature, not an unfortunate bug.