Article: The Internationalisation of Kendo and the Olympic Problem

[mingshi]

Hey... I wonder why there is no official thread here at the forums when the site has been updated with an online-exclusive article!! :rolleyes:

A very interesting read, by the way.

Not sure what this would mean, but I find this piece of news from S Korea today:-

S Korea Olympics man suspended (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3423901.stm)

[jmarsten]

Way Cool Alex, really covered the thinking of many around the world.

[Karaken]

Way Cool Alex, really covered the thinking of many around the world.

It is a challenge for sure. But like everything else under the sun, nothing stays the same. Kendo will evolve and I'm afraid, eventually, it will gravitate towards the Olympic Sport. Either we can participate to preserve some aspect we treasure or just watch the transition from the sideline and wonder what we could have done. Maybe we should try to discover ways for Kendo to become an Olympic sport still preserving some aspect we've grown to love.

Center ( Yes, I love the concept of Center - we should keep this one )

[AlexM]

Cool article (finally something to discuss beyond debating the existence of modern samurai!).

The Olympic argument has been done already but still, I'm gald that the article went a bit deeper to look at the "malaise" in modern budo (winning is everything?...).

I think what we see today in this respect could possibly be compared to what happened in modern sport from the 19th century onwards: the amateurs vs. professionals debate. (i.e. Amateur sport is a tool for personal development, professional sport is just vulgar). The Olympics are professional of course (even if the athletes don't get paid): it's a contest where money is the great motivating factor, where winning at all cost must be achieved (whether because a government wants a return on their investment in "amateur" sport or because Olympics Inc. want to make sure the sponsor's money still flows to its coffers).

Should kendo become an Olympic sport I think it would lose all sense of budo: It would become a professional sport (even if the players themselves made no money off of it). Doping, bad sportsmanship, judging mistakes and subsequent protests to the IOC, etc... would all become common-place.

So I have a question for our esteemed web-hosts (that means the dudes that run KW... or anyone else):

Is the concept of budo close to what used to be called "amateur sport"?
Is any form of budo is in essence a way of developing oneself through physical exercise? Nothing else?

[KhawMengLee]

Is the concept of budo close to what used to be called "amateur sport"?
Is any form of budo is in essence a way of developing oneself through physical exercise? Nothing else?

Budo...it's an art. The comparison I would make here is between pop/crap/music and real music. Artists like the Tea Party, Tool, etc...put heart and soul into the music. They develop their skills and explore the boundries of the music to the fullest...the crap we get out there in the "POP" world is all catchy jingles. flashy shows and basically a festering pile of dog turds that the collective public seem so willing to digest.

Budo has love and heart in it. The majority of us who do kendo and who one day may compete at an international level...we are all amatuers(barring nations like Japan, Korea etc). But thru our passion and love of the game do we shine. I feel the way kendo is to day...even losing to someone teaches you about yourself...there is a deeper meaning to kendo or budo...a soul that most olympic sports have lost. The Olympics is just like pop music...the flashy lights and pageantry that is forgotten the minute the TV is turned off.

KEEP KENDO OUT OF THE OLYMPICS!

[Shiro]

KEEP KENDO OUT OF THE OLYMPICS!

I totally agree!

The Olympics were about amateurs and the beauty of sports, now it's about big money, big stars and a couple of other sports you never see anywhere else........
This would be really harmful to kendo because more people will do it "just because they want to practice a sport". Kendo is definitely more than a sport and I don't want to see Nike making bogu's :p.

[niji]

I totally agree!

The Olympics were about amateurs and the beauty of sports, now it's about big money, big stars and a couple of other sports you never see anywhere else........
This would be really harmful to kendo because more people will do it "just because they want to practice a sport". Kendo is definitely more than a sport and I don't want to see Nike making bogu's :p.

me too... i don wan kendo in olympics. Neither i wan fila or nike symbol on the equipment.

Kendo is a form of art. More than about wining the game. :smoker:

[dorkusxmaximus]

Nike bogus do sound pretty kewl LOL. Anyway, I'm not really for kendo in the olympics either because just look at what happened to judo and karate!!! Some dumb-ass in judo refused to bow for something, and I think that person sued the IOC and won. God, I will never want to see anything like this in kendo. It just pisses me off. IF kendo was in the olympics, we would probably see people using power-enhancing drugs or some crap like that.

[souljah]

I think the IKF should join the General Association of Sports Federations (GAISF) before the WKA if they want to keep some control over the future of kendo. They might be part of the Olympic movement, but they would have the power to choose whether or not kendo becomes an Olympic sport, as they would be the offical international representatives of kendo.

If kendo does become an Olympic sport, I think it would definitely accelerate the shift from correct/pure kendo to strong/sport kendo. However, if kendo is kept out of the Olympics, the issue of 'correct' vs 'strong' kendo is still an important one.

[aru-ma]

As said before, the "should kendo be in the olympics" argument has been done to death, after readng alex's great piece of work and discussing with several other people one question comes to mind, why does it seem necessary for kendo to be in the olympics seeing that many martial arts and sports are not in the olympics and yet are still popular?

[Karaken]

As said before, the "should kendo be in the olympics" argument has been done to death, after readng alex's great piece of work and discussing with several other people one question comes to mind, why does it seem necessary for kendo to be in the olympics seeing that many martial arts and sports are not in the olympics and yet are still popular?

I know that argument has beend made. However, knowing that our opinions here in the forum may not count that much towards whether Kendo should or shouldn't be a part of Olympics, can we talk about what we can do if it was determined that Kendo is becoming a part of Olympics?

Some examples..

1. I quit - right away - don't want Nike Shinai - Start ( or concentrate only on ) iaido
2. Immediately start discussing how the judgement category should be and how to prevent fencing like-electronic device coming to Kendo.
3. Start preparing to join National Olympic team
4. Take steps to separate my dojo from Olympic participating dojos

Center

[Anjin-san]

I'm a little late by the sounds of things, but does anyone else get the feeling that WKA wants to make Kendo olympic simply to show the IKF how much control they have over kendo? I can appreciate the advantage of kendo becoming more and more popular due to the olympics, but that advantage is made irrelevant if kendo ceases to be kendo as we know it today. The disadvantages simply outweigh the benefits and it seems like it all boils down to national pride.

I doubt that any IKF registered kendo practitioner would be allowed to compete in olympic kendo without revoking membership from their national federation, and consequently only be allowed to practice at kumdo dojangs.

Like Alex mentions in his article, this will possibly split kendo up into sport Kendo and 'before olympics' kendo, or more specifically, Kendo and Kumdo. Unfortunarely due to extra popularity generated by the olympcs, this means that pre-olympic kendo will be much less widely practiced than Kumdo.

I have no idea whether any of that is good or bad in the long run, but thats what IMHO is going to happen eventually, but I'll stop since I'm rambling.

What I'm going to do if kendo (and even if it doesn't) become part of the olympics:

-Practice Kata lots
-Practice Kata some more
-Make bigger (but just as fast) cuts in shiai/keiko
-Concentrate on zanshin
-Take up Iaido
-Try and get other newbies like me to do the same

<rei>

[aru-ma]

I just realized something, if kendo becomes an olympic event it will be one of the other events that are 'based' on combat use along with javelin, disc throwing, that other one with the lead ball, wrestling, pole vault, archery, etc.

[Yosho]

Quite frankly, I don't think there should be Olympics at all. They've simply become a burden, its reported that Athens 2004 will spend almost 2 billion dollars on security (the US alone contributing a billion). That's a horrific waste on games, that 2 billion could be going to feed the world's poor. But since that isn't going to happen, I'm against Kendo in the Olympics for all the same reasons mentioned above.

[mingshi]

Neither i want fila or nike symbol on the equipment.
Does it make any difference if the E-bogu logo is on your hakama?
(they do)

...billions could be going to feed the world's poor.
You may well be considering not to watch any of the Miss World and motor-racing as well. Resources are never to be shared, but to be exploited.

[Octaviuz]

Due to a small mix-up involving the language barrier of being a foreigner in Korea, the dojang I've ended up in is part of a small schismatic faction (大韓本國劍道, for those who were wondering). At first I feared that my sensei (師範 in korean) was allied with the WKA (who, as described in the article, have suggested such things as electronic scoring), but after listening to him inveigh against mainstream kendo as a "sport", a "Japanese sport" at that, I'm pretty sure he's not a supporter of Olympic kendo.

I'd be worried about taking the thread off-topic but since no one's reading it anyway I'll describe Bonkuk Kumdo.
It's essentially two different things, one is an Iaido-like discipline done with a real blade (beginners like me use bokken of course) which involves some pretty impressive sword-waving and leaping about (OK, I admit, it's nothing like Iaido except for being done individually). The other part is standard kendo except that calves are a fourth legal target (And the bogu is all emblazoned with the yin-yang logo from the korean flag, just to remind you that it's not japanese, in case you hadn't noticed).

PS If you think I'm amused by JP/KR rivalry, you are correct. (Yes I'm aware of the very serious historical grounds for it.)

[Lucien]

Let's not make kendo an olympic sport because I love it too much to watch it being dragged through the mud after the inevitable money, drugs and other scandals hit.

What's next? Cha no yu as a competition? 'Go' players on steriods?

[nollaig]

There seems to be a lot of talk about Jp/KR having "history" togeather.

You can't simplify an argument about history

I'm Irish and could say that England invaded us and ruled us for 800 years
but I would be wrong

People in my country are still killing each other cause of something their great-great-great-greatgrand father said to someones sister at a party about 300years ago!

History is no excuse for stupidity

Kendo/Kumdo can never and will never have mass appeal.
And to attempt to make it so is doomed to fail.
The reason is that too few people want to use and exercise their brains. We live in a world of instant gratification with no effort.
Football on the telly is easy. You don't even need to get out of your chair to get to the match.

Anyone who wants to be a part of Olympic kendo needs to look at what happened to Judo


hope to see you all on the dojo
Noel

[Erikku]

Resources are never to be shared, but to be exploited.
I'm late and off-topic... But I love this quote... Can I quote you Mingshi? :D
Because you just summarized in 10 words what I tried to explain to some people at work about life, money, work, unions...

And that will sit, translated, next to my "RTFM" sign on my office door :)

Kendo in the Olympics? naahh.. As any sports with judges... I mean, if you can throw your javelin farther than me, you won. But if I need a judge to tell me who won... you might as well get electrical shinai and bogu to eliminate refeering misjudgment (spelling?)... activated by a loud shout and good stomping on the ground. Then inside the shinai, the signal will only be sent if it's bent 5 degrees upwards while remaining unparallel (spelling again?) to the ground unless it's a tsuki for which a 2.8 kg pressure on a special tip would allow the conductive contact to be made and light the red or white flashing lights and mega-gong sounds to be made. Would be commented live on tv and radio by hosts who previously lived for birdies in a golf-oriented university tv station. Then I'd have my shinai sponsored and you would read on each side "Air Canada - Most of our flights leave on time".

What a mess...

[Anime12478]

If Kendo were to become an Olympic sport, I am pretty sure that most of us would cry our hearts out while the others either don't have an opinion or would support the move.

Kendo is an art built around tradition and that is what attracts me to it. If Kendo were to become an Olympic sport, then that tradition will be lost to technology. I just can't see myself getting graded by a machine and getting endorsements by the biggest sports companies in the world. The concepts of Ki Ken Tai Ichi and Zanshin will all give way to momentum, strength, and timing.

As you can see, I would be dissappointed, yet I wouldn't cry foul too loudly. If you look at the sports that are participating in the Olympics, for every person competing, there are thousands of others that are involved in that activity for their own personal reasons that don't involve the Olympics. I, for one, will not quit my practice with Kendo. While there will be a technological, sporty, competitive edge to it, I will still believe in the traditional ways of teaching and continue to practice it that way. Besides, if I were to get challenged by an Olympic person I could probably beat them pretty easily (after YEARS of practice though) since I definately believe in "slow and steady wins the race."

Kendo is bound to change, especially as science takes over religion and mysticism (for lack of a better term). But in order to keep our pride and sanity about the things we do, the only way to do it is to spread the word and teach others about the old style. That way, that avenue is available to them, yet it is a personal choice if they want to believe it and practice Kendo for personal improvement or take the route of fame and fortune for Olympic-type status.

[aru-ma]

come to think of it kendo isn't well taken with some kobudo practicioner for similar reason to why most of us dislike the idea of kendo being an olympic event, so even if kendo do turn into an olympic event with all the changes we would probably still do the kendo we do know without taking in any of the changes.

just thought I'd give mymy 2 cents worth

[baysun]

Quite frankly, I don't think there should be Olympics at all. They've simply become a burden, its reported that Athens 2004 will spend almost 2 billion dollars on security (the US alone contributing a billion). That's a horrific waste on games, that 2 billion could be going to feed the world's poor. But since that isn't going to happen, I'm against Kendo in the Olympics for all the same reasons mentioned above.

Great Point!

[timmer]

why not ?

THere is not much budo left in many dojo I have vistited here in the U.S.

Lines of young men in flat bogu swinging shini over their heads moving flat footed saying ich ni san shi with no sense of hara or meaning.

SO different than seeing a 5th or 6th dan who's bukuto work looks like a mystical dance or who's kiai you can feel from accross the room.

Or seeing kendoka performing samuri walks fire walks or doing balloon drills with a blindfolds on. And taking instruction on kongo zen, sorinji Kempo and shinjutsu.

SO much swinging of bats can not compare to a naturaly effortless tai sabaki form that can never be mastered only practiced.

[Lloromannic]

you are smoking rock on a 4 year old thread.

[Anonymous]

in during retarded

[kensenbatusaii]

Budo...it's an art. The comparison I would make here is between pop/crap/music and real music. Artists like the Tea Party, Tool, etc...put heart and soul into the music. They develop their skills and explore the boundries of the music to the fullest...the crap we get out there in the "POP" world is all catchy jingles. flashy shows and basically a festering pile of dog turds that the collective public seem so willing to digest.

Budo has love and heart in it. The majority of us who do kendo and who one day may compete at an international level...we are all amatuers(barring nations like Japan, Korea etc). But thru our passion and love of the game do we shine. I feel the way kendo is to day...even losing to someone teaches you about yourself...there is a deeper meaning to kendo or budo...a soul that most olympic sports have lost. The Olympics is just like pop music...the flashy lights and pageantry that is forgotten the minute the TV is turned off.

KEEP KENDO OUT OF THE OLYMPICS!



I duly believe

that there is a far

sinister reason why

you dont want this

to happen

:chinese::chinese::chinese:


and it is

very

very

very

selfish

[NigelSponge]

I know that argument has beend made. However, knowing that our opinions here in the forum may not count that much towards whether Kendo should or shouldn't be a part of Olympics, can we talk about what we can do if it was determined that Kendo is becoming a part of Olympics?

Some examples..


1. Not do anything different.

Guys, if kendo becomes an Olympic sport, who do you think the athletes are going to be? ALL OF US! If we care about the preservation of the tradition and "道" aspect of kenDO, then what is everyone so worried about? We control the outcome of kendo, if it's in the Olympics or not (and if not us specifically, the top level kendoka in the world do, even better!.) So if you care about kendo staying pure and true to the art, then you have nothing to worry about.

i m h o

[dwez]

Hey... I wonder why there is no official thread here at the forums when the site has been updated with an online-exclusive article!! :rolleyes:

A very interesting read, by the way.


I'm sorry I'm looking but cannot find the article you mention, can I have a link please?

[Paikea]

...very

very

very

selfish
Yaawwwnnnn...how very typical of you to jump on a post four years on and still have absolutely nothing to contribute. Why do you bother?

(would the gentleman now driving the way-too-sexy-for-his-own-good blue R32 please kill the thread?)

[kensenbatusaii]

[QUOTE=Paikea;348552]Yaawwwnnnn...how very typical of you to jump on a post four years on and still have absolutely nothing to contribute. Why do you bother?


i do think

the thread is worth


resurrecting


as it has not been


properly discussed without prejudice

from the likes


of you



you want to know why???


:chinese::chinese::chinese:


i can point out to you

a very strong point


a very strong one!

[Sparv]

You're not even able to quote properly.

……………./´¯/)
……………/…./
…………../…./
……../´¯/’..’/´¯¯`·¸
…../’/../…./……./¨¯\
…(’(…………. ¯~/’..’)
….\…………….’…../
…..’\'……………_.·´
…….\…………..(
……..\…………..\

Holy shit! I'm prejudiced!
(yes, I am in a bad mood right now, no, I do not know the name of the original artist, yes, it is bad to steal someone else's work, yes ,it is of topic, yes, I killed Lee Oswald)