How do you refer to grades?

[atgm]

If you're talking to someone who's unfamiliar with martial arts and the Japanese language, but don't have time to explain the whole grading system, how do you refer to your grade?

For example, would you say yondan? Five-dan? Sixth dan? First-degree black belt?

It gets worse with the kyuu grades, since they're usually colors...

[MiddleEarthNet]

I tell them 1st kyu (rather than ikkyu) and say it is the first of the fully recognised grades.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you're talking to someone who's unfamiliar with martial arts and the Japanese language, but don't have time to explain the whole grading system, how do you refer to your grade?I just say I'm an instructor.

[jjcruiser]

I just say I'm an instructor.

And I just say I'm an enthusiastic beginner.

Someone once pressed me "but what belt is that" and I said "it means I'm testing for a black belt next time I test," but I felt corny after saying it, so now I'm as vague as I can get away with and I say one of the things I like about Kendo is that no one wears colored belts.

[atgm]

Someone once pressed me "but what belt is that" and I said "it means I'm testing for a black belt next time I test," but I felt corny after saying it, so now I'm as vague as I can get away with and I say one of the things I like about Kendo is that no one wears colored belts.

That's the problem I've had, too. Or sometimes people equate it to their karate experience and are like "oh, first dan! You're really high!" Explanations just make their eyes glaze over.

[Daniel_klc]

Yes, it depends.

I would personally avoid the term "Black belt", well... first because I am Ikkyu, :tongue: but also because it is a concept known by everyone, including people who are not Martial arts practicioners.
That would therefore sound arrogant/Ninja and something like " Yeah, I am Black Belt third level".

I would rather use the Japanese terms and explain them to what it corresponds level-wise in a humble way, rather than the above.

For people who do Kendo, I let them guess my grade rather than me telling them. :nervous:

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's the problem I've had, too. Or sometimes people equate it to their karate experience and are like "oh, first dan! You're really high!" Explanations just make their eyes glaze over.

I then use this explanation - first dan in kendo means about 2 years' experience, so like an orange or maybe green belt in judo (locally - pick whatever rank corresponds to 2 years' experience in what they are familiar with). You can't compare grades directly from one martial art to the next.

But overall I would rather use more general terms. In years past I've described myself as an "advanced beginner", "intermediate", "senior student", "junior instructor" and "assistant instructor", corresponding to dans 1 through 5 respectively.

[1stdan]

I yell "Who's the Master" and they respond....Sho Nuff. Now that only works with my dogs as I have no rank in Kendo or Iai. For now. That will change Sunday I hope. AJA I ususally use the Japanese it is our duty as citizens of this earth to educate those around us. I learn daily from my friends and hopefully they learn from me. I am not preachy but i will offer up free info to anyone willing to listen.

[David G]

I just say I'm an instructor.

And do they believe you?



. . runs for cover . . . :D

[b8amack]

Everyone knows what "dan" means, I thought. Most people just ask how long I've "been doing that," though, which is easy enough to answer.

[1 cut 1 kill]

And do they believe you?



. . runs for cover . . . :D

nice !!!!!

[rfoxmich]

I tell them the only true measure of rank is the number of battlefield kills.

[shred_lord]

Badass

[ReKru]

I would personally avoid the term "Black belt", well... first because I am Ikkyu, :tongue: but also because it is a concept known by everyone, including people who are not Martial arts practicioners.
That would therefore sound arrogant/Ninja and something like " Yeah, I am Black Belt third level".

I would rather use the Japanese terms and explain them to what it corresponds level-wise in a humble way, rather than the above.


That the concept is widely known is actually the reason why I use 'black belt' in casual conversation (or when showing off, followed by a long list of my achievements .. there are people where I just can't resist the urge) - it's not accurate at all, but usually they don't really care. *
For people that are really interested in the topic, not just some 'small talk', I usually explain and go into detail (like how often I practice and how long I'm on the mat and ... my long list of my achievements). :D

(* to geeks, I usually tell I'm a lvl 80 Deathknight Prestigeclass IRL!)

[ArcticBlizzard]

When they ask me my rank I ask them if they know about the dan system and how it works. Surprisingly everybody knows about the dan system. I tell them I'm a Mudan, they are/act amazed and give me compliments and such. :calm:


Normally I just explain that in kendo and iaido you start mudan you're gradeless, you can then become 1 kyu, then 1dan what means you showed enough to be considered a beginner that's ready to learn more about kendo/iaido and that the challenge at that point just begins. I also tell them it's not about belts, we don't wear stuff that shows are rank, that technique should be the thing where see the difference between grades and not what colour belt one wears.

[atgm]

Even if they do know the dan system, I don't really want to say I'm "1-dan" simply because it implies a lot more expertise than I have; most people I know who know the dan system are familiar with it from karate, where 1-dan is (I gather) a not-inconsiderable achievement.

[ReKru]

Even if they do know the dan system, I don't really want to say I'm "1-dan" simply because it implies a lot more expertise than I have; most people I know who know the dan system are familiar with it from karate, where 1-dan is (I gather) a not-inconsiderable achievement.

I wonder where that impression that it's a not-inconsiderable acheivement comes from. At least over here in Germany, the formal requirements for 'adults' 14+ (minimal waiting times) are pretty aligned:
Kendo ('german' Style)
6. Kyu -- usually 3-6 month
5. Kyu -- 6 month
4. Kyu -- 6 month
3. Kyu -- 6 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 30 month +
1. Dan -- 1 year
etc.

Shotokan Karate
8. Kyu -- 2 month
7. Kyu -- 3 month
6. Kyu -- 3 month
5. Kyu -- 4 month
4. Kyu -- 4 month
3. Kyu -- 6 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 34 month
1. Dan -- 1 year
2. Dan -- 2 years
3. Dan -- 3 years
4. Dan -- 4 years

Judo (14 years+)
8. Kyu -- 3 month
7. Kyu -- 3 month
6. Kyu -- 3 month
5. Kyu -- 3 month
4. Kyu -- 3 month
3. Kyu -- 3 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 30 month
1. Dan -- 2 years
2. Dan -- 3 years
3. Dan -- 4 years
4. Dan -- 5 years (can be shortened by 1 year per dan grade because of competition success, trainer licence etc.)

They do have more 'belts' and more testing, certainly different 'technical' criteria - maybe people generally taking longer to crawl trough the ranks and therefor a lot more than minimum time when reaching shodan? Shotokan and the DJB Judo are certainly the most popular branches over here.

[Are2]

I think other countries use a bit different system, with less kyu-grades and thus perhaps less time to shodan. I know this is the case with iaido and jodo. I believe we Finns actually borrowed the 6 kyu -system from you.

Now I don't know about karate but I've come to understand that (at least in Finland) 1. dan in judo is really quite an achievement and takes a long time (and some tournament success?) whereas I got my kendo shodan at 16 with... questionable skill. Just goes to show that you can't really compare grades between arts and I tend to avoid mentioning that I have "black belts" in two already.

[MiddleEarthNet]

I wonder where that impression that it's a not-inconsiderable acheivement comes from. At least over here in Germany, the formal requirements for 'adults' 14+ (minimal waiting times) are pretty aligned:
Kendo ('german' Style)
6. Kyu -- usually 3-6 month
5. Kyu -- 6 month
4. Kyu -- 6 month
3. Kyu -- 6 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 30 month +
1. Dan -- 1 year
etc.

Shotokan Karate
8. Kyu -- 2 month
7. Kyu -- 3 month
6. Kyu -- 3 month
5. Kyu -- 4 month
4. Kyu -- 4 month
3. Kyu -- 6 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 34 month
1. Dan -- 1 year
2. Dan -- 2 years
3. Dan -- 3 years
4. Dan -- 4 years

Judo (14 years+)
8. Kyu -- 3 month
7. Kyu -- 3 month
6. Kyu -- 3 month
5. Kyu -- 3 month
4. Kyu -- 3 month
3. Kyu -- 3 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 30 month
1. Dan -- 2 years
2. Dan -- 3 years
3. Dan -- 4 years
4. Dan -- 5 years (can be shortened by 1 year per dan grade because of competition success, trainer licence etc.)

They do have more 'belts' and more testing, certainly different 'technical' criteria - maybe people generally taking longer to crawl trough the ranks and therefor a lot more than minimum time when reaching shodan? Shotokan and the DJB Judo are certainly the most popular branches over here.

Where I do karate (Sankukai) the grading times are more like:
Adult MINIMUM grading times (under 16's is different from about 3rd kyu onwards and no under 16's 2nd dan onwards).
8th kyu: 8 weeks
7th kyu: 4 months from previous grade
6th kyu: 4 months from previous grade
5th kyu: 4 months from previous grade
4th kyu: 4 months from previous grade
3rd kyu: 4 months from previous grade
2nd kyu: 6 months from previous grade
1st kyu: 6 months from previous grade
1st dan: 6 months from previous grade AND 4 years total training time
2nd dan: 3 years from previous grade
3rd dan: 4 years from previous grade
4th dan: 5 years from previous grade
5th dan: 6 years from ptrevious grade
6th dan: 7 years from previous grade
7th dan: 8 years from previous grade
8th dan: 9 years from previous grade
9th dan: 10 years from previous grade

[Neil Gendzwill]

I wonder where that impression that it's a not-inconsiderable acheivement comes from.Germany's an outlier. Most places, shodan starting as an adult is 3 years or less.

[Fred27]

I get the question "how long have you trained" more than any "whats yer rank"-type question from beginners or even non-member observers. Last time someone asked me about my rank it had been so long since I graded I almost didn't remember what grade I had.
We simply dont grade that often and almost never discuss grades unless a grading is near.

[b8amack]

I wonder where that impression that it's a not-inconsiderable acheivement comes from. At least over here in Germany, the formal requirements for 'adults' 14+ (minimal waiting times) are pretty aligned:
Kendo ('german' Style)
6. Kyu -- usually 3-6 month
5. Kyu -- 6 month
4. Kyu -- 6 month
3. Kyu -- 6 month
2. Kyu -- 6 month
1. Kyu -- 6 month - 30 month +
1. Dan -- 1 year
etc.


I'm not sure why you added the ~30 months for ikkyu on the kendo timeline, there. Are you saying after thirty + months German kenshi are guaranteed a shodan, regardless of testing? Because that is the only way that addition is relevant. Otherwise, the date at which one is allowed to test is the only date needed. Of course it takes longer for some people than others, but that would be true at all belts/dan/kyu/geup/poom/ranks-of-whatever-name. Someone might start kendo and then finally get around to grading six years later. Does that mean you should edit your timeline for 6 kyu to "3 ~ 72 months?" I don't think so. I know someone who was shodan for 8 years before testing for nidan. Should the timeline then read: "shodan 1 year - 8 years +" ? Of course not.

[Toecutter]

I'm not sure why you added the ~30 months for ikkyu on the kendo timeline, there. Are you saying after thirty + months German kenshi are guaranteed a shodan, regardless of testing? Because that is the only way that addition is relevant. Otherwise, the date at which one is allowed to test is the only date needed. Of course it takes longer for some people than others, but that would be true at all belts/dan/kyu/geup/poom/ranks-of-whatever-name. Someone might start kendo and then finally get around to grading six years later. Does that mean you should edit your timeline for 6 kyu to "3 ~ 72 months?" I don't think so. I know someone who was shodan for 8 years before testing for nidan. Should the timeline then read: "shodan 1 year - 8 years +" ? Of course not.
I think what he's trying to say is that's the shortest time line. In Germany from what I understand it’s mandatory to start at 6th or 4th kyu with mandatory waiting times of 6 months in between gradings, so the fastest you could reach shodan would be the time he gave.

[b8amack]

Again. If six months is the shortest time, then that's all he needs to say. Unless some districts have mandatory waiting periods at ikkyu for longer than 30 months.

[ender84567]

a better way would be to equate it to age as in japan, shodan/nidan is a highschool student, sandan/yondan is a college student, and godan and up is a graduate that kept up with practicing.

[Are2]

He probably meant it adds up to 30+ months from 6. kyu to first.

[b8amack]

Well, that's confusing, but that would make more sense.

[ReKru]

Germany's an outlier. Most places, shodan starting as an adult is 3 years or less.

Wasn't about the Kendo, but that all other arts are 3-4 years to Shodan - at least minimum time. That's not such a high level of mastery.
I'd think, while having more gradings and starting lower, there should be more options to grade (the arts being more mainstream), so the chance of missing out an entire semster might be equal? Is the fail rate at kyu grades so high in Judo or Karate (TKD similar requirements as far as I could find out)? Do they market their black belts better?


I'm not sure why you added the ~30 months for ikkyu on the kendo timeline, there. Are you saying after thirty + months German kenshi are guaranteed a shodan, regardless of testing?

No, that's minimum time over here. And I guess the pass-rate for shodan is equal, if not worse to international gradings.
Absolute minimum, no skipping grades, no 'oh, you're better, we'll give you a kyu or two more'. <30 month training and you're guaranteed to be below ikkyu. :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Wasn't about the Kendo, but that all other arts are 3-4 years to Shodan - at least minimum time. That's not such a high level of mastery.
Varies quite a bit locally. Judo is 8 years minimum, more like 10 realistically. Shotokan karate is at least 5. Kendo is minimum 3 months, as theoretically you could grade for ikkyu your first day and try shodan 3 months later. But typically it's grade ikkyu after 1 year, shodan after another year.

[ender84567]

Varies quite a bit locally.
How long does it take for a check to clear?

[atgm]

a better way would be to equate it to age as in japan, shodan/nidan is a highschool student, sandan/yondan is a college student, and godan and up is a graduate that kept up with practicing.

In my experience, shodan and nidan are junior high grades (14-15), then sandan is a high school grade, yondan is a college grade... and then godan is a "serious" student grade, since the jump from yondan to godan in Gunma is very difficult.

[b8amack]

Same, except shodan is pretty much a kids' grade.

[atgm]

I don't know about you, but I think of 14-year-olds as being kids. That's pretty much the earliest they're allowed to get it anyway.

[ArcticBlizzard]

I think there's a big difference when you compare the situation to europe for instance. Here in europe people often start kendo in their twenties, our dojo had some teens but we now only have people 20+ doing kendo. Of course there's also the issue of traininghours we can put in.

[b8amack]

I don't know about you, but I think of 14-year-olds as being kids. That's pretty much the earliest they're allowed to get it anyway.

Little kids, then. Elementary schoolers. 14 year olds are quite often 6 feet or more in height, these days. I think of them as teenagers, not kids.

[atgm]

Yeah, that's just not possible here due to regulations. There's a lower age limit on 1-dan. Is it different elsewhere?

[ender84567]

14-15 is typical highschool freshman in the usa, which is why i grouped shodan into highschool

[b8amack]

I think only here, from what I've read on this forum, and there's still a lower age limit, it's just a lot lower than 14. I'm still not sure whether the "kids' shodan" recipients need to take shodan again when they're of age to take the regular shodan test or not. Since it's a non-issue for me, I've never asked. I don't think so, but I guess anything is possible. I always figured it was just a way of grouping the gradings so that little guys weren't having to test with much taller partners. That's not reallly fair to either.

[ender84567]

I thought the lower age limit here was 13. It would be set by the national governing body. I dont know if there is a FIK standard and google certainly isint turning one up.

[cesarekim]

IIRC, you could grade up to kiddy 2 dan and then have to wait for 16 to grade for 3dan direct. I checked on the KKA site and the only kiddy dan certificate was for 1 dan so the 2 dan may have been done away with. In the old days, you could set up 1 and 2 dan tests inside the dojang, if you had enough senior instructors, so waiting times were a lot less structured.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Little kids, then. Elementary schoolers. 14 year olds are quite often 6 feet or more in height, these days. I think of them as teenagers, not kids.I think of anyone still in college as kids but then I'm prehistoric. I think the regulation age in Canada for shodan is 14.

[chidokan]

to answer the original question. I don't bother... I know how good people are by just watching one waza... If people ask me what I am, I just tell them to watch and let them work it out. And I don't care if they get it wrong either...:D If a casual enquiry by non-MA people I just say I have been doing it for a long time.
Youngsters are difficult...14 is an approximated age guide we have used in the UK, but should be used a guide only, as 'iaido maturity' seems to vary widely between individuals. Haruna sensei insisted my son went in early for his iai shodan and wanted him to do nidan when he was only 15, however UK rules prevented this. Note he had been doing iaido from age 8... so if an adult would qualify time wise... I would say in his defence that my son was quite sensible/mature for his age compared to many of his friends, who would not have been put in the same position! I think the best way to look at it is to say, "well, you will run out of grades by age 50, so no rush"!!!

[Kenshi]

Guys, as far as Japan is concerned the earliest you can get shodan is Junior High School 2nd year. There is no age specified as such, but it generally equates to around 14.

A very good student can get sandan in high school at around 17, but its relatively rare, relatively. One of my kohai got his 4dan at 20 (he started kendo at 13).

fwiw.

[Kim Taylor]

The FIK guidelines state 14 as the minimum age, the Canadian age and year guidelines are as per the FIK rules, you'll find them here: http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_gradinginfo.html

I used to avoid telling folks my rank, now I just tell them, it makes no difference to most people either way, too much rank and if they know a little about the martial arts they assume you're self-promoted, if they know nothing they're not impressed.

I'd suggest the most impressive rank out there would be about 4-5dan.

Kim.

[still learning]

I'd suggest the most impressive rank out there would be about 4-5dan.
Kim.

Interesting.........
That, given your current [Iaido] rank, you look 'backwards' to find an 'impressive rank'.

Why 4-5 dan? Why not Hachidan Hanshi?
You are not impressed by 8th Dans? [Ye Gods, I would not want you on my grading panel!]

Speaking from a lower platform [5th Dan] than that on which you find yourself..... I am incredibly respectful of [and impressed by] 'The Gods'.... but have to admit that there are some 7th Dan practitioners that really float my boat.........

[atgm]

I think he was speaking with respect to people who don't know martial arts. 4-5-dan would be the most realistic and impressive, whereas over that seems more like a McDojo or self-awarded rank.

[Kim Taylor]

I think he was speaking with respect to people who don't know martial arts. 4-5-dan would be the most realistic and impressive, whereas over that seems more like a McDojo or self-awarded rank.

Exactly so, for those within the same organization the ranks tend to be respected as what they are, but if I tell someone who isn't in the martial arts that I'm an iaido seven dan they tend to say "is that good?". Then I have to tell them that's a different question altogether.

Kim.