How often do you Shinpan

[durrell4]

I am interested how often the majority of our members have experience being a shinpan. I am lucky enough to get to shinpan about 3 to 4 times a year (the number of small tourneys in my area). When I pass yon-dan that number goes up to 7 or more per year. Based on some of the previous polls it would appear that we have a young group here. It also appears that the impression that shinpan are too subjective. In my experience being a shinpan is very hard and requires a tremendous amount of concentration. I am interested in others experience.

[David J]

I dont think we have a young group per se, more an inexperienced one (based on the polls). I'm 34 and in my first year of Kendo - most of the beginners at Hizen are at least in their mid twenties (I'm guessing). Given that many people come to Kendo from another art, the logical conclusion is that (outside Japan etc) people tend to start older. Unless you were meaning "young" in the sense of inexperience, in which case apologies for the waffle.....

<rei>

Dave

[durrell4]

Sorry, I ment inexperienced group. I am not implying that everyone young in age. I mean kendo age... if there is such a thing. for example I am 32, but in Kendo years I'm eight.

[alexpollijr]

So you got Yondan in eight years? That's a very good mark.

[Ian Russell]

I think sandan in eight years...

[GMason]

Hi,

Although there might be a large number of people who are young in their Kendo life....... This should not really stop you from being a shinpan (all be it in a controlled area).

I have been practicing for almost three years now (Nidan in October so fingers crossed). I have been lucky enough to act as shinpan a number times.

The BKA has decided that Shiai and refing will be a major part of all seminar's in Britian.

I found this to be a realy good Idea. The way they run it is that you have six ref's. Three are the inexperienced kendoka and the other three are experienced Kendoka, who follow the other three around telling them what to do and say.

This has seemed to work really well. I'm not sure what others from Britain think ? but personally this has been really good. Not only from the point of view of, getting to try it instead of just slagging the ref's off saying they missed my points, but you get to have a bit of a shiai fence.

[durrell4]

Sorry Alex, I am san-dan but I should have yondan in ten years.

Gareth I am interested in how you fit six shinpan in the court? Was this is a real shiai?

[Confound]

It can work, i've seen something similar done at tournaments here. A;though there was just ONE master shimpan. s/he sat at a desk, beside the corner of the shiai area (there were 4), and watched the shimpan. At the end of the match, the head shimpan would talk to the three who had officiated the match, like a master class on being a shimpan.

i only saw a very few instances where the teaching shimpan stepped in and stopped the match over a call with which s/he disagreed. However, it was a student tournament, so i saw a great deal of whinging. teachers would approach the teaching shimpan every so often and whine about a call, or about the lack of one. there was very little respect for the shimpan who were perceived as 'fake shimpan' by some of the teachers. it bothered me a little.

then again, at this tournament, many of the 'teachers' were school teachers, some of whom were not kendouka. thus i suspect that some of them lacked a bit of kendou ettiquette.

c

[Vagabond]

One sempai told me once that in Japan some shinpan don't have to see the strikes, but just to hear the sound to judge if it was or not a valid point.
Is that true, or is that common in Japan and in other countries?

Marcelo

[Kuri]

I don't know about not seeing the strike, but there is a distinct sound when a strike is executed correctly on the men and kote. They obviously use this as a reference in judging whether or not the technique hit the target. But that's only one aspect of a valid cut. Ki-ken-tai no iichi (Energy-sword/technique-body in unison) is required for yuko-datotsu.

[John W]

I personally have only been shinpan once and the match was observed by highly ranked kendoka. The whole point of the exercise was give beginner kendoists an insight into the tough job of of being a shinpan.
It really was an eye opener for me because prior to that exercise I was in a match where a kote was awarded to my opponent when it clearly hit my tsuba. I was just about to protest with a mouthful of abuse when I decided just to shut up and get on with the match (which I lost by the way:D ).
Then after doing the shinpan exercise it made it clear to me that there should be a huge amount of respect paid to shinpan. Keeping up with the speed of some kendoka let alone scoring the points at the same time- what a job! I think the shinpan have a special quality were they can somehow keep up with the match but at the same time be detached from all the hype so that they can try to award points when it happens in a split second. So all you shinpan out there I salute you!:D

[GMason]

I had drawn a little diagram but, it was far too much hassle to put it on the web so I'll just try and describe it for you.

The three trainee Ref's stand in the normal place. Then three experienced Ref's stand behind them and help them move about the square, in an ordally fashion and also help them with the flag's and commands. But the decission's are left up to the three guys who are refing.

I get the impression that I didn't explain it properly last time. But this is a very informal freindly training shiai. There is nothing riding on it, and it is all very friendly. It usually ends up with people laughing and joking afterwards about the pionts that where missed and also the pionts that they got when they shouldn't.

After trying Refing a few times myself it makes me realise how difficult it is, I think it was something my sensai said about the Ref's have to be high grade so that they can anticipate when the Kendoka is going to cut so that they almost know before the Kendoka's do when something is going to happen.

I have actually seen this when you watch the ref's and you can sometimes see them participating in the match they feel the pressure build and are alomost willing the kendoka to cut(I don't know if I have explained that very well. But I know what I me :D )

[ben]

I'm now expected to shimpan at every shiai I attend, even if I am competing. I wish this wasn't the case but until there are more people to chose from...

Shimpan is a very hard job, like working in the payroll office of a large company. People only notice what you do when you make a mistake. No-one comes up and says "well done. That match was beautifully judged." They usually go and congratulate the competitors, even though the quality of a match rests as much with the shimpan as the kendoka.

Often after judging I feel like I missed certain decisions, but you can't have the time back. Fortunately most people are sportsmanlike when it comes down to it. The thing I remind myself of is that when one is a shimpan, there are only correct decisions.

IOW, even when a shimpan is wrong, s/he's right.

:)
b

[David J]

Gareth - did you see the BKA newsletter? Looks like this is becoming a bigger issue....

(For the rest of the world - the British Kendo Association is trying to incorporate refereeing for all higher grades (3rd and above) as part of the requirements for grading. This down to the chronic shortage of active referees in Britain...)

<rei>

Dave

[AlexM]

I have only been shinpan once or twice and only within my own dojo (hope that still counts). Despite the fact that I've only been practicing kendo for a year (about three practices a week) I think it is important to get this kind of experience. In fact, our sensei has been encouraging dojo members to try refereeing internal matches and to not hesitate to stop the match when something is less than clear to those of us with little experience. It's really a learning experience for all those involved.
Two important points seem to be:
1) Watch the fight as if you "are" the opposing fighters and try to sense the flow of a match (helps in atticipating what will happen and not get caught "sleeping").
2) If you make a call be ready to justify your decision because it will be questionned (not right away but later on).

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by AlexM

[snippage]
Two important points seem to be:
1) Watch the fight as if you "are" the opposing fighters and try to sense the flow of a match (helps in atticipating what will happen and not get caught "sleeping").
2) If you make a call be ready to justify your decision because it will be questionned (not right away but later on).


Hmm, not sure that I agree with these. Can you explain what you mean by 'as if you are the opposing fighters' ? When judging, I try to do the 'looking at the far mountain' thing - there are a lot of things to take into account -
You are not just a single judge that happens to be in the company of another two. You need to work as a team in controlling the match. Besides looking for valid cuts, you must also be aware of your position in relation to the other shinpan, your position in relation to the competitors as well as watching for things such as safety hazards and foul play. I think it's important to remain as detatched as possible from the play so that you are free to make decisions instantly.

As for your second point, unless you are at a venue that is specifically teaching you how to shinpan, imho, you do not need to justify your decision to anyone. ever. If they disagree with the decision you made, too bad. You were the shinpan, they were not. It's that simple. People make mistakes, even at the highest level, however the nature of kendo shiai means that once a decision is made, it is final, right or wrong. That is where it should be left.
I do not apologise for 'mistakes' that I make when judging, nor have I ever been asked to justify them. I have also been on the receiving end of some harsh decisions, I'm sure everyone has. Nonetheless, unless you have proof that a judge is biased against you, you have to let it go.
My other comment on judging is - respect your own judgement. The thing I hate more than anything when judging, is someone that puts his flag up because one of the other judges do. Don't be a follower - it shows and no one respects it.

just my $0.02 worth.

[AlexM]

To clarify:

I have to say that I (politely) disagree with your philosophy of remaining somewhat distant from the competition. I think being able to watch and anticipate what might come next can certainly help in making the right call. There is a rythm and momentum to a shiai, the shimpan's best bet to make the right call is to be able to follow that rythm. Understanding how the opponents are fighting each other and what each one is trying to do seems important to judging. It's almost like fighting two fights at once. This all sounds very imprecise but I have difficulty expressing this kind of a concept. Besides, if I'm wrong then I've got plenty of time to change my mind (not bloody likely though).

As to having to back up a refereeing decision I have to say that your attitude disapoints me. People DO question desicions and answering them with silence seems ridiculous to me. After all, it's difficult to learn if you can't know what you did wrong.

I'm not implying that shinpan should become a new breed of spineless jellyfish (do any jellyfish actually have spines?). A decision is a decision end of story but one must be willing to back up a desicion with somekind of justification (e.g. "your kote was good but lacked zanshin" or "your kote was good but the opponent hit men at the same time"). I have very little tournament experience but I can already notice that flags don't all go up at the same time: One flag goes up only to be followed by the other two for no good reason (lot's of blow calls this way). You are absolutely right that shinpan should stick to their impressions of what happened and not follow along because they were "sleeping" during the match (happens more often than one might think according to my sensei).

Of course, one of the beautiful things about kendo is it's amateur nature and the fact that a blown call really isn't the end if the world for those involved (could you imagine the kind of controversies that would take place if this were an olympic sport?).

[kendokamax]

hmm alex

i think trying to anticipate is not the best idea, reason is if there is two oponents and there is one you know better than the other one, you know his kendo and the way he is going to react in certain situation, as for the other kendoka you don't really know what he can do. If you try too much to anticipate and being into the action, at that time you can be surprised by a hit of the person you didn't know or couldn't anticipate, thus you won't give a point.


But i'm a really bad shinpan and I don't really know what the hell i'm talking about.

[Vagabond]

I never "shinpaned", so I have a question: For how long were you guys praticing kendo when you were shipan for the first time?

[kendokamax]

Normaly I think people have to be at least 3rd dan to judge in tournament? not sure.

I just did shinpan a couple of time for shiai in our dojo during practice. Nothing serious, just to make us realise it isn't that easy!!

been doing kendo for 2 years

[AlexM]

Only been doing kendo for about a year. But this was internal to the dojo, no big deal really and it was all in good fun. For the record I have obviously never shinpaned in anything close to a tournament (crowd laughs in amusement).
You should try it out for yourself: it's loads of fun to hand out hansoku for no apparent reason or suddenly go blind when there's an ippon (especially to those dojo mates who have earned it!). Also helps to appreciate how tough refereeing is (plus it looks like you're doing some kind of a flag dance when you're unsure).

[ben]

I agree with k'max. Too much anticipation can lead you to miss the unexpected cut. OTOH too little engagement can mean that you're not exerting enough authority over the shiai (this especially when you're chushin).

I've always marvelled at how easy it is to see the cut when in the audience (or even on the sidelines waiting to rotate on as a shimpan), and how hard as soon as you step into the shiaijo. Nerves obviously make you a little blinder than normal.

b

[kendokamax]

that's so true eh?

so easy to see the points when you are waiting. on the sideline

but i think the reason that you see the points really well when you are just looking is that you can wander your attention to something else, so when you actually see the match you are more relax,,,,,and no decision to take. You can always take a break when looking at a match....but not when shinpan? (I guess!)

but that's a bit obvious :P

[kendokamax]

oh ya !

I love giving hansoku !!

HANSOKU IKKAI! with pointing with the finger....

so cool

[ben]

My favourite was (now no longer used):
"Kousei o gaisuru koi - chui!" (Warning for unfair play).

b

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by AlexM
I have to say that I (politely) disagree with your philosophy of remaining somewhat distant from the competition. I think being able to watch and anticipate what might come next can certainly help in making the right call.

The others have pretty much said what I was going to say. Essentially the best way to get yourself into trouble is trying to read ahead. Perhaps the higher dan grades might be able to, but I would suggest that even they would refrain from this whilst judging. I have been told by a number of wizened old men that detachment can help you in a number of ways including:
impartiality and rational decision-making.

By detachment I mean remaining focused on the events of the shiai whilst having no emotional investment.

[snippage]



Understanding how the opponents are fighting each other and what each one is trying to do seems important to judging.


I beg to differ.
The only things you need concern yourself with are wether or not they make a valid cut, whether or not an infringement occurs and whether or not there is a safety issue (yes a little potted, I know, but you can fit most judging decisions into one of these three areas).
What the players do or do not do has no bearing whatsoever outside of this framework.




As to having to back up a refereeing decision I have to say that your attitude disapoints me. People DO question desicions and answering them with silence seems ridiculous to me. After all, it's difficult to learn if you can't know what you did wrong.


Forgive me if I dont go running for the razor blades.

Asking for an explanation and demanding justification are two entirely different animals. That being said, if someone asks for an explanation regarding a judging decision, you may choose to give them one or not, but to have to keep in the back of your mind a justification for every shiai decision that you make, just in case some whiner gets his/her panties in a bunch is sheer lunacy (imnsho)





I'm not implying that shinpan should become a new breed of spineless jellyfish (do any jellyfish actually have spines?).


no.
www.aqua.org/animals/species/jellies.html



A decision is a decision end of story but one must be willing to back up a desicion with somekind of justification (e.g. "your kote was good but lacked zanshin" or "your kote was good but the opponent hit men at the same time").


Respectfully, that is bullshit, for reasons that I have stated above.
Not only that, but (depending on the way the question/whinge is phrased), it can be seen as being highly rude for a competitor to question the decision of a shinpan. Even if it is clearly a mistake on the shinpan's part.
Just an aside on this, judges of sumo basho traditionally carry a tanto tucked into their kimono so that they may commit seppuku should they commit a judging error. I believe this is more a statement on the self-governining nature of shinpan than it is on a handy method of eliminating bad judging.




Of course, one of the beautiful things about kendo is it's amateur nature and the fact that a blown call really isn't the end if the world for those involved (could you imagine the kind of controversies that would take place if this were an olympic sport?).

The year before last, in the zen nihon kendo taikai, Miyazaki won with a men cut that was blocked. His aite (whose name escapes me - which is bad because he is also quite famous), actually cut a very impressive kaeshi do after blocking the men, however the point was awarded to Miyazaki.
The point was replayed two or three times on tv, and during that time, not one of the commentators said a word. They did not comment on the decision of the judge, nor on the strike itself.
That event encapsulates more or less everything that I have said above if you have a think about it.
As for kendo being an olympic sport, those kind of controversies (among other things) are part of the reason it is not. No one likes a sore loser.

[kendokamax]

What Alex means when he says you have to back up your decision and be ready to always give a justification of it is because there must have been a reason why there was a point or not!


If you are ready to explain yourself why you would give such a point then that means you reallly saw it and you know what you are doing. Of course no kenshi will ask you to make justification because you should always trust shinpan judgement, also because error made by shinpan are part of the whole and we have to accept it. But it doesn't mean that the shinpan should not think about what point they should give or not! There should always be a justification in their head of why they would give or not the point. No one will ask why but they should ask themselve why they gave or not a point, because it is rude.. But Shinpan don't have a direct connection to god, they are human and have a judgement, if they can't elaborate their judgement (to themselves or to others) then they are just jellyfish.

happy kendo!

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by kendokamax
[B]What Alex means when he says you have to back up your decision and be ready to always give a justification of it is because there must have been a reason why there was a point or not!


perhaps, though having a reason and having a justification are not the same things. It's not merely a matter of semantics. If someone asks me the reasoning behind a particular decision and I am able to recall I am more inclined to answer that for instance if some whining crybaby came up to me and said
'why didn't you score that kote 5 matches ago'. I would feel quite justified in telling them to fuck off. I probably wouldn't, but I might strongly suggest intercourse and travel.

While I'm continuing my tirade, I wanted to make a clarification.
re what I believe a shinpan should/should not be concentrating on - as far as watching the competitors go, one should use one's own experience and should know what their actions might lead to, however, trying to predict what one or the other will do is just a no no.



[snippage]
But it doesn't mean that the shinpan should not think about what point they should give or not!


You're misrepresenting what I was saying.
I'm not saying don't think about it, I am saying that once a decision has been made, that is the end of it, whether it was a good decision or not.




There should always be a justification in their head of why they would give or not the point.


Again, semantics. Reason, yes - during a shiai at the time of the decision. Justification - not at any time. ever.
You appear to be talking about the reasoning process that goes into making a decision. I am talking about situations after the event where ones judgement is brought into question.

[AlexM]

Max my friend thanks for your help.
You guys are taking me way to seriously (no one takes me seriously, and certainly not about something like kendo).
I've already explained what I ment (or tried to mean) in previous posts about following the "flow" of a match (I should have kept it to that vague notion).
The justification part of my post actually comes from my sensei because of a decision I made during a shiai. I didn't give a point on kote because I felt the opponent was hitting men at the same time: more ai-uchi than anything else in my opinion (turned out I should have because the men hit was slighlty late and because it was purely defesive and not made with the intention of getting an ippon). Sensei told me that my decision was valid (although he also indicated it was wrong in no uncertain terms) but that I would have to back it up (with what I said about the men and kote being ai-uchi). Telling people to "fuck off" seems rude and VERY arrogant. If I'm officialy shinpaning several years down the road I would NEVER treat people this way simply because I happen to be a shinpan (Could you imagine telling someone like Taro Ariga to accept the decision without question...that dude has clout, plus he's gigantic). There is a limit to the respect of rank and position. A decision is a decision but nothing stops us from having a reasoning behind the decision. Of course I don't really have to justify what I meant now do I (hé hé).
This is the last I'll say on this subject that was spawed from one stinking post.

Happy kendo!

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by AlexM
Sensei told me that my decision was valid (although he also indicated it was wrong in no uncertain terms) but that I would have to back it up (with what I said about the men and kote being ai-uchi).


Which falls in line with what I was saying about a situation where judging is being taught et al.



Telling people to "fuck off" seems rude and VERY arrogant. If I'm officialy shinpaning several years down the road I would NEVER treat people this way simply because I happen to be a shinpan
[quote]


Read a little more carefully, I'm not advocating this line of action, I'm just vehemently against whiners.


Wait - is this a five-minute argument or the full half-hour?. . .

[quote]
(Could you imagine telling someone like Taro Ariga to accept the decision without question...that dude has clout, plus he's gigantic).



Yes. Absolutely. I could care less who it is. I don't have this god-like awe thing about exceptional kendoka or anyone else for that matter. There are people who's kendo I drool over, but that's something else entirely.




There is a limit to the respect of rank and position. A decision is a decision but nothing stops us from having a reasoning behind the decision. Of course I don't really have to justify what I meant now do I (hêÂhêË.


*sigh*
I can almost hear the rush of air as my last post passes in its entirety over your cranium. Did you absorb at all what I was saying about the difference between reason and justification?
Have another go. Maybe osmosis will do its thing if nothing else.



This is the last I'll say on this subject that was spawed from one stinking post.

Happy kendo!


Your one stinking post, as I recall it, was opening itself up to responses from a public forum (funnily enough). You may not like what gets let out of Pandora's box, but hey it's out there. Of course there are going to be differences of opinion and sometimes the best you can do is agree to disagree.
Personally I quite enjoy a good argument, but you have to be willing to consider the other point of view, otherwise it's just the monty python argument sketch inclusive of being hit on the head lessons.
(what a stupid concept). ahem.

Happy kendo to you, sir.