What's the reasoning for segregating women's and men's indivudals/teams at NYC Shiai?

[MartialArtsGirl]

I just got a letter (as did my other dojo mates) that the NYC Brooklyn Shiai will be segregated by male and females. There will be all men's teams and all females teams (three women per team). Also women cannot play in the mens individuals (and mens not in the females.)

I am just wondering what the reasoning was behind this, if anyone knows?

Thanks

[stealth_monkey]

While I understand that kendo is 90% technique, I'd say two reasons. Firstly, kendo being a traditional japanese art, there'd more than likely be some inherent gender bias in the governing authority. Secondly, in most competitive sports you have weight divisions and gender splits because at the end of the day, all things being equal the bigger stronger person wins. This would be minimised in Kendo given that strength doesn't directly affect the outcome of a match, but a person who is bigger than their opponent will more than likely have a significant reach advantage and a person who is stronger than the other would strike faster and with more endurance than the other.

Though this does bring up a good question- If women are separated because of physical reasons, why aren't men separated into weight divisions?

[Josh Reyer]

Probably an attempt to increase female participation.

[b8amack]

Or a recognition that there are enough women kendo players in that area to support a women's division. Or a desire for more kendo, perhaps.

[krys]

the XYZ Shiai will be segregated by male and females.[...] Also women cannot play in the mens individuals (and mens not in the females.)
The gender matter was being explained to you by many people in threads started by YOU in the past. Forgot again? Anyway the reasoning does not change.

[Kaa]

Congratulations! This is show time for you - only women in your class? That'll be an easy walkaway.



yes - that was irony... ;-)

[rfoxmich]

Because they are running the shiai so they get to make the rules ;-)


I just got a letter (as did my other dojo mates) that the NYC Brooklyn Shiai will be segregated by male and females. There will be all men's teams and all females teams (three women per team). Also women cannot play in the mens individuals (and mens not in the females.)

I am just wondering what the reasoning was behind this, if anyone knows?

Thanks

[MartialArtsGirl]

Well, I have been thinking about it a lot. Maybe it's ok as long as it wasn't done out of mysigony or prejudice. (Some people think it might be...) I don't know, maybe it will work out and I should just give it a chance. I'm not too thrilled about it though, but how can I say anything until I give it a chance? It makes me sad, though, to know that I won't be able to play with guys, or be on guys teams.

[krys]

Warning: the text below is for MAG-eyes only. It is what she really wish to find here.

I will be blunt.

The reasoning for segregating women's and men's tournaments at NYC shiai: women are simply the lesser beings.

To make a good kendoist you need both body and mind to be of good quality. However women's are weak and prone to failure.
It follows that women's kendo level is so much lower and they stand no chance against males at any competition.
That is why in almost all sports women folks is separated (for their own good and to save on tissues).
We all wish to see nice and proper kendo but any woman taking a part in men's competiton would lower the level.

One would wonder why allow them compete at all if they can not make it any good?
The only reason is men are generous beings and like to please their pets (like giving a bone to a dog).
Besides even as outcome of women's tournaments is insignificant, it's so much quiet when they do not complain.

[skilled]

Come on , we are all tired of your feminist threads..

And the worst part is that no one knows who you are..


+ neg rep xD

[ArcticBlizzard]

In most cases men and woman are equal, but let's be honest in sports they nearly never are.
I should rephrase that
Although they put the same amount of effort the results between men and woman cannot be compared.
When you look at speedskating 1500 meters for example
Man: 1.41.04
Woman: 1.54.02
So you want them to compete on equal grounds? Male and Females in the same league on a professional level? Probably no woman would ever win! (Well curling perhaps ;) )

Instead of whining about the whole female male stuff you should be happy that enough woman are around in Kendo so you can have your own league.
Seriously why do you always have to make a fuss about male vs female? Get over it!!!

[b8amack]

Maybe it's ok as long as it wasn't done out of mysigony or prejudice. (Some people think it might be...)

How many of these people share your first and last name?

[Inner_Silence]

here we go again...
I think you are the nail that stands out.

[Big One]

That is so unfair. Call congress, call general attorney, and call anyone you can. Women should be able to compete with men. If they can never win anything, so be it.

[Moose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39qdhbkTko4

[michaelm]

15 pages of responses from the last time you asked:
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/21834-Women-and-Shiai

[ratdeau]

In Switzerland we have both, Open (Males + Females) and Women (only).

[Sophie]

I can understand your feelings though~
There are no women at all at my dojo, so I wouldn't be able to join a team. (unless I'd join another dojo's team....)
Well, I'm not even thinking about participating right now though. Eheheh, Need more skills plz.

[bellatrix]

I have two responses to this thread.
First, I'm a bit disappointed in all the anti-feminist sentiment around. Presumably we're all here because we like kendo, not because we're in some giant war of the sexes.

That said, I am both appreciative and skeptical of having women's and men's divisions (This mostly applies to individuals, as the dynamic is slightly different for teams). I appreciate it because it gives women a space in which to compete, and not feel out of place due to being outnumbered or whatever. I'm skeptical because at my first tournament (which was actually the Brooklyn one mentioned here, woo aeuskf) I competed in both the women's and the kyu section, as I was unranked but wanted experience. In my first match in the women's section, I was up against a 3rd dan, and she wiped the floor with me. I preferred competing in the kyu division, because I went up against someone who was closer to my skill level. I'm not saying that all accomplished kendoka should only be matched up against someone of their rank, but rather that at the lower levels, competing with people who will not pummel you just by looking at you can actually make you learn more, and gain confidence in yourself. Also, I assume dan-ranked kendoka would prefer to go up against other dans (Only speculation though. Not there yet.)
I'm slightly worried that there may not be enough women to have a dan/kyu division in addition to the woman/man one. I sincerely hope that there are, 'cause that would be a great thing.

Personally, I would much prefer a division based on rank to one based on sex. If both, then I'm fine with that.

(sorry if that was long)

[b8amack]

Even the yudan/mudan divisions are a luxury, that I think people are taking for granted. One of my dojomate's first tournaments, he was 5th or 4th kyu, and his first (and last) match was against a sandan, because that's how it is. And we had more than enough competitors for both divisions. That said, I know a ni-dan woman who lost to a mudansha in the women's division, because her opponent was a tournament veteran, and she herself was inexperienced.

[bellatrix]

I partly agree with you, but my point is that if organizations want to divide matches into divisions, then I'd rather see one based on skill level than sex.

*ETA*: I'm also pretty tired so I might not be making sense and contradicting myself a bit. Anyway, I'll go sleep (blame midterms and DST for my nocturnal schedule) and think about this some more.

[b8amack]

Also, what anti-feminism?

[MikeW]

Different federations/sub-regions do it differently. In the SEUSKF we typically have teams, ranked divisions (i.e. mudansha, shodan-nidan, sandan and above), sometimes a youth division (with no gender exclusions for any of the above). We also do have a womens individuals division and I see it basically in a similar vein as the seniors division ( which we also use, no gender exclusions there either). From what I have heard from people is that they like having the womens division, but since our system is a bit different and we don't have separate teams divisions based on gender its not the same as in the question posed originally by MAG. And yes, in the open womens division you can have kyu ranks going against a 5dan (highest female ranked in our region I believe) but thats no different than it is for me if I enter the seniors division where a person that is old enough can enter regardless of rank so you can have a person that is unranked going against someone like Maeda sensei (nanadan). Just luck of the draw.

[bellatrix]

Also, what anti-feminism?

Reading it now, I think it was very sarcastic. At least I hope so. For all the people who say they're tired of sex/gender issues---it is the women's forum.

[ahmed61086]

Hey Martial Arts girl,

What about when women have their own division. Isn't that unfair. Shouldn't men be allowed to join womens only tournaments if they so chose?

I mean, we cannot have a double standard. If you want things to be equal, they have to be equal for everyone.

The way I see it. If men have their own division, and women have their own division, thats just the way it is. Why is most tournaments have a womens shiai and then a mixed shiai, but not a Mens only shiai? Should women be allowed to join the mens competition(mixed competition are usualy comprised mostly of men) but the men are not allowed to join the womens? This is usually the way it works.

Rather, we see in most tournaments, the women have their own division, and the the women are also allowed to join in their respective rank division as well. Is this not sexist? This seems to be a double standard in favor of the women, not the men.

If we were to be totally equal and "fair", there would be no mens or womens divion, just one division with both men and women. But its the truth when we say, if that were the case, you would rarely see a women be awarded a first place trophy. This is why their are womens only division and mens only division. Its pure biology.

[turboyoshi]

What about when women have their own division. Isn't that unfair. Shouldn't men be allowed to join womens only tournaments if they so chose?

No. Because there is a purpose to having a division that excludes men that is not served by having a division that excludes women. It's similar to affirmative action for minorities. Now you can argue whether that purpose is actually being served but that's really a different topic.



[...]
Its pure biology.

And possibly sociology. There are biological differences that give a male an advantage over a female in any physical activity and you'd have to be delusional to argue that fact. There are also psychological differences which may be harder to quantify but no less significant. Thus, having a women's only division might help to address those issues as well as the physical ones. I think if people find something wrong with that, the real problem may be a personal issue they should be dealing with privately rather than ruining the fun for everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with having a division exclusive to women. No one should have to feel insulted by that and no one is certainly losing out on any opportunity by it.

[ahmed61086]

No. Because there is a purpose to having a division that excludes men that is not served by having a division that excludes women. It's similar to affirmative action for minorities. Now you can argue whether that purpose is actually being served but that's really a different topic.



And possibly sociology. There are biological differences that give a male an advantage over a female in any physical activity and you'd have to be delusional to argue that fact. There are also psychological differences which may be harder to quantify but no less significant. Thus, having a women's only division might help to address those issues as well as the physical ones. I think if people find something wrong with that, the real problem may be a personal issue they should be dealing with privately rather than ruining the fun for everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with having a division exclusive to women. No one should have to feel insulted by that and no one is certainly losing out on any opportunity by it.


That question you quoted of me was a rhetorical question. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was showing the double standard of having womens only tournaments but not having mens only tournements in a lot of shiai.

And since this tournament in NYC is having a mens only shiai, and a womens only shiai, I find it ironic that anyone would find this decision to be somehow biased or sexist.

No where did I mention that I think women should not have a shiai for themselves, rather I encouraged it. I dont think you understood my post. The purpose of my post was to point out the illogical reasoning by the person starting the thread. I am all for womens only tournaments. And I personally dont mind mixed tournaments either. I also dont mind Mens only shiais. I like it all actually.

[b8amack]

No. Because there is a purpose to having a division that excludes men that is not served by having a division that excludes women. It's similar to affirmative action for minorities. Now you can argue whether that purpose is actually being served but that's really a different topic.

Affirmative action is not the reason for mens and womens divisions, I think. I'm curious how you came to that conclusion. And furthermore, having an open division and a women's only division would negate any argument that it was done for that reason.

I think it would be great if there was a women's only division, a men's only division, and a mixed division, but as (I think it was Neil) said in the first thread, that'd simply be too much demanded of the time constraints of a kendo tournament, especially if individuals were allowed to enter both the men's or women's and the open division.

I guess what bothers me about MAG's posts in this regard is how she so casually throws the word misogyny out there. That's a pretty serious accusation, especially since she started a whole other thread with people explaining that hatred of women was very much NOT the reason for having mens and womens divisions in kendo (although there was one poster in there who seemed to have issues with women in general, he was definitely in the minority).

[rfoxmich]

I'm starting to smell dead horse.

[GothMelancolia]

Just related with this

Consider this situation (because I’m bored and I really don’t want to work today)

You have one really small ladies practitioner’s population (let’s say 10-20 girls)
Most of them are low ranks (or no rank) and with little kendo/contest experience.
Regarding men the situation is different you have a large number of men practitioners the highest rank being something like godan or rokudan (this is a theoretical situation)
You are the last year’s winner of the lady’s individual contest….you very skilled and train hard every year and have lots of high ranks to practice with. You know what the level of training the other girls have and there is a 90 % chance of wining the contest this year as well (because the other girls don’t have enough experience in contest, they don’t usually practice with other girls, they don’t have high ranked people to practice with, they don’t train as hard as you, doesn’t matter)
You have the opportunity of competing in men’s division OR lady’s division (Can’t be in both you have to choose).
If you compete in men’s division you’ll get to meet some of the best players in your country. If you’ll participate in lady’s division you’ll most probably win all the matches and compete against beginners.

What will you chose and why?

Consider in the same situation you are the organizer for this contest…will you allow girls to participate in men’s division or make separate divisions.

Why?

I would really like to hear the opinions of both boys and girls, just imagine yourself in this situation

[Neil Gendzwill]

Gothmelancolia, we beat this to death in the other thread but those sorts of issues are why I allow women to compete in two divisions in the tournament I run. We don't have enough women to run ranked women's divisions, so there's a wide range of competitors. First round this year we had national team members playing people who were in their first ever shiai. So the women can play people closer to their level in the open divisions, but then they run into a size/strength/speed differential. Hopefully next year we can run two women's divisions - we were almost there this year IIRC we had 12 total.

[turboyoshi]

That question you quoted of me was a rhetorical question. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was showing the double standard of having womens only tournaments but not having mens only tournements in a lot of shiai.

I understand that you did not mean the question seriously, however, it was asked and, I think, merited an answer because the issue is more complex than saying there's a double standard. I don't actually think it's a double standard at all but merely a realistic acceptance of the different physical capabilities. I think of a double standard as implying there's an emotional/moral judgement involved and I don't see that being the issue here.



No where did I mention that I think women should not have a shiai for themselves, rather I encouraged it. I dont think you understood my post. The purpose of my post was to point out the illogical reasoning by the person starting the thread.

Actually I did understand that. I wasn't attacking you or even disputing your conclusions, but rather, expanding on them a bit for MAG's benefit.


Affirmative action is not the reason for mens and womens divisions, I think. I'm curious how you came to that conclusion. And furthermore, having an open division and a women's only division would negate any argument that it was done for that reason.

I said "similar to" in that a separate women's shiai is designed to provide more opportunity for a minority class. I hated to use that phrase because I thought it might be too controversial and the analogy isn't as precise as I would have liked but it was the best thing I could think of.



I guess what bothers me about MAG's posts in this regard is how she so casually throws the word misogyny out there.
I do think MAG is possibly focused too much on gender issues for whatever reasons and that most of us see this as a non issue. I'm reminded of the adage, when you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

[GothMelancolia]

Gothmelancolia, we beat this to death in the other thread but those sorts of issues are why I allow women to compete in two divisions in the tournament I run. We don't have enough women to run ranked women's divisions, so there's a wide range of competitors.
actually I didn't thought about this situation


First round this year we had national team members playing people who were in their first ever shiai. So the women can play people closer to their level in the open divisions, but then they run into a size/strength/speed differential. Hopefully next year we can run two women's divisions - we were almost there this year IIRC we had 12 total.
I wasn't asking because I think separating men from women is unfair....it's your tournament you have the right to decide...my point was that with such a small number of competitors you have to have women division as well so the n00bs can go against people with more experience (specially if someone doesn't have the opportunity of practising with other girls). But you are right besides the girls vs boys issue there is the the level of competitors issue as well. I guess the answer would be getting more girls to practice and compete...in a perfect world
Thank you
...............and I've missed the forum during these days :cry:..............

[ender84567]

Goth, they arent really seperate, there is just a womens division on top of the normal tournament, i dont see how its unfair to let women participate in an extra division? You hypothesis on the previous page also assumes a closed system, over here at least there is always migration and some hotshot sandan/yondan ringer will show up out of nowhere and wipe the floor with the normal godan/rokudan winners, male or female.

[Bokushingu]

a few years back, I watched a young Lady win 3 men's shodan-Nidan division without loosing a single point...and the guys weren't taking it easy on her. It put a thought in my head: anyone can win a taikai no matter the gender.

as for affirmative action, two states have already done away with it, and I hope more will follow until it isn't in the US at all -- the reason...it is an outdated solution. I can't see how it is a suitable comparison to the current tournament's situations.

In my opinion i don't think there is a problem the way it is setup & I have never seen anyone, neither male or female, complain.

[silvana]

wouldn't it make more sense to split in skill groups for exemple one special for people with no competition experience and some others above?

i think gender seperated divisions are sort of a "cookie" for women - sort of "you can compete against other women so it's more equal in hight weight and strength and you can concentrate on technical things" thing to get women into shiais more and the other thing is in my opinion culture-based

[Neil Gendzwill]

wouldn't it make more sense to split in skill groups for exemple one special for people with no competition experience and some others above?That's the point of dividing by rank. Some competitions do it by age. Some by age and rank. Dividing by "competition experience" is kind of a nebulous thing.

i think gender seperated divisions are sort of a "cookie" for women - sort of "you can compete against other women so it's more equal in hight weight and strength and you can concentrate on technical things" thing to get women into shiais more and the other thing is in my opinion culture-basedI don't understand the "cookie" reference. Women are disadvantaged physically, so they compete separately except in places where there aren't many women, in which case compromises are made to make a better tournament experience for them.

[Inner_Silence]

There is nothing wrong with having a division exclusive to women. No one should have to feel insulted by that and no one is certainly losing out on any opportunity by it.

so is a division exclusively for men. everything else is positive discrimination.

[Inner_Silence]

I guess what bothers me about MAG's posts in this regard is how she so casually throws the word misogyny out there. That's a pretty serious accusation, especially since she started a whole other thread with people explaining that hatred of women was very much NOT the reason for having mens and womens divisions in kendo (although there was one poster in there who seemed to have issues with women in general, he was definitely in the minority).

even if it sounds weird, I think that MAG is the one with misogyny issues, pretty similar with the people that are noticing and making fun of everyone elses mistakes just to cover their own insecurities. that and a hell a lot of ego. anyway, she is the nail that stands out, I hope that people would notice that in her dojo.

[Big One]

There is the different between a nail that stands out a a person doesn't know shit but open the mouth a lot. Instead of listening and learning, talking is the way. She offers opinion so much that none of them is valuable and then saying sorry at the end of each one.

[jjcruiser]

Wow, kinda harsh guys. I think she just wanted to have this conversation (yes, again) and "show" people that she's not intimidated to fight in men's divisions. What's the big deal? I think at least one person on here knows who she is in real life; so I suppose if this is an issue in her home dojo it's already been addressed.

[Shinsengumi77]

Wow, kinda harsh guys. I think she just wanted to have this conversation (yes, again) and "show" people that she's not intimidated to fight in men's divisions. What's the big deal?

I'm not sure if it's considered re-opening a closed issue, since this has been talked to death before...

But if this is what she's trying to say, couldn't she have started this with "I wish I could fight the guys in the taikai..." or "damn, it sucks that I can't compete in the men's division..." or etc, instead of saying "Why can't women do this..." and adding the sexist/ misogynist accusations (at this point I'm surprised no one has accused MAG of misandry in retaliation j/k). If you have a problem with something, that's fine, and it's also fine to bring your concern to light...but making accusations (implied or otherwise) is 100% of the time the wrong way to go about it.

[b8amack]

She's also stopped posting to this thread, so I'm going to assume it's a dead issue?

[MartialArtsGirl]

She's also stopped posting to this thread, so I'm going to assume it's a dead issue?

But I've read it all.

Wow, incredible comments. Yes, this time I will hold my tongue, because I think that anything I say will just ...yeah. And I don't feel like getting into any more...squabbles.

So I'm done.

[Kris]

Did it never occur to ask the organisers of the tournament why they have separate divisions, I'm almost certain they would have an answer to your question and I bet you have their address and telephone number handy. Put it in a letter, fax it.....pigeon it to them if needs be, it stands to reason that the best place to get the answer is from the people responsible :D

[Inner_Silence]

But I've read it all.

Wow, incredible comments. Yes, this time I will hold my tongue, because I think that anything I say will just ...yeah. And I don't feel like getting into any more...squabbles.

So I'm done.

-rep for being afraid of getting - rep

haha
kidding