Behaving Ourselves

[Kokoro777]

With lots of new members in our club in recent months, including myself, comments have been made by the senior grades regarding the lack of proper etiquette in the dojo. Everything from answering mobile phones, beginning practise before permission has been given (potentially dangerous), swigging from drinks bottles whilst swaggering around the dojo, 'thunder-clap' hakama sabaki and far worse in my opinion, responding to instruction/correction with "Well, Sensei XXX says its done like this not like that" which I personally find very rude and undermining of seniority. Most of us don't even know how to pass by each other politely etc.

It struck me that we didn't have a definitive source of appropriate etiquette for an Iai dojo and I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction or give me some suggestions so I can put an etiquette guide together for us all.

[atgm]

Your sensei or most senior member. What he says is law.

Not very democratic, but martial arts aren't.

Edit: And if people aren't mature enough to follow some rules in a dojo, then they're probably not mature enough to do iai.

[Kokoro777]

I agree that what 'Sensei' does and says is law, but the problem is that in the UK its hard to impose a behaviour upon people, when those same behaviours are deemed perfectly appropriate in many other avenues of life. At worst, traditional dojo etiquette is seen as quaint, out-of-date and vaguely silly. "So what if I walk directly in front of a fellow dojo member?" would be the attitude. I suppose it reflects our society's attitudes in general. Last week I saw one person staring, in bovine bewilderment, into space, yawning widely whilst a very senior visiting Sensei was imparting his wisdom to us and I thought it was rude and disrespectful. I think if someone in the dojo said "You're welcome to drink that outside the dojo" or "Turn your phone off in here" they'd just get a funny look at best or give some back chat-"I'm rehydrating myself" or "I'm expecting an important call".

So I thought a Dojo Etiquette guide, given to everyone, might just be enough to make people think about what they're doing and if its appropriate rather than a heavy handed approach which may be confrontational and counter-productive.

[suneohair]

its sad to say there are people like that. maybe not intentionally, more like being insensitive. funny, first thing i was thought in kendo was respect. guess its not the case with others.

[atgm]

I fail to see how a written version of the rules would somehow impress them more than the spoken version of the rules. There's a basic misunderstanding on their part (that etiquette is unnecessary) and they need to fix it.

[b8amack]

With lots of new members in our club in recent months, including myself, comments have been made by the senior grades regarding the lack of proper etiquette in the dojo. Everything from answering mobile phones, beginning practise before permission has been given (potentially dangerous), swigging from drinks bottles whilst swaggering around the dojo, 'thunder-clap' hakama sabaki and far worse in my opinion, responding to instruction/correction with "Well, Sensei XXX says its done like this not like that" which I personally find very rude and undermining of seniority. Most of us don't even know how to pass by each other politely etc.

It struck me that we didn't have a definitive source of appropriate etiquette for an Iai dojo and I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction or give me some suggestions so I can put an etiquette guide together for us all.

If you're a new member, then putting together an etiquette guide is poor etiquette.

[Wookiesmurf]

If you're a new member, then putting together an etiquette guide is poor etiquette.

I agree. Focus on yourself and your own training until you've been around long enough to have some pull in the dojo.

[Oroshi]

These people will either fix their behaviour or quit before too long. Depending on the sensei, they may even be invited to leave. As b8amack says, it's not your responsibility.

Focus on your own behaviour instead. Good reigi means you have better iaido, and in addition seniors will take note of your effort and be more willing to spend time teaching you. People who refuse to improve their conduct instead get ignored, their training stagnates, and they quit. End of problem.

[rfoxmich]

..most likely quit... after all they only came there to learn some nifty moves, and now they see it's real work.

[pgsmith]

What you are proposing is the job of the sempai. The more senior members of the dojo are supposed to step up and straighten out any etiquette problems such as you are describing. If they are not doing this, there are deeper problems. The fact that you didn't know that you would be out of line doing this yourself indicates that you don't have the requisite knowledge to do what you were originally proposing.

[MikeW]

Well I think it is a good idea to have a written copy of dojo rules, terms and an explanation of reiho for beginners personally. I always hand out a sheet to new students that go over the basics. Reiho is the foundation of martial arts and it is part of what makes it a way of life instead of just a fight (IMHO). That said, I agree that this is better done (or at least overseen) by a senpai/sensei and not by a beginner. More because the other beginners will be more likely to take it to heart if an 'authoritative' person in the dojo is handing down the rules as opposed to someone they might see as an equal, if you follow my drift. In the western world you're right that our culture is not based on traditional Japanese behaviors and that can create conflicts in the dojo. People that are serious about martial arts will accept this and learn correct behavior if given the opportunity. But even this most basic behavior is foreign to many (most) western students and they do need to be educated. This doesn't need to be a detailed step by step sort of thing, just an outline of basic reiho.

[ghostdancer]

With lots of new members in our club in recent months, including myself, comments have been made by the senior grades regarding the lack of proper etiquette in the dojo. Everything from answering mobile phones, beginning practise before permission has been given (potentially dangerous), swigging from drinks bottles whilst swaggering around the dojo, 'thunder-clap' hakama sabaki and far worse in my opinion, responding to instruction/correction with "Well, Sensei XXX says its done like this not like that" which I personally find very rude and undermining of seniority. Most of us don't even know how to pass by each other politely etc.

It struck me that we didn't have a definitive source of appropriate etiquette for an Iai dojo and I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction or give me some suggestions so I can put an etiquette guide together for us all.

i am afraid to say you are making the assumption that they are capable of

(a) reading the guide or
(b) understanding it or
(c) giving a toss

you cant put it were it wont go

leave it to your senior club members

[shred_lord]

I agree that what 'Sensei' does and says is law, but the problem is that in the UK its hard to impose a behaviour upon people, when those same behaviours are deemed perfectly appropriate in many other avenues of life. At worst, traditional dojo etiquette is seen as quaint, out-of-date and vaguely silly. "So what if I walk directly in front of a fellow dojo member?" would be the attitude. I suppose it reflects our society's attitudes in general. Last week I saw one person staring, in bovine bewilderment, into space, yawning widely whilst a very senior visiting Sensei was imparting his wisdom to us and I thought it was rude and disrespectful. I think if someone in the dojo said "You're welcome to drink that outside the dojo" or "Turn your phone off in here" they'd just get a funny look at best or give some back chat-"I'm rehydrating myself" or "I'm expecting an important call".

So I thought a Dojo Etiquette guide, given to everyone, might just be enough to make people think about what they're doing and if its appropriate rather than a heavy handed approach which may be confrontational and counter-productive.I have no such problem with enforcing etiquette in the dojo (also in the UK). I tell them to do, or not do something and they follow my instruction. Simple as. You seem to have a low opinion of your Kohai.

Edit: Just to point out the this is at the Dojo I teach.

[Anime12478]

I think I can briefly chime in on this (though I really should be working on stuff).

It can sometimes help if you can really give them a reason why they need to follow the general etiquette rules. Some people respond to instructions pretty well and others might want to know why they are doing what they are doing before things start to "click." Whether it's a safety issue, common sense or something in the context of the Japanese culture (or whatever culture your activity belongs to), putting some meaning behind something other than telling others to "just do it" allows me to understand the instructions better or, in rare cases, puts them higher on the respect-o-meter for me.

Other than that, you should already know the disciplinary process...

[Neil Gendzwill]

This is the downfall of iaido - in kendo, we can be a lot, urm, clearer in our corrections of these problems...

[Tort-Speed]

While the Sensei and Sempai would be the rightful people to require appropriate in-dojo behavior, there can be cases where they may be
unaware of poor manners (like when concentrating hard on teaching) - or, they elect to bear it. For public dojos, was told the Sensei tolerate stuff with children, or those kids and their moms would choose another activity.
That a newcomer is aware of poor etiquette, is impressive, IMHO. Perhaps carrying on with one's own study in such an environment, leaving it to the seniors as in the proper order of things, will be a special kind of training? When seeing rudeness from the young or the not, however, 'do appreciative that somewhere along the way, I was told or by chance, on my own, had observed, the correct Way.

[David G]

Just behave correctly yourself. The ones that care will do so also.

[Halcyon]

This is the downfall of iaido - in kendo, we can be a lot, urm, clearer in our corrections of these problems...
Hehehe. Definitely.

At a dojo of a sufficient size (in terms of the number and longevity of members), it's traditionally up to the senior students to be the "enforcers." The top sensei really shouldn't have to get into this nitty gritty stuff. It can be a drag to have this responsibility thrust upon you if you're a senior student, but hey, them's the breaks. Being an enforcer also means you have to set a good example for your kohai to follow -- everything from proper etiquette when entering the dojo to dressing neatly and keeping your equipment in good condition.

Every once in a while, you'll come across a kohai whose "cup is too full." I'm not sure if a written set of rules is necessarily going to cure these folks of their inattention. It's largely a matter of patient repetition. This is part of the "training" as a sempai as well.

[Kokoro777]

The problem is with only a couple of people in the dojo and despite suggestion that they need to think about their behaviour they seem to forget about it very quickly. Repeated reinforcement doesn't seem to have an effect. I suggested a hand-out to my dojo leader as a gentle reminder since social pressure from ones peers is a powerful force in modifying behaviour. He said it was a great idea and that I should go ahead and do this as a useful learning experience and naturally he'd check it all before he hands them out. He felt I was capable of doing this because I've been involved in the martial arts (well, Karate) for 20+ years, I'm a mature, polite, resourceful person of good standing in the community etc etc.... (I'm virtually a saint :wink:)

Being a Sempai isn't about ones grade (one of our highest graded members is a 15 year old boy in every sense of the word) just as being an instructor doesn't automatically make one a 'Sensei'.

I think our dojo must be quite 'progressive' in attitude in that there's no silly shouting, screaming and barking of orders or enforcing of rules like a teacher may have to at school because most of us do as is expected of us and behave impeccably-there's just one person who seems incapable of doing so-yes its just one person in reality who seems resistant.

So, does anyone have any suggestions that I can out forward for inspection by my dojo leader?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Being a Sempai isn't about ones gradeWell, actually it is. Or rather, it's about seniority. If someone started in the dojo before you and is higher ranked, he's your sempai.

And speaking of etiquette, you'll note that nobody else around here uses coloured text.

[shred_lord]

He said it was a great idea and that I should go ahead and do this as a useful learning experience and naturally he'd check it all before he hands them out.Why did you not say this at the start.



being an instructor doesn't automatically make one a 'Sensei'.
I what sense may I ask?

[Big One]

The etiquette is more of reinforcing the appreciation of the dojo. Many people will eventually realilze that and will follow the path well. However if you talk about children, that is a different story. You just have to acknowledge that kids will be kids.

Talking about etiquette, one time I jigeiko with another guy in the dojo. I was nidan and he was shodan. At the begining, I murmured "you are dead meat" and he said "your head is mine", and suddenly there was a sandan guy came over and chewing us for doing that. He started to talk about etiquette, seriousness in kendo, blah blah blah. Guess what, he was kicked out the dojo for doing something stupid regarding about the dojo against the sensei warning. According to other sensei, his kendo sucked too. My point is etiquette is something you have to appreciate, not just talk.

[Kaoru]

Talking about etiquette, one time I jigeiko with another guy in the dojo. I was nidan and he was shodan. At the begining, I murmured "you are dead meat" and he said "your head is mine", and suddenly there was a sandan guy came over and chewing us for doing that. He started to talk about etiquette, seriousness in kendo, blah blah blah.

I'm still not feeling good enough(been sick all week.) to make a half decent comment on this discussion, but I have to say, that what you guys said to each other made me laugh! And, it made me wonder what Samurai said to each other when they were going to fight each other. I don't think every fight was polite and without words.... Anyway, aside from that, it's not like you guys were yelling it at each other! It was all in fun. Besides wanting ippon, right? I don't know why you'd get yelled at for it. You can't be going, Oh, would you like a cup of tea? before attacking someone. That's not being strong and showing a fighting spirit.

And I have to ask, since I haven't had a chance to fight anyone myself, is it really considered rude to do that? Just wondering... I mean, if one was intending to be rude, that's one thing, but, if it was like what you guys did?

Sorry for thread drift... Just was curious. :)

Kaoru

[Halcyon]

And I have to ask, since I haven't had a chance to fight anyone myself, is it really considered rude to do that? Just wondering... I mean, if one was intending to be rude, that's one thing, but, if it was like what you guys did?
There's a time and place for everything. You have to figure out who you can joke around with, and who likes to keep things serious. Nothing wrong with a bit of levity. Just have to read the situation correctly.

[Kaoru]

There's a time and place for everything. You have to figure out who you can joke around with, and who likes to keep things serious. Nothing wrong with a bit of levity. Just have to read the situation correctly.

Oh, ok. I see! That makes sense. Thank you very much for answering my question. :)

Kaoru

[1stdan]

Karou. I have guys (and gals) in my dojo that i talk to a little during Keiko. Stuff Like "nice kote" "great shot" and even some that talk back to me. The whole time tho I am trying to do my best, I always listen first and maybe sneak in a word or two. There are keiko partners i wouldn't dream of talking too as well. You just have to read the room so to speak. A lot of what i hear is sempai telling me what to do and not do. and me saying thanks. If it were dead serious 100% of the time i prolly would not be there.

[Kaoru]

Karou. I have guys (and gals) in my dojo that i talk to a little during Keiko. Stuff Like "nice kote" "great shot" and even some that talk back to me. The whole time tho I am trying to do my best, I always listen first and maybe sneak in a word or two. There are keiko partners i wouldn't dream of talking too as well. You just have to read the room so to speak. A lot of what i hear is sempai telling me what to do and not do. and me saying thanks. If it were dead serious 100% of the time i prolly would not be there.

Thanks 1stdan-san!

It's interesting to see how it changes a little when you are no longer just the person doing the attacking. I just hear what to fix and sometimes what I actually did right or told to try to do this or that better... or, just to move faster! :D Then I say hai! and then thank you when appropriate. Otherwise, it is just my place to do as asked and don't talk. :) It's all fun for me! Being dead serious doesn't really bother me much. :) I just like to practice!

Kaoru

[Kokoro777]

And speaking of etiquette, you'll note that nobody else around here uses coloured text.:confused::confused2

[Kokoro777]

Why did you not say this at the start. Because I didn't think my post would meet with such consternation.

I what sense may I ask?It comes from something I read in Dave Lowry's brilliant 'Persimmon Wind' (pp.107-109, Koryu Books, first hardcover version 2005). He begins-

'In budo dojo in the United States and elsewhere outside Japan, the term "Sensei" or even "master" is used loosely. Often, the person leading a class during any given session or anyone who opens a school for studying the martial arts is referred to by students by one of those titles. In Japan, this aspect of the martial ways is subject to to a more strict governance....[national organizations] are stringent about the process for becoming a formally-recognized teacher of the art [Iaido]...'

He goes on to mention several highly graded Iaidoka in the dojo he's practising in, with decades of experience for who the term of 'Sensei' etc is never used because they haven't been officially given it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

:confused::confused2

And yet it continues... just like dojo etiquette, one should look around here and see what the norms are.

As far as the term "sensei" goes, in Japan it is often used for anyone who is teaching you - could be a high school teacher, whatever. "Sensei" denotes a relationship, not really a formal title. In Canada it is slightly more formalized in that we don't usually use that term for someone under 4th dan. However if someone lower ranked is in charge of their dojo, then they certainly could be considered sensei. So for example, I have friends who teach in other dojos. Their students may call them sensei or maybe they just use their names. Most people under godan aren't all that comfortable yet with being called sensei. For that matter, a lot of godan aren't either. If you have someone lower-ranked who insists on being called sensei, that's usually an ego problem even though technically the relationship is one of teacher-student.

If I refer to these people in front of their students and they are yondan and up I will say "X-sensei" or "Y-sensei". But addressing them directly I will just call them by name because they are not my sensei. But there are those senior teachers whom I always refer to as sensei even though I am not their student directly. In Canada those are typically people 7 dan or higher, or some senior 6 dans (not me). I might even refer to people whom I've never met as sensei, for example Miyazaki-sensei. It's a sign of respect and acknowledgement of his position in the kendo world, even though he is not my teacher.

In other words, it's a little bit complicated. Most of my students just call me Neil.

[JSchmidt]

In Japan, this aspect of the martial ways is subject to to a more strict governance....[national organizations] are stringent about the process for becoming a formally-recognized teacher of the art'[/I]


Koryu is different from ZNKR and should not be directly compared when it comes to grades and titles.

P.S. What's the annoying blue text?

[Shinsengumi77]

And yet it continues... just like dojo etiquette, one should look around here and see what the norms are.

It should have happened sooner, but this statement just clicked for me...


...how do I change the avatar in my profile? It feels lame having to ask, but I can't for the life of me figure out how.

[Moonrise]

...how do I change the avatar in my profile?

Go to the top of this page, to the menu item "Forum Actions." From the drop-down menu, choose "edit profile." On the page that takes you to, look at the left column, and select "edit avatar."

[Shinsengumi77]

Thanks!

[pgsmith]

The problem is with only a couple of people in the dojo and despite suggestion that they need to think about their behaviour they seem to forget about it very quickly. Repeated reinforcement doesn't seem to have an effect. I suggested a hand-out to my dojo leader as a gentle reminder since social pressure from ones peers is a powerful force in modifying behaviour. He said it was a great idea and that I should go ahead and do this as a useful learning experience and naturally he'd check it all before he hands them out. He felt I was capable of doing this because I've been involved in the martial arts (well, Karate) for 20+ years, I'm a mature, polite, resourceful person of good standing in the community etc etc.... (I'm virtually a saint )

Being a Sempai isn't about ones grade (one of our highest graded members is a 15 year old boy in every sense of the word) just as being an instructor doesn't automatically make one a 'Sensei'.

I think our dojo must be quite 'progressive' in attitude in that there's no silly shouting, screaming and barking of orders or enforcing of rules like a teacher may have to at school because most of us do as is expected of us and behave impeccably-there's just one person who seems incapable of doing so-yes its just one person in reality who seems resistant.

So, does anyone have any suggestions that I can out forward for inspection by my dojo leader?
Huh ... way to argue with everybody. You made a very specific statement and then, when the responses weren't what you expected, you argued for what you originally wanted instead of trying to understand the point that others were making. So if you already know what you want to do, and have your sensei's permission to do it, why are you seeking validation from strangers on the internet?

It seems to me that you don't have the requisite experience to do what you are planning if you expect that a "less progressive" dojo would have "silly shouting, screaming and barking of orders or enforcing of rules like a teacher may have to at school". I've been in quite a large number of dojo both in the U.S. and Japan. The only place I've ever encountered what you describe was in an "American Karate" dojo, which had no actual Japanese ties.

[hyuna]

The problem is with only a couple of people in the dojo

there's just one person who seems incapable of doing so
I don't get it. If the problem is just with one or two people (which is it, anyway?), why would you hand something out to everyone?

As for suggestions, I think there are really only two rules, which have already been summed up in the thread. But I'll lay it out as succinctly as I can:
1) Be as the seniors are.
2) Be how the juniors should be.

[enkorat]

Not all students respond to "gentle reminders"...and depending on the person and situation, you may have to resort to "silly shouting". Other students don't respond well to "silly shouting", and respond better to "gentle reminders". Sometimes as an instructor, you can't be the "saint" but have to be the "devil".

If you don't want to take on the responsibility and burden of being the "enforcer", which there is quite a bit and isn't just "silly shouting" because much of it is training to be an instructor, then do what hyuna says, its very good advice.

[MartialArtsGirl]

I agree that what 'Sensei' does and says is law, but the problem is that in the UK its hard to impose a behaviour upon people, when those same behaviours are deemed perfectly appropriate in many other avenues of life. At worst, traditional dojo etiquette is seen as quaint, out-of-date and vaguely silly. "So what if I walk directly in front of a fellow dojo member?" would be the attitude. I suppose it reflects our society's attitudes in general. Last week I saw one person staring, in bovine bewilderment, into space, yawning widely whilst a very senior visiting Sensei was imparting his wisdom to us and I thought it was rude and disrespectful. I think if someone in the dojo said "You're welcome to drink that outside the dojo" or "Turn your phone off in here" they'd just get a funny look at best or give some back chat-"I'm rehydrating myself" or "I'm expecting an important call".

So I thought a Dojo Etiquette guide, given to everyone, might just be enough to make people think about what they're doing and if its appropriate rather than a heavy handed approach which may be confrontational and counter-productive.

I think that's a good idea. If no one tells you, how are you supposed to know?
Some people just arn't as observant (at least starting at in kendo) as others. It's not insensitive. Insensitive implies a lack of caring, or a belief that it's not important.

Sorry, but some of us just really arn't good at being aware of our surroundings (so hence don't even think or notice when other people do stuff. This isn't Japan so we arn't used to just watching and then doing...we're used to people telling it to us explicitly), and it has nothing to do with a lack of caring.

[Wraith]

I think that's a good idea. If no one tells you, how are you supposed to know?
Some people just arn't as observant (at least starting at in kendo) as others. It's not insensitive. Insensitive implies a lack of caring, or a belief that it's not important.

Sorry, but some of us just really arn't good at being aware of our surroundings (so hence don't even think or notice when other people do stuff. This isn't Japan so we arn't used to just watching and then doing...we're used to people telling it to us explicitly), and it has nothing to do with a lack of caring.

If you're an adult you should be mature enough to behave properly whilst in the dojo, children may need an adjustment at first, and a little more guidance. It's not exactly rocket science, is it?

[David G]

1) Be as the seniors are.
2) Be how the juniors should be.

That sums it up!!

(Providing the seniors do behave correctly!! :D )

[Kim Taylor]

Just noticed this.

Etiquette: Shut up and pay attention.

Kim.

[nodachi]

"Sorry, but some of us just really arn't good at being aware of our surroundings (so hence don't even think or notice when other people do stuff. This isn't Japan so we arn't used to just watching and then doing...we're used to people telling it to us explicitly), and it has nothing to do with a lack of caring."

I'm not trying to attack you specifically, but this type of comment kinda bothers me. The Kendo atmosphere does put a lot of emphasis on behavior and ettiquete and procedure and so on. Even non martial arts people know that. Do they know the actual rules, often not. But the only way to resolve these two issues is to make an effort to be more aware of our surroundings. Have I met some people who are unaware of stuff around them to a big extent, occassionally. But if you know that procedure and ettiquete are so important, why would you not try to pay attention to learn appropriate behavior? For some people, I think it does indicate a lack of caring.

Again, not trying to attack you specifically, but claiming cultural/society differences doesn't excuse people from trying to learn how to behave correctly in certain situations.

[Big One]

Sorry, but some of us just really arn't good at being aware of our surroundings (so hence don't even think or notice when other people do stuff. This isn't Japan so we arn't used to just watching and then doing...we're used to people telling it to us explicitly), and it has nothing to do with a lack of caring.


Not only in the Dojo but in the real life too if an adult didn't pay attention to his or her surrounding, we call him or her arrogant and stupid. If you don't pay attention to your surrounding, you endanger yourself and people arround you if something happen. In my field of work construction, not paying attention to your surround may lead to an accident and I had seen several fatality ones too. And for you MartialArtsGirl, if you do not change your attitude about your surrounding, please don't come to the dojo or even don't get out of your house, we don't want to be in dangers by being arounding you.

[Shinsengumi77]

Being polite and attentive isn't difficult. Even if you say you're the type that doesn't pick up on subtle things and needs to be explicitly told, it still doesn't take much effort to behave.

There are some people who resist etiquette because they are headstrong or don't like formality, but those people probably would have quit kendo early on. Some just learn to grow up and do what needs to be done, and again, it really isn't asking much. If you've got a 'tude problem, correct it or keep it to yourself. Kendo is about striving to become a better person, and gaining some humility and manners is a great way to start.

[MartialArtsGirl]

"Sorry, but some of us just really arn't good at being aware of our surroundings (so hence don't even think or notice when other people do stuff. This isn't Japan so we arn't used to just watching and then doing...we're used to people telling it to us explicitly), and it has nothing to do with a lack of caring."

I'm not trying to attack you specifically, but this type of comment kinda bothers me. The Kendo atmosphere does put a lot of emphasis on behavior and ettiquete and procedure and so on. Even non martial arts people know that. Do they know the actual rules, often not. But the only way to resolve these two issues is to make an effort to be more aware of our surroundings. Have I met some people who are unaware of stuff around them to a big extent, occassionally. But if you know that procedure and ettiquete are so important, why would you not try to pay attention to learn appropriate behavior? For some people, I think it does indicate a lack of caring.

Again, not trying to attack you specifically, but claiming cultural/society differences doesn't excuse people from trying to learn how to behave correctly in certain situations.

No, I understand. I really do try my best to be polite and follow etiquette. I think it's neat and is a way of showing respect. I was just feeling really frustrated, because someone called me rude, not for the first time (even though I am trying not to be rude!). And usually its not a matter of "you are being rude, please stop" (and telling me in a nice way.) Usually it's some kind of nasty or demeaning way of telling me, so I'm like "what? huh? where did that come from?". So I guess I was being rude and didn't realize it. Whatever, I dont want to talk about it anymore. Now I'm going to get ANOTHER layer on my bad repuation on "KW". And there are a number of amazing Sensei and kendoka that I wouldn't want to think badly of me if they ever knew me in person. :( It's not like I'm a mean person or don't respect my sempai or Sensei. It's just that, I dont think and I'm aloof I guess. :( btw I'm not talking about the obvious stuff here, as in attitude problems stuff, or bowing or whatever. Just the subtle stuff.

I also want to add, I've never been called rude outside of the Kendo community.

[turboyoshi]

Not only in the Dojo but in the real life too if an adult didn't pay attention to his or her surrounding, we call him or her arrogant and stupid.

I think it's a bit rude of you to imply this kind of thing about a person you haven't personally met. I may understand a bit of where MAgirl is coming from on this subject, and no one who knows me personally would call me arrogant and/or stupid. Some people just need more explicit instructions to understand rules that many others would pick up on intuitively. That in itself doesn't signify a deficiency in intelligence and certainly not arrogance. Our brains don't all work the same way. It should be obvious if a person is not even trying to follow the rules, but you can't assume that without having personal knowledge of the situation.

[Kaoru]

The problem is with only a couple of people in the dojo and despite suggestion that they need to think about their behaviour they seem to forget about it very quickly. Repeated reinforcement doesn't seem to have an effect. I suggested a hand-out to my dojo leader as a gentle reminder since social pressure from ones peers is a powerful force in modifying behaviour. He said it was a great idea and that I should go ahead and do this as a useful learning experience and naturally he'd check it all before he hands them out. He felt I was capable of doing this because I've been involved in the martial arts (well, Karate) for 20+ years, I'm a mature, polite, resourceful person of good standing in the community etc etc.... (I'm virtually a saint :wink:)

Being a Sempai isn't about ones grade (one of our highest graded members is a 15 year old boy in every sense of the word) just as being an instructor doesn't automatically make one a 'Sensei'.

I think our dojo must be quite 'progressive' in attitude in that there's no silly shouting, screaming and barking of orders or enforcing of rules like a teacher may have to at school because most of us do as is expected of us and behave impeccably-there's just one person who seems incapable of doing so-yes its just one person in reality who seems resistant.

So, does anyone have any suggestions that I can out forward for inspection by my dojo leader?

Ok... Now that I am feeling a whole lot better, I can write something that will make sense. I have been reading this thread all week though and thinking about it.

First... I can understand the frustration you feel about the lack of etiquette shown by what you now say, are just a few members. A long time ago, in late April, 2003, I once belonged to a non-legitimate kumdo dojang(Yours is legit, I know.). before I joined that dojang, I had trained in TDK in a very strict dojang quite a few years before that. In that dojang, a lack of etiquette was seen as something you did not do, period. You took 3 steps back after bowing to whomever was teaching before turning around, you said please and thank you, and yes sir, you asked politely(Slang was not allowed.), a dojangmate to practice with you, and the senior students were expected to help the junior students when they noticed they needed it or if asked, and did not treat them as if they were not important. The junior students were to show the proper respect and do as the seniors asked them to, as long as it was a reasonable request. Not bowing was considered impolite, as well. And, all ranks, especially beginners, were not expected to be idle before practice began. If you were idle, you were wasting time. And, uniforms were to be kept neat and clean. The instructors always followed proper etiquette as well. So, as you can see, I was used to good manners and showing good manners myself, in the dojo.

So... Years later I decided to attend the kumdo dojang I mentioned above. What did I find? I found a total lack of respect to anyone in that school. But, they were oblivious to it. I remember bowing and greeting the teacher first thing, when I came into the school, since that had been expected of us in the TDK dojang, and then him giving me a strange look and not returning a bow. It really bothered me, but never said anything. As a matter of fact, I do have a post that I wrote about this very thing, about 2-3 weeks after starting, on another forum here, that you ought to read, since I felt the same way as you did, and you can see my thoughts about it:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=9463&Number=111325#Post111325

As you can see after reading my post, I knew my hands were tied because of my position in the dojang.

And, what did I do about the whole thing? Nothing. I just kept up the etiquette I was taught, hoping it would catch on. Eventually, a couple of the students started bowing back, but that was about it. The teacher never did. You win some, you lose some. :)

The reason I didn't do or say anything is because I was a new student and not a senior student who had a high enough rank to be able to approach the teacher and ask about it. I eventually found out here, in Sept. 2003 that the place I was attending was bogus anyway, so that's why I do kendo now. Even so, if the place HAD used good etiquette, I'd have had no issue with the etiquette.

So. In my opinion, it really wasn't your place to approach your dojo leader about this, since you are new. If you don't like the lack of manners, you need to just be an example to others with your good manners. Sometimes, that does work. And, I am not sure if you intend to have your name attached to this etiquette handout or not, but please realise if people find out that you wrote it, even if it is NOT on it, that might not be good. The reason is, that people expect that info to come from the sensei/dojo leader, and not from a beginner. And, they may resent that.

I personally think you ought not to be the one to write a handout on proper etiquette. That to me, is a little rude in itself, when coming from a junior, unless the teacher actually approached you first, and asked.

I think the proper place for etiquette rules should be on the website, and ought to be put up anonymously. And, then all students ought to be directed by the dojo leader to read them there. And then, he ought to put his foot down. If your sensei says you can write them up, that is fine as long as HE approves it, and then he himself puts it up on the website, not you. I DO feel that it is he, who ought to be writing and setting the etiquette for the dojo though. It just isn't your place.

I know you think you are a saint and all(Was that cheek? ;) ) but please... just let your dojo leader handle it, ok? I know it is very bothersome to have some people just not get it, as far as etiquette goes, but that is just how it is, until you become a high enough ranked person to have a say.

Oh, and I wanted to make a point about re-enforcement. It takes the right kind to make it stick, and the soft sort does not always work. Sometimes, one has to be politely firm about things. I believe a consequence should be given to enforce the etiquette if it is repeatedly broken. If one just lets it slide each time, how can one expect it to be followed? (And, this is not for you to do.)

Oh, and yes, a person's rank does matter. There is a sempai who is like, 35 years younger than me in another dojo that I've had the opportunity to practice with. This little guy is so cute, but he out ranks me. So, guess what? I do what he tells me to do when practicing with him. Age or rank, rank comes first, imho.

I hope this helps. :)

(I guess I sound like a stick in the mud. :ko: I have a strong view on etiquette.)

Oh, and speaking of that colored text. You need a good reason why not to use it, other than it's not polite... It hurts people's eyes. Please stop using it. I love the color pink, but I don't use it, because not everyone appreciates colored text. I will put up a poll to illustrate what I mean... :) You will find it in the lounge.

Kaoru

[b8amack]

Maybe I misread the OP, but I thought he had said that the dojo seniors were berating the juniors (of which the OP is one) for their lack of etiquette, not that there was a complete absence of etiquette in the dojo, and OP decided to do something about it.

[Kaoru]

Maybe I misread the OP, but I thought he had said that the dojo seniors were berating the juniors (of which the OP is one) for their lack of etiquette, not that there was a complete absence of etiquette in the dojo, and OP decided to do something about it.

I was talking about MY former "kumdo" dojang that had the total lack of etiquette. :) Please read my post again and also read the link I provided in regard to the etiquette problem in that dojang. :) I also noted that he eventually said only a few people in his dojo were causing a problem as opposed to my dojang. The etiquette issue and how it made me feel is similar in nature to his, so that's why I wrote about it. And yes, he said in a previous post that some seniors were complaining, and he decided he was going to do something about it.

I posted about that to let him know that someone else was once in his position. And, I figured if he read about my experience, it would be helpful to him.

Kaoru

[Big One]

I think it's a bit rude of you to imply this kind of thing about a person you haven't personally met. I may understand a bit of where MAgirl is coming from on this subject, and no one who knows me personally would call me arrogant and/or stupid. Some people just need more explicit instructions to understand rules that many others would pick up on intuitively. That in itself doesn't signify a deficiency in intelligence and certainly not arrogance. Our brains don't all work the same way. It should be obvious if a person is not even trying to follow the rules, but you can't assume that without having personal knowledge of the situation.

In general if a person doesn't pay attention around him, what do you think of him? A person walk into a funeral and laughing out loud because he doesn't see a funeral. What do you call a driver doesn't pay attention arounding him? What do you call a person who is swearing out loud when children are presenting? What do you call a person who is talking on cell phone in the theater. Sorry pal, I don't have to know them personally to know that they are arrogant and stupid. Paying attention arounding you is the first thing you should learn or may be you just don't care. All of these are etiquette of lives.

[Kaoru]

In general if a person doesn't pay attention around him, what do you think of him? A person walk into a funeral and laughing out loud because he doesn't see a funeral. What do you call a driver doesn't pay attention arounding him? What do you call a person who is swearing out loud when children are presenting? What do you call a person who is talking on cell phone in the theater. Sorry pal, I don't have to know them personally to know that they are arrogant and stupid. Paying attention arounding you is the first thing you should learn or may be you just don't care. All of these are etiquette of lives.


Ok guys, let's calm down and not get mad...

Big One-san,

You as well as Turboyoshi-san make very good and valid points. I think what Turboyoshi-san is saying that you cannot assume a person is arrogant or stupid just because of what they are doing. There may be reasons for why.

For example, in the dojo, maybe someone didn't realise they are not supposed to do X thing. It happens, you know. They may not have yet heard/been told that they shouldn't do X thing, so think it is ok to do X thing. It is up to the sensei/sempai to make sure that the students are made aware of the rules of etiquette. And, it is up to the sensei/dojo leader to enforce such etiquette. If he/she does not even say anything, how can you expect the rest of the dojo to pay attention and act accordingly? In the end though, if they don't know, it is one of 3 reasons: They were not told, or they misunderstood an etiquette thing(That can happen.) or, just didn't listen to the instructions. It doesn't automatically make them arrogant or stupid. Though, that doesn't mean they don't have a problem like that.

In the real world... This is where you have to give people a little bit of lee-way and observe the situation before making a judgement. Maybe the person has a mental challenge that causes them to not know certain things. Or, maybe it is a physical condition like Tourette's Syndrome that causes someone to make noises uncontrollably. These people have a right to be where they want to be. Mentally challenged people just need gentle guidance and understanding. These sort of people are not stupid or arrogant. They just either can't control things or know how to act in certain situations.

Other people who do not have any challenges as such, well, I would not be so harsh as to call them arrogant or stupid(Though, it can sometimes be very tempting, I agree!). Uninformed and ignorant(lack of knowledge about something) are better words. Ignorance of common etiquette these days is rampant due to poor parental teaching when growing up for the most part. So, you just ignore those people or politely help them out if the situation allows it and the opportunity presents itself if it will not make things worse. (last resort thing.)

I think lumping everyone who does something that is bad etiquette into the "they are arrogant and stupid" category is not fair.

And also, his point about some needing more explicit explanations of etiquette makes sense too. People at different ages assimilate things differently. It's a maturity issue. And, people ARE different from each other. You have to take that into account too. The same rules should apply to everyone, but sometimes, people have to be made to understand in a certain way, if they are not getting it.

Now, you Big One-san, have made a good point as well... That people need to be more aware of their surroundings and pay attention to what is going on and act correctly. However, you have to remember that not everyone was brought up properly or, grew up around others who have good manners in which to emulate. So, a lack of common etiquette is to be expected among a lot of people. This is a shame of course. There's nothing that can be done for the most part.

I guess the bottom line is, that nobody is perfect. I agree with both of you however, but not the name calling. :)

Ok well, I did put a little of my own ideas into all this too... :) Hope it will make sense to both of you.

Let's play nicely, shall we please? :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Ok, I just got this funny forward from my Mother, which I think will sum things up nicely on the subject... :D

It is titled: Women Drivers! (The title has nothing to do with the moral of it.)

I copied and pasted it exactly as I received it.

WOMEN DRIVERS!

This morning on the Interstate,
I looked over to my left and there was a

Woman

In a brand new
Cadillac

Doing 65 mph

With her Face up next to her
Rear view mirror

Putting on her eyeliner.

I looked away For a couple seconds...

And when I looked back she was
Halfway over in my lane,

Still working on that makeup.

As a man, I don't scare easily.

But she scared me so much;
I dropped

My electric shaver... Which knocked
The donut...
Out of my other hand.

In all The confusion of trying
To straighten out the car

Using my knees against
The steering wheel,

It knocked

My Cell Phone Away from my ear Which fell
Into the coffee

Between my legs!

Splashed,

And burned
Big Jim and the Twins,

Ruined the damn phone, Soaked my trousers, And disconnected an
Important call.

Damn women drivers!

--------------------------

Can you all guess the moral behind this funny joke??

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

P.S. I don't mean it sums up the whole thread.

Kaoru

[turboyoshi]

In general if a person doesn't pay attention around him, what do you think of him? A person walk into a funeral and laughing out loud because he doesn't see a funeral. What do you call a driver doesn't pay attention arounding him? What do you call a person who is swearing out loud when children are presenting? What do you call a person who is talking on cell phone in the theater. Sorry pal, I don't have to know them personally to know that they are arrogant and stupid. Paying attention arounding you is the first thing you should learn or may be you just don't care. All of these are etiquette of lives.

This is what we call "straw man" argument.
While I understand what you're saying, you don't seem to be paying attention to what I've written. I'm talking about more subtle cases. As I said in my post:
Some people just need more explicit instructions to understand rules that many others would pick up on intuitively. You don't need intuition to tell you there's a funeral going on or when your car is moving into the wrong lane or obstructing the flow of traffic. I'm talking about rules of social etiquette, primarily involving communication such as maintaining proper eye contact during conversation, or knowing when you're boring someone with your conversation, knowing when to speak and not interrupt. If these rules seem obvious to you, I can assure you there are people who do not understand them without having it explicitly explained. Some of us don't recognize the visual cues that contain this information. I may not be talking about the same thing Magirl was saying, but she stated that she was not talking about obvious breaches of etiquette. You seem to be misunderstanding that. All I am trying to point out to you is that neither of us have enough data to say that MAgirl is being stupid or arrogant but that is what you implied. I found that to be unnecessarily rude so I'm calling you on it.

Regarding the OP, I think hyuna and Kim have made the most important observations. If you are a senior, your job is to show by example and if you are a junior, your job is to leave the enforcing to the seniors. If the seniors aren't doing the job as you would like, well, that's not your problem to fix. That role belongs to the sensei. Anything else makes you come across as the kind of person who butts in where he doesn't belong, regardless of how polite your sensei is being to you about it. If no one else is doing anything about it, then you must be the problem, not them.

[Big One]

Please reread my post, in no where I stated that MAG is stupid and arrogant.

[b8amack]

Please reread my post, in no where I stated that MAG is stupid and arrogant.




I think that's a good idea. If no one tells you, how are you supposed to know?
Some people just arn't as observant (at least starting at in kendo) as others. It's not insensitive. Insensitive implies a lack of caring, or a belief that it's not important.

Sorry, but some of us just really arn't good at being aware of our surroundings (so hence don't even think or notice when other people do stuff. This isn't Japan so we arn't used to just watching and then doing...we're used to people telling it to us explicitly), and it has nothing to do with a lack of caring.


Not only in the Dojo but in the real life too if an adult didn't pay attention to his or her surrounding, we call him or her arrogant and stupid. If you don't pay attention to your surrounding, you endanger yourself and people arround you if something happen. In my field of work construction, not paying attention to your surround may lead to an accident and I had seen several fatality ones too. And for you MartialArtsGirl, if you do not change your attitude about your surrounding, please don't come to the dojo or even don't get out of your house, we don't want to be in dangers by being arounding you.


Yeah, you did.

[enkorat]

I think its worth considering that the OP is in a British Iaido dojo, so for those of us that practice in a U.S. Kendo dojo, there are cultural and instructional differences that might be best served by someone with more immediate knowledge of the situation.

As I am a US Kendo practitioner, my input is relatively minimal. However, in my club we did have a similar situation that developed several years ago, and we did end up posting up things on our website http://umich.edu/~umkendo/club.html . However it should be noted that this was done after an explicit correction by our sensei and these rules were developed between the students and the instructors so that everyone knew explicitly what was expected of them. It should also be noted that these are very explicit and detailed rules that address very specific problems that arose during our practice. Issues of "rei" are addressed more on a personal dialogue that never stops happening.

Personally, I don't really care *how* people learn something, whether its by the "passive aggressive worse than Catholic guilt tripping" Japanese way or the American "read the website, do it or don't bother coming back next week" way, just as long as people learn what they're supposed to do.

[Big One]

She said "some of us", if that she means including her, and you think you are one of "us", then too bad.

[b8amack]

I guess it's hard, when English is not your first language. I can't tell if I've been insulted or not.

[batusai.]

[COLOR="Blue"]With lots of new members in our club in recent months, including myself, comments have been made by the senior grades regarding the lack of proper etiquette in the dojo. Everything from answering mobile phones, beginning practise before permission has been given (potentially dangerous), swigging from drinks bottles whilst swaggering around the dojo, 'thunder-clap' hakama sabaki and far worse in my opinion, responding to instruction/correction with "Well, Sensei XXX says its done like this not like that" which I personally find very rude and undermining of seniority. Most of us don't even know how to pass by each other politely etc.

Well, they are new members and we have to expect them to be unfamiliar with the rules of the club. They need to be told the proper etiquette so that they will be much aware of what they are doing. I think this is solely the job of the sensei's to guide the new students. They have to assume their authority to enforce order in the dojo. I'm sure those senior grades when they were new members have behaved likewise as well. If the senior grades members have noticed it, I'm sure the sensei's have also noticed it. Just leave the job to them and I'm sure in due time, everything is going to be in order.

[kanyil]

I travel quite a bit and have trained at different dojos at the same time as well as visited quite a few dojos. I try to follow the following simple rules:

(1) In a dojo, proper etiquette it's what the kancho / resident sensei / the most senior person(s) running the dojo says. When in doubt, ask or shut up and take the most polite approach.

(2) If someone else seems out of line, see rule 1. If nothing's done it might be that the behaviour is not example setting, but tolerated anyways due to existing relationships or other reasons (the dojo in question might be a more relaxed social dojo, for example). When in doubt, ask (only if appropriate) or shut up and take the most polite approach.

(3) When visiting other dojos, remember what's proper depends on the dojo. Some dojos are strict while others are much more relaxed. When visiting another dojo, most visitors should refrain from commenting on what's acceptable unless invited to do so (on anything, including etiquette and kendo). It's not your dojo. See rule 1 and 2. When in doubt, ask or shut up and take the most polite approach.

Do your own kendo. Don't worry so much about others.

[Jonathan]

When the disconnect between your expectations and what is considered acceptable behavior has grown sufficient enough to become a distraction to the training, and the people who are supposed to be in authority are unable or unwilling to address it, there are two possible solutions. Change your expectations, or change your environment. Which course of action is most appropriate is up to you to decide.

I recently left a school as a result of endemic lack of respect that had gone unaddressed. I hope it is the last time I need to do so.

[Big One]

I've never experienced that kind of distraction. Is your expectation too high? Some people are really quite unbearable even for a thing that is ignored by other.

[Jonathan]

In my case, perhaps they were. However, I hold certain convictions strongly, and while I'll respect a given person's decision to run things as they see fit, I don't necessarily have to be party to it.

[Maro]

If you're not in the Sempai group, it's not your place to chase things up. Simple as.

[Jonathan]

And if you are?

[Maro]

And if you are?

You talk to the Sensei privately first.

Were you?

[Jonathan]

Yup. Familiar with the "chain of command". No action taken, so ultimately had to vote with my feet.

Obviously this is a slightly different situation than the original post, but like they say the dojo isn't a democracy. If things are not workable, either they change, you change, or somebody leaves.

[Maro]

That's what I did.

It doesn't matter where you study, if it's not working out, it's unlikely to get better. Besides. I'm doing better now than before and enjoying my training more.

[katana1080]

This may sound sarcastic and off topic but does yawning at a shiai count as disrespectful?

[b8amack]

This may sound sarcastic and off topic but does yawning at a shiai count as disrespectful?

Ha ha, I did this last month during the opening ceremonies. My teammate called me on it, so I think in that case, yes. So embarrassing.