How long should it take for Sho-dan?

[durrell4]

I am sure that many people in this forum have at least sho-dan. It seems that there tends to two trains of thought on Sho-dan. I will use my experience as an example. I took the sho-dan test in Japan after practicing for around four months. I know that is very soon, but I had played Kendo as a child and took a few test at age 9... At any rate, I passed and at that time I was very happy that I was making progress.

Well when I got back to the states I over heard several people complaining that "over in Japan anyone can get sho-dan, but here you have to work for it." Well I felt like all my hard work in Japan was just denigrated. BTW I did not tell them where I got my shodan. Never the less I ask my sensei about this and he said that in Japan most adults are given Sho-dan regardless of their skill level. While in the states it takes at least 3 year to reach sho-dan, because so many people start kendo as an adult. I was wondering if this is typical of most countries outside of Japan?

I would like to hear about others who have similar or very different experiences.

[alexpollijr]

In Brazil, 'talented' people can get it in one to two years of practice beginning in adult age. Most shodans down here are pretty tough fighters because most are direct japanese descedants that start kendo very early but have to wait to test due to age restrictions. But there are not only below-average shodan here but also nidan as well.

I don't think you should worry too much about it, shodan is a beginner grade anyway. Things seem to start to get interesting in the yondan test.

One thing that I do not agree with is the 6 to 2 kyuu tests that exist in some places that does not exist in Japan as far as I know. The first test one should do in kendo is the ikkyu, and it's already easy enough. That looks like easy money to me.

[durrell4]

I agree 100% that the kyu levels/tests are kind of silly. One thing it leads to is people staying in the Kyu levels for years so they can do well in Shiai. I personaly didn't think much of it, as many of the sho-dan who were compalaining we not very good. Now its like water under the brigde, I have taken a few test since that time.

as an aside and maybe an interesting thred later, it seems there are egos and politics in kendo in the states. Is this typical everywhere?

[Kuri]

How long you have been training doesn't necessarily equal ability. Some people can only train once a week, while others can train 5-6 times a week. If both train for a year, who will have progressed more?

I feel that it's true that it's easier to pick up shodan in Japan, but as you said, it's the beginner's level for adults. If you put in the hard work, then you deserve it. Just focus on your training and the next step on the long road of kendo. Maybe they're jealous that you jumped the queue. :eek:

In Australia, people have to progress through the kyu grades. Gradings are spaced out at 6 month intervals, so if you continuously train, then shodan can be had in 3-4 years.

[Achilles]

In Korean kumdo sho-dan is extremely coveted and equally difficult to attain. When I first joined my dojang, I held an AUSKF sho-dan. My sabomnim busted me down to 3-khup (kyu) and I was told that at my present skill level, I could make sho-dan in 4 years if I continued to practice hard.

Must of the dan-ranked players in my dojang are in their 30's-40's (and have been playing most of their lives). A few are in their 20's, but they are exceptional (one of them was a kumdo major in college in Korea).

[mingshi]

We're the amatuer kendoka!

Durrell got his Shodan in 4 months. I suppose that's daily practice over there? Maybe even Asa-keiko and Goodnight-keiko? Yes. Things are different if you've been exposed to Kendo/Martial Arts in an early age. At least you'll have the physical ablilty and psychological mind set. (I mean you won't go like, "hehehe, what's this bamboo stick hitting people in funny dress called?") Aaaand especially your own dad is telling you to do 100 suburi every day at the age of 4...

The "direct Japanese descedants" theory is very very odd to me. Say, for example, in Brazil (sorry Alex :P)... there's 50,000 practising Kendo (may be more, I don't know). Why shouldn't there be a single direct Brazillian descedant good enough to represent their own country, and fight in WKC? It's getting like, "Hey, I'm not good enough in Japan, but here in Brazil I'm on Top!".

Same odd-ness apply to the Japan Football League. What's that Alex (another Brazillian with the same name :p) doing?? Isn't there a single Japanese better than him??

" One thing it leads to is people staying in the Kyu levels for years so they can do well in Shiai."
What is that? I thought you can only do Shiai well if they've more Shiai for people to practice with!! Dodgy Kendo Association over there is probably making a little bit more money for those who wouldn't stay long.

Over here in my club, I know many who stayed in ikkyu for 10 years, some in shodan for 10 years, some nidan for 10 years, some sandan for 10 years, etc. etc. It would be laughable for Japanese. But they all say, "Who cares?" Strange philosophy.

[cklin]

Mingshi -- but that's precisely my way of thinking: "who cares?"

Does a menjo really validate one's skill? Skill level is pretty apparent the moment you see somebody strike men.

I'm with alex in thinking that shinsa have a lot to do w/ making money/politics. It's kind of annoying, to say the least.

I suppose for some people, it's motivating to take exams, but for me, it's enough that I know my own level.

[kendokamax]

I'm getting my shodan this december, it will be a little more than 2 years that i have been practicing kendo. I have been practicing 3 times a week during these 2 years, missing less than 5 practices.

I started kendo at 19 years old.

so for me.....let's say after 1:30 h per practice X 2 years X 50 weeks X 3 time per week. .around a bit more than 450 hours of kendo.

[alexpollijr]

Ming Ming ...

It's not exactly like that, the thing about being son of japanese parents.

Let's take E. Onaka from the Braziliam team. His father is a sixth dan senior japanese kendoka. They live in the countryside, in a community of descendants who toil the soil to earn their livings. His father taight kendo to him since he was very very young, in a dojo with many other elder sensei. Every day, every night, kendo renshu. So, it's not just about having a japanese surname, it's about being immersed on it since his birth.

There is no such thing as 'native brazilians'. These were the indians and the portuguese and spanish wiped them out very early in history. There are italians, germans, chinese, so and so.Kendo is not a part of these cultures, therefore most of the time you'll get exposed to it the late puberty at best, and you won't have to buy all that funny and expensive gear that japanese get for free down here, due to donations.

The whole point of this is: I, being italian, could cook lasagna and all kinds of pasta since I was a child. Ernesto Onaka, could do katsugi waza with about the same age. So, I cook some killer food but he is part of the national kendo team, mind you.



PS. I secretly hate Yoda because he fought me in the last Braz. Champ. and he won by oji do. The next person who tells me that being tall is an advantage in kendo...

[Will]

Sometimes sensei's don't want people to get shodan too early too... B/c once you get shodan you start "experimenting" in kendo, (jodan, tsuki, etc) and that takes away from the true essence of kendo...I know that's why my sensei doesn't want me to move up the ranks too fast!

[durrell4]

Rank is not a good measure of skill, but the shiai is broken down by rank. There is one exception in Canada they one tourny that is by age. Last time I went I meet my sensei in the semi-finals. He came over before the match and said I should do my best and forget who he was. Needless to say I lost :( but such is life.

The point is that as long as we break down shiai by rank the there is alway going to be those that know they can not compete in the dan levels and they stay in the kyu level to win.

[Will]

Originally posted by durrell4
...there is alway going to be those that know they can not compete in the dan levels and they stay in the kyu level to win.

Everyone from Northern California, all i have to say is KB! KB!


KB=Korean Bus

[Achilles]

Will, what does "Korean Bus" mean?

[durrell4]

Because of the nature of the forum, and the fact that it is possible that folk in your area could read this. I would suggest we not name names. There are a few examples in the Northwest as well, I am sure that they know who they are.

BTW more related to the what rank do you hold thread not this one. Achilles, are you back to Sho-dan in Kumdo? You said before that you were demoted from Sho-dan to 3-kyu. How often do you get a chance to test in Kumdo? Do you have to wait a predetermined lenght of time before Sho-dan?

[Achilles]

Durrell,

I'm glad you asked. No. One of my senior students said if I worked hard I could make 1-dan in 4 years. So I guess that's an indication.

Belt testing seems to occur fairly frequently at my dojang. I want to say 4 times a year (roughly) and the tests occur in house (rather than at large tournaments, as seems to be the case in Japanese kendo).

I don't know about waiting predetermined lengths of time. It seems that you can take the test at any time, but you might not be up to it.

All of the dan ranked members of the dojang speak of the dan belt test in hushed tones. It's supposed to be one of the most challenging experiences of a lifetime. I don't know all the details, but I do know it consists of 1:30 second - 2:00 minute sessions of ai-kakari-geiko with *SIX* dan ranked members in a ROW, the last of whom is the sabomnim (sensei) himself (and he takes you right to the hoop). This is IMMEDIATELY followed by 1,000 hayai-suburi. All of this has to be done without collapsing, vomiting or losing composure.

Can you even imagine? Sometimes I think I'm being hoodwinked. I can't imagine possibly rising to that bar. But then I see our dan members fight and I begin to believe.

You have to understand that my dojang takes kumdo to a professional level. I've only attended two taikais with these guys. At the GNEUSKF Championships in Cleveland, we swept the mudansha division, took 2nd and 3rd in shodan-nidan division, 3rd in sandan and above and won the teams trophy. At the recent Annapolis Taikai, we took 2nd and 3rd in the mudansha and swept the shodan-nidan. It makes me tremendously proud to be part of such a team. Caveat: I *know* winning at shiai isn't very important to most of you, but to me, it's a real yardstick of skill at this game.

[JSchmidt]

Hmmm?..So the kumdo shodan test is more a stamina test than a skill test?.

[alexpollijr]

A 100% judging by what Achilles says.
Before drawing any conclusions, I'd like to hear the korean people of the forum community speak about the subject.

[Jklak]

Why the rush? Does anybody worry about his or her own ripeness to get shodan? I think that, like in men strike, people should know right moment to graduate shodan.

[David J]

Once again, Jklak and cklin with the wise words....

There is a certain interest though, you have to admit it :D

When I see beautiful Kendo being done, and find they are (say) 6th dan, and I myself would love to play that well, you cant help but do the maths and think "ok, maybe when I've been doing Kendo for X years..."

As I'm new to this I cant say I have much of a feel for the difference in style/skill between ikkyu and shodan ...and then in comes the difficulties noted above, that one country's shodan is another's 3 khup.

I do want to attain those grades, but I guess I'm itching to be at nidan / sandan / whatever level, rather than it being a status thing (I may be kidding myself just a little here :D)

[kendo_chick]

I am also going to try for my shodan this December in Toronto. I have been practising for around a year but have been exposed to kendo for 2 years and 4 months. I started kendo almost right away in bogu because I had watched for so long and was graded 6 months later to Ikkyu.

I think that the waiting period between any grades should depend on the individual and the area that you live. Living in eastern Canada there are only two gradings a year at the most so the wait between Ikkyu and Shodan is at least 6 months to a year (unless of course you want to spend the money to go across Canada to get graded).

[lewis]

The Americans haven't said it directly yet, but there is a certain 'stereotype' attached to the phrase 'black belt' in popular culture that is directly opposite to the japanese meaning of Shodan. Many people in the US get their black belt and feel that they have been-there-done-that and move on.

The feeling I have gotten in the various dojos I have practiced is that obtaining your shodan (usually in around 3 years) is essentially a test to see if you are really committted to doing kendo. Personally, I thinks this sets kendo apart from the 'instant-grandmaster stripmall martial arts' that are so common here.

I am with jklak and clkin. I don't care what my grade is, as long as I am challenging myself and improving. The only reason I would test at all is if I really wanted to enter a tournament, so that I could be in the right bracket.

[durrell4]

Lewis et al.

I found out that the AUSKF follows the IKF guidlines. In principle there is a six month waiting period between each Kyu test followed by a year between each dan. so from sho-dan to ni-dan is one year and between 2 and 3-dan is two years and so on. I belive that you have to start in the US at least at 6-kyu

6-5, 5-4, 4-3, 3-2, 2-1, 1-shodan is 3 years if you always pass.

[Achilles]

It's not ONLY a stamina test. Part of a measure of skill is seeing how you perform when you are exhausted. A skilled fencer is able to control his breathing and conserve energy in a rigorous match. All of this is measured.

[cklin]

David J -- I don't think I'm particularly wise.

You bring up an interesting point when you say you sometimes think "in X years, I can be at so-and-so a level."

I think this is kind of a odd way of thinking about kendo. There is great variation in what a particular "level" means, whatever your basis for judgement. It's not like a video game where you rack up so many points and get a power-up, right?

So to me, it makes no sense to think about dan in kendo. If the end goal is "to improve", then just practice. Why waste time measuring what you can or can't do? Stranger still, why ask for someone else's validation?

Of course, there's the argument that exams give people concrete goals to work towards in their training. For some people, that is a good motivator, as I mentioned before. But for me, I think part of the fun of kendo is figuring out for yourself what your own goals are...

For example, sometimes I say to myself, "for the next two months in jigeiko, I will hit nothing but men." Then I practice all different types of men -- big men, small men, harai men, tsuriage men, nuki men, yoko men (when I get cocky), katsugi men... you get the idea. And at the end of the two months I think about it and try to figure out whether I improved my men strike at all. Usually, I haven't. But I think that's still more rewarding than someone telling me I can hit men fair-to-middling with a shodan menjo.

Well, that's just my take on it. Dan is just a necessary evil.

[JSchmidt]

Gradings are more than anything, a proof of progress.
Despite all the talk (not necessarily on here) about how grades are not important, they *are* an important pat on the shoulder, saying 'well done'. Ever noticed how people who comes back fom grading are standing taller, fighting quicker and better than they were just before the grading?. (Luckily it only lasts a couple of weeks before they come back down again:D).


Jakob

[David J]

Originally posted by cklin
David J -- I don't think I'm particularly wise.

You bring up an interesting point when you say you sometimes think "in X years, I can be at so-and-so a level."

I think this is kind of a odd way of thinking about kendo. .

Fair enough. I'm sure we all have our own, slightly skewed way of looking at things, I'm sure I'm no different ;)

But to be (hopefully) a little clearer - for me its kinda like learning a musical instrument. You hear a great musician, or maybe even a skilled friend and think "wow, I want to play like that someday", so you start. You enjoy playing, you enjoy learning, but with a view that when you started you wanted to be able to play a particular piece, or with a certain degree of fluidity, so you keep going. Maybe you never get there, it doesnt really matter - the goal is not the goal, the path is the goal.

I'm loving Kendo at my own, very limited, level. But I shall always remember the time I saw Jeff Humm fence Geoff Salmon (both 6th dan I believe). I honestly had shivers running up and down my spine. That memory inspires me to push my skill to the highest I can manage. That's where my path leads, but I'm looking at the ground I'm standing on now. But I do think it helps to pass a few markers along the way to remind you how far you've come.

<rei>

Dave

[Matthew Lagden]

I agree, while Grading etc is not the be-all and end-all (and one of the things I like about Kendo is the emphasis on practise and self development, as opposed to the correspondence course black belt ethos of some martial arts) I do want to Grade, and I do relish the thought of competing and Grading with Kendoka from other clubs, if only to provide some external validation to my internal sense of improvement.

[cklin]

David J -- seems like I'm the one with the odd way of thinking about kendo... :)

[lewis]

Grading has one important effect in our dojo; it forces people to work on their kata. It seems that many of the lower grade students would never practice kata if it weren't required for grading.

[mingshi]

Practical use of being graded:-

1) Be a Shinpan (3dan+?)
2) Be local KA's committee member
3) Start your own dojo
4) Fight in the national? (I only know that in All Japan Kendo Championsion, men= 4-7 dan, women= 2-6dan)
5) Show off :p

David J, you mentioned the musical instrument situation... And the main reason to be Grade 8+ in piano is A) be a teacher and earn $$; B) have your solo performance/ be in national orchestra etc. political stuff. People/rock star playing guitar can be self-satisfactory without having any grades. I don't know if it can be the same in Kendo.
***
Honestly I think that people who stay in low grades for 10 years, say, for ikkyu ONLY BECAUSE they can enter that ikkyu competition.... are total cowards!! They should commit seppuku if they didn't win!
:mad:

[durrell4]

from Mingshi "Honestly I think that people who stay in low grades for 10 years, say, for ikkyu ONLY BECAUSE they can enter that ikkyu competition.... are total cowards!! They should commit seppuku if they didn't win!"

I could not agree more. I see this over and over. We need some pseudo-standard for rank or we should switch to age. If in Kumdo 1-kyu is similar to 2-Dan then the Kumdo iku should enter the kendo dan division. Who care's if you win, it should be how you win. I agree with Mingshi and Lewis on this, Rank is a motivation tool. It is good for the dojo it pushes people to be better. If you pass 4-dan you don't suddenly get better, you try harder to be a good 4-dan.

just 2 cents

[kendokamax]

People staying in kyu category for years.

I just think it's stupid since they will never have the chance to face better oponnents, thus they will improve slowly thinking they are good enough.

Still, not everyone does kendo to get real good at it. For some people it's more a hobby than anything else, so I can understand them not to go in some far places to get the grade they should take.

...
Winning in kyu?

I strongly disagree with people who stay years in kyu category with the only motivation of winning the competitions. You really can't learn as much when you win easely in competitions. When you get your ass kicked after 20 sec of shiai and you had a 8 hours drive to go at this tournament...(happened quite a few time to me !)..it's at that moment that you can realize bad things about your kendo. When you win it's much harder to see what is wrong...

but eh everyone can do whatever they want as long as they enjoy it.

....

Taking gradings.

My sensei tells us quite a few time that when you get a grade you don't really get the grade you have on your certificate..Having that paper that tells you that you are 1st dan or whatever is just the start. At that moment you have to prove(validate) with sincerity the grade your federation gave you.

I believe you always have to prove the grade you have, by playing kendo! not by showing some stupid paper.

...happy kendo....

[Achilles]

Durrel,

That is why I bridled at Will's obnoxious (and racist, if I understand him right) "Korean bus" comment.

Our kyu-grade members *do* enter the dan divisions in tournaments and *still* win. The guy who won first place in Cleveland's shodan division was a 3-kyu from my dojang. At Annapolis, the 1st and 3rd place winners in the shodan-nidan division were kyu-ranked members of my dojang.

People refuse to give kumdo practioners due credit. It's so much easier to spit venom and simply say that we're cheating and playing games with ranks instead of simply being charitable and simply stating the truth: We're committed, we train hard, and we're good at kumdo.

Sometimes I think some people should spend less time trying to develop their character through kendo and more time through other methods. Obviously the kendo isn't working.

[kendokamax]

korean dojo in north america are usualy always very strong in competition. There is that new kumdo dojo in toronto , Jungko. One of their guy won the 1st-2 dan division in waterloo tournament. They were super nice people and had beautifull kumdo/kendo.

I also don't understand why people would complain about the fact that kumdo is slighty different. If you really are into kendo, you should know that you can learn a lot from korean and japanese kendo. We are all individuals , we really are the one choosing how our kendo looks (this is very true in North America), so we have to learn from every possible sources.

Anyway I'm so off topic now (as always)

......

yo I have notice something: at first, people that think kendo is all about spirit usualy don't go very far and quit... I think it will make you stronger mentaly only if you try to surpass yourself physicaly...after all it is martial art.

....

I'm just a naive ikkyu with only 2 years of experience. I havent seen much kendo in my life, but I can write a lot of b*llsh*t all the time lol i'm amazed...what is it going to be in 20 years?

[deanoclark]

Personally, I am driven not by a desire to grade, but by a desire to improve. I have been training for over 12 months and will go for my first grading next month.

Obviously, this is not what drives me. Neither am I fuelled by a desire to lurk in the kyu divisions of takai. What does beating people who have less experience than you prove? Only when you beat people who are better than you can you truly pat yourself on the back.

I am driven by a desire to do my best kendo every time, and for that to be better every day. I will push myself in practise to get that one, clean cut on my sensei when he does not want to give it to me. I practise suburi in the hope that one day when I am training with my sempai, I will instinctively cut when needed, and get that point.

I will practise kendo for the rest of my long life, and at some stages, people will give me pieces of paper that say i have reached a certain level. But my best memories will be of those 'sen-no-sen' (sp?) moments when a beautiful cut just appears from nowhere without thinking about it.

[KhawMengLee]

Sometimes I think some people should spend less time trying to develop their character through kendo and more time through other methods. Obviously the kendo isn't working.
You said you did kendo before, why did you quit?

One thing that kendo has done for my character is that it teaches me not to quit.


Our kyu-grade members *do* enter the dan divisions in tournaments and *still* win. The guy who won first place in Cleveland's shodan division was a 3-kyu from my dojang. At Annapolis, the 1st and 3rd place winners in the shodan-nidan division were kyu-ranked members of my dojang.

We had a korean kumdo fighter(nidan) in our dojo and he was a human dynamo. I have respect for all who enter and practice our art. Please stop turning this into a Kumdo vs Kendo post.

Meng

[ben]

Asking different people over the years I've found a remarkable amount of consistency amongst different martial arts for three years as being the average time to reach 1 dan. As someone said above for the US, so it is in Australia: one kyu every six months.

There is a complementary idea in Japan that three years is the minimum amount of time one should devote to an activity before deciding whether one is really suited to it or not. The thinking is that only after detailed study can one have enough information to make an informed decision either way. So 1 dan is really a kind of starting point.

Once upon a time it was usual that Aussie high school exchange students would come back from 12 months in Japan with their 1 dan. I'm not sure if this still happens...

Personally I don't have any trouble with people taking grades or not taking grades, so long as their reasons for doing either aren't to do with ego.

b


BTW Achilles: your dojo's grading exam sounds like a variation of the Kyokushin Karate hyakunin kumite, which itself was taken from Yamaoka Tesshu's Shumpukan grading for menkyo (I think this is correct although for the life of me I can't remember what the actual test was called). Not entirely a bad thing...

[durrell4]

I have to agree with Achilles and Ming. This discussion is about rank the importance or lack there of. It is not a forum for we kendo/kumdo better than kumdo/kendo. I don't know enough to comment on Kumdo, in our region we just don't have many Kumdo players, but we do have several dojos the train for shiai and I enjoy playing with everyone.

My thoughts are simple bring your best game and challenge yourself by playing with the best players you can (Kumdo/Kendo).

Anyway I think a new thread that concentrates on what rank means to you would be more informative more informative.

D-

[Will]

Originally posted by Achilles

That is why I bridled at Will's obnoxious (and racist, if I understand him right) "Korean bus" comment.


HEY HEY HEY! I'm korean! and man...a 6'2 or 3 korean is a BUS! especially if he gets his points in kyu competition by pushing people out. That's why we call him KB, he's korean, he's big, and he steam rolls over everyone!

[Jklak]

Search of ippon shobu with sutemi. :D

Why are grading in kendo? Is it there that you can think that some your fellows are lower or higher rank than you are? :rolleyes:

Why are shiai in kendo? Is it there that kendoka could win his or her fellow or is it just element of keiko where you learn different things than normal keiko?

What makes people weak? Adtitude that other people’s doings or not doings hurt them. – Carlos.Castaneda –

I just try to focus to do my best in keiko, shiai and grading. Sometimes I failure. It happens but never give up. I gird myself and try to give one’s best.

Last time I went to grading I pass but I did not satisfied myself with my presentation. So this summer I allow grading to rest because I did not feel that I am ready for this. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t afraid to get failed in grading. I just want search myself and find that I am ready.

[Achilles]

C'mon Will. I know *lots* of Japanese and white fencers who get their points by pushing people out of bounds. It's not like Koreans are genetically predisposed to be bigger than anyone else. Just make sure that when you make a comment like that you EXPLAIN what you mean. Otherwise you leave it open to the imagination.

KhawMengLee. I did *not* quit kendo. I simply joined a kumdo dojang. I still practice with my old club and other Japanese dojos fairly regularly. I've never been a quitter. I went to Cleveland, I fought with kumdo players, and I decided that their style was better for me.

I am *not* turning this into a kumdo vs. kendo post. If people are going to make comments that insinuate that Korean players are "buses" that push people out of bounds, or deliberately supress ranking as a scheme to win tournament divisions, then *somebody* who actually *knows* kumdo from the inside has an obligation to stand up and set the record straight.

If you think I'm going to sit on my hands while people bad mouth a tradition that I am part of, and people who I love. The kumdo vs. kendo angle *is* relevant here, because we are discussing the relative period of time it takes to achieve ranking.

[Jerry Wellbrock]

Just something to think about......I have been practicing karate for over 30 years and the question often comes up.....What is the best style of karate?.....I have heard this response.....Have someone put a blind fold on you and pick individuals from several different styles of karate....first let the Shotokan student hit you....then let the Goju-ryu student hit you.....then the Chito-ryu student hit you and so on.....now can you tell which student from which style hit you first and second and so on....of course you can not tell.....In an actual sword fight there where only three possible outcomes....you killed your opponent.....you were killed by your opponent or you both were mortally wounded.....not very good odds at survival....do you really think it was important what style he/she was......I don't believe that rank or style (kendo/kumdo) is important.....in the end......it is survival....or scoring.....that matters.....just train....."Victory goes to those who are willing to pay the price.".....Sun Tsu

[JSchmidt]

Achilles, he was referring to a specific korean player....

Jakob

[John W]

Just a different point of view on this one.

I have read throughout this thread about "beating " other kendoists and "getting the point" etc.. I think some people should remember that most martial arts teach us somewhere along the line that to beat or master yourself is better than beating others. That is to hold back on ego, your desires and restrain yourself from bad behaviour etc.

I beleive that as you move up in the ranks you should hopefully become more humble towards others esp lower ranks and learn to appreciate and respect others. I would much rather obtain this attitude than win every possible shiai competition in the world.

[amatsuda]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Achilles
[B]Durrel,

That is why I bridled at Will's obnoxious (and racist, if I understand him right) "Korean bus" comment.

Achilles:

No. No. No...I can assure you that he's not making a racist, derogatory or discriminatory comment...

The people Will are talking about are built like a buses. Actually, they are built more like a monster truck...Tall, wide, powerful and heavy...

One guy is 6' 3" and 240 lbs. I feel like a little kid standing next to this guy....He looks like he has football pads on wearing a t-shirt.

Another guy is 5' 10" 230 lbs (i.e. 2 Shima's). I felt small when I came across him shopping for a suit and he was looking at size 48 suits and I was searching for a size 44 suit.

These guys are built solid; hence the bus comment....


amatsuda

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Achilles
Our kyu-grade members *do* enter the dan divisions in tournaments and *still* win. The guy who won first place in Cleveland's shodan division was a 3-kyu from my dojang. At Annapolis, the 1st and 3rd place winners in the shodan-nidan division were kyu-ranked members of my dojang.

Man, just as having a Dan doesn't mean anything, winning tournaments does not mean their Kendo is better than the rest.

In the last few years of AJKF individuals, you can always see some 4th Dan winning against some 7th Dan.

Last year's chief Shinpan in the finals is Sumi Masatake Sensei, 8th Dan. Still, you've never seen him winning the AJKF individuals.

And also you know the 6-times AJKF individuals champion Miyasaki Masahiro, now 7th Dan? He didn't pass all his gradings at the first time.

All these doesn't mean their Kendo is bad at all. Grading and Tournaments are not the only thing in Kendo!

[kendokamax]

I heard that miyazaki failed shodan 3 times?

That's so funny. He must have had caracter to continue on.

[KhawMengLee]

Woohoo!!!

I passed my first grading! I just passed 6 kyu and the Panel of Judges also awarded me 5 kyu. Yes...I know it's only the first kyu but it was also my first grading.

Next is 4 kyu....sigh

I was damn nervous...anyone else remember their first grading?

PEACE(fully happy:D )

MENG

[reicheru]

"Grading has one important effect in our dojo; it forces people to work on their kata. It seems that many of the lower grade students would never practice kata if it weren't required for grading." (Lewis)

I personally love kata and feel I get a lot out of practicing them. When I first started kendo, almost every Saturday's practice was devoted to kata. That eventually changed, and kata seemed to be all but dropped. I don't know, maybe they've made a comeback (ckl?)

At my dojo here in Japan, I practice primarily with junior high school and elementary school kids. The first 8 months or so that I was here, I didn't see any sign of kata practice. Then suddenly, about a month or two before the dan shinsa that several of us were signed up for, out came the bokken. Shinsa completed, the kata have again, sadly, disappeared. I just got back from a month away, and when I go back to practices I'm intending to ask the sensei if they can continue to instruct me in kata from time to time.

Back to the topic -- I was really resistant to testing for shodan (which I did about 6 weeks ago, after practicing kendo off and on for 2-3 years in the states and about 9 months in Japan). Partly that was because I feared taking the logistics of taking the test in Hokkaido, where I don't speak the language well and often have no idea what's going on, but mostly it was just because I didn't think it was necessary. I know that I've improved based on my performance and understanding of kendo; I didn't see why I should have to spend a bunch of money to have a panel of sensei tell me that I've improved. I ultimately agreed to test largely because I didn't want to let down my sensei. But one of the aspects of kendo that I like the most is that, unlike karate, you don't wear a colored belt proclaiming how good you are; instead, you have to prove yourself each time you enter the dojo. Yes, now I can technically say that I'm a shodan, but there are many days when I perform like an ikkyu or lower, and there have been occassions (albeit not many) where I have scored off someone with a higher dan rank...

Rachel

[Confound]

I agree with the kata and grading comments lewis made quite some time ago, (i've been on vacation, sorry about the lag.)

Maybe there's some kind of psychology at work in the dan gradings, they are a way to force people to study kata? who knows. however, i like kata, and when it gets to right around grading time, even though i'm not going to the exam, an opportunity to practice kata is appreciated.

c

[Kenshi]

Tell me if I am off-track here, but ...

Whether people like it or not its important to grade if you want to at some time teach or hold a position of responsibility within your respective associations.

You might be the best kendoka in the world, but without travelling the shoden shiken route it becomes MUCH more difficult to be in your national squad, be your countries technical director, shimpan national taikai, etc etc etc. i.e. you are less likely to be heard seriously (I am sure you get my gist).

KDCs have a lower "limit" but that will naturally change as the countries kendo population increases.

Of-course, you could just do kendo by yourself in your dojo.

I dont think I am being cynical here, its just there is - for better or worse - a heirarchy (spelling!?).

Thoughts?

[ben]

I think not grading is the easy way out. Then you never have to put yourself on the line and be 'rated' by your peers.

b

[James]

I think the process of grading is healthy, as ben says - putting ourselves on the line.

To me it's self-evident that a lot of people would pass their gradings if at the time they just did their normal dojo kendo; but they freeze or their kendo falls over in some way under the pressure of a grading.
In grading we are confronting something outside our normal dojo comfort zone,and that has to be valuable. If we are doing kendo to improve ourselves at all, testing should go without saying. Same goes for shiais.

Also, pretty much as George says, we do live in a hierarchy in the real world where we have to earn our status, so why should it be different in kendo?

I understand why people say the piece of paper (Menjo) is not important to them as validation of their kendo, but I don't understand people that want to shun such a valuable experience.

j

[taiwnezboi]

"Hmmm?..So the kumdo shodan test is more a stamina test than a skill test?."

besides all of the endurance stuff you have to perform kata and put out a candle with your sword =P

[Strider]

Since you are a Shodan Kendo and a Sankyu Kumdo, at what skill level do you compete in Kendo tournaments? To compete against players at least three ranks below you skill level does not hold much promise of self improvement or a sense of true accomplishment. But perhaps you are restricted from the Dan ranks until you complete ShoDan in Kumdo. An interesting situation, indeed.

[taiwnezboi]

it doesn't matter.. competing against our 3rd, 2nd, and 1st kyus is the same as competing against shodans.. this is especially true on the East coast where we are located..

[Strider]

I am suprised that you equate a Shodan to a Sankyu. The Shodans in your club may not share your point of view. The point of my prior comment was that a Shodan competing against unranked students is a hollow victory for the Shodan and not much of a lesson for either. It is likely to be a brief, one-sided match that reinforces the idea that the young student has much to learn - something not unexpected. The Shodan will not learn anything from such a match. If the goal is to collect trophies for the dojo, well, that is certainly one point of view. If the goal is to learn by competing against better players (that is how we improve), then the trophy case may not be as full at the moment, but hopefully will overflow later on.

[taiwnezboi]

hMm.. maybe you took my comments the wrong way.. I didn't mean to say that the 3,2, and 1 kyus at my school were as good as the black belts at my school.. I meant that the 1-3 kyus at my school are equivalent to shodan from other schools.. it takes about 2 years to get 3rd kyu at my school.. and it only takes 1 year to get shodan at some other schools.. not every school of course but there are a lot of them that give out shodan after 1 year.. anyways, because the 3rd kyus have been training for longer than some shodans from other schools, our 3rd kyus are equivalent to their shodans..

[taiwnezboi]

oh by the way.. Achilles is the one who is shodan and 3-kyu.. not me.. I've been taking Kumdo for a little over a year now and I'm blue belt.. which equivalates to somewhere between 5th and 4th kyu..

[Strider]

Thank you. Yes, my original comment was in response to comments made by Achilles. His/her remarks seemed very full of emotion.

The Southeast USKF has apparently adopted an "unwritten" rule that Shodan candidates must have two to five years of experience before they can reach Dan ranks. This does not follow USKF published criteria, but is nontheless being enforced. Can you give more information about the Kumdo Shodan test? The putting out the candle seemed pretty cool. I do not understand the Kroean terms, but I imagine there are 1,000 times swing (big swing?). Are they done in sets of 100?

[durrell4]

As I said before it takes three years based on the AUSKF guide lines to reach sho-dan. I know there seems to be some confusion of is Sho in Kumdo the same as Sho-dan in Kendo. But that is a very subjective view. I personally know pleanty of Sho-dans (in kendo) who could take out the average yon-dan. Your skill is based on other criteria not rank. This thred was asking the question about how long it should take not what is better Kendo or Kumdo.

I am a interested in how many kendo/kumdo players are in the Reston, VA area?

[toreisu]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kendokamax

Taking gradings.

My sensei tells us quite a few time that when you get a grade you don't really get the grade you have on your certificate..Having that paper that tells you that you are 1st dan or whatever is just the start. At that moment you have to prove(validate) with sincerity the grade your federation gave you.

I believe you always have to prove the grade you have, by playing kendo! not by showing some stupid paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree. My sensei explained dan ranking to me in the same way. I hadn't studied kendo long enough, in my opinion, when I tested for shodan. Essentially - like REICHERU explains in her posting - I agreed to take the test because my sensei told me I should (had to), and I didn't want t let him down. It didn't feel right to tell him I didn't think I was ready, when he - experienced kendoka - said I was. Who am I to argue, right?

I felt better about it when, after I passed, he explained that getting shodan was more a promise to work to achieve the level of ability represented by "shodan," not a declaration that I had already mastered the skills required to be a shodan. It's less daunting to think of it this way - for those who are hesitant to test for the next level (I wish he'd explained this to me BEFORE I'd tested, but...). And it's more humbling - for those who look at achieving dan levels in the same way that "strip mall martial art centers" tend to view belt levels in karate etc.

[taiwnezboi]

Strider: for the Kumdo shodan test.. I'm not sure about all of the details.. but I know that you need to perform the various skills and a bunch of kata... then you put out a candle with your sword.. you get 3 tries to do it.. then you do the stuff that Achilles said.. sparring with the line of black belts.. last one is Sabunim.. 1000 swings is one-motions.. where you "bounce" back and forth.. don't really know how to explain it but I'm sure there is something like that in Kendo..

durrell4: sorry if I put off the impression that Kumdo was "better" than Kendo.. I didn't mean that at all.. besides.. with the exception of a few small differences they're basically the same thing to me.. on the East coast.. there aren't that many Kendo/Kumdo school to my knowledge.. and there are a lot of them who give out shodan after only a year.. there are people competing in shodan division who look like 4th kyus or worse.. as for skill level and rank.. there are exceptional people who can take out yondans when they're shodan.. but I think that generally the higher belt should win.. a shodan told me that when I reach red belt (3rd-1st kyu) if I lose to lower belts it's shameful.. and when I'm black belt.. if I lose to red belts then there is something wrong with the way I'm practicing or with my form.. it happened to him so he told me from experience...

as for Kumdo/Kendo players in Reston, VA.. not many.. my Kumdo school is located in Fairfax, VA.. and people in the Washington Metropolitan area go to my school.. we also have a school in Maryland... the only other school in our area that I know of is at George Mason University.. it's a Kendo club.. my cousin's boyfriend used to go there.. there also used to be another school but it closed...

[cklin]

What is all this talk about belts? Belts are a silly invention to motivate little kids. Like jelly beans and stickers in grade school.
Hollywood has put this stupid idea in people's heads that having a "black belt" means you're Mr. Miyagi.

Kendo has not belts.


Sorry to say, but this thread is getting bovine.

People place too much emphasis on rank in general and then they put WAY too much emphasis on getting shodan. "Sho" means "seminal" and "dan" means "stage". Having shodan means you're just a beginner.

And honestly, if you take into consideration the whole spectrum of skill in kendo, dissecting beginner grades into kyu is kind of laughable. Again, the intention of the kyu rankings are for motivating little kids (in Japan where they start really young).

[John W]

Hmmmm.....

Well I think grades are important in kendo and all other martial
arts. It is important to have a heirarchy in such things when there
is possible physical danger to other people.

If a grade tells others around you that you are of a particular level of skill and have a good grasp of basics and other knowledge of your art then I support it.:wink:

[mingshi]

Cklin: Belts are a silly invention to motivate little kids.

Well, to a certain extend. May be that can be a reason not to have belts, but don't forget the less kid-oriented Aikido also has kyu/color-belt grading system. You may like to read an article on belt tradition of Japanese MA by Don Cunningham:

Belt colors and ranking tradition (http://www.concentric.net/~Budokai/articles/belts.htm)

The modern Dan/grading system was evoled from "licensing" in Koryu, as described in the article...Shoden > Chuden > Okuden > Menkyo > Menkyo Kaiden (Just read it!!!)

As for Kumdo Shodan... Is it really an official grading requirement for Shodan to put out a candle flame? Can any Korean out there confirm that? What's the point? A sword can do a better than that (i.e. I can understand if Tameshigiri was ever a grading requirement). I came across the following site... and everything seems like another Instituto Niten to me (please scroll down the middle for a low-res photo of candle light keiko):confused: WHY??

Saurabi Swordmanship Academy (http://www.gumdo.or.kr/english/index.html)

[alexpollijr]

2 subjects

BELTS : I agree 100% that coloured belts are for kids and, to a certain extent, for westerners. There's little need for a vulgar display of power. Grades are nice for the reasons John has mentioned. But they are definetely not a 'yardstick of skill' . ANd, of course, shodan and nidan are beginner's grades. The stuff starts to get interesting in the sandan shinsa. I believe that the first one to come with the kyu/dan grading system was Jigoro Kano. I don't know if he got the idea from koryu. The shoden/chuden/okuden is still used today but to grade the iai waza, not the student. Iai, as we all know, uses kyu/dan as well.

SHODAN in KUMDO : I keep my position that kumdo and kendo are exactly the same thing. I've seen kumdo championships and kendo champs and they're pretty much the same to me. Therefore, I strongly doubt this 'candle' stuff. Of what use it to put a damn candle our with a shinai? I can't belive that you'd use a katana for that, since korean swords are indeed different from the japanese sword.

[taiwnezboi]

forgot to say.. you don't put out the candle with the shinai.. you put it out with either a real or plastic katana.. and what's the big objection to doing that? it's just part of the test for shodan for our school.. I'm not positive that you fail if you don't put out the candle.. but that's just what I was told..

[Strider]

I was simply curious to learn more. I am not objecting. The test sounds very interesting. More info please!

[munenmuso]

Well, that's why we don't wear a belt in kendo to avoid the abuse and misuse of ranking. Instead we carry a big stick and hit and hit and hit and hit our opponents to remind them that kendo is a self restraining art not an ego-testing thing where our bloated heads don't fit in the men anymore.Where the one who leads and teaches you to your greatness is not another run-on-the-mill sensei ,wearing those ridiculous black belts typical of other arts, but a true master with overwhelming experience.


_______________

[sminki]

All this shodan talk is good. But let's not forget something here people.

SHODAN IS JUST A BEGINNING!!!

I don't mean to put anyone down, but shodan is shodan. Some of us have presented the shodan test as the most difficult thing in one's lifetime, etc., but shodan is still just a shodan. I'm just a shodan myself, but I'm sure the tests get harder for nidan, sandan, yondan and so forth. I don't know if any of us have seen the National Geographic documenatry on the hachidan (8 dan) test. Less than 1% pass that test each year in all of Japan. The year in which the documentary was made, 6 people passed out of 721.

So let's not forget that shodan is just the beginning. I have been doing kendo for almost 3 years and have just gotten my shodan. When I started, I felt as though shodan was the ultimate thing, the cool "black belt". As I see it now, shodan is NOTHING & I have so much more to learn.

I'm glad people have so much respect for their dojo and the "professional" way that the shodan tests are run and that it is the "most challenging" test in "[peoples'] lifetime". I know HwaRangKwan in Virginia and I know master Chang and I respect him dearly so I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but let's not forget that shodan is only shodan and no more.

Lastly, taiwnezboi, yudansha is DEFINITELY different from most mudansha. I don't think you're correct in saying that sankyu = nikyu = ikkyu = shodan. There is definitely a difference despite some exceptions to people who just haven't taken a promotion test for a long time. Just as shodan is just beginning, it does have its merits.

[ben]

" Cklin: Belts are a silly invention to motivate little kids. Well, to a certain extend. May be that can be a reason not to have belts, but don't forget the less kid-oriented Aikido also has kyu/color-belt grading system."

Actually this is not so in my experience of Japanese aikido, maybe it is in the West. In my experience even beginners there are allowed to wear hakama. And they go from wearing a white belt to hold up their gi trousers, to a black one when they get shodan.

b

BTW - whatever happened to Achilles?

[Gorget-the-Frog]

Originally posted by ben
" ....in my experience of Japanese aikido, maybe it is in the West. In my experience even beginners there are allowed to wear hakama. And they go from wearing a white belt to hold up their gi trousers, to a black one when they get shodan."

From what I've experianced Aikido beginners wear a plain Gi with a white belt. Upon reaching the Dan grade they wear a black belt as well as the hakama.

Gorget the Frog

[Hyaku]

Having sat on a few grading panels I would like to add......

One way to look at it is the award of Shodan is a start. Then again some people are on the way to Nidan when they pass. The thing is regarless of the time you have practiced for is awarded for the stage you have reached and your performance on that day. Sadly you might not be so well practiced and end up fighting someone who is a championship winner and you will look bad even if your ability is average.

As we advance up the grades committment and also contribution to that particular art is taken into account. Therefore in Japan you take Rokudan on the recommendation of the Prefecture. Taking such a grade and having passed you are naturally expected to take on certain responsibilities e.g. taikai/shia. So basicaly foreigners who take grade in Japan who do not live are a seperate entity.

As most of you perhaps know (I will write anyway for the sake of those who have not passed Shodan). Participants are numbered..... and fight the number before you and after. So number 3 fights 2 and 4. Number one fights the last one up or someone might have to stand in but is not judged.

In Japan there are an amazing amount of people that will dissapear after a grading and suddenly turn up a few months before the next.

Rare case scenario... intensive training and some of these people do get through. Sadly the poor guy that had perhaps trained regularly for a year and who gets drawn against an exceptional student is made to look bad and fails.

To me, two years three years etc between gradings means just that, training. But the guidelines are fairly flexible and "will" allow you to reach that next level if you don't put all the time in.

All in all Shodan is a good men strike with Kiken tai ichi. I have seen gradings after intensive 10 times a week practice for a year. Then again someone who was visiting a dojo once every two weeks doing what I can also describe as Elephant Kendo also passing. Then again they wont get any further than shodan!

Its a grading! If you dont get it this time you will be ok the next time if you put in the work.

The only downside that I felt a little was that there was pressure to do nice Kendo all the time. We here so much of these many possible techniques on the forum. But I felt that being able to win easily with that nice clean men uchi was a step forward to the next grade. But in any case with me being bigger if I start to wander around too much instead of moving in straight as a die to challenge and cleaving the guy in two, some Hachidan is going to come up behind me and smack me across the butt or on the legs with a shinai!

Actualy, I do have question. Is the time between gradings in other countrys in line with ZNKR now? I know some years ago that in the UK it was possible to get up the grades in an amazingly short time. ZNKR extended the time period between grades but other countrys did not.

Hyaku

[Kendoka]

A success at a grading exam is a confirmation that your kendo development is on track. A failure gives you the opportunity to review and develop a plan to succeed next time.

A Sensei once said to me after I had failed a dan exam " ..paradoxically, you will learn more from the grading that you fail, than the grading that you pass." At the time I was p off, looking back - he was right!

Hyaku, in Australia we follow the IKF/ZNKR rules. We do however grade adults commencing from 6th kyu, then they are eligible to attempt the next grading in six months. They sometimes can jump one kyu level if the panel agrees that they deserve it.

Then, it is the IKF/ZNKR timing from 1kyu and up.

If one trains regularly with sincerity and succeeds at every grading exam, Sho-dan is achievable after 3 years or so.


Richard