How much seme?

[kuzu70]

At our dojo, I have to stand motodachi alot and have been noticing, when practicing with the kids, they tend to back up alot. I step in, and they flinch and block and sometimes they try an oji-waza. Invariably when kids block, they leave an opening, so I try to hit them there. But lately I have been feeling that this kind of practice is not beneficial for me or for the kid I am practicing with. Mind you, this is only during jikeiko. We do all the regular uchikomi, kirikaeshi and kakarikeiko as well (I do them as well).

Is there such a thing as too much seme when doing keiko with a kid or less experienced kenshi? Should I focus more on oji-waza? What is the best way to practice with someone of less experience, so it benefits both parties?

[rfoxmich]

- Take the first ippon.
Then set your level a bit above theirs but make your actions much more correct than that level.

[nodachi]

Trying to pick at the kids openings is good. If they don't get it, then it reaches the point to where you probably should take the 10 seconds it takes to tell them that you are hitting them repeatedly using _______ technique because they are doing __________. More mature people will realize something is wrong and try to fix it. People who just don't get it need a verbal push to understand why you are clobbering them. Ideally people figure it out on their own and they learn more that way, but at some point a verbal push helps to accelerate things if they just aren't getting it. This can help the beginner to actually move in a productive direction rather than just clobbering them without them understanding why.

If you want to practice for yourself when you are working with someone below you, there are a few fun ways of pushing yourself. A. force yourself to do techniques that are harder for you. People below you give you the chance to practice things you can't with your sempai/sensei. Once you can do it consistently against those below you, then you can start to incorporate them in your practice against more challenging opponents. B. try to see if you can control them with seme. Want them to hit a specific target and then coerce them somehow to do it. Both controlling others and doing more advanced skills is crazy hard to practice immediately against your superiors so try it with your equals and those below you first.

[Bokushingu]

Hey Kuzu70, do u have a copy of the Jigeiko/seme/tactics articles written by a Dr. S. Honda? here is the link to the British website (http://www.kendo.org.uk/pmwiki.php/Main/ArchiveArticles) hosting the articles. I found this article, attitudes-to-ji-geiko (http://kendo.org.uk/articles/attitudes-to-ji-geiko/), to be helpful to me with how to jigeiko with a myriad of people.

[Bokushingu]

Oh i forgot, of ocurse i'm nowhere near the level, skill & experience of Kuzu70. but when i play with Kyu or Youth with some experience, I encourage them to just go at the same time as me instead of blocking or stepping away (either get hit or beat me to the punch). when they dont attack & block or run, i punish em lol. I'm noticing that some kyus that play me often or developing stronger sense of timing and not missing a good chance to cut. i luv it when they get a good hit on me just as im starting to attack. :)

[hyuna]

I don't think it is good to give a blanket statements about picking at openings. Specifically, with regard to the original question, I doubt very much you will be able to teach someone to stop backing up, flinching, and blocking by hitting them, unless you intend to drive them into a rage. That is rarely productive.

Often, someone who is playing defensively like that is afraid to be hit. Such people often don't hit because they're afraid you will do ooji-waza and hit them, so they don't attack. They're afraid that the opening that they think they see is a trick, and they don't believe they are able to take the point. Either that, or they don't see the opening at all. You generally can't teach someone the futility of fear by playing aggressively with them because that makes them more afraid and insecure, which just pushes them deeper into their shell.

Sometimes you have to pick at openings, because to help our partner we have to help them understand their weaknesses. But if they are timid, their weakness is not one of presenting too many openings. Their weakness is their fear, so we have to help our partner realize that they are being foolish in their fear by ignoring openings and help them see that there is nothing to be afraid of. If they are afraid of being hit or "losing," then we will not help them learn not to be afraid by hitting them or causing them to feel like they have lost because we will be justifying their fear.

I find practicing with people like this can be very productive. For one, I can practice "pulling" seme. I have to read my partner and figure out what encourages them to attack me. I can practice ooji-waza, if my partner is not so timid that I think it is counterproductive. When I do attack, I try to cause them to block where I want them to, and not just try to be able to change targets when they throw up a block. I also practice my ability to perceive what my opponent is doing by trying to block or dodge attacks made incorrectly but deliberately allowing good hits to land. The ability to quickly and clearly distinguish good technique from bad is necessary to be a good shimpan, too.

[MartialArtsGirl]

I'm a kyu, so here are some reasons why I will block/back up a lot (on those days I do):

Sometimes, the other person is just uhm, very fast and I just react. I feel like I don't get a chance to attack. Other times I see openings (or think I do) and I can't get there in time. (probably). Then there are times I can't see openings, and I'm not very good at creating them yet. (Often the later ends with me getting impaled on someones shinai, because I get too impatient...lol)

Another reason I don't attack- and it's a big one- is that after awhile of jigeiko, my heel starts to really hurt (sometimes) and pushing off becomes almost impossible. I also kind of noticed recently that my calf muscle tightens up, so it's very hard for me to even force myself to push off properly even when it hurts. Instead I end up dragging it which is not kendo. When it gets like that, even though I want to, I often don't attack as much because I'm fighting myself to make myself move (since every step hurts). It's not as bad as it used to be though, but having this problem so long is messing with my head. I doubt that this one relates much to what the OP's kyus are experiencing though...

Also sometimes I get very frustrated and discouraged because I'm not "as good" as the other person or he/she is attacking super fast so I feel like I don't have the chance to do anything.. Sometimes it may not even be the person who I'm fighting that made me feel so discouraged (it may have been someone I just fought). This has happened a few times, and if I'm really noticably not attacking,-suddenly was, then I'm not- (and if its not my heel or exhaustion) discouragement is the most likely reason. I wonder how many other kyus experience this?

[Raffa]

Rfoxmich and Nodachi had put it simple. Maybe the short version could be:
Take first ippon and then adapt to the level of your aite. Let him hit some ippon on you, just try to be you chosing what they will hit, as far as I have understand this is the basic "pull" seme. Sometimes try an oji waza but only once every two or three attacks...

[kuzu70]

Thanks for the thoughts. I definately can use some of the advice given. Bokushingu, the link to the article was awesome. I had just recently been thinking about the importance of controlling the center and actually trying to work actively on it during keiko. The part about the 60% shikake waza and 40% oji waza was interesting too. Probably 80-90% of my waza are shikake waza (at least so it feels to me).

As others have mentioned working on that "pulling" seme will be benefical as well. It is hard to work on this, I guess mainly because of my impatience. I can see this benefitting my patience and also helping to draw out my opponents (and give them more confidence to attack). Also, hitting correctly with good footwork as rfoxmich mentioned is important. I notice I tend to get lazy and don't use proper footwork when practicing witht the kids.

I have keiko friday so we'll see how it goes.

[Halcyon]

Lots of good advice here. I especially agree with what Arthur said.

The general rule I was taught that has served me well over the years is that to be a good sempai in jigeiko, one should try to play at a level that is half a grade higher than your opponent. So, if your opponent is shodan, you play as if you are somewhere between shodan and 2 dan. Yes, easier said than done. But the idea is that you don't want to make it so difficult that you demoralize your kohai. You kinda have to give them a sense that they can indeed score against you if they really try. And then if they bring their A-game, you take it up a notch. This concept of "hikitate geiko" -- that is, pulling your kohai up to a higher level -- is really important to creating a dojo spirit where everyone is doing their best and improving together, not just trying to beat each other up.

[Bokushingu]

I'm kind of glad the Sempai & Sensei that were involved with my training never played down to my level. they use to crush me me from day one of wearing bogu. it was discouraging, but they would tell me why i recieved such a beating & it improved me over the course of time big time! I did notice that the people that started wearing bogu around the same time as me got the soft treatment: sempai & sensei playing a little above their level. But i also noticed their skill level remained low or average. but most importantly, they lack the confidence to compete or test on a higher level.

[hyuna]

I think there is a very delicate balance between being so hard on people that they give up and being so soft on people that they aren't pushed past the limits they think they have in order to find their real limits. It seems like a small miracle to me whenever someone is able to find the right balance.

Not to mention that there is no real balance possible with some people. There are plenty of people that are simply not interested in being pushed hard to improve. Then you have to make a choice about what kind of community you want to have in your dojo.