Naginata Questions

[Khabbi]

I just had two maybe stupid questions

the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

and almost every japanes martial art has a "do" or "jutsu" in the end , how come naginata doesent have a do or jutsu ?

thanx in advance

[xvikingx]

1:Naginata were not replaced by the yari. They just became fazed out over time because of fire arms. Although even more rare than naginata, you can learn sojutsu (yari). Check out: www.scnf.org or www.naginata.org ;pretty good reading material on the history and development of naginata.

2:I rarely hear naginata-do. Maybe because it just sounds funny. However koryuu naginata is often called naginata-jutsu. Check out: www.koryu.com they have a list of koryu naginata styles. Also has some sojutsu schools.

[Kaeshi]

I just had two maybe stupid questions

the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

and almost every japanes martial art has a "do" or "jutsu" in the end , how come naginata doesent have a do or jutsu ?

thanx in advance
"Do" means "way" in japanese, implying that there is a spiritual aspect to the art.
"Jutsu" means "art" or "techniques", and naginata should be called naginata-jutsu, although it is never caught on. its like the way people say karate instead of karate-do like they should.

P.S: Terry pratchett is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[R A Sosnowski]

I just had two maybe stupid questions

the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

and almost every japanes martial art has a "do" or "jutsu" in the end , how come naginata doesent have a do or jutsu ?

thanx in advance

1. Battlefield tactics changed. With more infantry on the battlefield, it was too close to effectively wield naginata, and training for large groups is much easier in Sojutsu than in Naginata-jutsu. Home defense by samurai women still used the Naginata. Also the Sohei (warrior monks) continued to carry Naginata.

2. Prior to WWII, Naginata-do was the term used for Naginata training, apparently for Koryu and the pre-Atarashii Naginata taught to girls and young women as part of Phys. Ed. in grade school and high school. With the defeat of Imperial Japan in 1945 and the reformulation of Naginata in the early 1950's, it was decided that the term "Naginata-do" was a shameful reminder to the women leaders (Naginata-do was a women's art while Kendo and Judo were men's arts at that time) of Budo being used as a political tool of an imperialistic state, so the term "Atarashii ("new," also "fresh") Naginata" was coined to indicate the break away from the negative connotations of the former "Naginata-do." I suspect that when the last of that generation of Japanese women dies off, the term "Naginata-do" will come back into vogue. I personally use it in unofficial contexts.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Hello Raymond!
Prior to WWII, Naginata-do was the term used for Naginata training..
I have heard that the Monbushu (School) Naginata was constructed during and not prior WWII. Are you saying that something called Naginata-do existed before WWII?

It is also funny that Koryu Naginata-jutsu probably carries most of what gaijin refer to as "do" but is still called "jutsu" in Japan.

[R A Sosnowski]

Hello Jacob,

Hello Raymond!
.
I have heard that the Monbushu (School) Naginata was constructed during and not prior WWII. Are you saying that something called Naginata-do existed before WWII?

It is also funny that Koryu Naginata-jutsu probably carries most of what gaijin refer to as "do" but is still called "jutsu" in Japan.

Yes. You are indeed correct about Monbushu Naginata - it was officially adopted in 1943.

I have several old Naginata text books. For example, I have a rare 1943, 5th edition of Tendo Ryu, which uses "Naginata-do" in the title - that same title is on the 1939 1st edition I am told. I have a pre-WWII (late 1930's I am told) training manual for "Naginata-do."

It's indeed funny about the "-do"/"-jutsu" debate. Apparently, during the Showa era prior to WWII, it was fashionable to substitute "-do" for "-jutsu" in the name of your art - for example the last soke of Shindo Muso Ryu, Shimizu Takaji, renamed the art Jodo from Jojutsu, but did not change the way that the art was practiced. His student, Kaminoda Tsunenori, from whom my training comes, still teaches the art as his teacher did - we call it Jodo, but it's really still Jojutsu in practice. The Japanese apparently don't worry about such things. :D

[Jakob Ryngen]

I have several old Naginata text books. For example, I have a rare 1943, 5th edition of Tendo Ryu, which uses "Naginata-do" in the title - that same title is on the 1939 1st edition I am told. I have a pre-WWII (late 1930's I am told) training manual for "Naginata-do."

Really interesting! I thougth Tendo Ryu only used the term "naginata-jutsu". How did you get your hands on such rare books?

His student, Kaminoda Tsunenori, from whom my training comes, still teaches the art as his teacher did - we call it Jodo, but it's really still Jojutsu in practice.
You train for... him? Respect!

The Japanese apparently don't worry about such things. :D
Nah... I guess they can't be wrong about that... :)

[R A Sosnowski]

Really interesting! I thougth Tendo Ryu only used the term "naginata-jutsu". How did you get your hands on such rare books?


I take it that in the early 1950's, when Tendo Ryu was being taught again, they went back to using the term "Naginata-jutsu."

As far as acquiring the book, I got a referral from someone who had recently returned from Japan about an American still in Japan (at that time) who acquired old Japanese Budo books from various Japanese dealers. I made contact and told him what I wanted. We had agreed upon max price for any edition in fair condition sight unseen, otherwise he would contact me if he found something more expensive. In a very rare stroke of luck, he managed to find a copy in a mere three weeks (he was expecting more like 6 to 12 months!). It was not a 1st or 2nd edition, but a 5th edition - at this point during WWII there was a paper shortage in Japan so the pages are quite thin. It was within my price limit and within 6 weeks I had it.

Not all requests went so fast or were successful. A search for a rare book about Chinese archery translated into Japanese turned up nothing. My contact has since left Japan. :(


You train for... him [Kaminoda Tsunenori]? Respect!


Yes. He taught 5 annual Gasshuku in the US between 1996 and 2000, all of which I attended. A small group of us have maintained contact with him since then. Our group leader goes over several times a year to Japan to train. I plan to travel to Japan to train next year if I am recommended for Oku-iri. When he was here [USA] last in 2000, I was presented a pre-Oku certificate for Shoden (Omote) from Kaminoda-s.

[mystic_kendoka]

isnt yari used against cavalry? my knowledge of this comes from shogun total war... so it might not be accurate...

[R A Sosnowski]

isnt yari used against cavalry? my knowledge of this comes from shogun total war... so it might not be accurate...

Yes, during a part of the history. Battlefield tactics and the so-called rules-of-engagement changed, and so did the weapons used. See post #4 in this thread.

Naginata were used primarily in the 1200's and 1300's, and on into the 1400's. The Yari rose to importance in the early 1300's after the Mongul invasions. After the mid-1400's, the Yari began to replace the Naginata in the large groups of conscripted infantry. However, the Naginata continued to be used in warfare, albeit in rather small numbers, right up to the beginning of the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1603.

HTH.

[Will Schutt]

Yes. He taught 5 annual Gasshuku in the US between 1996 and 2000, all of which I attended. A small group of us have maintained contact with him since then. Our group leader goes over several times a year to Japan to train. I plan to travel to Japan to train next year if I am recommended for Oku-iri. When he was here [USA] last in 2000, I was presented a pre-Oku certificate for Shoden (Omote) from Kaminoda-s.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so please check the jodo forum.

thanks - Will

[moonblade]

Actually, the yari was around centuries before naginata, it's just a basic (but well-made spear). The difference between them is a class issue. While yari were employed by Samurai, and check out The Hidden Fortress film by Akira Kurosawa for an awesome yari duel, but Naginata was never used by peasant and ashigaru troops, it was an upper-class weapon.

[Jakob Ryngen]

Actually, the yari was around centuries before naginata, it's just a basic (but well-made spear). The difference between them is a class issue. While yari were employed by Samurai, and check out The Hidden Fortress film by Akira Kurosawa for an awesome yari duel, but Naginata was never used by peasant and ashigaru troops, it was an upper-class weapon.
Hm, I never liked that yari duel myself but that is a matter of taste. You will have to back that "never" up to convince me however. Post 16th century naginata was a very common weapon.

[Bleda]

From what i've read and been told the naginata was replaced by the yari more because of ease of use and training mosre so than because it was a superior weapon. I know many who still believe that the naginata is the best battlefield weapon due to its flexibility and lethality when used in trained hands. Its alot harder to teach someone naginata cuts than stabs and pokes with a spear (yes i realize that there is much more to sojutsu but for the most part this is what the ashugiri would have learned).

[moonblade]

<<From what i've read and been told the naginata was replaced by the yari more because of ease of use and training mosre so than because it was a superior weapon.>>

Am I talking to myself? :rolleyes: The Yari and the Bow were the primary weapons of the Samurai before the Gempei war, (1100s A.D.) with the sword a distance second. Read tales of the warriors of this time and they all talk about their abilities with the bow. The naginata wasn't even a gleam in an armorers eye at this time.

When was the yari supposed to replace the naginata anyway? What's the timeframe?


Hey, Jakob, what about the duel bothered you? And I'll use never as I've never heard about it, but if you or anybody else have some documents or links to ukeio (sp) prints, please present them.

[Bleda]

Its not really correct to say that the yari was the mainstay of the samurai but rather that the yari was the mainstay of the lesser skilled samurai. No warrior skilled with the naginata would have used a yari over it unless under the correct circumstances. The yari was of course more numerous due to it being the easier weapon to learn but saying that the yari and bow were the prefered weapon of the samurai is just silly. Also during the time period you're talking about battles took place mostly from horseback where archers peppered each other and use the yari as lances. Here the yari has the advantage over the naginata do to its reach but infantry on infantry the naginata was fearsome.

[moonblade]

What I'm attempting to say is that from the inception of samurai (well before 1000 AD) the primary weapons of the bushi class was the yari (spear) and bow. After the Minamoto beat the Taira, the sword became the weapon most identified with the samurai class. I don't know when the naginata was developed but the spear came first. Which was the point of the orginal post I was trying to refute.

In terms of their respective strengths, yes, a naginata as an individual weapon is better than a spear which is best used in a massed line. But mostly, it depends on the situation the warrior might find themselves in.

[Bleda]

I just had two maybe stupid questions

the naginata was replaced by the yari , im guessing because the yari was a supirior weapon ? so why how come you are practicing with naginatas instead of yaris ?

I understand where you are coming from moon in terms of numbers of use and time frame but i still don't see this statement as a question of only numbers but rather as the idea that people skilled in both weapons prefered the yari over the naginata on a consistent basis.

[moonblade]

I guess I'd ask where the idea that people who preferred one then switched to the other came from? Part of the reason for the history lesson is to say; hey, here's the proof for my assertion. Where and when did this happen? I think the people who most used naginata (Warrior Monks and female samurai and some cavalry) never switched to yari. The yari is mostly a lower class warrior weapon (for ashigaru) after a certain period. I don't think anybody really switched over.

[Bleda]

Just as a quick note the naginata actually was rarely used on cavalry and mostly used by shock troops and heavy infantry. The yari was actually the prefered weapon from horseback used as a lance.

[Jakob Ryngen]

I have read in GMTs "Samurai" that at the battle of Sekigahara (1600) only one small group of footsoldiers still used naginata. The rest used yari as a main melee-weapon. I have heard of some elite-guards experimenting with nagimaki but that might be before Sekigahara.

Hey, Jakob, what about the duel bothered you? And I'll use never as I've never heard about it, but if you or anybody else have some documents or links to ukeio (sp) prints, please present them.
Kurosawa used a master of Kashima Shin Ryu to choreograph the swordfights, but I find the yari-fight very different to the sojutsu I have seen. It looks like something from a Robin Hood-movie really...

[Moonlight_Blade]

I have been in kendo fo 3 years now and never spared with some one with a naginata until last month. I had a problem getting with in strikeing range with my shinai and it size 39 and that a vary long shinai. Can any one tell me how to counter there reach with the naginata???

[berghaan]

try and get past their kensen as fast as you can to a distance where you control the fight. So that would be by using harai or so.

[Moonlight_Blade]

try and get past their kensen as fast as you can to a distance where you control the fight. So that would be by using harai or so.Thanks it worked

[Tenjo]

True? supreme art, Kyu Ba no Michi.

[Tenjo]

Moonlight Blade, I offer you a challenge.
And it is taking on this styles, if you beat the following I shall honor you to Challenge the best there is.
Try going up againts these schools to see the true ferocity of both the Naginata and Yari, they have proven to be adimiral foes. Here are there Ryu's starting from the best to the supreme.

Gassan-Ryu, Naginatajutsu
Higo Ko-Ryu, Naginatajutsu
Hoshin-Ryu, Naginatajutsu
Hozo-in-Ryu, Yaijutsu
Jikishin Kage-Ryu, Yarijutsu, Naginatajutsu
Kashima Shinto-Ryu, Naginatajutsu
Masaki-Ryu, Naginatajutsu
Tento-Ryu, Naginatajutsu
Toda-ha Boku-Ryu,Naginatajutsu
?????- This is the school known to be the best there is, despite there family traditions.
Try these schools to gain experiaces againts this type of styles.
So how about it this is just a challenge, if you accept this is how I will know you've beaten them ask for the title of there sutra or quote that I may recognize from, So this is just to you take as long as you want. Tell them Takamoro Tenjo, asked you to. I know you won't need my advice so let me know. And it is rarely I speak to other people so your the only one I've spoken too with just a single quote.

[not-I]

[...]And it is rarely I speak to other people so your the only one I've spoken too with just a single quote.
Hi Tenjo, welcome to Kendo World. Yes, i noticed that several of your posts so far have been "mmmm.... interesting?", which is ambiguous at best.

It would be interesting to know just what you find interesting about the threads you reply to and to find out a little more about you (for example, which art you practice - kendo? naginata?).

Arigato. :)

[Tenjo]

Name, Takamoro Tenjo.
I rarely speak do to the lack of compassion from people who think they have modesty. It is intresting to read there quotes and visualize how they really are. The threads I read are for a purpose that will serve me well on the system I am working on right now. Now you want to know about me, you'll have to wait and see who I am and what art I specialize in, I know here's a hint (Ssu-Ling). There that should help you a bit, But Not-I-san don't keep asking questions about me if you have something you want to ask, make it something that is worth answering. But I must say this, you are truly remarkable on your use of words good!!! I might have a challenge for you also.
So Hai! Domo arigato Yoroshiku oneigaishimas,

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Were yari and naginata ever used together? I have seen several references to the English having blocks of pikemen (ok, not exactly the same, but basically a long spear without a cutting edge, which I don't believe all yari had either) "supported" by billmen (once again, not exactly the same, but also a polearm, often somewhat shorter, but also used with either a thrust or a powerful slash). I don't know exactly how they did it, what formations they used or that sort of thing, but I do know they considered it superior to the Scottish method of using blocks of "unsupported" pikeman, partially because a rank of opponents using large two-handed swords could stay outside the thrusting range of the pikemen and chop or break the heads off the pikes, rendering them pretty much useless. I was just wondering if the same sort of technique was used in Japan, it looks like a rank of yari-weilding troops faced with no-dachi or nagimaki would have had a similar problem and was wondering if they had a similar solution.

[Tenjo]

Reasonable..?

[not-I]

Now you want to know about me, you'll have to wait and see who I am and what art I specialize in, I know here's a hint (Ssu-Ling).
Purportedly, the tortoise can speak to humans only after it has reached an age of 1,000 years, so that might be a long wait.

Nevertheless, thank you for your response.