Greatest sword makers?

[tommo1]

Just a curious one really, who made the best (or best known) katanas?

[Prof.Wizard]

Just a curious one really, who made the best (or best known) katanas?And who is making them now? (even with modern techniques)

[Khabbi]

Swordstore sells shinken made by japanes smiths ,

Hidemune,Kazuyoshi,Kanemichi,Muneshige,Kanetoki,Ka nemichi ,Kuniharu ( theres more )

they use the old technique for making swords ,

"And who is making them now? (even with modern techniques)"
If they used modern tech , it would just be one of those cheap ones u can buy on homeshopping network

[gUnDaL]

if they used modern technology wouldn't the swords be stronger? or no?

[Khabbi]

I think its a matter of tradition , im sure u could use a computer and get all the angels down to make a stronger sword , then add titanium and change all the stuff about the sword , super light materials , but wouldent that lead to a whole new sword? not the traditional katana ?

Mass produced swords is another modern technique , they did that during WW2 , they were bad quiality , but cheap to produce

The whole point is to get the traditionel swords from smiths that do it the old way . knowledge passed down

Shiro could prob get some names of old smiths , from edo and befor edo , i dont have the motivation right now =)

[gUnDaL]

oo i seeee... but why use swords in WWII... when they'll just fill you up with lead while you're charging at them... Maybe if you ran outa bullets you could use the sword but i think a little knife would be more convenient to carry

[Khabbi]

just thought of another exampel , ppl who like match lock guns / rifles, lets say they asked " cant we make this guns better with modern tech ? " well yes , modern guns , 9mm , m16's . same goes with the swords

Im not great on WW2 history . but they had them more for tradition , There was alot of Samurai propeganda during the war to boost moral in the japanes army. Not everyone had swords , more like officers . They dident attack with swords

[Prof.Wizard]

Im not great on WW2 history . but they had them more for tradition , There was alot of Samurai propeganda during the war to boost moral in the japanes army. Not everyone had swords , more like officers . They dident attack with swordsI've heard of reports of US soldiers coming back from war carrying as souvenirs katanas of captured or killed Japanese Army officers that sometimes ended up as ancient blades of incalculable value. Some entered private collections, some museums, some more lucky returned to Japan...

And yes, some bloody Banzai suicide attacks (in Okinawa and Iwo Jima, for example) were made simply by Katana-charging officers. The Katana was also used extensively to kill prisoners-rioters as well.

[Prof.Wizard]

Swordstore sells shinken made by japanes smiths ,

Hidemune,Kazuyoshi,Kanemichi,Muneshige,Kanetoki,Ka nemichi ,Kuniharu ( theres more )

they use the old technique for making swords ,

"And who is making them now? (even with modern techniques)"
If they used modern tech , it would just be one of those cheap ones u can buy on homeshopping networkNot 100% true. What about Howard Clark blades? This guy claims he makes these blades using a blend of modern materials and knowledge with experience and techniques from ancient Japanese smithies. I think it's the best of worlds.

BTW, so far I've been looking to online shops selling good quality Katanas for Iaido, the Howard Clark L6 Bainite has been the most expensive (from the newly-forged ones) with a price of $7200...

[Prof.Wizard]

And yes, some bloody Banzai suicide attacks (in Okinawa and Iwo Jima, for example) were made simply by Katana-charging officers.
A pretty frightening sight for the average grunt, if you ask me! :ko:

[plewis66]

Not 100% true. What about Howard Clark blades? This guy claims he makes these blades using a blend of modern materials and knowledge with experience and techniques from ancient Japanese smithies. I think it's the best of worlds.

BTW, so far I've been looking to online shops selling good quality Katanas for Iaido, the Howard Clark L6 Bainite has been the most expensive (from the newly-forged ones) with a price of $7200...
Some information I've dug up from obscure websites:

Newly made Japanese Shinken by one of the few current governament acknowledge craftsmen will usually cost upwards of 15,000 dollars US. They are only allowed to make 12 swords each a year, and do not advertise on the internet. At present, I believe that there are two swordsmiths classified as 'Living National Treasure'. There is a waiting list for may years for one of their blades, and you could not seek to get change out of 20,000 USD. A license is required from the Japanese government to have such a sword exported.

I beleve this is correct, but have not had it corroborated, except by a few web sites.

[Khabbi]

yeah that sounds about right plewis66

would be fun to be "Bill Gates rich" ,

[Prof.Wizard]

Some information I've dug up from obscure websites:

Newly made Japanese Shinken by one of the few current governament acknowledge craftsmen will usually cost upwards of 15,000 dollars US. They are only allowed to make 12 swords each a year, and do not advertise on the internet. At present, I believe that there are two swordsmiths classified as 'Living National Treasure'. There is a waiting list for may years for one of their blades, and you could not seek to get change out of 20,000 USD. A license is required from the Japanese government to have such a sword exported.

I beleve this is correct, but have not had it corroborated, except by a few web sites.
I believe it because I read something similar in my quest to find the best Katana smithy. Wow, a license from the Japanese goverment to take a sword out of the country! It sounds surreal to ever feel the grip of one of these babies...

OT Note: Even for a Ηoward-Clark L6 you have to wait 16 to 18 months to get it... (from the moment you place the order to the moment they ship it to you)

[chidokan]

Masamune is reputed to be one of the two best smiths...I'll let you find out who the other is, but there was a competition held to determine which was the best of the two. Both swords were held in a stream, edge towards the flow. One cut a leaf floating past, the other had the leaf float past uncut, deflecting it. A comment was made between a life giving and a killing sword, saying which one is best. Do some more research and tell me who won... :old_man:

If you look around you can find decent antique blades for under $3500, they take some finding but are not that rare. I saw plenty around this price in Kyoto last year, and am saving up to get one when I go over next. They are fully licenced and the dealers are quite helpful...

[Prof.Wizard]

Masamune is reputed to be one of the two best smiths...I'll let you find out who the other is, but there was a competition held to determine which was the best of the two. Both swords were held in a stream, edge towards the flow. One cut a leaf floating past, the other had the leaf float past uncut, deflecting it. A comment was made between a life giving and a killing sword, saying which one is best. Do some more research and tell me who won... :old_man:The Muramasa cut the leaf.
The Masamune saved the leaf.



If you look around you can find decent antique blades for under $3500, they take some finding but are not that rare. I saw plenty around this price in Kyoto last year, and am saving up to get one when I go over next. They are fully licenced and the dealers are quite helpful...Are you sure they are not prank? I would expect genuine antique (Sengoku era, early Edo era) Katanas to be hidden in the depths of private collections or museums. Of course, late Edo era till WWII blades should be much more common. But aren't they already given away as well?

[Shiro]

Shiro could prob get some names of old smiths , from edo and befor edo , i dont have the motivation right now =)

Now don't push it :) Sadly, I only know Masamune and Muramase and I can't say when they lived :/.

But it's an intresting subject, I'll nose around a little bit :).

[Prof.Wizard]

For what is worth, my personal drool dream is to possess a blade made by one of these goverment-issued smithies in Japan, made in the old way and with the old techniques using modern material and with customized Tsuba and Tsuka to my liking...

The best Shinken is your own Shinken! :)

[Khabbi]

my personal drool dream would be to be "Bill Gates rich" then i could get as many blades I wanted , and some cool cars , nice DVD collection , all the books I want , and a big house , and a big house to my parents and so on =)

Why the modern material Prof.Wizard ? , keep things traditional =)

I think the smiths that make them use the traditional methods and the traditional material , thats what makes it special

[Prof.Wizard]

Why the modern material Prof.Wizard ? , keep things traditional =)

I think the smiths that make them use the traditional methods and the traditional material , thats what makes it specialYou are right. However I was only intending the use of Swedish iron because it is top.

Also this Bainite (Fe3C) is so nice for use in swords.
Read here (http://swordforum.com/summer99/howardclark.html) and you may change your mind.

Do you prefer mere beauty (for display) or cutting power (for tameshigiri)? The L6 because of its construction isn't an artist's dream as it is a tool steel. Read the above article and then tell me what you think.

Also, see these pics (http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/atziluth.htm) for the ultimate drooling experience... :)

This is the ultimate blade IMHO. A sword that sets standard and makes you really forget about tradition...

[Khabbi]

actualy no , im sure the japanes smiths can do a equal or better job =)

Both those links had great looking swords , however , one thing , in the pics of howard clarks swords , i noticed that the tip of the sword had a "line " that sorta seperated the tip from the rest of the sword , i think ive read that the real good swords dont have that "line" ( no offence to clark , sure its a excelent sword) , Tim Hamilton could prob help in this discution =)

"A great sword is kinda like a girlfriend , it doesent have to be perfect , it just has to be right for you " ( a Khabbi quote , just made it up :smiley: )

And it was ment as a fine compliment to girls/women , no hate mail lol

[Hattori Hanzo]

Speaking of the Muramasa and Masamune, does anybody have a link for this legend? I scoured google last night and couldn't find a single thing..

Thanks.

[Dan Shea]

actualy no , im sure the japanes smiths can do a equal or better job =)

And you'd be wrong on some counts and right on others.
Howard's blades are not Japanese blades, they are Japanese styled blades.
They are not made traditionally for several reasons. The quality of steel we have today does not require the same methodology to forge.

Japanese smiths use sand to create steel with high carbon content. This carbon must be distributed evenly throughout the blade and so the folding process is used. Using the folding process on modern steel is only for looks, not for strength.

The L6 bainite will outperform a traditional japanese made sword. There is no question. The tests have been done and the laws of physics do not break for anyone.

There seems to be a common misconception about swords in general and you touched upon some of it in your earlier posts.

Titanium is a notoriously bad material for creating a sword. I won't even begin to go into how wrong it is to even imply it is useful for use as a sword. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to check out sword forum and their beginner's sticky threads. :)

Japanese created (and still do!) decent swords with the incredibly poor quality steel they had through refinement using their own techniques.

You can however buy a much more resilient sword in the L6 Bainite, but it will not be a "Traditional" Japanese sword. It will be a modern sword made with modern materials that looks like a Japanese sword.

That being said, if you spend the 10k or more that is required for a true nihonto with NHTBK certificates and a genuine rating and use it for tameshigiri, you're not only being foolish with your money, you're inherently not understanding the sword at all.

As the owner of a sword you are merely it's custodian, keeping it in good condition for the next generation to receive and cherish. Most swords from earlier Japanese history have survived because they were not used. Using the sword scratches it and requires it to receive a polishing. Polishing removes material from the sword. Do this enough times and there is not enough sword left to pass on to the next generation.

I see an awful lot of misinformation and a lack of understanding not only about nihonto, but about swords in general. Japanese swords are not magical, they will not inherently be better than anything else. That is Hollywood magic that has been psuhed on the public for so long people just believe it outright.

I'd urge you to read up on nihonto, their history and the study of them. You'll learn that alot of the misconceptions spouted as truths are simply bald faced lies or wishful thinking on the part of people who want to believe in the magical quality of Japanese swords.

Sorry to get preachy, but I've seen so much misinformation posted in this thread I figure for me to not step in would be worse than potentially hurting someone's feelings.

There are reputable people out there who devote their lives to studying these objects of art and if you ask them the right way, they'll be more than happy to impart their knowledge onto you.

Swordforum.com is an excellent place to learn from respected people about nihonto.

Have a great day and I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone.

[Prof.Wizard]

You certainly didn't offend anyone, Sir, but if you speak with that air of field authority (which is NOT inherently a bad thing cause personally I'm here to learn) please present Yourself and Your sources.

I agree with everything You said above. I actually praised the L6 for its performance and Tameshigiri, not its mere beauty.

[Hattori Hanzo]

what would you use a live sword for anyway with the exception of slicing fruit i.e. melons and such. Besides collecting of course, if you aren't going to slice anything then a live blade really wouldn't be nessecary would it with the exception of the danger aspect of doing kata or iado with a live blade.

[Khabbi]

well its like Prof.Wizard said , im no expert , just puttin my views out . I dont realy agree with the hollywood thing you said , the only reason we are talking about japanes swords is because we practice Iaido , we do understand that there are better materials and weapons .

Live swords must be used after 5th dan i think ? , but its not uncommon to use it befor that , theres alot of threads about this ..........

And live swords are used in Battojutsu and some other "cutting arts"

[Hattori Hanzo]

Hmmm never heard of the cutting arts, so they actually have you cut stuff up? So that is what they study in the clips I have seen where they hack stuff up?

[Dan Shea]

You certainly didn't offend anyone, Sir, but if you speak with that air of field authority (which is NOT inherently a bad thing cause personally I'm here to learn) please present Yourself and Your sources.

I agree with everything You said above. I actually praised the L6 for its performance and Tameshigiri, not its mere beauty.
I'm not trying to speak with an air of authority, there is so much more I have to learn before I can even claim to know what alot fo the guys on swordforum.com know. But Reading though their stickies will give you a good indication about all the myths surrounding Japanese swords and alot od misconceptions about what makes a good sword.
Speak with Tony Alvarez or Howard Clark and find out what they did to test the L6. They did alot of things most sane people would not attempt with a sword. SwordforumBugei is a good place to discuss Howard's work as he only sells fully outfitted swords directly through bugei.com

As far as books go, Donn Draeger wrote or co-wrote a book on The Japanese Sword which includes a lot of useful information.

Keith Larman is another excellent resource when it comes to the Japanese sword.

All of these guys with the exception of Donn (who passed away) are magnificent resources you can contact online for information with respect to Japanese swords.

I study Iaido and Kenjutsu along with pre-war kendo and I can definitely say that learning about the swords themselves and the culture surrounding them goes far deeper than I first imagined.

I've been studying the swords as an art object for maybe 6 months and as a Martial Artist for a little over a month. My primary background was 12+ years in Tae Kwon Do which does not have any weapons component.

So I hope I didn't come off too strongly, but please feel free to check out swordforum.com and swordforumbugei.com along with Donn Draeger's book and Dr. Gordon Warner's books on the subject. Dr. Warner is about 92 now and is the highest ranked non-asian in Iaido and Kendo if I am not mistaken. My sensei studied with him in Japan and was the reason my sensei started Iaido.

For now I am a neophyte when it comes to this stuff, but believe me...a little reading goes a long way in dispelling the myths alot of people think of as truths.

I hope that helps and I wish you all a good night.

[Dan Shea]

well its like Prof.Wizard said , im no expert , just puttin my views out . I dont realy agree with the hollywood thing you said , the only reason we are talking about japanes swords is because we practice Iaido , we do understand that there are better materials and weapons .

Live swords must be used after 5th dan i think ? , but its not uncommon to use it befor that , theres alot of threads about this ..........

And live swords are used in Battojutsu and some other "cutting arts"
Live swords are used at 5th dan and above (if your dojo gives dan rankings.)
Hollywood most defnitely over dramatizes the sword, entertainment is their business! :)

If you disagree with that statement, our discussion ends here, as I doubt we'd ever reconcile the difference inherent in the two viewpoints. :)

Either way, my above post cites some good resources to look for and some people to speak with if you're interested. I just wanted to make sure nobody goes out with a 40 dollar wall hanger and tries to cut a concrete block in half, they're going to end up hurting themself or someone else and that would be a bad thing.

The titanium sticky on sword forum goes into real detail beyond my metallurgy knowledge as to why it is a horrible metal for a sword, but having worked with it in other capacities I can say it is great for bicycle parts! :)

Have a good night!

[Khabbi]

"If you disagree with that statement, our discussion ends here"

No man , was sayin that I dont belive in the hollywood magic thing , and was sad that you thought I did . Hollywood f#cks everything up :smiley:

Ive never heard of a Iaido dojo that dident use Kyu and Dan grades ?
And I think that on the 5th Dan grading and above u have to use a live blade ,but you can use a live blade befor 5th Dan .

The Titanium thing was more of a example that I like the traditional way better . I was just sayin that , sure u can use carbon fiber , aluminium , titanium , to make a great light weight , cheap , super cutting sword . But the sword would loose its charm .

[Dan Shea]

No man , was sayin that I dont belive in the hollywood magic thing , and was sad that you thought I did . Hollywood f#cks everything up :smiley:

Ive never heard of a Iaido dojo that dident use Kyu and Dan grades ?
And I think that on the 5th Dan grading and above u have to use a live blade ,but you can use a live blade befor 5th Dan .

The Titanium thing was more of a example that I like the traditional way better . I was just sayin that , sure u can use carbon fiber , aluminium , titanium , to make a great light weight , cheap , super cutting sword . But the sword would loose its charm .
Sorry I had misread your post previously. I apologize. As far as Iaido dojos not giving out kyu and dan grades, they exist, I go to one. :)

Kyu and Dan grades are a relatively new idea, previously Menkyo Kaiden and similar scrolls were issued for people who had achieved full transmission of the art. They usually went on to found their own schools or continue to teach the school of swordsmanship they learned.

Titanium would not make a sword that cuts well, neither would carbon fiber or aluminum.

See this link (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28288&highlight=titanium)to see why titanium is not a good material for a sword blade.
Aluminum would not make a good blade either.
Carbon fiber would definitely not make a good blade. Carbon fiber makes a good shinai, because the strength of the carbon fiber is dependent on the weave of the individual fibers, but it would not make a good sword blade.

Steel has the correct properties and characterisitics to make a good cutting blade. Swords in general, are not razor sharp. They have a much shallower angle for their sharpening and are not sharpened like a knife or a razor edge is. My kitchen knives are sharpened at an angle of about 60 degrees, a sword sharpened like that would make a terrible cutter and the edge would likely roll causing the sword to be bent or severely damaged.

Now, if you wanted to lighten a sword by using titanium or aluminum fittings, or a carbon fiber material instead of wood for the tsuka, I don't know what that would do or if anyone has ever tried it, but since the world has used steel for quite a while and Japanese swords have been built, for the most part, the same way for several hundred years I'm going to side with traditional fittings. :)

As far as steel however, metallurgy has come a long way and steels you get from a mill today are at such tight tolerances they beat traditional made steel by a country mile. That being said though, the Japanese did a remarkable job with what they had on hand and the beautiful works of art that modern sword makers produce today is truly a sight to behold.

Now, if you were to ask me which I would buy the L6 or a Nihonto. I'm going to say Nihonto. Why? Not because it is better per say, but because it is cultural tradition in some Japanese families to have such things commissioned when a child is born or a wedding occurrs, or a house is bought, etc.

My wife and I have discussed it and when the time is right, we'll most likely commission a sword to have as the Inaba clan's family heirloom.

[Prof.Wizard]

Inaba clan? :glasses:

(I presume it's your/her family name, right?)

[Dan Shea]

Inaba clan? :glasses:

(I presume it's your/her family name, right?)
The wife's name. I'm Irish/Basque she's Japanese. In the states we take my name, the Japan we take hers. :)

[Prof.Wizard]

Lucky you... I wish I could insert some Japanese genes in my family! :rolleyes:
I wish your "clan" (hehe) to succeed, Daimyo! :wink:

Thanks for the previous eye-openning posts.
Regards.

[Dan Shea]

Lucky you... I wish I could insert some Japanese genes in my family! :rolleyes:
I wish your "clan" (hehe) to succeed, Daimyo! :wink:

Thanks for the previous eye-openning posts.
Regards.
From this link. (http://www2.smumn.edu/facpages/%7Eposhea/uasal/sheaclan/shistory.html)

The name O'Shea is one of several transliterations of the Gaelic 'O'Seaghdha,' meaning 'descendant of Segda.' The Segda, or Seghdha, in question was a 7th-century Chieftain of the Corcu Duibne kin group (http://www2.smumn.edu/facpages/%7Eposhea/uasal/sheaclan/corcdgen.html) (which also produced the septs of O'Connell (http://www.clansandnames.org/oconnell.shtml) and O'Falvey), a western Kerry tribal group which can be identified at least as early as the 6th or 7th century in western Kerry (http://www2.smumn.edu/facpages/%7Eposhea/uasal/sheaclan/smaps/6-11thc.html), and which may be synonymous with the 'Iverni' described by Ptolemy in his outline of Ireland given in the mid-2nd century (note the similary between 'Iverni' and Uibh Rathach, or 'Iveragh,' of which the O'Sheas were Lords until the 12th century).

That's why I use the term clan. :) Nothing to do with Japanese, I was raised as a member of the O'Shea clan.

I think it is important to know your families history and where they came from. It helps you understand yourself. I am hopeful my children acquire this interest in their history and learn all they can about their heritage as well.

I'd also hope they're as proud of their Irish and Basque heritage as they are of their Japanese. :)

Anyway, I'll save that for another thread!
Have a good day and all the best!

[chidokan]

just catching up with this one...
Khebba, the line between the tip and the main body of the sword is usual, but not always there. It depends on the polishing style and type of sword.

I was told to start using a shinken all the time last year in order for me to be less 'careless'. (I am currently 5th dan but this did not have a real bearing on the comment). I used to use one before second dan but thinking back this may have not been the right thing to do. It makes you careful, but at that level I feel now that my inexperience could have damaged the sword/saya and could have damaged me or others. I always remember doing a demo around that time, to earn some cash for the dojo, at a local garage. It was on carpet, and doing nukiuchi my legs did not move the way they are supposed to and the sword cut down through the carpet, a 1/4 inch steel plate, and into 1/2 inch of concrete. I could have ruined that sword, fortunately it was fine. It made good selling point for the salesmen and gave me a lesson I'll not forget.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Good sword! Sorry about the carpet and so forth...hehe

And now this swords are really good....Ow that hurt....I think I caught the tip on that one.

No places that teach Iado around here unfortunatly...then again I had to pull strings where I work so I could get to kendo.

Second Shift doesn't agree with dojo scheduling. hehe

[Kenshin Himura]

lol.. for me Kendo scheduling will never work unless I move. My parents probobly wont drive me all the way across Connecticut.. and they are also paying for my martial arts classes. lol ^^x'.. hm.. the sword-in-rug-and-concrete-and-steel reminds me of my sword.. lol ^^x' havent gotten proof its REALLY strong yet.. lol but its good enough to cut boxes! (thats all I have to train with.. I'm getting staw stacks later in the spring probobly..)

[bluemax_1]

Anyone consider the fact that Japanese swords were made as cutting implements and not pry bars? Sure the L6 Bainite sword makes a good pry bar, but I don't think I'll be using a sword to open crates or paint can lids.

In one of the websites posted, they already mention that the L6 sword does not have the edge retention or wear resistance of even 1086.

The entire history of japanese swordsmithing was to make the best possible cutting sword, although as battle use became less necessary so aesthetics became more important. The techniques that were used and developed in the forging of the swords was refined over centuries to provide a stronger sword that cut better and would hold up better in battle. They did of course refine the techniques to make do with the available material but tamahagane is not necessarily inferior to modern steel alloys.

There is a sword test that is still conducted occasionally in Japan and although I cannot remember the Japanese name for it, it is a cutting test against an iron helmet. I have seen the tests and the results using Nihonto and refuse to concede that a traditional sword is inferior to a modern one considering the gash the swords would make in those iron helmets without breaking or chipping the edge.

The steel of Nihonto contains specific amounts of several metals other than iron along with carbon and silica. The traditional forging of Nihonto and the folding process was developed not only to evenly distribute carbon through the metal, (carbon came from the ash in the forge) but also from the hot forging. The repeated process of hammering a piece of metal changes the molecular structure increasing the strength and density, much like shot/ball or laser peening machine parts today. continued hammering though obviously changes the dimensions of the original steel blank and it thus must be cut and folded if you don't want to have a nice big, thin piece of foil.

They developed the differential tempering to incorporate the 2 most desirable traits in a sword. A hard edge for good cutting ability and edge retention and a softer, less brittle body to absorb the impact of cutting. Making the sword hard all the way through would result in a broken sword with the first couple of hard hits and making the whole sword softer would give you a nice blunt club after a few hits. Further understanding of the benefits of differing hardness and springiness, weight and density, resulted in swords constructed with even more intricacy such as the seven piece construction used by Masamune. A more in depth study of japanese swordmaking also reveals that the geometry of the swords could reflect differences in the variations in cutting technique favored by the schools/bushi of the region/era.

Sure modern swordsmiths can make swords that are better pry bars (or sledgehammers when they don't have an edge), but for an implement primarily designed to cut flesh, bone and the iron plates in the armour of the period, there isn't much better than real Nihonto.

Modern day rifles don't make great sledgehammers or baseball bats either, but they work very well when you use them for what they were made for.

[chidokan]

looking at the tests I did wonder why the sword was bent sideways... I think I would agree with normal tests to show a comparison, ie the kabuto cutting, usual tameshigiri on tatami and bamboo etc. There are junk japanese swords around, same as everything else you buy, so the fairest test would probably be a sword of approximately the same value subjected to the same cutting tests. Maybe something along the lines of a shear test, using the blade as a shearing force propelled by a set weight through a bamboo section of set size. Compare the damage if any and also at what point one of the swords fails to cut through. Afterwards a crack test similar to that performed on welded joints should show any hidden failures.

[Khabbi]

I still think its weird with Iaido Dojos not giving out kyu and Dan grades , awhell .

And the diff materials i said was just examples , just random materials i threw out . just to make a point . so im not fighting for titanium swords hehe =) And the carbon fiber would be for the tsuka , but i dont want a carbon fiber tsuka for that matter , just throwin out examples Dan :smiley:

Tim , did u call me Khebba ? lol

[chidokan]

sorry,typo...iaido dojos do give out grades BTW. There is a slight difference however between iaido and kendo however. Although you see the dan system in both, iaido also has some ryu sticking to the old system of awarding certificates. My ryu still awards the kongen no maki to senior grades, (menkyo, menkyo kaiden) usually around 7th dan and above for a comparison, however there is more to it than just turning up for a grading. Your teacher must have known you a long time, you have a family, are over forty, and are respected in your local community etc. My club has basically stopped grading at 6th dan. Lets face it how many do you want??!! It is enough to allow others to see where you are in the West, who follow the dan system, and by then you have proved your committment to training anyway. Athough we are many years off using the old system ( no-one I know would qualify for the first level for several years as yet) it is something to aim for in the future.

[Dan Shea]

Chidokan, I think Khabbi was referring to the fact that my dojo does not give out grades or rankings. You're either a student there or you're the sensei ;)

As far as the L6 being a prybar. I'm going to have to say since I've never held one, it would be hard for me to refute or support that statement.

Have you used an L6?

Looking at footage of tameshigiri performed with an L6 though, I'd say the L6 cuts tatami just as well as a nihonto and the bainite structure reduces blade abrasion.

Let's also not get carried away about Japanese steel. It is made from the sand that was on hand in the area. It is, in comparison to modern steels such as Swedish powdered steel, relatively of poor quality.

It was the skill of the smith, not the quality of the steel that made nihonto as good as they are.

If I was going to bet my life on a sword though, I'd stick to the tried and true nihonto simply because they have a proven track record of working.

Now, I'll just sip my coffee and be grateful I'll never (I hope so anyway) ever have to be in such a situation. :)

Have a good day!

[chidokan]

ah..the luxury of not putting up with that grading rubbish...(dreams wistfully)
The L6 looks an interesting sword to be honest, although I would prefer a direct comparison with traditional materials with expected use ( i.e. I dont put my swords in a vice and bend them...)...its the engineer in me I'm afraid...
In theory the L6 should perform well, although I would be interested in the 'edge chip limitation' method used. Obviously with modern smithing methods and materials knowledge I would expect superior results from the forging process. Do you know how much the blanks go for? I wouldnt mind building one up if they are not too expensive just to see the differences...

[Dan Shea]

ah..the luxury of not putting up with that grading rubbish...(dreams wistfully)
The L6 looks an interesting sword to be honest, although I would prefer a direct comparison with traditional materials with expected use ( i.e. I dont put my swords in a vice and bend them...)...its the engineer in me I'm afraid...
In theory the L6 should perform well, although I would be interested in the 'edge chip limitation' method used. Obviously with modern smithing methods and materials knowledge I would expect superior results from the forging process. Do you know how much the blanks go for? I wouldnt mind building one up if they are not too expensive just to see the differences...
I think the unpolished finished L6 blade without fittings is like ~$3200.
A fully finished L6 through bugei.com is ~$7200 and the wait is around a year or more! :O

I have no idea how much a blank would go for, but you'd have to give it a hot salt bath like Howard does to get the tempering correct.

I agree that some of the deflection tests done were kind of silly. I understand their marketing need, but as a practical test I didn't see the point.

I'm more interested in nihonto personally because of the artistic attributes, not that the L6 is ugly or anything, it just doesn't float my boat.

Have nice day!

[IsahoNaginata]

Best Steel for Weapons = Damascus Steel that has Pattern Welded.

You can see examples on the Salamander Armoury website. Dr Hrousoulas (sp?) is a world renowned swordsmith and his work is amazing; one of the best sword metallurgists around. Unfortunately he has absolutely no interest in producing any sort of asian weapon.

I know because I asked. :)

I would love to have a katana and a naginata with those beautiful patterns in the steel that he can accomplish with his damascus steel. So stunningly gorgeous.

[Takamatsu]

Hello from Japan I am Togishi (Japanese sword polish) I was reading what you have written about japanese swords. Today their are almost 300 swordsmiths in Japan making gendiato (modern sword) these swords are made in the traditional japanese way they have been made for 800 years. I am deshi to a swordsmith now and am learning this art. I also practice bato and use a bizen style gendiato. Tim is very right in Japan a good gendiato or even an unsigned edo blade can be purchased for 250,000 to 500,000 Yen. For cutting I think a kiyomaru or Kotetsu would be very great but these are treasures. Ii Ichi Niichi yo have a good day.

[Hisham]

How about the maker of this sword (http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/norimitsu.html)? JShmidt started a thread about that pic at the Kendo media section of the board

[chidokan]

Hi Takamatsu,
do you know of any smiths in the Kyoto area I could visit and watch? I will be over in May/June and its something I have been interested in doing for a while. Also any saya, tsuka, or tsuba/fittings makers there? I am an engineer so I also find it interesting to see forging, as I used to do this when I was a very young apprentice (yes to my students, before you all start joking I too was young once! :D )

[Takamatsu]

Hello Tim I am visiting Nara/Kyoto the last week of shigatsu I do not personally now any tosho there but I know there are many thing to do wth nihonto in Kyoto. But most swordmakers need introduction before they let someone watch. I have a good video of my sensei but I do not have copys now. I will look for shops for you and maybe I can help.

Takamatsu Kenshin

[chidokan]

thanks very much for the help! One of my friends collects swords and lives in Kyoto, so I am hoping he will know some saya makers. I have to repair old iaito sometimes so it would be helpful to see this done correctly. Have a good trip to Kyoto!

[ninjamster15]

oo i seeee... but why use swords in WWII... when they'll just fill you up with lead while you're charging at them... Maybe if you ran outa bullets you could use the sword but i think a little knife would be more convenient to carry

swords were only used by officers, and they were only drawn when the officer would lead a charge against american troops. if a soldier saw this, he was supposed to target that solider first for two reasons.
1. he was the leader; if he dies, the rest of the unit falls apart and retreats
2. even though they were of poor quality, the katana could do massive damage at close quarters. i've seen training videos from wwii where they showed an officer slicing through machine gun barrels with a katana...

[ninjamster15]

i'm not sure who made the best type of swords...but i do know that masamune swords are incredibly rare (feel free to roll your eyes here). They're rare because in the 1500's the shogun cut himself while using a masamune blade. instead of admitting to his mistake, he said that masamune blades were cursed (hence why they're known as the tokugawa bane) and ordered all masamune swords to be collected and melted down into nails. Most of the surviving masamune blades are tantos because they were easy to conceal. Longswords are incredibly rare...i think all of the surviving blades are currently in private collections/museums..

[Gregory]

oo i seeee... but why use swords in WWII... when they'll just fill you up with lead while you're charging at them... Maybe if you ran outa bullets you could use the sword but i think a little knife would be more convenient to carry

knifes mean you have to be right next to the person with the pistol.
Plus you cant hack away crowds of people using the knife

[chidokan]

the use of the sword in modern times is quite interesting. There were squads of swordsmen in the russo-japanese war, and it was noted that if they got within forty yards of the enemy unit they would destroy it. For close quarters combat in theory a sword is better than a rifle (spear) as you merely have to get past the point once it runs out of bullets. The question is... how often can a gun run out of bullets? You are on the front line, involved in a fire fight, using ammo at a certain rate, and need resupply. This may only take place once a night, so you could be caught short as it were. However there is also the fear factor involved. The british army determined that out of a unit of men, one or two will shoot to kill, two or three will fire blindly, and the rest hide until its safe to move until they are accustomed to firefights.
If you see a screaming loonie rushing at you with a sword, you have limited options. Shoot him, (if you remember you have a gun), freeze and hope he goes away, fight with a bayonet, or run away. For those who do kendo you may have experienced that the first time in armour and your first recieved attack. Note as time goes on you get used to it. I have often seen old war documentaries where an old soldier says the 'banzai style' charge is scary, but after a few times you get used to it and just shoot. Good training will overcome most problems, so I'd take the gun. (although I'd want my sword as a backup :D )

[Gregory]

or you can something like the magnoit line all over the place

[Charles Mahan]

i've seen training videos from wwii where they showed an officer slicing through machine gun barrels with a katana...

Have you now. I suspect the community as a whole would like to know exactly how we can see this training video. This is generally accepted to be pure myth. If you have video of this, or know where we could the video, or at least provide some form of lead that could be trace down... That would be something.