Ronin and Bushido

[IsahoNaginata]

Apparently it was a ronin - one of Japan's most famous ronin in fact - who is responsible for the existence of bushido. His name was Yamaga Soko and he is known as one the three great ronin of the Tokugawa period, the other two being Yui Shosetsu and Kumazawa Banzan.

So the samurai got bushido because of a ronin. I am not particularly surprised and more than a little entertained, especially given the common historical belief that the ronin were honorless mercenaries who did not live by bushido. Just a cool piece of history. I could elaborate more but I do not have the time. :)

[aru-ma]

When did ronin came to be seen as an honorless samurai? as far as I know and heard ronin were just masterless samurai, nothing about them being dishonorable :confused:

[Khabbi]

Im not sure on that fact , that Yamaga Soko created Bushido .

Everything ive heard and read is that the Bushido was created to controle the samurai who were getting "the sack" because that there were so few wars during the edo period . or any wars at all

I checked "Yamaga Soko " at samurai-archives.com and dident find anything

when was the Tokugawa period ? .

even if this is true , just because a ronin wrote the bushido doesent mean all obayed it , And ive never read anything that said that ronin were all criminals and stuff .

where did you get this information ?

[Khabbi]

Ups ! my bad . Teaches me to read all the facts befor i say somthing , sorry
IsahoNaginata ,

corection , he did write it , Tokugawa period was in the edo period .

but .. i stand for the other stuff , coz its true lol

back to the batcave

[IsahoNaginata]

The ronin were regarded as highly dishonorable samurai because by their very nature they did not bow to the Shogunate. Because they were masterless they were accountable to no man save themselves and so the cultural belief was that ronin (wave men) were unpredictable and that their honor could not be trusted.

It did not help that the Shogunate detested the ronin because they could not be easily controlled, especially since many of the more renowned ronin stated that the Emperor should be regarded above the Shogunate (which was the theory but not the practice during that period of Japanese history).

The honor of a Samurai came - in large part - from having a master. Therefore, any samurai who did not have a master was considered dishonorable. Not by action but by reputation. Remember: in feudal japanese society honor had as much if not more to do with reputation as it did with personal deeds.

[Khabbi]

"The ronin were regarded as highly dishonorable samurai because by their very nature they did not bow to the Shogunate"

The whole samurai cast was in work from 700AD too 1868AD , there werent shogunates during all those times , but samurai still lost their lords , so the above statment isent true .

"It did not help that the Shogunate detested the ronin because they could not be easily controlled,"

thats why they created and adopted the bushido , but that wasent until the Edo period (1603-1867)

Ronin still had alot of respect ( unless they did somthing wrong and became ronin thanks to that )

[aru-ma]

I checked "Yamaga Soko " at samurai-archives.com and dident find anything .


There are some things you can't find in samurai-archives, most of their stuff are pre edo, though I can't find a detailed info on Sanada Yukimura.


The whole samurai cast was in work from 700AD too 1868AD , there werent shogunates during all those times , but samurai still lost their lords , so the above statment isent true .


Not quite sure about that either, before the Tokugawa shogunate the Ashikaga were recognized by the emperor, although it was't exactly called shogun.

[aru-ma]

oh wait I was wrong it was called the Ashikaga shogunate (1305-1597) so historically Japan had only two shogunate with a really big gap in the middle of each

[Neil Gendzwill]

The origin of Bushido is a little more complex than someone just writing it down. See here (http://koryu.com/library/kfriday2.html) for a full explanation.

[Dr. Hellsing]

this may sound stupid...but whats a ronin?

[IsahoNaginata]

[thats why they created and adopted the bushio]


Actually, the original texts that led to the creation of bushido were developed to keep samurai from growing lazy and corpulent during times of peace; to give them something to do and adhere to while their military careers were on hold. It had little to do with controlling anyone at the time; again it was initially developed by a ronin and first adopted by the famous 47 Ronin.

And even before the Shogunate there were the daimyo and all other sorts of feudal lords. The effect was the same. I have no clue where you are getting this idea that ronin were respected; they may have been respected by rural locals in some instances but the samurai caste and nobility had no respect for them and they were therefore dishonorable. Likewise the ronin also had he right of execution and could kill in that fashion without accountability so even then they were almost never trusted.

Where are you getting this idea that ronin were respected or believed to be honorable?

And to answer another question: ronin - or wave men - were members of the samurai caste who did not posess a master. Many claimed to serve the Emperor but that was rarely enough in the eyes of the daimyo or shoguns. They were often mercenaries, political upstarts, or any other number of roles that the very ordered Japanese society did not appreciate.

[litige]

this may sound stupid...but whats a ronin?

Ask KendoRonin! hahahahahah I'm so funny.... By the way, where is he??

[JimB]

From what I have read they were more feared than despised although the two emotions seem to go hand in hand when reading about their exploits in Japanese history. Here are a few quotes from a book I am reading.


... the ronin formed an active and numerous class of warriors during the entire span of the Tokugawa dictatorship. The progressive elimination of those large and ancient clans which the Tokugawa considered unreliable resulted in a rapid increase in the number of ronin. Stalking the countryside and lurking in the cites, these bitter men, whose weapons were theirs by both law and custom, were forced by circumstances develop a certain independence of mind if they were to survive. In time, a number of these errant warriors took a definite liking to this more difficult but generally more exciting mode of existence, which taxed thier wits and imagination to the fullest and forced them to mature further than was generally the norm at that time.

... As a class their fighting potential was acknowledged repeatedly by the best militay leaders in the land. Even the huge armies of Ieyasu could do very little against the groups of ronin who had lost their property after the battle of Sekigahara and had subsequently been hired by Hideyori to defend his Osaka castle. They proved to be indomitable foes, due to both their skill and their hatred of Ieyasu and his forces.

.. These sulking warriors were a problem in the mass and as individuals. In groups, they proved what they could do against bakufu forces at Shimabara, when they rushed to join the peasants of Arima and Amakusa, who were revolting against their provincial governors. It took the bakufu months of intense warfae and a prolonged seige involving more than fifty thousand warriors, as well as the contribution of Dutch warships with their powerful guns, to crush the insurrection.
-- From the book "The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan"

Not a nice group of people and most definietly a group you didn't want mad at you.

[Shido]

BTW JimB, you live in Charlotte, will you be participating in the regional tournament there in october?

[Zaphiel]

this may sound stupid...but whats a ronin?
a ronin is a samurai whos lord died/dismissed the samurai
ronins wander through the land and try to get into the sevice of a new lord or they challenge every kenjutsu/budo school on their way to become better fighters.

[Usagi San]

The origin of Bushido is a little more complex than someone just writing it down. See here (http://koryu.com/library/kfriday2.html) for a full explanation.
Aleluhia, some wise information about the topic. Man, you rock.

[PoP animexeon]

The 47 ronin got Bushido ( The living of warrior ). In spite of the dead of the master of the 47 ronin master, they still respected in the son of his master. In the first time, they heard news about his master died. They wanted to die following his master with seppuku (similar to hara-kiri).When they were going to do something they would ask themselves “It’s will be good for their master family”. So, in my opinion, they still lived with honor and be loyal for their master. Even though, the 47 ronin were masterless. They were accountable to no man save themselves, they didn’t want to receive donation from anyone . They used their treasure to restore his master family. Furthermore, they find the way to revenge for the master. Even though, it took a long time to plan and do it but they stuck together and respected in their leader.
Consequently, although the 47 ronin were masterless but they still had a lot of loyalty to the master and they were regarded as highly honorable as samurai. Why did ronin still have loyalty with his/her master?

[PoP animexeon]

The 47 ronin got Bushido ( The living of warrior ). In spite of the dead of the master of the 47 ronin master, they still respected in the son of his master. In the first time, they heard news about his master died. They wanted to die following his master with seppuku (similar to hara-kiri).When they were going to do something they would ask themselves “It’s will be good for their master family”. So, in my opinion, they still lived with honor and be loyal for their master. Even though, the 47 ronin were masterless. They were accountable to no man save themselves, they didn’t want to receive donation from anyone . They used their treasure to restore his master family. Furthermore, they find the way to revenge for the master. Even though, it took a long time to plan and do it but they stuck together and respected in their leader.
Consequently, although the 47 ronin were masterless but they still had a lot of loyalty to the master and they were regarded as highly honorable as samurai. Why did ronin still have loyalty with his/her master?

[Yakaji]

The 47 ronin are still well-celebrated throughout Japan. There are at least two memorials to them, one at their grave site in Sengaku-ji.

Bushido, though, is mostly an after-the-fact invention that sprang up, as others have mentioned, in the Edo period when samurai were in decline and the merchant class rising to new prominence; like Nihonjinron literature, a way to make the samurai feel like they still held a special place, even though they no longer had the same social power they once had wielded.

That's not to say samurai weren't honorable, but it's not necessarily to say they were any more honorable than any other warrior stereotype either. A lot of lore grew up around them in the centuries when they ruled Japan, some of it true and some of it exaggerated. The Hagakure itself wasn't written until after the incident with the 47 ronin, and was primarily the creation of someone two generations removed from the constant warring of the Momoyama period, before the Tokugawa shogunate (Edo period) began.

But just because it wasn't formulated doesn't mean the sentiments didn't exist prior to that point.