Zekken, Names and Kanji

[IsahoNaginata]

So I was reading the Zekken thread and something was brought up that I still find really weird whenever I encounter it. It has to do with names and how non-japanese names are translated into Japanese.

It seems like translation is based strictly on sounds. So my name (Emily) becomes Emiri according to most people involved in name translation. But my own personal feelings on this are that sound-based translation are neither accurate nor desirable and that translations should be done based on meaning instead.

A name is a word with a specific meaning attached to it. Emily means 'Eager' for instance so when I translate my name to Japanese I feel it would be better to use whichever Japanese name means the same. Since Japanese names seem to typically consist of two Kanji characters I would probably tag on 'ko' or some such to end of it and wind up with a name that means 'Eager Girl'

Of course, I have not done enough kanji research to figure this out yet. But does this make sense to anyone else? The translation of name based on meaning rather than sound? I just think the meaning of a name holds far more importance than the sound of it.

And don't even try to translate 'Rathwaedht' (my surname) based on sound. It is just not going to happen. :-)

[Chopstix]

I think the problem with that argument is that, if you're able to find the kanji equivalent of "Eager", then Japanese kendokas may think that your name is pronounced according to whatever kanji assigned to form "eager", and not the closest equivalent in pronounciation to "Emily". Obviously you're free to assign whatever kanji you want to get the meaning of "eager", though as far as I understand, zekken is intended to be a form of identification. I'm sure you're known as Emily, not "Eager" right?

My position can be distinguished from yours. I'm a chinese, so my surname is already in chinese. Unfortunately, there is no kanji equivalent to that chinese letter, so I'm torn between putting my chinese surname or the katakana equivalent (in pronounciation) on the zekken. Both are my names, though the former cannot be identified by Japanese kendokas.

[xvikingx]

Emily,
I would stay away from translating your name into kanji. The whole point of the zekken is so that you can be identified; putting your name in kanji would be like playing pictionary. Personally I don't see the point of even writting your name in Japanese characters if you live outside of Japan, but that's just the way it is. Emily would be like: エミリー　I think. If you tell me how to pronounce Rathwaedht, I'd be happy to write that out for you.

[IsahoNaginata]

Well, I guess I do not care so much about sound-based identification since I go by a whole host of names and nicknames anyway. Emily, Em, Emmie, Hex, Jenny Reb, and so on based upon the context of a situation and the group of people that I am associating with at the time. So the idea of being called Setsuko (turns that, or Setsu, would be the meaning-based translation) does not seem like a particularly bad thing to me.

As for Rathwaedht: It is pronounced Wrath Weight. It is a celtic name that you probably are not going to find anywhere in general since it is profoundly rare surname, though it translates roughly to Good Fire or Sacred Fire.

I place a lot of stock and belief in the power of names and their meaning. The meaning of names is very important to me and from what I understand a sound-based interpretation of Emily into Japanese means something like 'A blessed and beautiful village' or what-not depending on the kanji that are being used. And that would be a very far cry from the very simple meaning of 'Eager'

Translating based on sound just seems hollow or empty to me. :-/

[Yowai]

wow subject been, to death... i dont see the point of anyone repli to anything i feel silly to have even tried, nanbanjin was diferent , he did change
i thought you said you read the thread???!!11 why oh why, why.., did not you understand a thing, you must be joking

you bloke joke you missed the opint altogether, you must be some kind of a idiot????/ , zekeen kanji etc why wont thee people get the point

get it in english ok???????????///i cant even thing up enough strnegh to even summonn a arguemeent for this idiotic subject go rereaad the damnbn thread again ok you will understand and you willl

[Chopstix]

Wow Yowai I'll have what you're having! :D

[Yowai]

you dont understand
i was retarded to...,,,, start and i am retarded now
i communcication better, with peopl eon thiss forum and internet ,in genearl if i talk like a retard

.........

[IsahoNaginata]

Uhmm... what? o_O

I would get my name printed in English. It seems to be pretty standard practice to do so with at least some of the schools around here. But there are schools that prefer to go with kanji over english alphabet and such. And ultimately it is just a language issue though in some cases it has the possibility of turning into a gross case of cultural appropriation by ignorant and uneducated white people (as in: "OMG! I totally have a sensei now annd I beat people up with sticks, they're called shinai! Isn't that cool!? It's just like that anime RealBout Highschool! But without all the crazy energy stuff and crap... Dude I'm like totally a Samurai now!").

Different schools have different language preferences. I personally would prefer a school that uses english because that is my native language and the language of my culture. In my Wu Shu school the teachers are Coaches and not Sifu like many self-described "kung-fu masters" claim. Likewise the school is just a school.

I personally do not make use of words such as sensei unless I am using it as an honorific. I would much rather say "My teacher, Mikuni-Sensei" than "My sensei, Cathy Mikuni" or what-not. But if I were in a situation where Kanji was expected of me I would go with meaning rather than sound. Fortunately for me the schools around her use english. :-)

I just think sound-based translation is weird.

[Khabbi]

Isent the way we spell japanes names and things soundbased ?

I would feel wierd calling friends named Yoshi ( lets say it means "small bird on fire " ) small bird on fire .

example " hey YO-SHI , come over here a sec "
" Hey Small bird on fire , come over here a sec "

make any sense at all ? lol

[IsahoNaginata]

Hmm. I guess that makes sense. It is the same thing in Pinyin really, too. And the fact that I did not see a problem with it when I was studying Pinyin... hmm, okay now I'm thinking about weird ideas.

But yes, that makes sense. As much as I would love to call someone "Small Bird on Fire" periodically. Maybe I can get away with calling my boyfriend that or some such the next time I yell his name across a room. :)

[misterkurukuru]

If i translated my english first name into japanese it would be ojisama or something like that(and that sounds pretty stupid). If I transted my japanese name into english it would be dragon boy!!!! uhh just right rasuueito
in kata kana, then everyone wont think that emily is your last name.

[IsahoNaginata]

Rathwaedht becomes Rasuueito? Ergh... I'll stick with english. It's not like people know how to pronounce in English either. :p

[Hai_hai]

So I was reading the Zekken thread ...

A name is a word with a specific meaning attached to it. Emily means 'Eager' for instance so when I translate my name to Japanese I feel it would be better to use whichever Japanese name means the same...

Apparently, you read the Zekken thread but didn't get it.
Your name is Emily but you don't write Eager, do you?
Pardon my French but get your head out of your a$$ and reread the entire Zekken thread.

[Shiro]

Apparently, you read the Zekken thread but didn't get it.
Your name is Emily but you don't write Eager, do you?
Pardon my French but get your head out of your a$$ and reread the entire Zekken thread.

Why are you so frickin' pissed every time there's a thread about zekken? :)

Ok, it might look dumb to use kanji or even to translate one's name to japanese, but it's no big deal.
I'm getting a zekken too and my name wiil be in both english and japanese on it, wether you like it or not ;).

Besides, all the members of my dojo wear the same style of zekken, so why pick another style?

my zekken would look like this:
__________
|BUTOKUKAN|
| |
| Name |
| In |
| Kana |
| |
| |
| BIANCHIN |
-----------

[Shiro]

crap, the spacings disappeaed during posting :D

[mingshi]

Unfortunately, there is no kanji equivalent to that chinese letter, so I'm torn between putting my chinese surname or the katakana equivalent (in pronounciation) on the zekken. Both are my names, though the former cannot be identified by Japanese kendokas.
What makes you think there is no kanji equivalent??!?!

If they can't read, tell them to watch less TV and read the newspaper. The name of the president of Taiwan is written in everywhere.

[itazura]

Let's get this straight, its called a nafuda, not zettken. If you want to wear a zettken then you should enter a footrace or something.

And this is the same old tired arguments and insults by the same old people.

[IsahoNaginata]

Geeze, I'm sorry that I started a thread so many people are so incensed about. It seems like a really silly thing to get pissed over but if that's what riles your feathers than fine. I apologize.

[litige]

Emily may means eager, but eager does not mean emily.

[itazura]

Emily,

Put whatever you want on your nafuda and don't worry about what people here have to say.

The way the Japanese use english they have little room to say anything to anybody.


www.engrish.com

[Kendoka]

Emily,

Put whatever you want on your nafuda and don't worry about what people here have to say.

The way the Japanese use english they have little room to say anything to anybody.


www.engrish.com

I agree - the IKF refer to the name tag worn by kendoka as nafuda.

If "eager" is not desired what about "Eiga"?

See http://www.auskf.info/Temporary%20pages/12th_WKC_Album/12thWorldKendoChampionships%20version%201/DSC00097%20(2).html

[Musha]

Hi Emily,

Do you know that you can not use Emily on your Zekken because you must use your last name not first.

I recently went to Japan for a few weeks and did a shiai. I used the meaning of my last name Hewitt that means wood cutter in big Kanji then in Katakana phonetics at the bottom on my zekken, so when it came to adding my name to the score board some one could look at my zekken and immediately add my name as Hyu-itto. If you added some crazy kanji like you wanted the sensei would probably think that was too stupid to add to the score bored and ask what your real name was. Then after that try to think what that would be in Katakana phonetics.
Lastly people would have to keep asking you if by chance there were more girls doing kendo that day "Hello are you Emily? are you Emily?" and it would mean a lot of trouble.

P.s Nafuda means name plate. People have a little nafuda plaque on there walls out side there house. Zekken sounds much better unless you do have a metal plaque on your zekken that is :D.

[Chopstix]

What makes you think there is no kanji equivalent??!?!

If they can't read, tell them to watch less TV and read the newspaper. The name of the president of Taiwan is written in everywhere.
Perhaps I didn't convey myself sufficiently. As I understand it, not all chinese characters were incorporated in Japan as "kanji". Accordingly, there are chinese characters which the japanese wouldn't be able to recognise. My sister, who is studying japanese in uni, confirmed that our family name has to be written in katakana (and her sensei confirmed it too) because of this. But I suppose I can adopt the I-don't-care attitude and put it on my zekken anyway. Too bad they can't recognise it that's all.

[jmarsten]

P.s Nafuda means name plate. People have a little nafuda plaque on there walls out side there house. Zekken sounds much better unless you do have a metal plaque on your zekken that is :D.[/QUOTE]

The official designation of the name placard worn on the tare is nafuda. This was adopted by the AJKF and the IKF because the term zetkin/zekken/zetken refers to a numerical identification such as competitors wear in various other sports.
Jeffrey Marsten Director IKF 1997-2003

[Chopstix]

There you have it folks - straight from the horse's mouth!

[IsahoNaginata]

Well, if I want people to be able to pronounce my last name I should just spell it phonetically on the nafuda then, shouldn't I? The majority of people who speak english as their native language can't pronounce 'Rathwaedht' sooo... hm.

I guess I will just put 'Rathwaedht' on it and correct people whenever they mess it up like I always have to do. English, Japanese, whatever. I think I am just cursed to always have it mispronounced. :)

[Hai_hai]

Why are you so frickin' pissed every time there's a thread about zekken? :)


You don't get it, do you?
It's not just English, but Greek, Cyrillic, French, German, and whatever other languages are out there. If you are Russian, you translate your Russian last name into the way it would be pronounced using katakana, not the Kanji equivalent of the meaning of the Russian name.

Way too many of you foreigners out there are into the romanticism of being some kind of ronin samurai.

[Shiro]

You don't get it, do you?
It's not just English, but Greek, Cyrillic, French, German, and whatever other languages are out there. If you are Russian, you translate your Russian last name into the way it would be pronounced using katakana, not the Kanji equivalent of the meaning of the Russian name.

Way too many of you foreigners out there are into the romanticism of being some kind of ronin samurai.

I get your point, don't worry. I just consider it's no big deal. If they look foolish wearing their kanji zekken it's their problem, not ours.

[mingshi]

Accordingly, there are chinese characters which the japanese wouldn't be able to recognise. My sister, who is studying japanese in uni, confirmed that our family name has to be written in katakana (and her sensei confirmed it too) because of this.
Tell the Japanese to read more newspaper. :disapp:

陳氏が立候補届け出－台湾総統選

　【台北４日時事】台湾の陳水扁総統と呂秀蓮副総統は４日、台北市内の中央選挙委員会に出向き、３月の総統 選挙の立候補届け出を行った。与野党一騎打ちとなる今回の総統選では、再選を目指す陳陣営に対し、野党側は 連戦国民党主席、宋楚瑜親民党主席が正副総統候補のペアを組んで出馬する。　（時事通信）

from here:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20040204-00000829-jij-int

[IsahoNaginata]

[Way too many of you foreigners out there are into the romanticism of being some kind of ronin samurai]

You know, first of all I would never dream of appropriating anyone's culture in that way. It is ridiculous not to mention fetishistic in a bizarre sort of way.

But on the other hand: What is UP with all this 'Foreigner' crap? I thought that one of the points of the internet was that it crosses geographic boundaries and that there are no 'Foreigners' on it. I mean honestly, from what I understand words like 'Foreigner' and Gaijin are intended to be pretty damn insulting.

Imagine if I called every Japanese person walking down the street a 'Foreigner' regardless? I would be called out on that stuff awful quick. My own culture has similar words such as Kaaje and I refuse to use those too. It is just... so ridiculous.

[Dan Shea]

Try not to get too upset Emily.
There are plenty of people who seem to think they are the sole guardians of their ancient cultures :rolleyes:

Put whatever you want on your zekken / nafuda. Kanji, katakana, ancient sanskrit, etc. I never understood the big deal everyone makes out of it. It is a modern convention for the purpose of competition and really has little to do with budo.

I'd be more concerned about my technique and less concerned about how pretty I look with my gold colored zekken with red pinstripes and my name embroidered in ancient egyptian heiroglyphics with blue leds. :)

If people can find a way to be petty they will be. It is the nature of man.

[Chopstix]

Tell the Japanese to read more newspaper. :disapp:

陳氏が立候補届け出－台湾総統選

　【台北４日時事】台湾の陳水扁総統と呂秀蓮副総統は４日、台北市内の中央選挙委員会に出向き、３月の総統 選挙の立候補届け出を行った。与野党一騎打ちと なる今回の総統選では、再選を目指す陳陣営に対し、野党側は連戦国民党主席、宋楚瑜親民党主席が正副総統候 補のペアを組んで出馬する。　（時事通信）

from here:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20040204-00000829-jij-int
Hmm...that's interesting... I can recognise my surname 陳 in there. Thanks for the heads-up!

[JSchmidt]

"It is a modern convention for the purpose of competition and really has little to do with budo."

Purpose of competition?. Well, if that's the only time where you practice outside your normal dojo, I guess you could look at it that way, but I find it highly valuable when practicing in other places and countries than what you are used to.

[Dan Shea]

Show me that a nafuda is not a modern covention and I'll be more than happy to retract the statement.

Normally when practicing at a foreign dojo a letter of introduction or speaking with the dojo's sensei is all I've ever seen required.

Now as far as having another kendoka recognize you because your name is emblazoned on your bogu, yes, a nafuda is helpful.

I'm trying to recall if nafuda were used prior to the 1950's. I haven't seen evidence that this is the case, but I'm more than happy to be corrected. If you have proof of this please advise, otherwise I'll continue thinking it is and was used after WWII as a means of identifying kendoka in competition primarily and when visiting foreign dojo's it is helpful, but not the main thrust of invention.

Thanks and good night!

[Dan Shea]

Ack, once again I find myself replying to myself. I apologize. Perhaps I misread your statement, but I suppose I should try and at least clarify myself.

I agree with you that nafuda/zekken are extremely useful when visiting foreign dojo (i.e. - be it down the block or in Tokyo) I believe (and please correct me if I am wrong) that they came into common use after competition between dojos became common. I can't seem to find info on this. Bogu itself is relatively "modern" (if we are to discusss koryu and JSA in general.)

I'd like to find more info on the subject, but English resources are quite limited in the matter. Kendo for me is only part of my weekly routine. At home it is mostly paired kata and suburi mixed in with some Iaido practice. And perhaps 1 hour out of our 2 hour dojo sessions is spent actually doing kendo. The first half is paried kata and Iai kata. At modern kendo dojos I believe you guys spend almost all of your time in bogu so the nafuda plays a greater role in identifying people?

Although one would assume those who regularly attend a dojo know each other in and out of bogu, I guess maybe if your dojo is large enough that is not the case. I've always likened the nafuda to the number one would wear on a jersey for sake of a better analogy. Since I do not participate in tournaments and rarely have opportunity to practice at other dojo, my nafuda is kind of superfluous.

It does bring up a funny situtation I shall soon find myself in though. My nafuda will bear Haga Dojo on it as I practice here in Chicago at Haga Dojo. But Haga Dojo is located in Tokyo. So when I go to visit I'm quite sure alot of people will question who the gaijin with the Haga Dojo nafuda is. :)

That is why my sensei has been kind enough to say he will give me a letter of introduction and speak with the sensei there prior to my visit. So again, the situation is kind of unique.

I suppose my unique situation has unfortunately led me to be negligent in looking at other viewpoints and if I am wrong, I sincerely apologize to those I may have offended with the comment, but it seems to me the nafuda's place is primarily to serve as an identifier in competition.

Does anyone have any solid info on this to set this wayward student on the right path?

I thank everyone again for their patience and kindness, along with the tolerance I have received thus far. This board is interesting and I have been enjoying immensely the ability to converse with kendoka all over the world about martial concepts pertaining to the JSA.

Have a good night!

[JSchmidt]

"Show me that a nafuda is not a modern covention and I'll be more than happy to retract the statement."

Show me where I said it was?

It'ss invaluable when practicing at new places or with new people, especially when you want to speak with whomever you practiced with afterwards (be it teacher or otherwise). Trust me on this. I can't count the amount of times I've talked to a sensei after practice where they will glance at my zekken to remind themselves who I were.
(And they will *always* pronounce the katakana, not the romanji, which is why using kanji is also a bad idea).
As for having the dojo-name of a Japanese dojo, I encountered the same when I was last in Japan,as our standard zekkens have 'rembuden' written in kanji on it. (also read as 'rembukan'), which also happens to be a famous dojo in Kyushu. Don't sweat it..they will most likely realise that you are from abroad.

[Dan Shea]

Thanks for the reply.
My nafuda is in Kanji, as I use my wife's last name on it, so they'll have a choice of the romaji or the kanji, no katakana. :)

Anyway, I'm off to practice tonight (still sore from Tuesday)
Hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable day and I'll see ya around the forum!

[Curtis]

Show me that a nafuda is not a modern covention and I'll be more than happy to retract the statement.

Normally when practicing at a foreign dojo a letter of introduction or speaking with the dojo's sensei is all I've ever seen required.

Now as far as having another kendoka recognize you because your name is emblazoned on your bogu, yes, a nafuda is helpful.

I'm trying to recall if nafuda were used prior to the 1950's. I haven't seen evidence that this is the case, but I'm more than happy to be corrected. If you have proof of this please advise, otherwise I'll continue thinking it is and was used after WWII as a means of identifying kendoka in competition primarily and when visiting foreign dojo's it is helpful, but not the main thrust of invention.

Thanks and good night!
I have a video of a historical broadcast about kendo produced in Japan about kendo in the 1920s and 1930s. It shows the great kendo people of the day in the Emperor’s Cup and perhaps a couple other tournaments. Nowhere to be seen on anyone is a nafuda. The only nafuda I saw is on one of the teachers in a post WWII picture.

This video would indicate that the nafuda is a post WWII item. The IKF rules call for the nafuda at the world tournament to be written in English as most people know.

I used to use a nafuda with English and katakana, but have switched to an English only. My feeling is to use the language of where you live. I might use my mixed one when I go to Japan, but didn’t bother last time I went.

[Dan Shea]

I have a video of a historical broadcast about kendo produced in Japan about kendo in the 1920s and 1930s. It shows the great kendo people of the day in the Emperor’s Cup and perhaps a couple other tournaments. Nowhere to be seen on anyone is a nafuda. The only nafuda I saw is on one of the teachers in a post WWII picture.

This video would indicate that the nafuda is a post WWII item. The IKF rules call for the nafuda at the world tournament to be written in English as most people know.

I used to use a nafuda with English and katakana, but have switched to an English only. My feeling is to use the language of where you live. I might use my mixed one when I go to Japan, but didn’t bother last time I went.


Thanks for the info Curtis! BTW what video is it? I know there are a few dvd that have historical footage of kendo demonstrations and some koryu as well. I believe all the footage is from the Showa period.

If you have the title of the video though I'd appreciate it.

Have good day!

[Curtis]

As I recall it was produced and/or shown on NHK. I would have to check on the title. I copied it from someone that had brought here from Japan.

If you want to see it PM me and if I get some time ( I'm busy for the next 6 Saturdays with kendo and my wife's dancing) I'll make a copy. The quality will be so-so since it will be 3rd generation at least. It has all the big names in it, Mochida, Nakamura, etc.

[Hai_hai]

Right, it's just a name tag. So why would you change your name to something that it isn't. A Japanese person who comes to the US or England doesn't get a zekken/nafuda with the translation of the meaning of their name. There are plenty of crazies out there and here who have chosen to get a nafuda with some convoluted translation of their non-Japanese name into kanji. Then, they "feel" complete with their kanji zekken. The katakana version of their last name just doesn't cut it for them.

In Japan, you can get a zekken with colored characters instead of just white characters because there is no such thing as an old-fashioned zekken. I am aware it is not a thing from ancient Japan.

[IsahoNaginata]

"There are plenty of crazies out there and here who have chosen to get a nafuda with some convoluted translation of their non-Japanese name into kanji"

Any Japanese translation/spelling of an English name is probably going to be convoluted or inaccurate. I had might as well just spell it all in English and then insist that they learn how to pronounce my name properly. But then again, that would be rude.

[Hai_hai]

"Any Japanese translation/spelling of an English name is probably going to be convoluted or inaccurate. I had might as well just spell it all in English and then insist that they learn how to pronounce my name properly. But then again, that would be rude.

Wrong. Any translation into kanji will be convoluted. Representation of the English pronunciation in katakana is the way to go. You just don't get it.